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Tylendal wrote:

pismakron wrote:


Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

What about Stormboyz? The Boss Nob could chunk some wounds from a flyer with his Big Choppa or Power Claw, while even at only 5+ to wound, the sheer number of attacks coming from the Boyz would do some damage.
You've also got Deffkoptas. Their Spinnin' Blades aren't bad, and if you take a Killsaw they could pretty reliably pile some wounds on. On top of that, on the off chance they manage to actually hit a flyer, their ranged weapons would do some serious damage.

Deffkoptas are totally useless against flyers. With a killsaw it is a fragile 80 point model with two base attacks hitting on 4+ with a damage of D2. Stormboyz could in theory work, but you really need to cripple the flyer on the charge, because next turn he will be shooting at you from way out of charge range. So you need at least 60 stormboyz with a bunch of nobz to take out a single stormraven, and that is only if he doesn't shoot at the stormboyz first and if you lose nothing in overwatch.

You can probably put together a dedicated anti-flyer Ork list, but it will work extremely poorly against any list without flyers. Your best bet is probably to buy a load of OP Forgeworld stuff. Like a bunch af killbursta tanks and lifta-droppas. But pay to win us no fun and it is also pretty expensive.

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

The op was referring to "airborne" flyers with the "hard to hit" rule.

Orks really has only two options when it comes to those fliers. Play maelstrom or concede. Regards

Chaos lord on a Disc of Tzeentch. I'll just Powerfist planes out of the sky.

IronNerd wrote:
I've only played 3 games of 8th so far. One of those was going up against 3 Stormravens. After that game, yes, I will be politely declining to play against anyone with several fliers. They are far too effective for their point cost. As to the argument that they are necessary because there is other "broken" stuff, I don't want to have to play one of the skews to be effective. Plus, I'm not seeing a good option in Death Guard for dealing with them...

You don't think that's even a little bit of a knee jerk reaction after three games with only one against a 3 flyer list? You have Heldrakes, Havocs, Tanks, Soul Grinders, Helbrutes, and Deamon Princes for Death Guard anti-air, not to mention all the other guns everything else is holding can now shoot at the flyers with MEQ hitting on 4s. Chaos is overburdened with options for taking out pretty much anything, you just have to know how to use it. You mentioned Death Guard and may think taking one unit of something with the Death Guard legion stops you from taking something without it, but it does not. You can have your Death Guard units and another Legion of something or other.

Orks have a bit of a problem versus flyers. Our shooting is more heavily suppressed by the -1 to hit than other factions. Normally, 2 5+ to hit shots are equivalent to a 3+ to hit, but 3 6+ to hit are equivalent to one 4+ to hit. In addition to that, we don't have access to many shooting rerolls outside of tankbustas. The dakkajet would be a fine anti-aircraft platform if flyers were limited to T6 or less, but the T7 flyers are too tough for it's primary role.

Weirdboyz are the only real Ork solution outside of the forge world lifta-droppa. The reliable smites that they put out are unusually effective versus the flyer rules that require them to move forward in front of the rest of their army.

Its sad to hear this about flyer. My Elysian drop troops lacks any other ways to bring enough support in order for the squishy guardsmen too survive...

Flyers combine 3 things that are really hard to deal with. High chance to go first + huge move + heavy firepower. This makes it easy for fliers to deal a deathblow to units that can shoot them down. Then if the succeed at that - it's basically game over for the opponent.

40k hasn't changed much - it's all about the alpha strike - building lists that mitigate alpha strike damage is going to be key to make competitive lists. My personal favorite is spamming lascannon dev squads around guilliman and an ancient.

Wipe a Dev unit? heres 2 las cannons back at you that reroll hits and wounds. Throw a cheap apoth in there to keep up the madness if you want also.

For guard players. Check out armored sentinels. 50 points with a las cannon - could easily fit 12 into a list without hurting yourself. They can't alpha strike that. Melta vets in Chimeras should do well too.

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

I don't play at tournaments.

If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

I gotta say that I think my Valkyries are underpriced. But that's not due to their firepower which is quite lackluster, it's because of their gravchute rule which is quite frankly ridiculously good. Remember they only hit on 5s while they're supersonic as all their weapons are Heavy. I think some of the Astartes flyers have PotMS negating that, but eg Stormtalons don't.

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

Pretty much this.

I will probably get one or two Flyers just to complete my army. Possibly four, one of each Ork flyer.

