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 Rippy wrote:
The only thing I think is currently really broken is Forgeworld. The costing of units is way out in my opinion.

Currently not bringing any more Forgeworld to friendly games.

What FW units do you consider broken?

 Gamgee wrote:
No one is saying it isn't a more effective gun, but we're saying it's too expensive. What if a gun in the game existed that did 3d6 damage and on a 6 could instant kill any unit on your opponents army but cost 10k points. Okay great I guess I won't ever get to use it.

And everyone else is saying that it's fair given the context of the Tau army.

Expensive heavy weapons are the price you pay for having suits that usually fly. For having small arms with 30" ranges and S5. For getting basic infantry with a 4+ save. And for getting access to the best ablative wounds in the game, that can even ignore other armies' sniper rules.

Tau are not IG. The fact that a lascannon costs less than a heavy rail rifle only proves that the two armies are different because this direct-comparison stuff you're trying to pull doesn't work cross-army unless you're Eldar or space marines, and even then it really only works when comparing marines to marines, and eldar to eldar (and sometimes not even then).

Tau are not IG. Congrats. You've proven what the rest of us could only figure out by reading the names of both armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runic wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
The only thing I think is currently really broken is Forgeworld. The costing of units is way out in my opinion.

Currently not bringing any more Forgeworld to friendly games.

What FW units do you consider broken?

Almost all of them, at the moment. Their rules look like they were rushed out the door by a 3rd grader with a box of crayons.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know this is a bit vague but I was playing in another bracket myself so I never actually got to see his list and I only got to watch the last part of his first match, can't remember how many Ghostkeels exactly, three or four? Each one had two stealth drone escorts that gave a further -1 penalty to to hit rolls against the Ghostkeels but apparently they only needed to be within six inches of any stealth drone to get their bonus, not just their own like the army name suggested - Intangible Ghostkeels.
A pair of fire warriors, one packing a markerlight weapon that seemed to have a good fifty inches of range, I never actually got to see what the other one did and three HQ suits.

What I saw was him systematically table a Necron player.
What I heard and read in the results was that he managed the same with an AM army and a Space Wolves player from my own club who I consider a better SW player than myself.
The only player he didn't boardwipe was a Daemon player who had luck in his back pocket when the TO announced The Relic and then just kept making invul saves.
I played the Daemon player, I think my Deathwatch might have beaten the Ghostkeels, a combination of the Null psychic power and a stupid amount of Special Ammo put the Daemons in their place - it's also possible I could have lost entire units before I even got in Bolter range.
I'm not saying the Ghostkeel shenanigans are broken but Tau definitely have lists that aren't bottom tier.

I didn't saw ghostkeels on the table myself yet, but on the paper - it is battlesuit for 168 pts with 2+1d3 meltashots. I don't know, with bs4+ this is not so much, my deepstriking combi- jetpack wolf guards looks better as for me. I mean he will get 2 hits average and his to-hit penalty works only when the enemy is 12', and his drones are only t4 single wound, I can take them down with bolters.

 Arandmoor wrote:


Almost all of them, at the moment. Their rules look like they were rushed out the door by a 3rd grader with a box of crayons.

Disagree, most units actually seem to have decent rules and I haven't seen one that is broken in a way that it would be overpowered to the level of GW Scion Plasma spam, Stormraven spam, Basilisks and the like. Surely there are a few since I won't claim knowing all the FW units rules by head, but there are a few in GW's books all the same.

All the good stuff costs a lot of points. There are errors ofcourse, but I'm talking about something being overpowered only. This ofcourse depends on the context, personally I'm talking about things in a tournament environment. If the most powerful thing someone in a group brings to the table is a basic Predator, then sure, you can consider a 460+ point Y'vahra "broken" - in the competitive meta it's way too expensive to be worth it.

I guess the whole doesn't really mean much in the end, everyone has their own idea of what is "broken."

Silver144 wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:

roddo wrote:Tau arent terrible, but if you hated riptide spam wait until you see commander spam. Everyone wants to take commanders with 4 weapons and bubble wrap them with cheap troops. Seen lists with 8 at 2k points all with fusion blasters. If you dont see them your going to see ghostkeel fill riptides role and tons of drones as well.

IMO, commander spam is going to prove to be extremely overrated. The fact that I haven't seen any battle reports with it being used effectively yet is quite telling since you can, largely, take any crisis suit and very easily do a "counts as" to spam them.

At the end of the day, small-arms fire will pop their bubble-wrap, at which point their total lack of survivability makes them a liability rather than an asset. They're a handful of wounds protected with a poor armor save. Commander spam is a glass cannon tactic, which makes it very, very easy to deal with. You just shoot with the appropriate weapons in the appropriate order. Small arms, then heavy weapons.

Bubblewrapping them? Not going to work. The vaunted "drone squad bubblewrap" will buy you a round at most against a determined opponent because the drones only have a leadership of 6, and the only characters in the Tau army that increase that are ethereals, who will NOT be zooming around the board with your spammed crisis commanders.

Drones are not immune to moral tests, their leadership sucks, and they don't benefit from a commander's leadership.

Silver144 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Tau armies aren't bottom tier by a long shot. When you can buzz around the battlefield with high output battlesuits that don't take a penalty for wimping out of combat and inflict a -2 to hit penalty to all shooting aimed at them you're a far cry from bottom tier. The problem is that Tau players coughed up big bucks and purchased the right suits for 7th which aren't so special in 8th. They'll be back after they save up their pennies for the new hotness.

