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sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Those are also assault armies. Funny thing about the character targeting immunity... it doesn't apply to assault. If you charge and pull the commissar into a melee, you can punch him.

Since he's a separate unit from the conscripts, you can allocate those melee attacks onto him on purpose and your opponent won't be able to use wound allocation shenanigans to deflect them. A commissar can die very fast in melee.

If the AM player places his commissar anywhere near melee range. But that won't happen.

If you have enough charge range, you can just declare the commissar as one of your charge targets. It's not like one commissar will contribute much to the overwatch, and if there are gaps wide enough to fit a base through, which there will be if the conscripts are being used as bubble wrapping, some of your charging units can just go through those to reach the commissar (because they can get within 1" during a charge). Or you can just use anything with the Fly keyword to hop over the conscripts and charge them from the side the commissar is on, or use deep striking to pop up behind them.

If the commissar is in the center of the conscript unit to prevent those things, then simply declaring him one of the charge targets will work. Reaching the conscript blob will count as a successful charge, and you'll be able to get to him with your pile-in move.

 ross-128 wrote:

sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Those are also assault armies. Funny thing about the character targeting immunity... it doesn't apply to assault. If you charge and pull the commissar into a melee, you can punch him.

Since he's a separate unit from the conscripts, you can allocate those melee attacks onto him on purpose and your opponent won't be able to use wound allocation shenanigans to deflect them. A commissar can die very fast in melee.

If the AM player places his commissar anywhere near melee range. But that won't happen.

If you have enough charge range, you can just declare the commissar as one of your charge targets. It's not like one commissar will contribute much to the overwatch, and if there are gaps wide enough to fit a base through, which there will be if the conscripts are being used as bubble wrapping, some of your charging units can just go through those to reach the commissar (because they can get within 1" during a charge). Or you can just use anything with the Fly keyword to hop over the conscripts and charge them from the side the commissar is on, or use deep striking to pop up behind them.

If the commissar is in the center of the conscript unit to prevent those things, then simply declaring him one of the charge targets will work. Reaching the conscript blob will count as a successful charge, and you'll be able to get to him with your pile-in move.

If you play against an AM player that makes a mistake like this, then count yourself lucky. There's nothing that forces him to leave base-wide gaps in his conscript line. Jump pack infantry might work, otherwise no.

My one complaint regarding Conscripts is that I don't think they should be a normal Troop choice. I'd have something like: 'For every 2 Infantry Squads you take, your army may include one unit of Conscripts that doesn't use up a FoC slot'.

This would mean that you can't have Conscripts as your sole troop choice and also means that you can't use them to fulfil Troop requirements in a Brigade, Battalion or such.

You could also consider reducing their maximum squad size (though, given the sizes of similar units, I think 40 is still reasonable).

So, taken on their own they'd still be efficient tarpits. However, you'd no longer be able to take them on their own and would have to include at least 80pts of additional infantry per Conscript squad.

This might also help Infantry Squads seem more use.

sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Those are also assault armies. Funny thing about the character targeting immunity... it doesn't apply to assault. If you charge and pull the commissar into a melee, you can punch him.

Since he's a separate unit from the conscripts, you can allocate those melee attacks onto him on purpose and your opponent won't be able to use wound allocation shenanigans to deflect them. A commissar can die very fast in melee.

If the AM player places his commissar anywhere near melee range. But that won't happen.

If you have enough charge range, you can just declare the commissar as one of your charge targets. It's not like one commissar will contribute much to the overwatch, and if there are gaps wide enough to fit a base through, which there will be if the conscripts are being used as bubble wrapping, some of your charging units can just go through those to reach the commissar (because they can get within 1" during a charge). Or you can just use anything with the Fly keyword to hop over the conscripts and charge them from the side the commissar is on, or use deep striking to pop up behind them.

If the commissar is in the center of the conscript unit to prevent those things, then simply declaring him one of the charge targets will work. Reaching the conscript blob will count as a successful charge, and you'll be able to get to him with your pile-in move.

