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How many units actually have this rule?

I know several armies got the shaft and can't pick out characters.
As well as how many are effective at long range shooting, like the assassin?
Deathmarks are 24" which is maybe one turn to kill their target. While standard imperial rifles are 36".

Standard Imperial sniper rifles are 36''.
AdMech have their large sniper rifles which are pretty deadly, same with the vindicare assassin.
I think that's it for the Imperium, not that it's lacking in any way.

None. The ability to target characters tends to be on the weapon not the unit, and the Imperium, Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau all have access to one or more such weapons.

That said, I'm still thoroughly unimpressed with sniper weapons. Mortal Wounds on 6's is nice, but generally they all have a Heavy 1, S4, AP0, D1 profile which means you'll generally not be doing much of anything.

Yea Orks have no sniper units, maybe we will get sniper grots in the new codex?

That said, I haven't seen snipers be that good so far although I do usually use a lot of terrain.

Killing a character is great if you can do it in one turn, but usually doesn't cripple the entire army. Snipers are pretty rubbish against the horde of slugga boys that I invariably bring to the table!

It's almost as if they expected snipers to be shooting single wound models. If it was d3 mortal wounds on a 6, or d3 normal wounds that would probably be fine.

Drager wrote:
It's almost as if they expected snipers to be shooting single wound models. If it was d3 mortal wounds on a 6, or d3 normal wounds that would probably be fine.

I think that would make them too powerful against Characters. They are for finishing off a wounded character or whittling them down over the course of the battle, not dropping them in a single volley. Sniper units generally weigh in around 100-ish points (depending on the army). Most characters cost more than this. It would be broken for a 100 point unit to kill a more expensive unit reliably in just 1 or 2 turns.

Snipers have a role but you don't want them to be too good at it or Characters become pointless. Eldar Warlocks are pretty vulnerable with T3, 2 wounds and a 4+ save. If you want something that can kill powerful characters faster, you should be taking the Vindicare as that is his job.

Most sniper-type weapons also come in multiple-model units.

The Vindicare is a single model so his weapon does more damage.

It makes balancing sense.

5 bs3+ sniper rifles are likely to wound with 2 damage. The Vindicare averages 2 damage. Lucky head-shots(6+ to wound) deals extra damage.

This is all fine.

So overall are snipers even worth taking? It seems like 1-2 wounds a turn on average wouldn't kill a commissar till turn 3, which the game should be clear by then and CC started.

Would be worth more in the current state if they could shoot regular squads but pick their target on wound of a 6 with the mortal wound.

Ratlings, Death Marks, Sniper Drones, Scouts, Vindicare

shank911 wrote:
So overall are snipers even worth taking? It seems like 1-2 wounds a turn on average wouldn't kill a commissar till turn 3, which the game should be clear by then and CC started.

Would be worth more in the current state if they could shoot regular squads but pick their target on wound of a 6 with the mortal wound.

1) yes, they are still worth taking. The 2 damage per turn is more of an expected result, it is if all of your dice fall in the nice neat little 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 pattern. That will never happen(ok it could but the odds there are ridiculously low); instead you will find that your snipers are killing a commissar or commander far sooner than your banked outcome.

2) it is better in its current state: roll a 6 to-wound and your opponent allocates and attempts a save with the normal damage and then the mortal wound damages that model as well, or another model in the unit. Against 1w targets you have a decent chance to kill 2 models when rolling a 6+ to wound.

And that last post made me intone in my best impression of the Unreal Tournament announcer saying "Double Kill!".

shank911 wrote:
How many units actually have this rule?

I know several armies got the shaft and can't pick out characters.
As well as how many are effective at long range shooting, like the assassin?
Deathmarks are 24" which is maybe one turn to kill their target. While standard imperial rifles are r8".

No they aren't, imperial rifles are 36" range. No idea how you are getting 8" range.

I think he was thinking 18" but that'd still be wrong yeah.

Scout snipers are always excellent choices for marine armies even without the ability to snipe at characters.

shank911 wrote:
So overall are snipers even worth taking? It seems like 1-2 wounds a turn on average wouldn't kill a commissar till turn 3, which the game should be clear by then and CC started.