I will disagree. The only battlesuit tau has is a commander, every other is laughable overpriced. They has to spam gun-drones and 5-man FW squads with shas-ui markerlight for rerolls of one to be semi-competitional. They lose their mobility, markerlights are nerfed to the point, that it is not worth take it in army (outside the single shas-uis and fireblades). We have a guy who refuse to play dron spam and was tabled 1-st turn without moving a single model at 2k point game.

We're going to need to see his list if you're going to make a claim like that.

Any opponent is going to be hard-pressed to kill even a single Ghostkeel in one turn as long as it's protected by a shield generator, much less an entire T'au army that's fielding an appropriate number of infantry units supported by suites (as opposed to using suits to replace infantry, as has been the standard, and which should no longer work)

My big observation for suits in this edition is that a shield generator is nearly a requirement now because of the prevalence of 1d3 damage weapon-spam. Most of it has decent AP values which make crisis armor irrelevant, and the damage makes the multiple wounds you're paying a premium for almost worthless.

Old edition tactics will not work in this edition. This goes for almost every army in the game, but seems to be going double for Tau. You have to actually think about longevity for once.

He had a gunline, 3x broadside, riptide, longstrike, missile commander, 3x missile crisis, 30 fw, and some drones (2x 5 ml drones). Thats all I can remember. His opponent was Ynnary (mostly DE and 600-700 pts clowns). At the end of first eldar turn there was only longstrike and couple drones and fw left, no reason to play further.

I know this list is far from great, but when the new edition hit we playtest every faction we can reach in club and no one was so bad as tau. This guy is punished for taking anything outside the commander and s*ttons of drones and markerlights are totally useless, with 5+ drone's BS you need like 15-20 to get that +1 BS. This is not worth the job. Sure, you can play msu horde FW, but tau infantry is boring as hell. No special weapon, no melee (no pile-in mind play, bread of the new edition), you just stand and throwing the dices. It is dull gameplay wise.

You're honestly trying to tell me that an Ynary eldar force made up of half DE and half Harlequins pushed out nearly (18 +14 +13 + 6 + 9 + 30 + 10) ONE HUNDRED WOUNDS against an entrenched Tau gunline (min save in cover will be 3+ and splinter rifles don't have AP and really have a hard time hurting vehicles) WITH ONLY SHOOTING, in one turn?

You're lying. You are either lying, exaggerating, have one of the most incapable Tau player in the world in your club, or that eldar player was rolling nothing but 6's and the tau was rolling nothing but 1's.

I'm not even sure that the scenario you describe is even mathematically possible. Not first turn. Not even second turn unless the dice gods were simply making fun of him (which happens, but isn't normal).

I have no battlerep video, so I can't give any prof. Don't belive it, so skip this example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But just for the sake of the math, longstrike and FW (cant recall how many, about the half) was still on the table, as well as some drones, so this is not a HUNDRED wounds.

But overall it is bad manner to give a suggestion without a prof, so take my excuses.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
No one is saying it isn't a more effective gun, but we're saying it's too expensive. What if a gun in the game existed that did 3d6 damage and on a 6 could instant kill any unit on your opponents army but cost 10k points. Okay great I guess I won't ever get to use it.

And everyone else is saying that it's fair given the context of the Tau army.

Expensive heavy weapons are the price you pay for having suits that usually fly. For having small arms with 30" ranges and S5. For getting basic infantry with a 4+ save. And for getting access to the best ablative wounds in the game, that can even ignore other armies' sniper rules.

Tau are not IG. The fact that a lascannon costs less than a heavy rail rifle only proves that the two armies are different because this direct-comparison stuff you're trying to pull doesn't work cross-army unless you're Eldar or space marines, and even then it really only works when comparing marines to marines, and eldar to eldar (and sometimes not even then).

Tau are not IG. Congrats. You've proven what the rest of us could only figure out by reading the names of both armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runic wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
The only thing I think is currently really broken is Forgeworld. The costing of units is way out in my opinion.

Currently not bringing any more Forgeworld to friendly games.

What FW units do you consider broken?

Almost all of them, at the moment. Their rules look like they were rushed out the door by a 3rd grader with a box of crayons.

Okay so we have a lot of abilities that are clearly over costed for what they do. Fly is useless since everything that has it will be so wounded or so short on manpower after an assault. Anyone with brains will kill the drones with shooting before charging and then charge whatever suit is there a good chance for a single charge kill. Okay then if not I get out of melee with one crisis suit or perhaps a severely wounded ghostkeel or big suit or whatever. Then it fires with its degraded profile woopdee do. Or if it's a unit of crisis it has like one guy left. Morale checks also mess up drones and infantry left right and centre to the point it's a huge threat for our army and where other armies it's almost a non-factor. Fly keyword does almost nothing for our army. It's a party trick that won't win games. Same with overwatch. Overwatch doesn't win games. In an entire army of overwatch shooting you might kill a model or two in a game or wound a tougher one slightly. Is that worth up charging everything the Tau have this edition by so much when their regular effectiveness is terrible due to overcosting? Flying away is a terrible thing. It's a bonus that doesn't amount to much. Right now a lot of Tau players are having problems even keeping their drones alive to protect anything. At most it gets us one extra turn and since our shooting is so terrible anyways on most thing it really doesn't amount to much. The drones are more likely to put out damage than any of our actual units which is just sad.

