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Im having a hard time getting damage done to a tank heavy guard list, I have tried shooting with bulk lascanons and that hasn't done enough and assault is tricky with a shield of guys preventing tanks being assaulted.

Any ideas for a good list to run?

What kind of tanks? If they are the flamer or close ranged tanks, ignore them and draw them into bad matchups while you secure objectives. If they are long ranged, use buildings to hide behind and draw them out to assault them and keep them from firing.
Most games are not won by the quantity of kills.

3 x russ with battle canons and las canons
1x basilisk
3x chimera

and about 8 10 man squads defending all the tanks and or in transports

Deploy your assault units in the sky. Deploy the rest as a fire base. Turn one drop them down out of sight. A first turn charge is too risky. The presence of the units will force him to adjust his lines and divide his attention. Turn two: Adjust your lines of fire and support your assault. Assault on a narrow path. Avoid giving him overwatch. Destroy one unit at a time and consolidate into the next combat. Assault the tanks as they become vulnerable. Move your fire base aggressively to take advantage of the disruption in his lines.

Go infantry-heavy. Battle cannons are are not really optimal for killing Marines and lascannons are wasted on single-wound models.

Those 10-man units will be vulnerable to battle-shock so get a couple of units of sniper Scouts to put down Commissars. Kill half the squad and the other half should run away.

Crimson Devil is right to suggest plenty of jump pack units. Focus and be methodical. Try to focus your assaults on the flanks, that way if he retreats from combat, he will have fewer units to shoot at your exposed assaulters. Devastators with Lascannons in cover will bring down his tanks given time. Buy additional guys to act as ablative wounds for the heavy weapons dudes.

 Karhedron wrote:
Go infantry-heavy. Battle cannons are are not really optimal for killing Marines.

Not true. In practise, battle cannon russes will tear infantry units a new hole. Saying that, it only takes one infantry model to make it into cc to lock down a tank for the whole game.

My personal LRBT killer is a Knight: in a game he'll either draw enough fire from your opponant that everything else you've brought makes it across the board unscathed or he'll survive the fire storm and start flipping Russes left and right.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Go infantry-heavy. Battle cannons are are not really optimal for killing Marines.

Not true. In practise, battle cannon russes will tear infantry units a new hole. Saying that, it only takes one infantry model to make it into cc to lock down a tank for the whole game.

Battlecannon gets D6 shots so an average of 3.5. Hits on a 4+ so 1.75 hits. Wounds on a 2+ so 1.49 wounds. AP-2 so the Marine gets a 5+ save so 0.97 Marines killed. Marines are single wound models so the D3 damage is wasted and does not spill over. So a Battlecannon will kill on average 1 Marine per turn, not exactly terrifying. You will probably get a better kill rate from the heavy bolters.

 Karhedron wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Go infantry-heavy. Battle cannons are are not really optimal for killing Marines.

Not true. In practise, battle cannon russes will tear infantry units a new hole. Saying that, it only takes one infantry model to make it into cc to lock down a tank for the whole game.

Battlecannon gets D6 shots so an average of 3.5. Hits on a 4+ so 1.75 hits. Wounds on a 2+ so 1.49 wounds. AP-2 so the Marine gets a 5+ save so 0.97 Marines killed. Marines are single wound models so the D3 damage is wasted and does not spill over. So a Battlecannon will kill on average 1 Marine per turn, not exactly terrifying. You will probably get a better kill rate from the heavy bolters.

People keep spewing averages all over the place without taking into account that this is real life, not a perfect mathmatical universe. Yes, on average, you'll kill 0.97 of a marine a turn but in practice you'll get 1 or 2 turns where the BC does bugger all (getting a 1 or 2 for shots but a CP could quite easily swing that to 4 shots), 1 or 2 turns where you get 1 or 2 kills and those killer turns where you roll 6s and wipe half the squad or kill those last 2 camping an objective.

The problem with averages (whilst being a brilliant gage on how effective a weapon is at firing into one squad all day long with no other parameters) is that you don't take into account decisions made by players, the rest of the army a person has taken and what the objectives of certain units are during a match. On paper the BC shouldn't be able to really bother infantry but in practice it only takes one good round of rolling for a BC to wipe a unit. Maths is a very strong weapon but it means nothing if you can't apply it in context.

You can't count on outliers in a 6 turn game.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't count on outliers in a 6 turn game.

You also can't count on averages in only 6 turns.

Okay you pray for your BC to take out a squad. I'll take the chance that it never happens in 5-6 turns. The math of the BC involves a chain of rolls, and so is heavily centered around the gaussian center results. Player decisions mean nothing in this equation.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay you pray for your BC to take out a squad. I'll take the chance that it never happens in 5-6 turns. The math of the BC involves a chain of rolls, and so is heavily centered around the gaussian center results. Player decisions mean nothing in this equation.