If you play against an AM player that makes a mistake like this, then count yourself lucky. There's nothing that forces him to leave base-wide gaps in his conscript line. Jump pack infantry might work, otherwise no.

Have... have you ever actually played against a player using conscripts? They're spaced out to screen a large area all the time, it's actually pretty rare for someone to pack them shoulder to shoulder. And you know how you can make a gap if one isn't there or isn't wide enough? Shoot them before you charge, which any assault unit with a gun can do now.

And you know the best part? There's only one morale phase. If you shoot the conscripts to thin them out, and then manage to take out the commissar on the charge, they'll have to roll morale against the shooting AND assault casualties.

It takes some work, it takes some positioning, and it's not an automatic win-button, but what did you expect? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women?

 ross-128 wrote:
Have... have you ever actually played against a player using conscripts? They're spaced out to screen a large area all the time, it's actually pretty rare for someone to pack them shoulder to shoulder. And you know how you can make a gap if one isn't there or isn't wide enough? Shoot them before you charge, which any assault unit with a gun can do now.

That's a nice condescending tone you've got there. Maybe you don't know, but it is actually the AM player that selects the casualties from your shooting. Small detail, big impact.

Not to mention no one constantly keeps any infantry at max distance constantly, even conscripts. You can condense them and spread them out as needed. If an enemy is so close they could charge a commissar 3 inches behind the first rank at least, might scoot them closer. Otherwise they aren't actually doing their job as screen unit.

sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Have... have you ever actually played against a player using conscripts? They're spaced out to screen a large area all the time, it's actually pretty rare for someone to pack them shoulder to shoulder. And you know how you can make a gap if one isn't there or isn't wide enough? Shoot them before you charge, which any assault unit with a gun can do now.

That's a nice condescending tone you've got there. Maybe you don't know, but it is actually the AM player that selects the casualties from your shooting. Small detail, big impact.

Goodness, exactly this.

Who are these people playing against?

"Whoops, my commissar was easily charged."
"Whoops, my commissar was left out in the open to be sniped."
"Whoops, I left gaps in my conscripts so units can walk through them."
"Whoops, I selected conscript casualties in such a manner that made the entire wall of conscripts pointless."

These things just don't happen.

And if you force them to huddle around the Commissar, then you've forced them to stop screening other units. Which means that conscript blob is now neutralized whether it dies or not, it is no longer doing its job.

Assaulting is a pretty good way to deal with them no matter what happens.

They're not Schrodinger's Conscripts, they can't be packed together to block any path to the Commissar, while simultaneously being spread out to protect the rest of the army and prevent you from going around them, and they're not going to collapse into whichever state is most advantageous the moment you observe them.

 ross-128 wrote:
And if you force them to huddle around the Commissar, then you've forced them to stop screening other units. Which means that conscript blob is now neutralized whether it dies or not, it is no longer doing its job.

Assaulting is a pretty good way to deal with them no matter what happens.

They're not Schrodinger's Conscripts, they can't be packed together to block any path to the Commissar, while simultaneously being spread out to protect the rest of the army and prevent you from going around them, and they're not going to collapse into whichever state is most advantageous the moment you observe them.

You can keep a few concentrated in front of the commissar and the others spread out, doesn't have to be uniform. Plus, conscripts are so cheap you can take enough to do both.

Plus, the fact you keep saying they are only good for screening doesn't make it true. They are again great for holding objectives and can put out really a lot of str 3 shooting for their cost. Which isn't hard if you aren't screening. They have more than one usage.

The problem is this assumption conscripts are bad at killing.

With orders they are not.

Warning mathhammer which some will disagree with - ignore if its going to cause upset.

Take your typical conscript formation vs a blob of 30 ork boys. Well lets be generous and say the Ork Boys start 24" away and get to go first, covering about 9", so they are now 15" away.

