Anybody else noticing low power and high power armies of 7th reversing power in 8th?

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**Arandmoor**

Heavy Rail Rifle is Heavy 2. It also deals extra mortal wounds on a 6+ hit roll in an army than can get a +1 to hit rolls with markerlights.

Lascannon is Heavy 1 in an army that relies on weight of numbers to win over almost all else.

You're comparing an apple to an orange and wondering why they're not exactly the same. Try taking some army context into account.

**Dionysodorus**

I'm not saying Broadsides are great but, to be fair, the HRR gets two shots, Broadsides can take other weapons as well as a support system for various advantages, and they're a lot less vulnerable to lascannons because of saviour protocols.

In general my sense is that it is completely intentional that suits look like bad buys compared to facially-comparable options in other indices. The idea is to give Tau these really expensive platforms that have a potentially huge number of ablative wounds via drones. I haven't played as or against Tau in 8th yet so I'm not saying they're not underpowered now, but I don't think the direct comparison between Broadsides and Armored Sentinels makes much sense. Broadsides get about twice the firepower for a little more than twice the cost, and are potentially much, much harder to kill.

**Ascalam**

From what they said the units are supposedly pointed based on their utility and synergy with their army, rather than a direct comparison.

That said, it seems like a pretty big difference there...

**Daedalus81**

Slow down there folks.

A Heavy Rail Rifle is not 'basically a lascannon'. If it were it would be 1 shot, AP3, and not do any mortal wounds.

- On a very basic level it has double the shots, so we're at 40 vs 63.
- It has 1 less S, but 1 more AP. I'm hesitant to call that a draw since there aren't a ton of T8 targets, but lets ignore that anyway.
- 2 * .5 * .167 = 0.167 mortal wounds
-- IG Lascannon vs T7 3+ = 1 * .5 * .666 * .833 = 0.28
-- That means this mortal wound is worth 60% of a lascannon against a rhino or 12 points.
-- Against T8 2+ its worth 15 points.

So we're at 53-ish points. 10 short of GW's calculation. Keep in mind mortal wounds will ignore invulnerable saves.

Shoot Magnus!

20 * 3.14 = 62.8 points... //incorrect
20 * 2.33 = 46.6

That makes the HRR 254% more effective than a lascannon vs Rhinos, Predators, Dreadnoughts, etc.
20 * 2. = 50.8

So perhaps you're left with a 10 to 13 point deficit, because of the way they treat mortal wounds and i'm inclined to not disagree with that.

Said another way - a successful mortal wound on Magnus is worth 2 lascannon shots. The averages are not tremendous, but i'll do a chart a bell curve as soon as I can.

=============================

A 2+ over a 3+ is not insignificant.
A broadside can fly. A sentinel can not.
A broadside can get extra wounds on the cheap.
A sentinel can't do supporting fire.

Are we really doing this?

**Dionysodorus**

Daedalus, I think you forgot that lascannons and HRRs do more than one damage when you fail a save against them. The mortal wounds on the HRR are not that significant unless we're talking about things like Magnus with better than a 4++.

**Rockfish**

A broadside can fly. A sentinel can not.

A broadside does not have fly, and don't forget you can get three armored sentinels for the same cost as a broadside allowing greater survivability.

**Daedalus81**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Daedalus, I think you forgot that lascannons and HRRs do more than one damage when you fail a save against them. The mortal wounds on the HRR are not that significant unless we're talking about things like Magnus with better than a 4++.

Sorry, you're right. Hang on.

**Gamgee**

Boy oh boy people trying to prove the Tau are fine don't even know the rules. *sigh* Love it. No wonder why people seem to think they are so good.

Also drones as ablative wounds only gets them one turn more shooting with the sheer amount of firepower. Also there are no damage upgrades worth taking for them other than the oens to negate move and shoot penalties.

They don't magically get wargear to make their guns stronger. The ATS that adds -1 rend is not a worthwhile buy on this gun and that is the only thing we have that can modify a weapons strength.

Also even if drones keep them alive from shooting it doesn't keep them out of being charged and killed that way.

Broadsides suck for their cost and you know you can't justify it. Now imagine the whole codex like that.

Supporting fire is the myth of the anti-tau propagandists it barely ever does anything and on a broadside odds are it's two shots and whatever secondary weapons it has won't hit on overwatch. So we're paying massive extra points for abilities that do nothing.