Also Tau forgeworld was terrible! The AX-1-0 Tigershark for weeks couldn't even fire its macro guns so it had two big guns it couldn't use. Now it has to choose to fire its macro guns or its other ones. Which is so bad for a 600 point model. The only option that is strong is the Y'vahrah and perhaps the R'varnah. The Ta'unar is acceptable as well, but everything else is just garbage for what it costs.

Don't forget Ghostkeel get movement penalties to their main weapon without the upgrade to negate it.

Silver144 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know this is a bit vague but I was playing in another bracket myself so I never actually got to see his list and I only got to watch the last part of his first match, can't remember how many Ghostkeels exactly, three or four? Each one had two stealth drone escorts that gave a further -1 penalty to to hit rolls against the Ghostkeels but apparently they only needed to be within six inches of any stealth drone to get their bonus, not just their own like the army name suggested - Intangible Ghostkeels.
A pair of fire warriors, one packing a markerlight weapon that seemed to have a good fifty inches of range, I never actually got to see what the other one did and three HQ suits.

What I saw was him systematically table a Necron player.
What I heard and read in the results was that he managed the same with an AM army and a Space Wolves player from my own club who I consider a better SW player than myself.
The only player he didn't boardwipe was a Daemon player who had luck in his back pocket when the TO announced The Relic and then just kept making invul saves.
I played the Daemon player, I think my Deathwatch might have beaten the Ghostkeels, a combination of the Null psychic power and a stupid amount of Special Ammo put the Daemons in their place - it's also possible I could have lost entire units before I even got in Bolter range.
I'm not saying the Ghostkeel shenanigans are broken but Tau definitely have lists that aren't bottom tier.

I didn't saw ghostkeels on the table myself yet, but on the paper - it is battlesuit for 168 pts with 2+1d3 meltashots. I don't know, with bs4+ this is not so much, my deepstriking combi- jetpack wolf guards looks better as for me. I mean he will get 2 hits average and his to-hit penalty works only when the enemy is 12', and his drones are only t4 single wound, I can take them down with bolters.

Unless he makes a decent number of his saves then blows your Jump Squad away.
You'd honestly be better off dropping them on the markerlight guy and his bodyguard to put them out of the battle as quick as possible.
The Necron guy's first volley was against the Drones, so were all his others, the HQ missiles and Ghostkeels put down his Arks then did his 'crons squad by squad.
Twelve inches is Rapid Fire range for Space Marines and Necrons, having Fly means even dedicated CC like TWC can only get one meaningful round on them and there is no relevant penalty on them when they just leave combat so hanging about at the twelve inch range is low risk and means most Orks literally can't shoot them unless they charge the Orks, Guard are effectively Overwatching them in any given shooting phase and wounding them on fives or sixes, meanwhile those HQ suits are laying into anything that truly threatens the Ghostkeels with fairly powerful Missiles while being untargetable to non Sniper models due to the blocking Ghostkeels and drones. Nid swarms, maybe Nurgle zombies and Deathwatch would be the only things in my mind that would have a better than 50% chance as a list against the Ghostkeels, with the Nids and Zombies able to put down so many fearless models that the Tau army simply wouldn't have enough shots to bring enough of them down before just about everything being overrun by the Nids and the Keels having nowhere to escape to so no way of leaving combat or simply outlasted by the Zombies - Deathwatch is another name I'll throw in that hat due to Specialised Ammo and the Tau list having such a small model count.

Remember to factor in the ghostkeels -1 to hit with his mainn weapon after a charge unless he is upgraded to move and shoot with no penalties. If he is degraded profile it might even be a 6+ or if he is degraded with an upgrade to move and shoot with no penalty it's 5+ to hit. Not going ot be doing much. An ork player actually came in second place at the 100 man Caledonian Deathwatch event last week. We don't know his list, but he crushed all other opponents except the flyer spam list going around.

Tau didn't even come close to the top 10. Didn't place very well at all in that tournament. I think most people here are severely over rating Tau abilities and how they are costed. Drones and fly keyword were easily played around by the best players. What a shock.

Even if you don't think you can kill ghostkeels (for some reason) I mean they are one of our mid tier units I will grant you that. You can easily outplay the army on objectives since there is so few of them.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know this is a bit vague but I was playing in another bracket myself so I never actually got to see his list and I only got to watch the last part of his first match, can't remember how many Ghostkeels exactly, three or four? Each one had two stealth drone escorts that gave a further -1 penalty to to hit rolls against the Ghostkeels but apparently they only needed to be within six inches of any stealth drone to get their bonus, not just their own like the army name suggested - Intangible Ghostkeels.
A pair of fire warriors, one packing a markerlight weapon that seemed to have a good fifty inches of range, I never actually got to see what the other one did and three HQ suits.

What I saw was him systematically table a Necron player.
What I heard and read in the results was that he managed the same with an AM army and a Space Wolves player from my own club who I consider a better SW player than myself.
The only player he didn't boardwipe was a Daemon player who had luck in his back pocket when the TO announced The Relic and then just kept making invul saves.
I played the Daemon player, I think my Deathwatch might have beaten the Ghostkeels, a combination of the Null psychic power and a stupid amount of Special Ammo put the Daemons in their place - it's also possible I could have lost entire units before I even got in Bolter range.
I'm not saying the Ghostkeel shenanigans are broken but Tau definitely have lists that aren't bottom tier.

