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 andysonic1 wrote:

ITC has decided for the BAO that they won't allow any single model with a PL of 31 and up, which eliminates a lot of the super huge FW units. I expect we will see more tournaments do this and it will start to become the norm in matched play.

What happened to ITC having a vote on this kind of stuff? My "ban Forgeworld completely" vote should be counted.

Breng77 wrote:

The other issue, is will FW update things. GW has indicated they will be making balance changes, points costs changes etc on a regular basis. Now maybe they won't live up to that, but since FW is a different studio we have no idea if they will do the same.

If Forgeworld continue as they have been then OP things won't be quickly fixed but they next time they get updated they will be nerfed until they are completely useless.

As others have said - a blanket ban on FW is ridiculous, the overwhelming majority of units are nothing special. Ban or modify the very small handful of OP units.

+1 to hit flashlights and vultures are pretty broken.

 koooaei wrote:
+1 to hit flashlights and vultures are pretty broken.

Yes. And the Ork killkannon is Heavy6 on a Forgeworld model, but HeavyD6 on the similarly named GW model. A pretty significant difference until they fix it, which they may never do.

Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

5x the options = broken OP combos

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

Maybe I'm too stupid to understand, but why the feth are people treating GW and FW as separate, anyway? It's all Warhammer 40K, published by Games Workshop. There are bad rules and broken units everywhere. Does being in a separate book with a fancy logo somehow make it magically different?

Sure, allowing FW allows more combinations. But that is stupid metric, by that logic the best possible game would be the one with least options, so maybe we should just ban everything except tactical marines? (Obviously no weapon upgrades allowed, that might cause imbalance.)

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

5x the options = broken OP combos

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

No idea what I just read. I played MTG for ten years, and the playerbase is just FINE playing with overpowered cards and combo decks. Sure, some people whine and cry about certain archetypes, but in the most competitive setting, players still usually have between 6-8 builds to choose from, and most of the time the winning deck cycles between those 6-8 builds. There will ALWAYS be certain strategies in ANY game system that are stronger than others. Banning every card that is "strong" is not what WotC does without a ton of data and time, and even then, the card has to be so game-breaking that it completely dominates the tournament scene. Tournament organizers at most of the big 40k tournaments, namely ITC and NOVA, have modified the rules for certain units and models, so there is already competitive balancing being done.

The MLB aluminum bat statement is just ridiculous.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Maybe I'm too stupid to understand, but why the feth are people treating GW and FW as separate, anyway? It's all Warhammer 40K, published by Games Workshop. There are bad rules and broken units everywhere. Does being in a separate book with a fancy logo somehow make it magically different?

Well, it is a different team writing the rules, and I do think that the FW team is worse. But that doesn't mean I want to ban FW stuff completely.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Maybe I'm too stupid to understand, but why the feth are people treating GW and FW as separate, anyway? It's all Warhammer 40K, published by Games Workshop. There are bad rules and broken units everywhere. Does being in a separate book with a fancy logo somehow make it magically different?

"Yes" - The collective 40k community

 Selym wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Maybe I'm too stupid to understand, but why the feth are people treating GW and FW as separate, anyway? It's all Warhammer 40K, published by Games Workshop. There are bad rules and broken units everywhere. Does being in a separate book with a fancy logo somehow make it magically different?

"Yes" - The collective 40k community

Don't lump me in with 'the collective 40k community'. I said twice it's silly to separate them.

Honestly, I don't even know why GW itself bothers with pretending FW is a separate entity, especially with how some units have repeatedly hopped back and forth between GW and FW (looking at you, Vendetta). Just throw all that stuff into the codexes already. Make a Codex: Elysians and Codex: DKoK if you have to.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Maybe I'm too stupid to understand, but why the feth are people treating GW and FW as separate, anyway? It's all Warhammer 40K, published by Games Workshop. There are bad rules and broken units everywhere. Does being in a separate book with a fancy logo somehow make it magically different?

"Yes" - The collective 40k community

Don't lump me in with 'the collective 40k community'. I said twice it's silly to separate them.