Even if it could run away it's got the overwatch problem where it only hits on a 6. So that means a broadside on average only every other game will it actually hit with a single shot or possibly two.

Wow man the unreliable potential for 1 damage every other game is apparently worth 60 points.

On paper the stats of most Tau things look fine, but it's the final costs that kill all of them. It's like the Tyranids last edition who had many units simply too expensive and no amount of high stats could matter if the cost was too crazy.

It's like the people in 7th who argued the tyranids had that one good power or weapon and on a 6 it would get extra wounds or something (forget it's name) they said that ability was so good it totally justified the point cost. Yet the Nids were easily bottom tier even with flyrant spam. It's no different now attempting to justify the insane price hikes for abilities that will barely ever trigger.

**Rockfish**

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of Tau stuff is nice on paper but like ~25% more expensive than they are worth. In theory they have synergy with stuff like the +1BS, the problem is we already have to pay for that. For example, to get the +1 on a single unit you must spend 80+ points to just do that.

There are things like just using a gun drone is for a wound is nice, but when you do so there is no save since it is a mortal wound, but I can agree that maybe 8pts is a bit cheap.

**Daedalus81**

Rockfish wrote:

A broadside can fly. A sentinel can not.

A broadside does not have fly, and don't forget you can get three armored sentinels for the same cost as a broadside allowing greater survivability.

You're right - no fly - I keep glancing at the damned drone rules.

It's totally true that you're getting fewer guns as Tau, but this gun is at least twice as effective, can do supporting fire, has access to markerlight, and support systems.

For 8 points each you get to direct a potential lascannon hit and all of it's damage away from the broadside. Also scoring a 5+ vs a lascannon makes it 100% more durable than a sentinel (in that scenario).

**Gamgee**

Markerlights require 5 hits to get a +1BS and in the Tau community it's agreed only bad people don't shoot them first. If your opponent has two brain cells he is hitting your pathfinders and with two full squads wounded you will no longer be able to get +1 BS on both squads on average so you need to pool fire.

There is an entirely wasted level of ML's for shooting seeker missiles which sucks and it only fires at the models BS making them useless and overpriced and no one takes them so now it's a dead entry on the chart.

We are effectively a guardsmen tier shooting and you know it. We get a 1+ BS only once per game on a key target and that's it. After that the odds statistically go so far outside th window the ML units are typically used to distribute reroll 1's to as much as possible and act as ablative wounds since they are useless.

Bringing too much ML's brings down the few points you have for the things that can kill. It's harder than ever to hit that nice synergy of ML's to supporting units that kill things now. Actually almost impossible. With nothing worth supporting with ML's that's cost effective it reduces their value even more.

A lot of Tau players are questioning even bringing ML's anymore and they might very well be a dead thing now. With how insanely everything is costed and the minimal benefit they offer it's better to bring boys before toys in this case.

Smart non dumb opponents attack the drones with chaff stuff first and then hit the broadside with the big stuff. Come now. Use your brain. You went to school. Gun drones also have problems targeting enemies and hitting what you need with precise fire we seen this at the caledonian ets tournament just recently where the drones were simply too inaccurate because of their targeting priorities. It's okay to have some of them, but not too much. Even then when you bring drones you need to have a worthwhile unit to protect with them and we don't have any right now other than the commander.

**Daedalus81**

For 2 damage through 6 damage the HRR is twice as effective.
At 1 damage is it 3.5 (rhino) to 10.7 (Magnus) as effective -- this is the mortal wound effect at play on top of having more accuracy with 2 shots.
As a small bonus it has the chance to do 7 wounds. Anything 8+ is way too insignificant of a value to worry about.

**Gamgee**

No one is saying it isn't a more effective gun, but we're saying it's too expensive. What if a gun in the game existed that did 3d6 damage and on a 6 could instant kill any unit on your opponents army but cost 10k points. Okay great I guess I won't ever get to use it.

**Rockfish**

There is nothing really wrong with any of the main Tau units, its just that they are often too expensive in comparison to other factions or our own units to be worth taking.

**Gamgee**

Rockfish wrote:
There is nothing really wrong with any of the main Tau units, its just that they are often too expensive in comparison to other factions or our own units to be worth taking.

