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 Quickjager wrote:
A Baneblade is literally a direct counter, good comparison point; takes an IG unit to beat an IG unit. Used to only say that about Eldar...

Wait so now there are counters to conscripts?

Gee, I wonder if other armies have access to superheavy tanks... *glances in Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes* Oh look! Space Marine baneblades, but with a 2+ save and toughness 9! Oh wow neat!

If only other armies had access to something that countered conscripts. I mean what is Chaos supposed to do?

...they also have superheavy tanks you say?

Let me grab that tank! Oh not available to Grey Knights. Also many of those FW tanks are in and of themselves undercosted. But I suppose that isn't anything new...

As for countering it, it is a counter for the sole reason they can shoot while locked in combat which means, Conscripts can do nothing for all intents and purposes while the baneblade gets full value of its shooting.

 Quickjager wrote:
I think Genestealers are going to have their price increased a bit in the future based off what my Tyranid friend said; they don't pay for their claws apparently?

As for the Khorne Flakes I've been looking for a B. report for them to see their general effectiveness. They should be good in practice but I'm wondering how possible it is for them to actually kill too many conscripts to get that 2nd fight phase ironically.

As for LD psy powers, they use the Commissar LDship so that's pointless.

Stealers have just had a price decrease by FAQ and if they have to pay 2 points for their claws will not become much less potent. Will have to spend an extra 120 points, well I just got a 480 point decrease in cost, so that's fine.

The Khorne guy I saw charged multiple units at once and spread his attacks. Seemed to work out well for him.

 Quickjager wrote:
Let me grab that tank! Oh not available to Grey Knights. Also many of those FW tanks are in and of themselves undercosted. But I suppose that isn't anything new...

As for countering it, it is a counter for the sole reason they can shoot while locked in combat which means, Conscripts can do nothing for all intents and purposes while the baneblade gets full value of its shooting.

If only Grey Knights weren't a solo army and had no other faction keywords that could let them bring other units. Then they could bring whatever counters they wanted!

And the FW tanks aren't undercosted, I've had this argument with Xenomancers before and can copy you the quote pyramid if you really want. Compared to the GW superheavies, they're about the same price for price.

And yes? I mean, does it matter why a unit is a counter? If counter units to a given strategy exist, then the strategy is neither flawless nor even that good, and if it is seemingly good, then people aren't using the counters enough.

If you want to continue the FW price argument we can do so elsewhere so we don't end up off topic. I do believe a significant amount of FW costs are off in regards to Space Marines SHV in how cheap they are. I also believe this applies to vehicles as well

As for why I stated the reason it was a counter was because people tend to take a bit and run off with it in other ways intentionally.

As for keywords, I'm sorry if I like playing in codex I thought that was the balance we were striving for in this edition. Something which will be even more important with codices dropping soon which will apparently reward mono-keyword armies. It also fails to address, Orks, DE, Daemons, and most likely other new factions with their own codices like Death Guard.

SilverAlien wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
Don't think I saw any suggestions/feedback (or really anything to suggest the post was even seen ) as to the two ideas I'd thrown out; feel like, paired, they might balance the 'horde units' a bit better (like Conscripts):

The problem with Conscripts is their synergy with Commissars; with their ability to reduce morale problems to one dead Conscript no matter how horribly you maim the unit itself it becomes harder to attrit them down.

I've mentioned before just giving Conscripts another ability specific to Commissars: Get back in line you rabble!; Instead of restricting casualties due to failed morale checks to one, Commissars and Lord Commissars using the Summary Execution rule halve (rounding up, to a minimum of one) all casualties caused by morale to Conscript units.

The problem with hordes in general may be the lack of scalability of formerly-template weapons - where you could really punish large hordes before, most template weapons will struggle to kill large groups. Could add a rule to horde units like: Tightly packed! Roll a D6 for every wound if this unit has 15 models or more; on a 5+ the unit suffers a mortal wound in addition to normal damage.