I didn't saw ghostkeels on the table myself yet, but on the paper - it is battlesuit for 168 pts with 2+1d3 meltashots. I don't know, with bs4+ this is not so much, my deepstriking combi- jetpack wolf guards looks better as for me. I mean he will get 2 hits average and his to-hit penalty works only when the enemy is 12', and his drones are only t4 single wound, I can take them down with bolters.

Unless he makes a decent number of his saves then blows your Jump Squad away.
You'd honestly be better off dropping them on the markerlight guy and his bodyguard to put them out of the battle as quick as possible.
The Necron guy's first volley was against the Drones, so were all his others, the HQ missiles and Ghostkeels put down his Arks then did his 'crons squad by squad.
Twelve inches is Rapid Fire range for Space Marines and Necrons, having Fly means even dedicated CC like TWC can only get one meaningful round on them and there is no relevant penalty on them when they just leave combat so hanging about at the twelve inch range is low risk and means most Orks literally can't shoot them unless they charge the Orks, Guard are effectively Overwatching them in any given shooting phase and wounding them on fives or sixes, meanwhile those HQ suits are laying into anything that truly threatens the Ghostkeels with fairly powerful Missiles while being untargetable to non Sniper models due to the blocking Ghostkeels and drones. Nid swarms, maybe Nurgle zombies and Deathwatch would be the only things in my mind that would have a better than 50% chance as a list against the Ghostkeels, with the Nids and Zombies able to put down so many fearless models that the Tau army simply wouldn't have enough shots to bring enough of them down before just about everything being overrun by the Nids and the Keels having nowhere to escape to so no way of leaving combat or simply outlasted by the Zombies - Deathwatch is another name I'll throw in that hat due to Specialised Ammo and the Tau list having such a small model count.

I don't compare jetpack WG vs ghostkeel direct battle, just notice, that jetpack WG make their the job better (and they have the same role as ghostkeel). And even if we will pit them, ghostkeel will only kill one or two guy average. Look at his weapons, 2x melta and heavy 1d3 melta, with bs4+ it is 2 hits average, 1-2 dead marine, but every one costs 40 pts, not a cheap guys though.

Also I see no reason to take TWC anymore, the WG on bike have same s4 A:2 but have a M:14 instead of 10, can turboboost for extra 6 (not a stupid 1d6 run), have a 3(!) bolters each, so they can make 30 rapidfire shots to clean off the screen before the big target, and they have a smaller base, so they actually can hide behind the los block and benefit from cover, when each TWC has a dreadnought size base. And they are cheaper. Hooray for the WG.

Silver144 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know this is a bit vague but I was playing in another bracket myself so I never actually got to see his list and I only got to watch the last part of his first match, can't remember how many Ghostkeels exactly, three or four? Each one had two stealth drone escorts that gave a further -1 penalty to to hit rolls against the Ghostkeels but apparently they only needed to be within six inches of any stealth drone to get their bonus, not just their own like the army name suggested - Intangible Ghostkeels.
A pair of fire warriors, one packing a markerlight weapon that seemed to have a good fifty inches of range, I never actually got to see what the other one did and three HQ suits.

What I saw was him systematically table a Necron player.
What I heard and read in the results was that he managed the same with an AM army and a Space Wolves player from my own club who I consider a better SW player than myself.
The only player he didn't boardwipe was a Daemon player who had luck in his back pocket when the TO announced The Relic and then just kept making invul saves.
I played the Daemon player, I think my Deathwatch might have beaten the Ghostkeels, a combination of the Null psychic power and a stupid amount of Special Ammo put the Daemons in their place - it's also possible I could have lost entire units before I even got in Bolter range.
I'm not saying the Ghostkeel shenanigans are broken but Tau definitely have lists that aren't bottom tier.

I didn't saw ghostkeels on the table myself yet, but on the paper - it is battlesuit for 168 pts with 2+1d3 meltashots. I don't know, with bs4+ this is not so much, my deepstriking combi- jetpack wolf guards looks better as for me. I mean he will get 2 hits average and his to-hit penalty works only when the enemy is 12', and his drones are only t4 single wound, I can take them down with bolters.

Unless he makes a decent number of his saves then blows your Jump Squad away.
You'd honestly be better off dropping them on the markerlight guy and his bodyguard to put them out of the battle as quick as possible.
The Necron guy's first volley was against the Drones, so were all his others, the HQ missiles and Ghostkeels put down his Arks then did his 'crons squad by squad.
Twelve inches is Rapid Fire range for Space Marines and Necrons, having Fly means even dedicated CC like TWC can only get one meaningful round on them and there is no relevant penalty on them when they just leave combat so hanging about at the twelve inch range is low risk and means most Orks literally can't shoot them unless they charge the Orks, Guard are effectively Overwatching them in any given shooting phase and wounding them on fives or sixes, meanwhile those HQ suits are laying into anything that truly threatens the Ghostkeels with fairly powerful Missiles while being untargetable to non Sniper models due to the blocking Ghostkeels and drones. Nid swarms, maybe Nurgle zombies and Deathwatch would be the only things in my mind that would have a better than 50% chance as a list against the Ghostkeels, with the Nids and Zombies able to put down so many fearless models that the Tau army simply wouldn't have enough shots to bring enough of them down before just about everything being overrun by the Nids and the Keels having nowhere to escape to so no way of leaving combat or simply outlasted by the Zombies - Deathwatch is another name I'll throw in that hat due to Specialised Ammo and the Tau list having such a small model count.