Have you ever seen a Guard player using LRBT in real life? Between CP, Orders, re-rolls, etc. the BC does far better than average and you are far more likely to get those spikes where the BC whipes a squad in a turn. I don't tell me this doesn't happen in practice, a Guard player I know who is using 4-5 LRBTs, MT CS, and Mechanicus allies has won almost all of his games and those that I've watched showed just how deadly BC can be with a smart commander.

(This is why I'm so dubious to the whole "GW lied! Not everything is viable!", the veteran players I have watched have made quite a lot of things work that people have said are crap. Case in point being the BCs and an Ork player who is tearing holes with his Morkanaught and KillaKan list)

So what part of the BC gets rerolls specifically?

All the IG players stopped using them in my meta.

So it takes 4-5 LRBTs to get a few good hits? Yeah, not fearing them.

Martel732 wrote:
So what part of the BC gets rerolls specifically?

All the IG players stopped using them in my meta.

So it takes 4-5 LRBTs to get a few good hits? Yeah, not fearing them.

I'm not sure about the re-rolls, there's the Orders and I believe there was something else...

You can not fear them if you like but he's doing pretty damn well for someone using 'supposedly' the worst LRBT varient, I'm one of the few people who have beaten him but it was pretty damn close and I lost over 2/3 of my Zerkers to his BCs.

Okay. I have no context. But mathematically, there are IG builds I fear MUCH more.

What specifically do the orders do to help BC accuracy?

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I have no context. But mathematically, there are IG builds I fear MUCH more.

What specifically do the orders do to help BC accuracy?

I believe there is one for re-rolling to hit, pop smoke and fire and another? I'm not completely versed in the Chaos Index yet so I'm a bit behind on my Imperial reading.

 Karhedron wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Go infantry-heavy. Battle cannons are are not really optimal for killing Marines.

Not true. In practise, battle cannon russes will tear infantry units a new hole. Saying that, it only takes one infantry model to make it into cc to lock down a tank for the whole game.

Battlecannon gets D6 shots so an average of 3.5. Hits on a 4+ so 1.75 hits. Wounds on a 2+ so 1.49 wounds. AP-2 so the Marine gets a 5+ save so 0.97 Marines killed. Marines are single wound models so the D3 damage is wasted and does not spill over. So a Battlecannon will kill on average 1 Marine per turn, not exactly terrifying. You will probably get a better kill rate from the heavy bolters.

You would be surprised how quickly 3 battle cannons chews through MEQS. You don't roll averages.

Why is there always someone to point out the obvious? Absolutely everyone is perfectly aware the average outcome will not be the exact outcome during every round of a match. That's not the point. The point is to show what an average result is, which oddly enough, given enough games/rounds, will trend towards the average.

I don't know what anyone is trying to prove when they have to explain that average don't represent the exact outcomes in every single match. We know that. It isn't the point. We can talk about outliers all day long, but the long and short is that when talking theoreticals on a board about what weapons are best used against what targets, all we have are averages (and that other probability thing that does average chance of getting at least X).

So this...

You would be surprised how quickly 3 battle cannons chews through MEQS. You don't roll averages.

Is exactly as true as this...

You would be surprised how slowly 3 battle cannons chews through MEQS. You don't roll averages.

Because I could roll nothing but 6s for one turn. I could also roll nothing but 1s. Or I could roll some number in between...like say...an average number!

I agree that I don't fear that list at all. It has almost no scoring potential outside of the unit or two in transports, and those can easily be dealt with.

Manticores are even more scary than the Basilisks. I have to fight a guard player that has 3 of those in his lines.

No LOS and lots of damage.

You definitely need something that will do tons of damage.

Heres my list "roughly"

HQ lemartes

elites:

1x5 dcompany with jetpacks and power swords with 1 fist
1x5 dcompany with jetpacks and power swords with 1 fist
1x6 dcompany with power fist and power swords in razorback with twin las
1x5 termies with heavy flamer and chain fists and sarge with sword

troops:

1x5 tac marines with lascanon
1x5 tac marines with lascanon
1x5 tac marines with lascanon

heavy:

1x baal predator with heavy bolters

fast attack

10 assault marines just with bolt pistols and chainswords

1500 points.

McCraggen wrote:
Im having a hard time getting damage done to a tank heavy guard list,

I played that list in 6e and 7e for "fun". After all the times I got tabled by turn 3, I can't help but find this funny.