Collectiveness does not imply a unanimous opinion - just a majority consensus. The number of times I've been told that it's wrong to use FW, or that it should be banned, or that it is OP...

 ross-128 wrote:
Honestly, I don't even know why GW itself bothers with pretending FW is a separate entity, especially with how some units have repeatedly hopped back and forth between GW and FW (looking at you, Vendetta). Just throw all that stuff into the codexes already. Make a Codex: Elysians and Codex: DKoK if you have to.

Yeah. They should just fold all FW's 40K stuff into normal codices and let the GW's main team handle the rules. FW could concentrate on making models and perhaps write rules for HH stuff (I don't care about that.)

 Mulletdude wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

ITC has decided for the BAO that they won't allow any single model with a PL of 31 and up, which eliminates a lot of the super huge FW units. I expect we will see more tournaments do this and it will start to become the norm in matched play.

Do you have a source for that? I looked through the BAO post and nothing like that is mentioned at all.

 Marmatag wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

ITC has decided for the BAO that they won't allow any single model with a PL of 31 and up, which eliminates a lot of the super huge FW units. I expect we will see more tournaments do this and it will start to become the norm in matched play.

What happened to ITC having a vote on this kind of stuff? My "ban Forgeworld completely" vote should be counted.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/07/10/signals-from-the-frontline-547-bao-format-poll-is-in/

Everyone going to the BAO got a vote and it was clear what the players going wanted. "Ban FW completely" is unrealistic as, with everything 40k, some things are overpowers and some things are underpowered so it is silly to just throw it all out.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

5x the options = broken OP combos

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

Except the FW variants for the Wraithknight and Riptide weren't anymore broken than the regular versions, hence why they didn't appear very often in lists.

So go ahead and start name dropping everything that was broken from FW in 6th/7th So we can all see how ridiculous youre being. I'll wait. I don't have work today.

Nice I get to use my Ta'unar for one big bang in my local and then to the shelf you go unless its for apoc games.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

5x the options = broken OP combos

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

No idea what I just read. I played MTG for ten years, and the playerbase is just FINE playing with overpowered cards and combo decks. Sure, some people whine and cry about certain archetypes, but in the most competitive setting, players still usually have between 6-8 builds to choose from, and most of the time the winning deck cycles between those 6-8 builds. There will ALWAYS be certain strategies in ANY game system that are stronger than others. Banning every card that is "strong" is not what WotC does without a ton of data and time, and even then, the card has to be so game-breaking that it completely dominates the tournament scene. Tournament organizers at most of the big 40k tournaments, namely ITC and NOVA, have modified the rules for certain units and models, so there is already competitive balancing being done.

The MLB aluminum bat statement is just ridiculous.

Tournaments are played with the core releases only in MTG. They don't allow last years cards or the previous years cards. You are right though - they will play with their broken decks combining multiple seasons of cards into 1 deck causally against each other - for SNG's. Just like you could do with all your forge world models at your local group too - thats where 95% of games are played anyways. Was just looking at the fellblade with twin volcano cannons. You really want to see models like this at every table at an ITC/Nova event?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

5x the options = broken OP combos

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

No idea what I just read. I played MTG for ten years, and the playerbase is just FINE playing with overpowered cards and combo decks. Sure, some people whine and cry about certain archetypes, but in the most competitive setting, players still usually have between 6-8 builds to choose from, and most of the time the winning deck cycles between those 6-8 builds. There will ALWAYS be certain strategies in ANY game system that are stronger than others. Banning every card that is "strong" is not what WotC does without a ton of data and time, and even then, the card has to be so game-breaking that it completely dominates the tournament scene. Tournament organizers at most of the big 40k tournaments, namely ITC and NOVA, have modified the rules for certain units and models, so there is already competitive balancing being done.

The MLB aluminum bat statement is just ridiculous.

Tournaments are played with the core releases only in MTG. They don't allow last years cards or the previous years cards. You are right though - they will play with their broken decks combining multiple seasons of cards into 1 deck causally against each other - for SNG's. Just like you could do with all your forge world models at your local group too - thats where 95% of games are played anyways. Was just looking at the fellblade with twin volcano cannons. You really want to see models like this at every table at an ITC/Nova event?