I don't compare jetpack WG vs ghostkeel direct battle, just notice, that jetpack WG make their the job better (and they have the same role as ghostkeel). And even if we will pit them, ghostkeel will only kill one or two guy average. Look at his weapons, 2x melta and heavy 1d3 melta, with bs4+ it is 2 hits average, 1-2 dead marine, but every one costs 40 pts, not a cheap guys though.

Also I see no reason to take TWC anymore, the WG on bike have same s4 A:2 but have a M:14 instead of 10, can turboboost for extra 6 (not a stupid 1d6 run), have a 3(!) bolters each, so they can make 30 rapidfire shots to clean off the screen before the big target, and they have a smaller base, so they actually can hide behind the los block and benefit from cover, when each TWC has a dreadnought size base. And they are cheaper. Hooray for the WG.

Just don't forget the twc wolves also get to attack, tho I will admit I find your WG on bike idea intriguing.

I know, that TWG has extra 3 5 -1 1 attacks, but 3/6 bolter shots per marine in shooting phase much better, it helps you to deal with the screen before the charge. And M:14 (20) with the ability to use los blocks is a BIG deal

 Gamgee wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Tau have been hit incredibly hard this edition, with ludicrous point increases and a noticeable decrease in effectiveness almost across the board. The larger battlesuits are now not worth taking in a competitive list, the markerlight table has been gutted, and only spam-based lists seem to have potential. Say you want about nerfing the power armies of last edition, but I don't see SM, Eldar, or Ynnari players' best units being turned into paperweights.

Large suits aren't paperweights, you're just spoiled by 7th. You paid 220ish for invincible models. Now you pay an appropriate cost.

Until I see the Tau stats myself, I can't honestly take your word for this, Martel. An accurate description of your view on a unit's power (as it appears on this forum) is essentially: "My BA once lost to it, so it is OP".

Hardly. Don't take my word for it. Go look them up. They're not THAT bad. They were able to suck up like 40+ lascannons in 7th. They can't do that anymore. Commence the QQ. Nova charge Stimtides were more durable than Warhound Titans in 7th. Yeah, it's all me.

Your missing the forest for the trees. Tau durability is okay for its cost but armies don't win on durability alone in 8th. They win by killing or objectives and we can't do objectives anymore due to crazy turn one charges. Our firepower is anemic. We pay huge extra points costs on weapons that are less effective effective than any other army. My tau players in my local have given up Tau against their will since there is no hope brining them and hoping to win. Other races have melee, speed, range, psychic phase, and now better shooting than the Tau. How is that fair? Tau are the worst faction in the game by a mile right now.

Crazy turn one charges huh? That succeed on 9's? That you can bubble wrap away with Kroots? Sorry you just can't put down 5 riptides and win anymore, but given the durability of the platform, the HRR sounds priced about right. Multimeltas are 27 pts each now. Welcome to 8th.

It's also really, really hard to feel bad for a list where almost every Tau poster had no problem with the carnage they could cause turn 1 in 7th (5 ion acclerators: sorry about your marine army, bro!, but somehow, turn one charges are the end of the world? You can just walk out of CC, now, you know. It's not a death sentence anymore for Tau. That and all the people bending over backwards justifying the price tag on the 7th ed Riptide. That makes it hard, too. Sorry your MC can't outlast a titan anymore.

Turn 1 charges are blown way out of proportion around here.

If you have nothing to absorb a charge, and leave your most valuable stuff out in the open, unprotected, that's a problem. Forgetting of course that some of your big-bads have wicked flamers.

You'll notice that not one Imperial Guard player is complaining about first turn charges, because they're used to using bodies to protect their tanks, and they understand that a first turn charge is actually not that powerful.

The turn 3 charge vs a target of value is way more powerful in 8th ed. This frankly doesn't surprise me as this is the crowd that I mathematically showed how crazy the Stimtide was, but the still refused to admit anything. "It's not THAT bad" "You have to learn strategy" "It can't fight in melee!"

 Zan wrote:
The only armies with a strict disadvantage are low number armies like primaris, grey knights, deathwing, etc. However, they usually set up fist and get to go first, which helps semi balance the battles before they start taking casualties.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Tau are not IG. The fact that a lascannon costs less than a heavy rail rifle only proves that the two armies are different because this direct-comparison stuff you're trying to pull doesn't work cross-army unless you're Eldar or space marines, and even then it really only works when comparing marines to marines, and eldar to eldar (and sometimes not even then).

Never called for Tau to become IG
but it's only one with his head in the sand that can claim that Tau wasn't hit harder when the editions changed.