Your right but I feel I need to add this. Nearly any unit no matter how poor it stats could be useful if it's appropriately costed. I said this earlier as well it's not the stats of the units (for the most part) that is the Tau's problem it's the cost.

**Talamare**

Daedalus81 wrote:
For 2 damage through 6 damage the HRR is twice as effective.
At 1 damage is it 3.5 (rhino) to 10.7 (Magnus) as effective -- this is the mortal wound effect at play on top of having more accuracy with 2 shots.
As a small bonus it has the chance to do 7 wounds. Anything 8+ is way too insignificant of a value to worry about.

The point was that *2* Sentinels cost /less/ than half the cost of 1 Broadside
While providing basically vastly more durability and a ton of mobility.

and Armored Sentinels are a ... mediocre choice for IG
or in the words of Polonius

Polonius wrote:
Armored Sentinel
Overall: Casual

While Tau has to RELY on Broadsides.
It's literally one of their BEST Long Range Anti Tank.

So IG Low Tier Stuff = Tau High Tier Stuff.
That's how bad it is.

A Predator will have 4 Lascannons for 200 points
A Hammerhead will have 1 Railgun shot for 200 points

People are asking why Tau players are spamming Melta Monat (Melta Commanders)
It's because the army literally has no real options.

**Gamgee**

Talamare wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
For 2 damage through 6 damage the HRR is twice as effective.
At 1 damage is it 3.5 (rhino) to 10.7 (Magnus) as effective -- this is the mortal wound effect at play on top of having more accuracy with 2 shots.
As a small bonus it has the chance to do 7 wounds. Anything 8+ is way too insignificant of a value to worry about.

The point was that *2* Sentinels cost /less/ than half the cost of 1 Broadside
While providing basically vastly more durability and a ton of mobility.

and Armored Sentinels are a ... mediocre choice for IG
or in the words of Polonius

Polonius wrote:
Armored Sentinel
Overall: Casual

While Tau has to RELY on Broadsides.
It's literally one of their BEST Long Range Anti Tank.

So IG Low Tier Stuff = Tau High Tier Stuff.
That's how bad it is.

A Predator will have 4 Lascannons for 200 points
A Hammerhead will have 1 Railgun shot for 200 points

People are asking why Tau players are spamming Melta Monat (Melta Commanders)
It's because the army literally has no real options.

Yep we're in a similar position to flyrant spam of 7th edition but somehow even worse because that list at least could win some games but the commander list while our best list isn't really doing that great since it simply lacks board presence for capping and the commanders are quite glass cannon. If the Tau are not buffed and we have to live with this and power creep we will easily be in a spot as bad as 7th edition chaos. By buff I mostly mena point tweaks and perhaps a tweak to the ML chart so it's not so hard to get +1 to hit maybe only 4 hits required. Also as long as a target has a ML on it it can have seeker missiles fired at it and just remove that from the chart all together. Skyray's should be able to fire all seeker missiles in the army at their bs for the high cost they have which would bring them some more utility provided the target has a ML on it.

These are the big things I can see right now.

**Daedalus81**

Rockfish wrote:
and don't forget you can get three armored sentinels for the same cost as a broadside allowing greater survivability.

Right 3 sentinels for 180 points and 3 lascannon shots and 3 4+ S5 attacks - 18 t5 3+ wounds.

As noted earlier Broadside with HRR and two plasma rifles comes to 165. Add 20 for 2 marker drones.

Each drone is a bit of a schrodinger's, but we can say with certainty that the attack hit and wounded, so there would still be a 33% chance of saving if it was put on the broadside. So the "real" value of the drone is .666 * 3.5 = 2.3 That makes the broadside come in at 11 wounds versus 18.

As for shooting - the HRR is nearly the equivalent of the 3 sentinels. Add in the two plasma rifles and it easily tips in favor of the broadside. And the HRR has a 12" advantage on the sentinels.

It has a 7% (0 ML) to 10% (5ML) chance to kill one outright each shooting phase (5+ wounds is 12% to 17%). A lascannon has under 2% chance to kill a broadside (and an extra 2% for each fewer wound).
HRR has a 36% chance to do ANY damage (0 ML). An IG lascannon has 11% to do ANY damage (3 of them would be 33%).

There are a lot of factors at play that make this not such a straight comparison.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talamare wrote:

The point was that *2* Sentinels cost /less/ than half the cost of 1 Broadside
While providing basically vastly more durability and a ton of mobility.