The guard player shoots with FRFSRF and does 100/9*5/6= 9.3~ wounds. Lets say 9 die.

The Ork player now moves forward another 5" and is 10" away. He can shoot some sluggas with the closest models. Maybe they get a kill but a good chance they don't.

Now they need a 9" charge. But they get a full burst of overwatch.

Will the whole conscript squad be in rapid fire range? Probably not at this range. So lets say a third are in 12". Another 3 orks die.

So now you are looking at a 9" charge. Initially this is pretty bad odds. If you factor in the ere we go reroll plus the ability to play with command dice its probably better. Its definitely not however guaranteed.

If they connect will it count? Sort of, but not really. Lets be generous and say all 18 Orks get into combat (and there is a good chance they won't). Well they kill 16 conscripts. The Conscripts kill another 3 Orks leaving them with 15. A further Conscript gets blammed reducing them to 33.

The 33 conscripts now leave the combat and get back into the fight in rapid fire range. Killing a further 6 Orks and reducing them to 9.

9 pistol shots kills another conscript. The Orks charge and all 32 are in rapid fire range. So another 3 Orks die. 6 Orks attack killing 5 conscripts. The remaining 27 conscripts attack back and do 2.5 wounds on the Orks - lets say 2.

There are now 4 Orks left, good chance to lose another couple to morale. The conscripts blam another member.

Next turn the conscripts leave again, rapid fire and finish off the orks.

If the Ork player's charge had failed - or the Conscripts had got off an initial volley at 24" range then it would be even more one sided. The only way the Orks win is if they get Da Jump to move far more rapidly across the table, or more likely get much closer while being ignored due to the Guard player shooting at other things.

Its the same with gaunts. If Homagaunts (or Genestealers) can get the double run boost so they can cover the whole table and get a charge off without ever taking a shooting round then sure they are lethal.

If they fail the charge though they are toast. A 200 lasgun volley will kill almost 28 gaunts and nearly 15 genestealers. If a few stragglers from that get into combat with you its not a problem - they are not going to eat through the conscripts.

Stick them in a stand up fight with other basic shooting troops. In every scenario I can think off the conscripts come off better due to their incredibly cheapness and FRFSRF.

As I see it the solution is that conscripts shouldn't be able to take orders. I'd also question whether they need 5+ armour save (but then brimstones definitely shouldn't have their 4++).

Can we wait just a little while before we nerf IG? I haven't even been able to play a game yet. Last edition there was no reason for us Guard players to even waste our time playing a game against Eldar, Necrons, or most Marine lists. Can we please be good for a little while?

crimsondave wrote:
Can we wait just a little while before we nerf IG? I haven't even been able to play a game yet. Last edition there was no reason for us Guard players to even waste our time playing a game against Eldar, Necrons, or most Marine lists. Can we please be good for a little while?

Honestly, the IG army is pretty good right now without needing some bs unit sitting in front of it ruining the game for both parties.

It's almost as if walking across their entire engagement range on a barren, featureless board is a bad way to engage shooting units.

If the Orks were able to win by doing that (without some favorable RNG), just marching 180 points of Boyz across a 24" kill zone toward 211 points of Conscripts and characters, the only way for Boyz to not win at that point would be to deliberately choose to stand and shoot. A very un-Orky choice to be sure.

While Conscripts are a bit on the high end of the power curve, they're not game breaking and they certainly don't need some of the Exterminatus level nerfs that have been proposed. It seems a bigger problem is a lot of people just have some skewed expectations of Conscripts. They expect to be able to just walk up the board and sweep them aside with roughly their value in points or less. Which might be true if they're unsupported, but if their support has been removed then they have already been neutralized and are just waiting to be mopped up.

crimsondave wrote:
Can we wait just a little while before we nerf IG? I haven't even been able to play a game yet. Last edition there was no reason for us Guard players to even waste our time playing a game against Eldar, Necrons, or most Marine lists. Can we please be good for a little while?