Annoyed my Traktors don't +1 to hit against Airborne units. I would be cool with that (not necessarily Fly units, since then I can fire at say Assault Marines and the like).

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

never played with or against flyers anyhow, never really felt the belonged in 40k. Something about air support and such kind of moved the game away from small battles to me.

Git Gud.

Flyers(some flyers) are pretty good but they're not the be all end all. I've played multiple games against fliers and really, once you do 6-7 wounds to one they basically become a non-factor.

Flyer spam is a bit different but not insurmountable either.

pismakron wrote:

Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

Kustom Mega-kannons work pretty well. You get 5 per Stormraven.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

I don't play at tournaments.

Holy gak, if you don't play at tournaments why do you care what's good or not? It's not like whether or not you win has any real meaning.

The existence of Flyers isn't the problem. The existence of easy alpha-strike tank killers on Flyers (e.g. Dark Talons, Hemlocks), the easy Flyer-spam detachment (resulting in skew lists that are extremely difficult for a TAC list to counter), and overly fast aggro-melee Flyers (e.g. Heldrakes, Daemon Princes) are the problems.

I'm not about to straight-up refuse to play against Flyers, but I will look askance at things like two-Heldrake lists or Flyer-detachment-only lists.

pismakron wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

Um...traktor beams don't give a +1 to hit?

But they do cause enemy flyers to automatically crash and burn. Which can be a ton of fun...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

I don't play at tournaments.

That's not the point. You don't have to play against armies with flyers, but this can also work against you if you're the guy that constantly bails because a guy has a flyer. Most players are pretty chill and would likely swap some flyers for other things if you wanted a more "you" friendly game. However, you have to understand that the game is meant to be fun even if you lose. Sure it's depressing if all you play against are flyers and lose, but make it an opportunity to make some friends that will make it fun to play. Not everyone is a fly spammy dill-pickle ready to annihilate you.

 Arandmoor wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

Um...traktor beams don't give a +1 to hit?

But they do cause enemy flyers to automatically crash and burn. Which can be a ton of fun...

Only after reducing it to 0 wounds which is almost but not quite the same thing.

That said Mek Gunz are like characters (as in, if they're not the closest unit, they can't be targeted). So they can stick around for at least a turn or two if the Stormravens haven't deleted the rest of the army.

I played a flyer list this weekend and decimated him even with Tau. Granted it wasn't "the" cheesy list but fairly close. I think the guy got stomped pretty easily.

Just up your ranged anti-tank game. Look for the most cost effective thing in your army to bring them down and focus as much firepower on them as possible.

Prioritise the weaker ones (unless you know you can bring down the bigger ones in an alpha strike) this way his firepower lessens over the game faster.

The nids player also won against him through sheer attrition and victory points. I don't know who he got his win against.

When faces with diversity I figure out how to beat it,I don't hide from it.

So no. I've had a couple matches against flyer lists and dark lights and proper positioning dealt with them pretty quick

I wonder how you managed to survive in the previous editions though when flyers were a straight 6 to hit all the time.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
When faces with diversity I figure out how to beat it,I don't hide from it.

So no. I've had a couple matches against flyer lists and dark lights and proper positioning dealt with them pretty quick

I wonder how you managed to survive in the previous editions though when flyers were a straight 6 to hit all the time.

Last time i played 40k flyers didn't exist at 40k scale.

Eh, I'm not intimidated by them.

No.

I'm willing re-build my list if you don't like Forgeworld, but not just because you don't like the models I brought because you're looking for easy wins.

easy solution "non infantry fliers cannot capture objectives"

I mean try and take and hold a hill in a F-15 ain't gonna happen

 3orangewhips wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

So, this becomes a simple conversation with the person you're playing. "Hey man, that flyer really kills the game for me - can you run a list without it?" or "Hey boss, the last time I played against an army fielding that flyer/those flyers, it was really boring/awful, so I'll pass."

Playing a list of just flyers reminds me of the worst parts of playing battlefield 3. You might win, but it doesn't feel like the kind of game I signed up for.

smite is a good for taking a bit out of a flying unit.

I have a question for those who have charged an airborne unit. If you have a squad of infantry with the fly keyword and you make a charge....do you surround the base or just any place under the flyer hull?

I assume the base. But what if you modeled your jump pack units to have a long rod to set them 12" above the tabletop so that you can touch the hull of the airborne unit?

I only glanced at the rules for them so may have missed something.