120 for 2 sentinels is not less than half of a 185 to 200 point broadside.
They can move, but they'll be hitting on 5s. HRR is unlikely to need to move.

While Tau has to RELY on Broadsides.
It's literally one of their BEST Long Range Anti Tank.

I don't really see taking more than one or two, true.

A Predator will have 4 Lascannons for 200 points
A Hammerhead will have 1 Railgun shot for 200 points

2 shots. A predator degrades. Broadside does not. HRR has range advantage.

People are asking why Tau players are spamming Melta Monat (Melta Commanders)
It's because the army literally has no real options.

I disagree. I think people are looking for the most easily calculated benefit. One that doesn't require accounting for other battlefield factors like range.

**Gamgee**

In the land of turn one charges it doesn't matter how much range the broadside has things are going to get right up in it's face and it can't move effectively to run away. If you want to move and shoot without penalty you need to pay even more points.

The plasma rifle doesn't synergise well with the broadside at all in my experience even in 7th and the same is true in 8th. They are a hold over from when Broadside default could move and shoot no penalties and were taken up the field on their own and also have ML support and good deep striking crisis to support them. The guns were also a lot stronger back then STR 10 and the vehicle pen system was different than now so they were great as you could guarantee some worth while kills with them.

Now however they are slower than ever and the plasma will rarely be a factor since it will only get to shoot when the enemy melee comes in for the kill and the charge of death. Until then the Broadside will mostly just be shooting its hhr unless by chance they have something to plink at with the plasma.

**Talamare**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Talamare wrote:

The point was that *2* Sentinels cost /less/ than half the cost of 1 Broadside
While providing basically vastly more durability and a ton of mobility.
120 for 2 sentinels is not less than half of a 185 to 200 point broadside.
They can move, but they'll be hitting on 5s. HRR is unlikely to need to move.

That's a bit of a brain fart. I meant that 1 with an insanely similar stat line was less than half.

Daedalus81 wrote:
2 shots.

It's definitely straight up 4 shots.

2 Lascannon vs HRR vs Leman Russ
Lascannon - 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 1.94
Heavy Rails - 2 * 1/2 * 1/6 + 2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 3.5 = 1.91

Tho that math tidbit doesn't really matter. Both Weapons are absolutely fine, I'm not trying to say Railguns are weak.
The point is
1 - Tau has only a few Anti Tank Platforms
2 - Those Platforms are insanely expensive
3 - The Anti Tank Weapon themselves are incredibly expensive. (63 points for HRR, 38 points for Railgun)

**Daedalus81**

Gamgee wrote:
In the land of turn one charges it doesn't matter how much range the broadside has things are going to get right up in it's face and it can't move effectively to run away. If you want to move and shoot without penalty you need to pay even more points.

The plasma rifle doesn't synergise well with the broadside at all in my experience even in 7th and the same is true in 8th. They are a hold over from when Broadside default could move and shoot no penalties and were taken up the field on their own and also have ML support and good deep striking crisis to support them. The guns were also a lot stronger back then STR 10 and the vehicle pen system was different than now so they were great as you could guarantee some worth while kills with them.

Now however they are slower than ever and the plasma will rarely be a factor since it will only get to shoot when the enemy melee comes in for the kill and the charge of death. Until then the Broadside will mostly just be shooting its hhr unless by chance they have something to plink at with the plasma.

I'll agree that none of the extra weapons for the broadside make any sense at all. I don't think reducing the cost of the HRR fixes the problem, but if it was S9/10 it might help.

**SilverAlien**

I do find it odd people dislike crisis suits now. Seems like the are a better option than my chaos terminators for deepstriking special weapons, and I've been fairly satisfied with those.

Have we seen much more about orks? I keep seeing people get absolutely thrashed playing as them, or people wiping the floor. I'm curious if they actually have become top tier, or if it's just some occasional luck.

**Rockfish**

The problem with crisis suits is that they are ppw worse then a commander with any weapon, except maybe flamers.