Quad Lascannon Predator went from 140 to 200 (+45%)
Triple Lascannon HWT went from 60 to 72 (+20%)
Manticore went from 170 to 125 (-30%)
Double Auto Cannon Venerable Dreadnought went from 145 to 156 (+8%)
Double Lascannon Razorback went from 75 to 115 (+50%)

Broadside HYMP+SMS went from 65 to 202 (+315%)
Broadside HRR+SMS went from 65 to 183 (+285%)
Crisis MP went from 45 to 115 (+250%)


Next problem was the changes to Markerlights.
While it's awesome that they don't go away now. The bonus they give have also been neutered.
Tau players relied on Markerlights to make expensive shots like the 65 point Broadsides (was seen as a skosh expensive even in previous editions) hit their target accurately.
That's gone now, since you need a TON of Markerlights to the +1 BS, where previously you needed just a few shots to get BS increases.
So they Doubled/Tripled our costs AND nerfed our ability to fix our Accuracy where it matters.

I could also mention the loss of JSJ... but at this point... Does it really matter?
-Cynical Joke- "Let's make an army with no psychic powers... that's bad at melee... AND ... wait for it... bad at shooting... AND make their models really expensive!"

Martel732 wrote:
*snip*

Crazy turn one charges huh? That succeed on 9's? That you can bubble wrap away with Kroots? Sorry you just can't put down 5 riptides and win anymore, but given the durability of the platform, the HRR sounds priced about right. Multimeltas are 27 pts each now. Welcome to 8th.

It's also really, really hard to feel bad for a list where almost every Tau poster had no problem with the carnage they could cause turn 1 in 7th (5 ion acclerators: sorry about your marine army, bro!, but somehow, turn one charges are the end of the world? You can just walk out of CC, now, you know. It's not a death sentence anymore for Tau. That and all the people bending over backwards justifying the price tag on the 7th ed Riptide. That makes it hard, too. Sorry your MC can't outlast a titan anymore.

As a player who never fielded riptide wing and only ever fielded one riptide at a time I take a bit of offense to this. However I must say there is some truth to it. I played mostly crisis suit, stealth, and ghostkeels in 7th and right now I am doing pretty good using those same units also my devilfished are coming back. My record with tau is 4-0 (against DE, harlequins, IG, and marines if any one cares) and I have to say the fly keyword is outstanding. Tau players need to adjust just like everyone else.

 Talamare wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:

Tau are not IG. The fact that a lascannon costs less than a heavy rail rifle only proves that the two armies are different because this direct-comparison stuff you're trying to pull doesn't work cross-army unless you're Eldar or space marines, and even then it really only works when comparing marines to marines, and eldar to eldar (and sometimes not even then).

Never called for Tau to become IG
but it's only one with his head in the sand that can claim that Tau wasn't hit harder when the editions changed.

Quad Lascannon Predator went from 140 to 200 (+45%)
Triple Lascannon HWT went from 60 to 72 (+20%)
Manticore went from 170 to 125 (-30%)
Double Auto Cannon Venerable Dreadnought went from 145 to 156 (+8%)
Double Lascannon Razorback went from 75 to 115 (+50%)

Broadside HYMP+SMS went from 65 to 202 (+315%)
Broadside HRR+SMS went from 65 to 183 (+285%)
Crisis MP went from 45 to 115 (+250%)

Again, it's almost as though different armies are different or something!

Take a basic transport with ~12 wounds. A quad lascannon pred with a 3+ BS will shoot with 4, hit with 2-3, wound with 1-2, and deal 3-7 damage for ~200 points.

Broadside with HRR and a single markerlight will shoot with 2, hit with 1-2 (re-rolling 1's), wound with 1-2, and deal 3-7 damage for ~200 points with a, roughly, 1 in 3 chance for an extra mortal wound.

For return fire, the pred has ~12 wounds, ~T7, and a 3+ save.
The Broadside has 6 wounds, T5 or 6, a 2+ save, a potential 4++ save, and drone bubble-wrap with more 4++ saves or markerlights.

Can someone look up broadsides for me and tell me how easily they can take advantage of cover?

 Talamare wrote:

Next problem was the changes to Markerlights.
While it's awesome that they don't go away now. The bonus they give have also been neutered.
Tau players relied on Markerlights to make expensive shots like the 65 point Broadsides (was seen as a skosh expensive even in previous editions) hit their target accurately.
That's gone now, since you need a TON of Markerlights to the +1 BS, where previously you needed just a few shots to get BS increases.
So they Doubled/Tripled our costs AND nerfed our ability to fix our Accuracy where it matters.

Cry me a river. Markerlights are still disgustingly powerful. Only difference now is that in 8th edition, the other player will get to actually play with their vehicles for a bit before the Tau blow them all off the board. Also, it's like they want you to actually have to suffer through having a BS of 4 on occasion, or something.

 Talamare wrote:

I could also mention the loss of JSJ... but at this point... Does it really matter?
-Cynical Joke- "Let's make an army with no psychic powers... that's bad at melee... AND ... wait for it... bad at shooting... AND make their models really expensive!"

JSJ? No. It doesn't. Not now that everyone can advance AND now that you can simply walk your units out of CC and have the rest of your army level the assaulters.

I'm not touching your joke seeing as how it just flatly ignores every single strength in the Tau army, including how their shooting is NOT bad.

 Gamgee wrote:


Las Cannon 20 points. Heavy Rail Rifle 63 points! They are effectively the same weapon but has one extra shot .

The lascannon and heavy rail rifle are, in other words, effectively the same weapon except that one is much better than the other

 Melissia wrote:

 Zan wrote:
The only armies with a strict disadvantage are low number armies like primaris, grey knights, deathwing, etc. However, they usually set up fist and get to go first, which helps semi balance the battles before they start taking casualties.