I'd like to be able to run my CSM and be effective given this is "super balanced edition" yet I can't, mainly because of guard at the moment. I'm also laughing at the idea IG had it hard last edition, at least you could compete with the less cheesy builds. Good lord, people claiming conscripts are balanced then crying how hard they had it last edition with no sense of perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
While Conscripts are a bit on the high end of the power curve, they're not game breaking and they certainly don't need some of the Exterminatus level nerfs that have been proposed. It seems a bigger problem is a lot of people just have some skewed expectations of Conscripts. They expect to be able to just walk up the board and sweep them aside with roughly their value in points or less. Which might be true if they're unsupported, but if their support has been removed then they have already been neutralized and are just waiting to be mopped up.

If by skewed you mean want them to cost the same as most units whose job they do better? No. We want them to cost a fair amount compared to every other unit like them, grits, termagaunts, mutant rabble, etc.

Why should they be both cheaper and more effective? They'd still be the best at 4 ppm, yet that'd "ruin" them somehow? We aren't the ones with skewed expectations, it's people who for some reason think they deserve a unit better than every other army.

It is simple.

6+ armor save
No orders

Conscripts have a great point to wound to armor save ratio. Too good and as a result weapons are useless because there is no such thing as a anti-infantry weapon.

So we got to knock around one of those 3 things. Can't go lower than 1 wound, can't increase their price or they lose their reason for existing (a wall of meat), so we should adjust their armor save.

6+ makes every ap - weapon 50% more effective against them. 7+ would be too much and would literally result in them being vaporized within 2 turns at the most.

But I do like the other proposal in this thread. Make it so Commissars just don't effect them, that would be good as well, if ld actually became a weakness.

Tbh I actually think commissar not effecting conscripts would be too much. Reduced effectiveness would be acceptable however.

6+ armor is much the same as 4ppm, still leaves them a bit better than many compareable units, but in a much better place balance wise. No orders is also probably needed.

SilverAlien wrote:
Tbh I actually think commissar not effecting conscripts would be too much. Reduced effectiveness would be acceptable however.

6+ armor is much the same as 4ppm, still leaves them a bit better than many compareable units, but in a much better place balance wise. No orders is also probably needed.

I agree with this, but it does make you wonder why the same pattern of armour is less effective on these guys.

But yea, removing the Commissar's influence is one of the least fluffy things one can do to 40k. This is literally why Commissars exist.

 Marmatag wrote:

Goodness, exactly this.

Who are these people playing against?

"Whoops, my commissar was easily charged."
"Whoops, my commissar was left out in the open to be sniped."
"Whoops, I left gaps in my conscripts so units can walk through them."
"Whoops, I selected conscript casualties in such a manner that made the entire wall of conscripts pointless."

These things just don't happen.

I haven't even found Conscripts to be a huge problem relative to just regular Guardsmen or Brimstone Horrors or whatever, but the defenses of them in here are frankly pathetic. Someone was suggesting Centurion Devastators a page back! People are talking like multiple squads of Eldar Rangers are ever worth taking on the off-chance you run into someone who leaves their Commissar in range and LoS of them. None of this is very reassuring because mostly it convinces readers that the speaker is either terrible at the game or is so desperate to rationalize Conscripts that they're not taking five seconds to think about what they're saying.

SilverAlien wrote:

crimsondave wrote:
Can we wait just a little while before we nerf IG? I haven't even been able to play a game yet. Last edition there was no reason for us Guard players to even waste our time playing a game against Eldar, Necrons, or most Marine lists. Can we please be good for a little while?