**Daedalus81**

Talamare wrote:

Tho that math tidbit doesn't really matter. Both Weapons are absolutely fine, I'm not trying to say Railguns are weak.
The point is
1 - Tau has only a few Anti Tank Platforms
2 - Those Platforms are insanely expensive
3 - The Anti Tank Weapon themselves are incredibly expensive. (63 points for HRR, 38 points for Railgun)

Yea I can follow that. Are Longstrike and Hammerheads not viable (I realize one shot only and a yet more expensive gun per shot)? Reroll 1s on those would be very beneficial and Longstrike having +1 to wound is pretty tremendous. Seeker missiles on them also seem worthwhile needing only 2 ML and 3+ to hit.

The more I look at Tau the more it feels like they need to alpha strike with big guns and a kauyon and cripple some big items early on.

**SilverAlien**

Oh yeah the difference between 2+ and 4+ is fairly big, and really kinda unique to tau. Unlike most other armies commanders can be really loaded down with guns as well.

So it isn't crisis suits are bad, you just have really strong HQs that overshadow them. That's a good problem to have honestly.

**Talamare**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Talamare wrote:

Tho that math tidbit doesn't really matter. Both Weapons are absolutely fine, I'm not trying to say Railguns are weak.
The point is
1 - Tau has only a few Anti Tank Platforms
2 - Those Platforms are insanely expensive
3 - The Anti Tank Weapon themselves are incredibly expensive. (63 points for HRR, 38 points for Railgun)

Yea I can follow that. Are Longstrike and Hammerheads not viable (I realize one shot only and a yet more expensive gun per shot)? Reroll 1s on those would be very beneficial and Longstrike having +1 to wound is pretty tremendous. Seeker missiles on them also seem worthwhile needing only 2 ML and 3+ to hit.

The more I look at Tau the more it feels like they need to alpha strike with big guns and a kauyon and cripple some big items early on.

Viable is a poor word choice in this instance. Since they are great choices in relation to the state of the Army as a whole. The problem is the state of the army is pretty poor.
Longrails himself is pretty amazing, but that's still only 1 Dude
4Las Predator vs Longrails vs Railside vs Railheads vs Railhead(Longstrike buffed) -- vs a ... I'll be nice to HRR, and say a T7 Tank.
Predator - 4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 5.18
Longrails - 1 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 3.5 + 1 * 5/6 * 1/3 * 2 = 2.98
Railside - 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 2 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 2.5
Railhead(LS) - 1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 1 * 5/6 * 1/6 * 2 = 2.22
Railhead - 1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2 = 1.77

Also, from experience... If you bring multiple Hammerheads, and Longstrike... People will HARD FOCUS Longstrike, and it makes sense to do so.
Considering Longstrike himself is nearly double the effectiveness of a Standard Railhead. Not to mention makes other Railheads 25% stronger.

**Silver144**

Arandmoor wrote:
roddo wrote:Tau arent terrible, but if you hated riptide spam wait until you see commander spam. Everyone wants to take commanders with 4 weapons and bubble wrap them with cheap troops. Seen lists with 8 at 2k points all with fusion blasters. If you dont see them your going to see ghostkeel fill riptides role and tons of drones as well.

IMO, commander spam is going to prove to be extremely overrated. The fact that I haven't seen any battle reports with it being used effectively yet is quite telling since you can, largely, take any crisis suit and very easily do a "counts as" to spam them.

At the end of the day, small-arms fire will pop their bubble-wrap, at which point their total lack of survivability makes them a liability rather than an asset. They're a handful of wounds protected with a poor armor save. Commander spam is a glass cannon tactic, which makes it very, very easy to deal with. You just shoot with the appropriate weapons in the appropriate order. Small arms, then heavy weapons.

Bubblewrapping them? Not going to work. The vaunted "drone squad bubblewrap" will buy you a round at most against a determined opponent because the drones only have a leadership of 6, and the only characters in the Tau army that increase that are ethereals, who will NOT be zooming around the board with your spammed crisis commanders.

Drones are not immune to moral tests, their leadership sucks, and they don't benefit from a commander's leadership.

Silver144 wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:

Tau armies aren't bottom tier by a long shot. When you can buzz around the battlefield with high output battlesuits that don't take a penalty for wimping out of combat and inflict a -2 to hit penalty to all shooting aimed at them you're a far cry from bottom tier. The problem is that Tau players coughed up big bucks and purchased the right suits for 7th which aren't so special in 8th. They'll be back after they save up their pennies for the new hotness.