Orks have a far worse winrate than those.

Only in games reported on dakka.
In Dakka reported games, orks have an almost identical win percentage to Space Marines
There aren't enough games with the factions you mentioned (Grey Knights, Dark Angels) to draw a meaningful conclusion about their quality.
Orks finished 2nd overall in a 100 person tournament. If Orks are as bad as dakka suggests this wouldn't be possible.



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 Arandmoor wrote:

Again, it's almost as though different armies are different or something!

Take a basic transport with ~12 wounds. A quad lascannon pred with a 3+ BS will shoot with 4, hit with 2-3, wound with 1-2, and deal 3-7 damage for ~200 points.

Broadside with HRR and a single markerlight will shoot with 2, hit with 1-2 (re-rolling 1's), wound with 1-2, and deal 3-7 damage for ~200 points with a, roughly, 1 in 3 chance for an extra mortal wound.

For return fire, the pred has ~12 wounds, ~T7, and a 3+ save.
The Broadside has 6 wounds, T5 or 6, a 2+ save, a potential 4++ save, and drone bubble-wrap with more 4++ saves or markerlights.

Can someone look up broadsides for me and tell me how easily they can take advantage of cover?

Broadsides are not Infantry, they actually need to be 50% hidden.
Drone Bubble Wrap gets no saves when they take wounds, so no 4++

Also, I already posted the math on it...

 Talamare wrote:

4Las Predator vs Longrails vs Railside vs Railheads vs Railhead(Longstrike buffed) -- vs a ... I'll be nice to HRR, and say a T7 Tank.
Predator - 4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 5.18
Longrails - 1 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 3.5 + 1 * 5/6 * 1/3 * 2 = 2.98
Railside - 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 2 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 2.5
Railhead(LS) - 1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 1 * 5/6 * 1/6 * 2 = 2.22
Railhead - 1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2 = 1.77

You basically need a 2 Broadsides to equal a Predator
400 points to equal 200 points

A Quad Pred Lascannon will shoot 4, hit with 3, wound with 2, deal 3-7 damage (~10% chance of dealing 0 damage)
A HRR Broadside will shoot 2, hit with 1, and like miss, or maybe get a few wounds. (~40% chance of dealing 0 damage)

Again, No one cares that the armies are different. What we care about is that
Army A - Has Good Psychic, Good Shooting, Good Melee
Army B - Has No Psychic, Bad Shooting, Worst Melee in the Game
These are PROVEN OBJECTIVE MATHEMATICAL TRUTHS.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Zan wrote:
The only armies with a strict disadvantage are low number armies like primaris, grey knights, deathwing, etc. However, they usually set up fist and get to go first, which helps semi balance the battles before they start taking casualties.

Orks have a far worse winrate than those.

Only in games reported on dakka.
In Dakka reported games, orks have an almost identical win percentage to Space Marines
There aren't enough games with the factions you mentioned (Grey Knights, Dark Angels) to draw a meaningful conclusion about their quality.
Orks finished 2nd overall in a 100 person tournament. If Orks are as bad as dakka suggests this wouldn't be possible.

Actually given the relatively narrower power gap this edition, the fact detachments allow you to easily spam 1-2 good units, the unstable meta, and normal random chance, it's actually entirely possible for that to happen and orks be a subpar army overall. Honestly it'd actually be impressive if an army didn't have any viable builds right now. They'd have to either have an exceptionally small selection of units, no decent cheap HQs and no flyers or LoW of note, or flat out not have anything worthwhile in their army.

Of course, with codices coming out so quickly, I doubt any real consensus will emerge for quite a while. A new codex every month can easily keep the meta from stabilizing, and that's the point where armies with only a couple viable builds and good units will start struggling.

 Gamgee wrote:
Remember to factor in the ghostkeels -1 to hit with his mainn weapon after a charge unless he is upgraded to move and shoot with no penalties.

Just about everyone else has that penalty, with no means to alleviate it.

 Talamare wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:

Again, it's almost as though different armies are different or something!

Take a basic transport with ~12 wounds. A quad lascannon pred with a 3+ BS will shoot with 4, hit with 2-3, wound with 1-2, and deal 3-7 damage for ~200 points.

Broadside with HRR and a single markerlight will shoot with 2, hit with 1-2 (re-rolling 1's), wound with 1-2, and deal 3-7 damage for ~200 points with a, roughly, 1 in 3 chance for an extra mortal wound.

For return fire, the pred has ~12 wounds, ~T7, and a 3+ save.
The Broadside has 6 wounds, T5 or 6, a 2+ save, a potential 4++ save, and drone bubble-wrap with more 4++ saves or markerlights.

Can someone look up broadsides for me and tell me how easily they can take advantage of cover?

Broadsides are not Infantry, they actually need to be 50% hidden.
Drone Bubble Wrap gets no saves when they take wounds, so no 4++

Also, I already posted the math on it...