Right now, outlasting them shouldn't be too hard. Their damage output is not that impressive. Just run around and grab objectives, or try putting something expendable in melee with them so they can't shoot for a turn or two.

defintely still learning the ropes haha im a new blood angels player in a new version

McCraggen wrote:
Im having a hard time getting damage done to a tank heavy guard list, I have tried shooting with bulk lascanons and that hasn't done enough and assault is tricky with a shield of guys preventing tanks being assaulted.

Any ideas for a good list to run?

As a guy who primarily runs Guard and dips his toe into Blood Angels with Lamenters, I can't really give you a good list, but I can give you general advice.

1. Relying on killing all of his characters to force battleshock is a fool's errand. If he has half a brain he's running multiple ways to shore up his morale and you'll never truly lock them down. Same for tying infantry up in close combat. Unless you can guarantee his officers won't be in order range (usually 6") he's going to just "Get Back in the Fight" next turn and shoot you anyways. Even bringing something insane like 2 eversor's isn't going to be enough to fully shut him down, especially as he has tanks to help block line of sight. You're honestly better off forcing him to spread out than trying to pick off all of his characters. Best way to do this would probably be to take a unit of sniper scouts to encourage him to hide his officers. This will make it harder for him to move them up to support his infantry.

2. Tanks on the other hand can absolutely be tied up with close combat. Unlike infantry, tanks lack an order that allows them to fire after falling back. Even just consolidating into them will be enough to shut down their guns for a turn. Remember, he will still fall back and shoot you with other units, but at least you can shut up the tanks.

3. Do not get into a gun fight with him, he will win. You're blood angels. You've got jumpacks out the wazoo along with fast transports. Play the objectives and in general just be fast and annoying. This means not just playing kill em all type missions though. In particular, if you can get them to play the missions where you randomly dictate tactical objectives every turn that will help too. IG loves missions that let us sit on a point without having to do much until the final turn. Forcing missions where he has to move up every turn if he wants to win will open up his lines to deepstriking and jump pack assaults.

Number 3 is the most important in my opinion. All too often when I see people complain about IG they're trying to just kill his army, lining up in a war of attrition and just trying to table him. This is exactly what an IG player wants. Our entire army is designed to grind you down over time and in general get stuck in bloody slugging matches. Trying to fight us at our own game is suicide. Simply put there's not much you'll be able to do aside from straight up tailoring that will allow you to do major damage to an IG list. You'll need to play the objectives if you want to beat him.

Haha! thats EXACTLY what I was doing too, still getting a handle on things, next game im gunna be zippy and annoying haha.

McCraggen wrote:
Heres my list "roughly"

Spoiler:

HQ lemartes

elites:

1x5 dcompany with jetpacks and power swords with 1 fist
1x5 dcompany with jetpacks and power swords with 1 fist
1x6 dcompany with power fist and power swords in razorback with twin las
1x5 termies with heavy flamer and chain fists and sarge with sword

troops:

1x5 tac marines with lascanon
1x5 tac marines with lascanon
1x5 tac marines with lascanon

heavy:

1x baal predator with heavy bolters

fast attack

10 assault marines just with bolt pistols and chainswords

1500 points.

Just a thought, the Baal costs 162 points, has 11 wounds and 18 shots per turn. Now an extra 38 points, you could instead get 2 Razorbacks with Assault Cannons. You now get 24 shots per turn and all of them are S6, you also get 20 wounds spread across the 2 vehicles and you have the option of using them to transport infantry if the tactical situation warrants it.

The Assaullt squad looks a bit under-equipped. I would be tempted to give the sergeant a Thunderhammer and pop a couple of plasma pistols in there. Whilst good at mulching infantry, they will struggle against the multiple tanks your opponent is fielding.

Lastly I would like to ask how you are using your Terminators. I notice they have no transport so I am guessing you are running them on foot or teleporting them into battle. In either case, the Heavy flamer is not a great choice and I would replace it with an assault cannon. The Heavy flamer only has a range of 8" which means it will take several turns on foot to bring it into range. If you Teleport, you have to land >9" away so again, it is out of range.

My advice for the Termies would be to give them an assault cannon and teleport them near your opponent's flanks but within 12" range. At this distance, you will get 16 storm bolter shots and 6 assault cannon shots which should be enough to shred an infantry squad on the turn they arrive. After that they can continue to threaten infantry with their shooting or tanks with their power fists. Unlike previous editions, you do not have to charge the same target that you shot so they can quite happily shoot some infantry and then assault a tank. With multiple attacks and D3 wounds each, your power fists will on average strip 1 wound per turn of a tank per Terminator which is not at all shabby. If you can teleport them into cover, that will make them very hard to stop before they can charge your opponent's lines.