Vintage and Modern tournaments certainly do, with the strongest and most expensive cards a staple.

Regardless, what I expect the strongest and best lists at a tournament, because there is absolutely NO reason not to take the strongest and best. Tournaments are supposed to be cutthroat - the point is to win. Complaining about wanting to win at a tournament you paid for and likely traveled a long distance to is perfectly fine and reasonable.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

That's a bad analogy, because almost all of the units that have existed for the last several editions still exist on some form or another, and the rules have been updated THIS edition. MtG probably wouldn't be so bad across multiple blocks if they put out errata for each and every card changing the rules to make it valid for the new edition. Or maybe it would be.

At any rate, if 40k was MtG, the only valid SM units available to you should be the Scions and Primaris ones. Of course, you'd think that the former was the case from looking at the tactics subforum.

5x the options = broken OP combos

When you're comparing subsets developed in a vaccum to each other, yes. GW/FW is not that.

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

Can you judge the merits of 8th edition FW units on 8th edition FW units and not history?

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

Barring a situation where you give the shortstop a rapier and allow the runner to keep his bat while he runs from base to base, baseball will always be boring.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

Only things I'm aware of that are probably on the edge of "clearly better" than they should be are the Vulture and the Sabre Searchlights. I say "probably on the edge" because I'm still not able to wrap my brain around a world where we pat ourselves on the back for being tactical geniuses by shoehorning as many plasma-scions into a list like it's reasonable, yet we draw the line at these other units simply because they're on the other side of some borderline imaginary fence.

How about you talk to us about what's better than the GW option? You know, articulate a little and describe where specifically you're seeing a problem?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Maybe I'm too stupid to understand, but why the feth are people treating GW and FW as separate, anyway? It's all Warhammer 40K, published by Games Workshop. There are bad rules and broken units everywhere. Does being in a separate book with a fancy logo somehow make it magically different?

Because for all intents and purposes they are separate companies. A lot of problems could have been avoided if, say, GWs playtesting of the 8th edition would have included FWs uniys, and if FW staff would have had access to the 8th edition rules prior to GW's customers.

Instead FW had to rush out indexes that were neither playtested not proof-read.

pismakron wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Maybe I'm too stupid to understand, but why the feth are people treating GW and FW as separate, anyway? It's all Warhammer 40K, published by Games Workshop. There are bad rules and broken units everywhere. Does being in a separate book with a fancy logo somehow make it magically different?

Because for all intents and purposes they are separate companies. A lot of problems could have been avoided if, say, GWs playtesting of the 8th edition would have included FWs uniys, and if FW staff would have had access to the 8th edition rules prior to GW's customers.

Instead FW had to rush out indexes that were neither playtested not proof-read.

So now ask why yourself WHY they had to rush things out. Demands from GW, a very tight deadline, the new edition, loss of sales because people weren't buying FW models without knowing what they were getting, etc. I blame GW for the rushed releases, rebalancing and repointing EVERY FW model is a huge task.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright forgeworld defenders.

I'm going to make an analogy comparing warhammer to magic the gathering.

Consider the current indexes your legal cards to play in the core block. Combinations are limited - some things just can not be done. Then lets say we go to a tpye 2 format and the last 3-4 blocks are now legal (basically like allowing forge world into tournaments) Current competitive decks are now trash - their combos are outdone by synergies with other blocks being better - stupid things start happening - like hands that are drawn that can't possibly lose. Not because any particular card is overpowered anymore than the current block - only because their synergies are more powerful. Magic players would laugh at anyone trying to play cards out of the current core block - they say - that's stupid. It's not like they don't have other cards ether - they just know it will become unbalanced.

5x the options = broken OP combos

Then lets also factor in the fact that when FW models are OP...they are clearly OP. This is basically indisputable.

look at 7th edition with eldar hornets. Eldar FW WK (taking already brokenly OP GW WK and turning it up to 11 for the same cost). Tau riptides turned up to 11 (oh but experimental rules are legal now) It's a load of gak and it's not competitive.