 Talamare wrote:

4Las Predator vs Longrails vs Railside vs Railheads vs Railhead(Longstrike buffed) -- vs a ... I'll be nice to HRR, and say a T7 Tank.
Predator - 4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 5.18
Longrails - 1 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 3.5 + 1 * 5/6 * 1/3 * 2 = 2.98
Railside - 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 2 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 2.5
Railhead(LS) - 1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 1 * 5/6 * 1/6 * 2 = 2.22
Railhead - 1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 + 1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2 = 1.77

You basically need a 2 Broadsides to equal a Predator
400 points to equal 200 points

A Quad Pred Lascannon will shoot 4, hit with 3, wound with 2, deal 3-7 damage (~10% chance of dealing 0 damage)
A HRR Broadside will shoot 2, hit with 1, and like miss, or maybe get a few wounds. (~40% chance of dealing 0 damage)

Again, No one cares that the armies are different. What we care about is that
Army A - Has Good Psychic, Good Shooting, Good Melee
Army B - Has No Psychic, Bad Shooting, Worst Melee in the Game
These are PROVEN OBJECTIVE MATHEMATICAL TRUTHS.

In a vacuum. Only in a vacuum.

Broadsides have secondary weapons they pay points for, that make them useful in other situations. SMS can be used to bombard approaching infantry from cover. Plasma rifles can be used to pop marines as they approach. Broadsides can benefit from markerlights, and their weapon packages make them highly value that 3rd hit. Meanwhile, a moving predator has to eat that -1 to hit if it wants to move. Broadsides get a support system that can include a 4++ save over their 2+, or a drone controller to enable their own markerlight drone spam, or a velocity tracker to turn them into anti-air batteries for a mere 2 points without gimping them against non-aerial targets.

Oh, and shield drones get their 4++ save against any wounds allocated to them through their savior protocols. I have no idea where you got the idea that they cannot take their invuln save. The protocols just allow you to allocate the wound. It's still saved against as normal.

Finally, again, Tau do NOT have bad shooting. They have 4+ bs, but also have a higher than average strength. It's not the army's fault that you like elite spam that doesn't take advantage of it.

Firewarriors and Breacher teams are where your advantaged shooting is. They reverse the math against the marine standard by hitting with half and wounding with 2/3rds (compared to a bolter vs a marine that hits with 2/3rds and wounds with half). The infantry units you don't use have marine shooting before markerlights are taken into account, and do so for about 60% of the cost per model.

Your broadsides should be supporting your gunline. Not standing in place of it.

You're trying to argue that the entire Tau army sucks, and your proof is that Broadsides aren't as good as a las-pred in a vacuum. If you can't understand why that's a bad argument, I don't know what else I *can* tell you.

Edit: I thought you were comparing Tau to IG. How did space marines enter into theis? We already know that SM shoot really well for their points because they pay for it with 13 point models at a minimum. A better comparison given the context of the rest of the conversation would be a broadside vs a LRBT.

Didn't saviour protocols get whammyed with mortal wounds?

Alcibiades wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Remember to factor in the ghostkeels -1 to hit with his mainn weapon after a charge unless he is upgraded to move and shoot with no penalties.

Just about everyone else has that penalty, with no means to alleviate it.

Also, the Ghostkeel just has an option to alleviate it. 3 Markerlight hits will do the same for the entire Tau army.

If you're willing and able to coordinate your ghostkeels with your markerlight assets, you don't need to take a Target Lock. I, personally, consider a shield generator to be mandatory for a Ghostkeel, and would take a target lock as a good second option. However, if I'm markerlighting it's targets, I would gladly drop the target lock out for a stimulant injector. It's actually a really attractive strategy from a potential perspective.

 Melissia wrote:

 Zan wrote:
The only armies with a strict disadvantage are low number armies like primaris, grey knights, deathwing, etc. However, they usually set up fist and get to go first, which helps semi balance the battles before they start taking casualties.

Orks have a far worse winrate than those.

I have a win/loss table to debunk the above claim (not about Orks).

 Selym wrote:
Deer Lawd, the Tau have been taking it up the ass as of late.

Anyways, here's the customary W/L ratio, of any army with 30 or more games. For inclusion's sake.

 mrhappyface wrote:

1) Astra Militarium - 1.854
2) Thousand Sons - 1.750
3) Dark Eldar - 1.700
4) Space Wolves - 1.524
5) Grey Knights - 1.250
6) Eldar - 1.200
7) Tyranids - 1.028
8) Necrons - 0.889
9) Dark Angels - 0.800
10) Ad mech - 0.778
11) Space Marines - 0.724
12) Chaos Space Marines - 0.721
13) Orks - 0.694
14) Blood Angels - 0.652
15) Tau - 0.425

Grey Knights are doing fine. Don't know about Primaris, but the C:SM entry is sub-par, so there's argument there.

Martel732 wrote:
Didn't saviour protocols get whammyed with mortal wounds?

Not to my knowledge? Granted, I haven't been paying that much attention so I could be wrong. However, as I understand it a wound is a wound, and savior protocols just interrupt the normal allocation step and allow the tau player to allocate the wound to a drone. The wound roll would then occur as normal, followed by an armor/invuln save if applicable.

If it's a mortal wound, then yeah, it would ignore any armor or invuln save, and automatically deal 1 damage. But there's nothing there that says anything about allocated wounds becoming mortal, or allocated wounds ignoring any other rules. They can just be allocated to a drone unit within 3" instead of the target unit.

Pages 53, 56, 57, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73
and 74 – Saviour Protocols
Change this rule to read:
‘Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3"
of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit
unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you
can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal
wound instead of the normal damage.’

I suspect the shield drone will get an exemption in the codex.