I'd like to be able to run my CSM and be effective given this is "super balanced edition" yet I can't, mainly because of guard at the moment. I'm also laughing at the idea IG had it hard last edition, at least you could compete with the less cheesy builds. Good lord, people claiming conscripts are balanced then crying how hard they had it last edition with no sense of perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
While Conscripts are a bit on the high end of the power curve, they're not game breaking and they certainly don't need some of the Exterminatus level nerfs that have been proposed. It seems a bigger problem is a lot of people just have some skewed expectations of Conscripts. They expect to be able to just walk up the board and sweep them aside with roughly their value in points or less. Which might be true if they're unsupported, but if their support has been removed then they have already been neutralized and are just waiting to be mopped up.

If by skewed you mean want them to cost the same as most units whose job they do better? No. We want them to cost a fair amount compared to every other unit like them, grits, termagaunts, mutant rabble, etc.

Why should they be both cheaper and more effective? They'd still be the best at 4 ppm, yet that'd "ruin" them somehow? We aren't the ones with skewed expectations, it's people who for some reason think they deserve a unit better than every other army.

Conscripts "ruin" the game for you? Really? That's what I'm laughing at.

Edit:

You know what....on second thought, I'm sorry. I recall the absolute futility of playing Necrons, Eldar, Tau, and Marines last edition. I don' t want to be like that.

Changing Conscripts to where Commissars don't effect them is too much imo, mainly because it is so against the fluff. Maybe for every 10 models over 10 the max lost goes up by 1? So a 50 blob could lose 4 (since somebody has to die to have a check?) Also maybe you have to have equal to or greater the number of regulars? Not sure if that helps. I'm feeling better about tons of separate squads with HBs and flamers than conscripts.

 Selym wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Tbh I actually think commissar not effecting conscripts would be too much. Reduced effectiveness would be acceptable however.

6+ armor is much the same as 4ppm, still leaves them a bit better than many compareable units, but in a much better place balance wise. No orders is also probably needed.

I agree with this, but it does make you wonder why the same pattern of armour is less effective on these guys.

But yea, removing the Commissar's influence is one of the least fluffy things one can do to 40k. This is literally why Commissars exist.

Who cares why, tabletop isn't fluffy anyway; game mechanics are more important.

I still think making conscripts squads of 10 would be best. the effect won't change too much, but it will make giving all 50 the comissair bubble much harder.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Tbh I actually think commissar not effecting conscripts would be too much. Reduced effectiveness would be acceptable however.

6+ armor is much the same as 4ppm, still leaves them a bit better than many compareable units, but in a much better place balance wise. No orders is also probably needed.

I agree with this, but it does make you wonder why the same pattern of armour is less effective on these guys.

But yea, removing the Commissar's influence is one of the least fluffy things one can do to 40k. This is literally why Commissars exist.

Who cares why, tabletop isn't fluffy anyway; game mechanics are more important.

The idea of a Commissar doing nothing to Conscripts is not workable. They have always been together like PB&J. What if they allowed the conscripts to use their LD value but did not limit their losses to 1?

Don't think I saw any suggestions/feedback (or really anything to suggest the post was even seen ) as to the two ideas I'd thrown out; feel like, paired, they might balance the 'horde units' a bit better (like Conscripts):

The problem with Conscripts is their synergy with Commissars; with their ability to reduce morale problems to one dead Conscript no matter how horribly you maim the unit itself it becomes harder to attrit them down.

I've mentioned before just giving Conscripts another ability specific to Commissars: Get back in line you rabble!; Instead of restricting casualties due to failed morale checks to one, Commissars and Lord Commissars using the Summary Execution rule halve (rounding up, to a minimum of one) all casualties caused by morale to Conscript units.

The problem with hordes in general may be the lack of scalability of formerly-template weapons - where you could really punish large hordes before, most template weapons will struggle to kill large groups. Could add a rule to horde units like: Tightly packed! Roll a D6 for every wound if this unit has 15 models or more; on a 5+ the unit suffers a mortal wound in addition to normal damage.