I will disagree. The only battlesuit tau has is a commander, every other is laughable overpriced. They has to spam gun-drones and 5-man FW squads with shas-ui markerlight for rerolls of one to be semi-competitional. They lose their mobility, markerlights are nerfed to the point, that it is not worth take it in army (outside the single shas-uis and fireblades). We have a guy who refuse to play dron spam and was tabled 1-st turn without moving a single model at 2k point game.

We're going to need to see his list if you're going to make a claim like that.

Any opponent is going to be hard-pressed to kill even a single Ghostkeel in one turn as long as it's protected by a shield generator, much less an entire T'au army that's fielding an appropriate number of infantry units supported by suites (as opposed to using suits to replace infantry, as has been the standard, and which should no longer work)

My big observation for suits in this edition is that a shield generator is nearly a requirement now because of the prevalence of 1d3 damage weapon-spam. Most of it has decent AP values which make crisis armor irrelevant, and the damage makes the multiple wounds you're paying a premium for almost worthless.

Old edition tactics will not work in this edition. This goes for almost every army in the game, but seems to be going double for Tau. You have to actually think about longevity for once.

He had a gunline, 3x broadside, riptide, longstrike, missile commander, 3x missile crisis, 30 fw, and some drones (2x 5 ml drones). Thats all I can remember. His opponent was Ynnary (mostly DE and 600-700 pts clowns). At the end of first eldar turn there was only longstrike and couple drones and fw left, no reason to play further.

I know this list is far from great, but when the new edition hit we playtest every faction we can reach in club and no one was so bad as tau. This guy is punished for taking anything outside the commander and s*ttons of drones and markerlights are totally useless, with 5+ drone's BS you need like 15-20 to get that +1 BS. This is not worth the job. Sure, you can play msu horde FW, but tau infantry is boring as hell. No special weapon, no melee (no pile-in mind play, bread of the new edition), you just stand and throwing the dices. It is dull gameplay wise.

**BrianDavion**

SilverAlien wrote:
I do find it odd people dislike crisis suits now. Seems like the are a better option than my chaos terminators for deepstriking special weapons, and I've been fairly satisfied with those.

Have we seen much more about orks? I keep seeing people get absolutely thrashed playing as them, or people wiping the floor. I'm curious if they actually have become top tier, or if it's just some occasional luck.

I suspect it's a comparitive thing.

**Dakka Wolf**

I know this is a bit vague but I was playing in another bracket myself so I never actually got to see his list and I only got to watch the last part of his first match, can't remember how many Ghostkeels exactly, three or four? Each one had two stealth drone escorts that gave a further -1 penalty to to hit rolls against the Ghostkeels but apparently they only needed to be within six inches of any stealth drone to get their bonus, not just their own like the army name suggested - Intangible Ghostkeels.
A pair of fire warriors, one packing a markerlight weapon that seemed to have a good fifty inches of range, I never actually got to see what the other one did and three HQ suits.

What I saw was him systematically table a Necron player.
What I heard and read in the results was that he managed the same with an AM army and a Space Wolves player from my own club who I consider a better SW player than myself.
The only player he didn't boardwipe was a Daemon player who had luck in his back pocket when the TO announced The Relic and then just kept making invul saves.
I played the Daemon player, I think my Deathwatch might have beaten the Ghostkeels, a combination of the Null psychic power and a stupid amount of Special Ammo put the Daemons in their place - it's also possible I could have lost entire units before I even got in Bolter range.
I'm not saying the Ghostkeel shenanigans are broken but Tau definitely have lists that aren't bottom tier.

**techsoldaten**

Silver144 wrote:
I know this list is far from great, but when the new edition hit we playtest every faction we can reach in club and no one was so bad as tau. This guy is punished for taking anything outside the commander and s*ttons of drones and markerlights are totally useless, with 5+ drone's BS you need like 15-20 to get that +1 BS. This is not worth the job. Sure, you can play msu horde FW, but tau infantry is boring as hell. No special weapon, no melee (no pile-in mind play, bread of the new edition), you just stand and throwing the dices. It is dull gameplay wise.

This. Tau don't seem to be exceptional in any way right now, there are too many cost issues and every army I have seen seems out of whack. Players are having to give up crisis suits, they are having to spam drones with markerlights, they can't fit vehicles in their lists, they have to double up on Fire Warriors, etc.

There's always been a need to change tactics between editions, but it's a huge change this time. I haven't seen any competitive army lists.