Would be worth more in the current state if they could shoot regular squads but pick their target on wound of a 6 with the mortal wound.

They are currently the only thing that can target a character who's not the closest target at range, so yeah, they are pretty useful.

shank911 wrote:
How many units actually have this rule?

I know several armies got the shaft and can't pick out characters.
As well as how many are effective at long range shooting, like the assassin?
Deathmarks are 24" which is maybe one turn to kill their target. While standard imperial rifles are r8".

Deathmarks are easily one of the best sniper units in the game.

Their range is only 24", but their counter-deepstrike rule entirely makes up for it. Additionally, on the necron turn, they can benefit from My Will Be Done which pushes their mortal wound special rule activation from a 6+ to a 5+.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

shank911 wrote:
So overall are snipers even worth taking? It seems like 1-2 wounds a turn on average wouldn't kill a commissar till turn 3, which the game should be clear by then and CC started.

Would be worth more in the current state if they could shoot regular squads but pick their target on wound of a 6 with the mortal wound.

1) yes, they are still worth taking. The 2 damage per turn is more of an expected result, it is if all of your dice fall in the nice neat little 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 pattern. That will never happen(ok it could but the odds there are ridiculously low); instead you will find that your snipers are killing a commissar or commander far sooner than your banked outcome.

2) it is better in its current state: roll a 6 to-wound and your opponent allocates and attempts a save with the normal damage and then the mortal wound damages that model as well, or another model in the unit. Against 1w targets you have a decent chance to kill 2 models when rolling a 6+ to wound.

Where on earth are you getting these silly numbers from? A squad of 5 Eldar Rangers will struggle to put more than a single wound on a Space Marine character per turn and will generate only 1 mortal wound every other turn at best.

Rangers do pay a lot for the ability to deep strike and have camo cloaks.

 Imateria wrote:

Where on earth are you getting these silly numbers from? A squad of 5 Eldar Rangers will struggle to put more than a single wound on a Space Marine character per turn and will generate only 1 mortal wound every other turn at best.

Not everything is a space marine. Killing a commissar or a nob with waaagh banner can swing a battle considerably.

I agree, Sniper Rifles are somewhat weak. They should be S5 and/or AP-1.

Thing is, when you have weak sniper rifles like the actual ones, you usually have access to it for a whole squad. I faced one list with Sergeant Telion and 10 Scouts with sniper rifles, embarked in an Imperial Bastion. 11 Snipers that hit on 2+ and they are untargetable. They made short work of most of my characters due to the average of 3 mortal wounds and a few more regular wounds.

When you have good sniper rifles like the Transuranic Arquebus or the Exitus Rifle, well suddenly they are only usable by packs of two (for 50 pts) or only one Vindicare. Granted you can take multiple Vindicares now. Snipers were never intended to be able to one-shot characters all the time, that would be broken as hell. Of course it's still possible and more likely with the good sniper rifles, but they're a kind of psychological weapon that makes your opponent think twice about how they're going to deploy and/or move their characters.

I personally think snipers are fine. Mine miss half their shots and wounds anyway

p5freak wrote:
I agree, Sniper Rifles are somewhat weak. They should be S5 and/or AP-1.

S4 makes them a boltgun.

Not that boltguns are accurately depicted...

I agree with Aaranis, Sniper Rifles work more as a psicological weapon than a effective one. They create "danger zones" for important characters for your opponent, and they need to take the risk to enter that zone or change their battleplans. Something that can be a greater advantage, even more that actually killing the character.

Snipers are, justlike in the past, just not good enough.

They are good at picking off wounded characters-but there is little ways to get the character wounded to begin with except even more snipers.

And the vast majority of snipers in the game right now just have poor damage output. they don't create ENOUGH pressure to make people not just walk right into their zones knowing they are in no real danger.

They need to be more powerful, not in order to actually kill characters left and right, but in order to pose a credible threat that will cause people to pause, and perhaps not risk going near with someone they can't afford to lose until the sniper was dealt with.