I mean... we could start letting major league baseball use aluminum bats - however I think things would probably start getting boring once every other at bat becomes a home run.

FW clearly better than the GW option = exceptionally dumb and shouldn't be allowed.

Except the FW variants for the Wraithknight and Riptide weren't anymore broken than the regular versions, hence why they didn't appear very often in lists.

So go ahead and start name dropping everything that was broken from FW in 6th/7th So we can all see how ridiculous youre being. I'll wait. I don't have work today.

I can name you countless FW models that are better than there GW counterparts - it's not even worth my time to do so. There was maybe about a 6 month period where GW stuff became competitive because they started handing out free transports and free stats - in formations just to complete with the FW nonsense. Interestingly the FW nonsense wasn't allowed to use the formation rules. I WONDER WHY. I'm sure you are familiar with the WK that had 2 apoc flamers with str 7 rending - that moved faster than a standard WK - and could leave combat double flame something with apoc templates and recharge again right? That's not better than your standard WK? Give me a break. Oh and the Yvara riptide? With 2 str 6 ap2 flamers and other weapons - that were also really good for no reason....that could just skyleap away and come back in the next turn if it was in trouble? You actually want to defend eldar hornets? The librarian that could pick his spells and has a 2++ save? Come on man - not even worth going into 8th edition FW because it's about twice as bad as it used to be.

The idea that FW didn't have early access to the rules is complete bollocks.

The index is the core rules and eventually the codex...never once did I say - lets disect the index.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I can name you countless FW models that are better than there GW counterparts - it's not even worth my time to do so. There was maybe about a 6 month period where GW stuff became competitive because they started handing out free transports and free stats - in formations just to complete with the FW nonsense. Interestingly the FW nonsense wasn't allowed to use the formation rules. I WONDER WHY. I'm sure you are familiar with the WK that had 2 apoc flamers with str 7 rending - that moved faster than a standard WK - and could leave combat double flame something with apoc templates and recharge again right? That's not better than your standard WK? Give me a break. Oh and the Yvara riptide? With 2 str 6 ap2 flamers and other weapons - that were also really good for no reason....that could just skyleap away and come back in the next turn if it was in trouble? You actually want to defend eldar hornets? The librarian that could pick his spells and has a 2++ save? Come on man - not even worth going into 8th edition FW because it's about twice as bad as it used to be.

Ladies and gentlemen, I want to take this time to point out that this is the same guy who can't understand why anyone would ever use a powerfist in 8th. Now, read the bolded part of the quote and then go back and reread the unbolded part of the quote.

Just food for thought.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Come on man - not even worth going into 8th edition FW because it's about twice as bad as it used to be.

Except a majority of FW stuff in 8th isn't overpowered, it's just a small amount of them that are absurd and need balancing.

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't need to provide evidence to back up my assertion, because I am right.

Basic ad-hominem attack.

Quality Dakka discussion

What are we acxtually looking at that is GENUINELY op, i've only got the Space marines FW Index and i'm not seeing much. Unless we're talking about people bringing 800 pt models to 1000pt games but we all know that is a core rules issue not a FW issue.

Hell the most expensive thing space marines get is a Mastodon and i wouldn't take that for anything other than a narrative game because it's mediocre as all hell

 Selym wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't need to provide evidence to back up my assertion, because I am right.

Basic ad-hominem attack.

Quality Dakka discussion

So what do you call taking someones words out of context putting them into your own words completely changing the meaning. This is basically the king of logical fallacy here - false quotation? Lies? This is pretty hilarious. I'm statings facts. There are numerous FW units that can mathematically be proven to be better than their codex equivalents in 7th and 8th. So many that I am not going to list them all. Feel free to dispute this - though it's not disputable. I will prove you wrong on a point by point basis if necessary.

Also nothing I said in this discussion could be labeled ad hominem. I try to refrain from logical fallacy because it weaken any arguments position.

I could have said something like...."I'm sure you have 20 of the most OP forge world units from 7th edition so your opinion is invalid" but I didn't. If you're going to attack someones arguments - at least use a valid attack.