Having commissar's be less effective is viable, but it's a question fo whether rules like that are the best way to handle it if other more basic adjustments will do it.

I do think template weapons scaling with size could be a good idea, but at the same time I'm reluctant to do that while other armies (again tyranids and orks) don't feel like they need the extra punishment.

If you mean 'tightly packed!' - I agree, which is why I suggested it for 'horde units'... mostly meaning the horde units that are meant solely for screening, like conscripts, brimstone horrors, Razorwing flocks. Not meant to be a universal rule to every unit that can field a lot of models - definitely not for Ork Boyz and the like.

Was mostly a suggestion I threw out to see if it'd gain any traction - also isn't template specific because it would apply too universally (again, unnecessarily against large units like Orks and Tyranids) and because broad changes to all formerly-template weapons seems entirely unrealistic. If GW really is listening to the community and making balance changes in FAQs, I figure something smaller and effective is more likely than demanding a massive game system change - like changing all formerly-template weapons, bringing back templates, etc. plus, balance changes should be a light touch - and in the IG's/Conscript's case in particular the unit itself isn't the huge problem, it's synergy is. Nerfing their synergy entirely with both Commissars and Orders is too much; upping their points value doesn't actually fix the real problems - their ability to tarpit heavily while ignoring morale and using Orders to fall back out of combat and still shoot; and lowering their armor alone doesn't change too much either - you might be killing a few more now, but morale still isn't a problem and they're still going to tarpit you.

Still, I'm more on the 'interwebs is making mountains out of molehills' side more than not. Like other threads display, I feel a good bit of the complaints/worry-storm is more due to adjustment pains to the new edition.

 Quickjager wrote:
If you want to continue the FW price argument we can do so elsewhere so we don't end up off topic. I do believe a significant amount of FW costs are off in regards to Space Marines SHV in how cheap they are. I also believe this applies to vehicles as well

As for why I stated the reason it was a counter was because people tend to take a bit and run off with it in other ways intentionally.

As for keywords, I'm sorry if I like playing in codex I thought that was the balance we were striving for in this edition. Something which will be even more important with codices dropping soon which will apparently reward mono-keyword armies. It also fails to address, Orks, DE, Daemons, and most likely other new factions with their own codices like Death Guard.

Feel free to restart that discussion in another threat or PM if you're invested. I'm happy to help you understand the logic (as I see it) behind Forge World's pricing. Not sure what your sentence about countering means.

The keyword thing - I get what you're saying about playing in-codex, but if you stay completely in-codex you have to deal with the army's deliberately engineered weaknesses. For armies like GK, or Deathwatch, their engineered weakness is hordes. Orks have this problem too - their engineered weakness is heavy (T8+) vehicles, and if you read other threads they're really struggling in that department.

Factions having weaknesses is a good thing, imo, because it makes the factions different. The weakness IG has is to melee armies making it to their tanks/heavy weapons/whatever firepower they have, for example (to try to draw it back to conscripts).

Every army has a unit whose job it is is to fill that weakness, e.g. Purifiers for GK anti-horde or Tankbustas for Ork heavy AT. But the faction, on the whole, is still weaker in that one field. Part of the issue with Conscripts, I think, is they're sort of a way around the 'bad at assault' weakeness Guard are supposed to have. Their 'counter-weakness' unit should be Ogryns, but Conscripts fill the niche instead (and very well too!) because of a Perfect Storm of army synergy, BRB rules updates, and (imo) unpreparedness.

So I can see, maybe, an argument that the Conscripts are flooding a niche that is supposed to be one where Guard are weak and just literally and figuratively plugging gaps in the faction's lines. I don't think that makes them overpowered by themselves, though. I think it just means that more counter-horde (i.e. Fellblades, Baneblades, Knights, whatever) is needed in the meta.

Regarding the Khorne berzerkers, one major thing to remember is that you consolidate after inflicting casualties. So you start in base to base contact, can move 3" after inflicting casualties, and only have to get within 1" to be considered still in combat. And then you'll get another 3" pile-in move at the start of the next fight phase.