Aaranis wrote:Thing is, when you have weak sniper rifles like the actual ones, you usually have access to it for a whole squad. I faced one list with Sergeant Telion and 10 Scouts with sniper rifles, embarked in an Imperial Bastion. 11 Snipers that hit on 2+ and they are untargetable. They made short work of most of my characters due to the average of 3 mortal wounds and a few more regular wounds.

They may be untargetable, but they still need LOS to shoot. Dont give them LOS on your Character(s). However, there should be a way to attack them. Its possible to kill Units in Bunkers, with Flamers, or Grenades.

p5freak wrote:

Aaranis wrote:Thing is, when you have weak sniper rifles like the actual ones, you usually have access to it for a whole squad. I faced one list with Sergeant Telion and 10 Scouts with sniper rifles, embarked in an Imperial Bastion. 11 Snipers that hit on 2+ and they are untargetable. They made short work of most of my characters due to the average of 3 mortal wounds and a few more regular wounds.

They may be untargetable, but they still need LOS to shoot. Dont give them LOS on your Character(s). However, there should be a way to attack them. Its possible to kill Units in Bunkers, with Flamers, or Grenades.

You have to know that his list at the time was 1 Bastion with the aforementioned Scout team & Telion, 1 Plasma Obliterator, 1 Firestorm Redoubt, 1 Stormlord and 9 Heavy Weapons Team. If I wanted to do something I had to get in LoS someday

If you roll nicely on your Snipers you CAN one shot a character with enough of those, there are squishy characters too. I reduced a Primaris Captain to 1W with one salvo from my Arquebuses, and he died later in CC when one of my vehicles exploded.

 Imateria wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

shank911 wrote:
So overall are snipers even worth taking? It seems like 1-2 wounds a turn on average wouldn't kill a commissar till turn 3, which the game should be clear by then and CC started.

Would be worth more in the current state if they could shoot regular squads but pick their target on wound of a 6 with the mortal wound.

1) yes, they are still worth taking. The 2 damage per turn is more of an expected result, it is if all of your dice fall in the nice neat little 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 pattern. That will never happen(ok it could but the odds there are ridiculously low); instead you will find that your snipers are killing a commissar or commander far sooner than your banked outcome.

2) it is better in its current state: roll a 6 to-wound and your opponent allocates and attempts a save with the normal damage and then the mortal wound damages that model as well, or another model in the unit. Against 1w targets you have a decent chance to kill 2 models when rolling a 6+ to wound.

Where on earth are you getting these silly numbers from? A squad of 5 Eldar Rangers will struggle to put more than a single wound on a Space Marine character per turn and will generate only 1 mortal wound every other turn at best.

1) read a thread before you respond, you will look less foolish. Op was talking about damage to a commissar.

2) 5 bs 3+ single shot sniper types put 1.48148 aggregate average wounds onto said commissar per turn of shoooting(1.11111 on a lord commissar) that translates to 1-2 wounds per turn as stated in the post before the post I was replying to in the above quote.

3) Aggregate averages are not representative of actual results, more often than not you will see a higher instance of success in a d6 system than failure when you start averaging real results(as stated in the quoted post). So you can rely more on 2 wounds per turn while every once in a while not even hitting with a single shot.

4) if you are going to look at the instance of mortal wound as every other turn you split that into .5(or rather .5555) mortal wounds per turn adding it to the1.48148 unsabed wounds per turn to the commissar. Thus: 2w per turn.

Sniper weapons are an edge against character driven armies. Not a cure-all sledgehammer of easy kills.

Me, I play Thousand Sons, so I have to think of other ways round characters dishing out buffs. Currently, that plan is 'send Magnus to go and kick their teeth in'.

Or potentially try to do my damage in such a way the character becomes exposed, hopefully whilst I've still got some dakka to throw their way in that turn.

If Sniper weapons were truly deadly, and everyone had easy access, Characters would suffer. And given most characters offer some kind of buff bubble, and learning how to use those bubbles to overlapping effect is key to a good game now, would break the game.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

3) Aggregate averages are not representative of actual results, more often than not you will see a higher instance of success in a d6 system than failure when you start averaging real results(as stated in the quoted post). So you can rely more on 2 wounds per turn while every once in a while not even hitting with a single shot.