3 Land Speeders have a Move of 20", with Rocket Launchers they can shoot 48", thats 6 Shots Krak with S8, AP-2 and D6 wounds, each. Or you could use Frag to blow away the Infantry, thats 6D6 Shots with S4, W1, should be plenty to kill a whole 10 Model Squad. Then you could deepstrike Company Veterans with Stormshields, and Melters, or Combi Plasmaguns. Add a Captain with Jumppack to reroll 1s, for supercharged Plasmaguns. And maybe a Sanguinary Priest to revive killed Models.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay you pray for your BC to take out a squad. I'll take the chance that it never happens in 5-6 turns. The math of the BC involves a chain of rolls, and so is heavily centered around the gaussian center results. Player decisions mean nothing in this equation.

Have you ever seen a Guard player using LRBT in real life? Between CP, Orders, re-rolls, etc. the BC does far better than average and you are far more likely to get those spikes where the BC whipes a squad in a turn. I don't tell me this doesn't happen in practice, a Guard player I know who is using 4-5 LRBTs, MT CS, and Mechanicus allies has won almost all of his games and those that I've watched showed just how deadly BC can be with a smart commander.

(This is why I'm so dubious to the whole "GW lied! Not everything is viable!", the veteran players I have watched have made quite a lot of things work that people have said are crap. Case in point being the BCs and an Ork player who is tearing holes with his Morkanaught and KillaKan list)

In matched play, you are only allowed to use any single stratagem once per phase, so the CP would bring a 3.5 average to about 4.5. The Tank orders are either move and advance in the shooting phase, re-roll hits of 1 (so not the amount of shots, just the hits of one, which raises the probability of one hit from 50% to 58.3%) and basically a cover modifier as well as shooting.

I just don't see how this can be considered making their power far better than average. The probability of a Leman Russ BC killing 6 marines (without re-rolls) is less than 1 in 10,000. The chance of it rolling a 1 and then missing that shot is 1 in 12, rolling a 2 and missing both are 1 in 24 etc.
Either your friend is the most lucky person I've heard of or you're overestimating how dangerous the tanks are. The standard LRBT is 162 points with basic gear and can't expect to make its points back, as it would need to kill more than 2 marines per turn in a 6 turn game. Even if we give it 6 shots and assume that the rest of the rolls are averagely distributed, you're still not killing two marines per turn, and if it auto hit all those 6 shots it would still take 4 turns of straight shooting for it to make its points back against infantry.

I believe you when you've said that the Leman Russes you've faced have wreaked havoc, but I'm questioning the reasons for it. But those 4 LRBTs are still 650-810 points without any extra equipment, and I would expect for almost half of my standard army to actually do something worthwhile. Is it feasible for this amount of expensive units to wipe out 100-150 points of your own units in a turn? It definitely should be, because even then they're barely scraping by and we still haven't accounted for line of sight, cover, mistakes...

McCraggen wrote:
Heres my list "roughly"

HQ lemartes

elites:

1x5 dcompany with jetpacks and power swords with 1 fist
1x5 dcompany with jetpacks and power swords with 1 fist
1x6 dcompany with power fist and power swords in razorback with twin las
1x5 termies with heavy flamer and chain fists and sarge with sword

troops:

1x5 tac marines with lascanon
1x5 tac marines with lascanon
1x5 tac marines with lascanon

heavy:

1x baal predator with heavy bolters

fast attack

10 assault marines just with bolt pistols and chainswords

1500 points.

Not enough melta for BA

Why not invest in some Razorbacks with Lascannons or Assault Cannons for your Tac Marines?

I also highly recommend a Stormraven Gunship for a Death Company Squad.

Here's my anti-Imperial Tank spam list (I've got a lot of IA players in my meta:

Battalion Detachment 1500 Points

HQ
Lemartes
Librarian Dreadnought

Troops
5x Tac Marines with Lascannon, Sergeant with Combi Melta
5x Tac Marines with Lascannon
5x Tac Marines with Lascannon

Elites
5x DC with Jump Packs, 1 Thunderhammer

Fast Attack
Land Speeder with Multi-Melta

Flyer
Stormraven Gunship w/ Twin Multi-melta and Twin Lascannon

Dedicated Transport
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon
Razorback with Twin Lascannon
Razorback with Twin Lascannon

Personally, I loved the idea and tried my hardest to spam Death Company back in 7th edition, but I just feel like you have to play balanced armies in 8th. Death Company is still overcosted and having low model counts in general is just a bad idea imo.

I love the Baal Preds in this edition and usually run 2 of them in my normal lists. I'm also pretty new at this so feel free to give feedback!