GhostRecon wrote:
Don't think I saw any suggestions/feedback (or really anything to suggest the post was even seen ) as to the two ideas I'd thrown out; feel like, paired, they might balance the 'horde units' a bit better (like Conscripts):

The problem with Conscripts is their synergy with Commissars; with their ability to reduce morale problems to one dead Conscript no matter how horribly you maim the unit itself it becomes harder to attrit them down.

I've mentioned before just giving Conscripts another ability specific to Commissars: Get back in line you rabble!; Instead of restricting casualties due to failed morale checks to one, Commissars and Lord Commissars using the Summary Execution rule halve (rounding up, to a minimum of one) all casualties caused by morale to Conscript units.

The problem with hordes in general may be the lack of scalability of formerly-template weapons - where you could really punish large hordes before, most template weapons will struggle to kill large groups. Could add a rule to horde units like: Tightly packed! Roll a D6 for every wound if this unit has 15 models or more; on a 5+ the unit suffers a mortal wound in addition to normal damage.

I'd play with that house rule with no problem.

So what is everyone's plan for when conscripts get nerfed? IG players will still be bringing 150 infantry to the table but these ones will have flamers and heavy bolters on them. They will also have plenty of points to spam artillery and tanks. instead of taking heavy bolter sponson on their tanks they will put those bolters on their men. If you are struggling to kill 150 conscripts what are you going to do against ones with heavy weapons? Oh and they have better leadership and ballistic skill. Guard players will not struggle to get the number of orders or commissars they need. Can you comfortably kill 150 men that are T3 5+ models with your army?

IG players will not blink an eye from running 150 conscripts to 150 guardsman. What are you going to change about your play style, weapons loadouts, or unit choice to deal with the "threatening" guardsman?

Nerfs will continue until morale improves.

You know, the good old Imperium way.

Those can be addressed when we reach that point, right now we got a unit that has its head pretty far above everything else. Let us fix that first before we move onto the next boogeymen. Or if you want to keep focusing on it let us look at how different 15 units of guardsmen are different from 3 units of conscripts.

I ran conscripts as a test once because everyone was going mental about them. I wasn't any more impressed than I was in previous editions.

My current plan is to do what I'm doing now. My "conscripts" are infantry squads with plasma guns, plasma pistols, and power swords. I have a couple commissars and company commanders to give them orders and reliable staying power. I spent a few more points and get the exact same effect, except they've become significantly more dangerous in shooting, and you get a bit less wound allocation shenanigans. It's basically what I've been doing since 5th edition. Only difference is that instead of Chimeras with vets, I have scions.

So I'm not actually getting affected by any conscript nerfs until the declarations that the sky is falling get us back to the point where we're 50 point squads with a command squad overhead and paying 15 points per scion.

All things considered, it'd probably be effective even then.

There isn't anything wrong with scions, plasma gun prices on the other hand...

 daedalus wrote:
I ran conscripts as a test once because everyone was going mental about them. I wasn't any more impressed than I was in previous editions.

My current plan is to do what I'm doing now. My "conscripts" are infantry squads with plasma guns, plasma pistols, and power swords. I have a couple commissars and company commanders to give them orders and reliable staying power. I spent a few more points and get the exact same effect, except they've become significantly more dangerous in shooting, and you get a bit less wound allocation shenanigans. It's basically what I've been doing since 5th edition. Only difference is that instead of Chimeras with vets, I have scions.

So I'm not actually getting affected by any conscript nerfs until the declarations that the sky is falling get us back to the point where we're 50 point squads with a command squad overhead and paying 15 points per scion.

All things considered, it'd probably be effective even then.

did you run them in a single 50 man blob? or 10 man squads? the blob seems to be what is the issue for people.

The conscripts were a 40 man blob, I think.

The infantry I run in 10 man squads, because I'm not sure you can run them any other way. Unless you have enough firepower to kill one in one turn, it really doesn't make that much of a difference other than that you're paying a little more points. It was still enough to stonewall a mean GK list with them.

I think even if the naysayers get what they want, they'll find that it's not going to matter much in the end.