If this is true it is interesting. Do you have a source?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

shank911 wrote:
So overall are snipers even worth taking? It seems like 1-2 wounds a turn on average wouldn't kill a commissar till turn 3, which the game should be clear by then and CC started.

Would be worth more in the current state if they could shoot regular squads but pick their target on wound of a 6 with the mortal wound.

1) yes, they are still worth taking. The 2 damage per turn is more of an expected result, it is if all of your dice fall in the nice neat little 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 pattern. That will never happen(ok it could but the odds there are ridiculously low); instead you will find that your snipers are killing a commissar or commander far sooner than your banked outcome.

2) it is better in its current state: roll a 6 to-wound and your opponent allocates and attempts a save with the normal damage and then the mortal wound damages that model as well, or another model in the unit. Against 1w targets you have a decent chance to kill 2 models when rolling a 6+ to wound.

Where on earth are you getting these silly numbers from? A squad of 5 Eldar Rangers will struggle to put more than a single wound on a Space Marine character per turn and will generate only 1 mortal wound every other turn at best.

1) read a thread before you respond, you will look less foolish. Op was talking about damage to a commissar.

2) 5 bs 3+ single shot sniper types put 1.48148 aggregate average wounds onto said commissar per turn of shoooting(1.11111 on a lord commissar) that translates to 1-2 wounds per turn as stated in the post before the post I was replying to in the above quote.

3) Aggregate averages are not representative of actual results, more often than not you will see a higher instance of success in a d6 system than failure when you start averaging real results(as stated in the quoted post). So you can rely more on 2 wounds per turn while every once in a while not even hitting with a single shot.

4) if you are going to look at the instance of mortal wound as every other turn you split that into .5(or rather .5555) mortal wounds per turn adding it to the1.48148 unsabed wounds per turn to the commissar. Thus: 2w per turn.

Great. Do you play nothing but Imperial Guard with conscript blobs and Commissars? No, so don't use the weakest possible target as a base line (I read shank's post with the commissar as an example, not as his usual target). This thread is about snipers in general, which you should no if you'd bothered to pay attention.

I used Space Marines because they're the most common example but I'm also quite likely to end up shooting at Tau Commanders and Necron Lords, which at T5 are even harder to do wounds to. So yes, if T3 5+Sv Commissars are what you regularly face then feel free to use Snipers, for anything else there are better uses for the points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sniper weapons are an edge against character driven armies. Not a cure-all sledgehammer of easy kills.

Me, I play Thousand Sons, so I have to think of other ways round characters dishing out buffs. Currently, that plan is 'send Magnus to go and kick their teeth in'.

Or potentially try to do my damage in such a way the character becomes exposed, hopefully whilst I've still got some dakka to throw their way in that turn.

If Sniper weapons were truly deadly, and everyone had easy access, Characters would suffer. And given most characters offer some kind of buff bubble, and learning how to use those bubbles to overlapping effect is key to a good game now, would break the game.

True, but I think at this point they need a slight buff, they're no threat at all to most characters.

Drager: it has to do with chaos theory: the initial conditions and the specific conditions of the roll(your individual dice, how many you hold at a time, shape of your hand or depth/width of your cup, the surface you roll on, etc). Combined with years of experience in gaming(war and rpg). These are the reasons why I have started to add Aggregate before average when discussing pure math-hammer and why I have never really put much stock in math-hammer to begin with.

For example: lets look at pre 8th twin-linked vs 2 weapons; twin linked gains a higher chance of hitting that had diminishing returns on higher bs models(tl bs 4 would come very close to guaranteeing a single hit per shot, but as you were already hitting at generally more than 2/3rds in practice to begin with it only really mattered on single-shot weapons), but 2 of the same weapon has the same statistical chance to hit with a further chance to hit twice. Both high and low bs models hit more often with 8ths twin weapons than they did with the older tl(part of that is they ate fully doubling the attempts instead of only rerolling failures).

Imaterium: you still didn't read. Op was talking about commissars. Read or sit down.