Because the berzerkers' rule specifically grants them an extra fight phase, this means they also get an extra pile-in move and an extra consolidation move. Both of those are part of the fight phase.

So it's actually kind of hard to get a "free" disengage via casualties, especially if both units are spread out to create a long line of battle. You'd have to clear a rather large area around the entire unit. If just one enemy model is still within 4", it can use its consolidate move to stick to you. Now the entire unit can be activated to fight and get a 3" pile-in move to get the rest of them in (and if one model was within 4" by the end of casualties, the rest are likely well within 7" ).

This also means that Khorne berzerkers in combat can get across the board surprisingly quickly as long as whatever is in front of them keeps dying. They can keep going stuff dies->consolidate->pile-in->stuff dies->consolidate to get about 7" (since I'm expecting the pile-in to be less than 3" if the consolidate move got them back into combat) of movement per turn. Which is pretty fast for a unit that is locked in combat.

I don't understand how knights and baneblades are supposed to be good at antihorde, they are hardly going to kill as many conscripts as the best answers per pt. Trying to charge them into melee with the conscripts is going to result in a 1'' retreat and little else.

The point of conscripts is mainly to block assault and deepstrike armies - in those matchups they excel - but even against armies with mostly long range guns they carry their weight and more. They take objectives, block positions and put out more firepower than most other infantry units can per point. While they won't be bringing down any land raiders they can certainly do more than enough damage against T5 or lower to justify their cost. Best of all is that they can be used to assault shooty units like tanks in order to stunlock them, unless the opponent has his own layer of conscript equivalents. If the opponent decides to try to deal with them then he is likely playing a losing game. It's definitely possible to win by ignoring the conscripts and shooting the softer targets in the backline, but the AM player is probably going to have even more longrange shooting than pretty much any other shooty army. This is what causes the imbalance - in the best matchups the conscripts are incredible and in the worst matchups they are at least good given that they are cheap and relevant. If I had to guess the meta will probably be long range shooting and longer range shooting as a result, possibly flyers as well.

sossen wrote:
I don't understand how knights and baneblades are supposed to be good at antihorde, they are hardly going to kill as many conscripts as the best answers per pt. Trying to charge them into melee with the conscripts is going to result in a 1'' retreat and little else.

The point of conscripts is mainly to block assault and deepstrike armies - in those matchups they excel - but even against armies with mostly long range guns they carry their weight and more. They take objectives, block positions and put out more firepower than most other infantry units can per point. While they won't be bringing down any land raiders they can certainly do more than enough damage against T5 or lower to justify their cost. Best of all is that they can be used to assault shooty units like tanks in order to stunlock them, unless the opponent has his own layer of conscript equivalents. If the opponent decides to try to deal with them then he is likely playing a losing game. It's definitely possible to win by ignoring the conscripts and shooting the softer targets in the backline, but the AM player is probably going to have even more longrange shooting than pretty much any other shooty army. This is what causes the imbalance - in the best matchups the conscripts are incredible and in the worst matchups they are at least good given that they are cheap and relevant. If I had to guess the meta will probably be long range shooting and longer range shooting as a result, possibly flyers as well.

My SHTR routinely wins games against conscripts, with only my 4th (Assault) company having lost to conscript spam and it was because I horribly misplayed. (NB: My club has not yet adopted Maelstrom, this may change).
The order of operations is this:

1) Use faster movement values to find objectives to park on and fire at non-conscript units to knock out enemy AT assets.
2) Park with the objectives underneath the center of the tank and continue to fire.
3) If the Conscripts assault the baneblade, no problem, it gets free Overwatch against them and the sheer size of its hull keeps them more than 3" from the center of the objective.
4) Baneblade continues to fire at enemy AT assets, ignoring the conscripts completely (except for the free 9 attacks it gets)
5) This state continues until either the enemy's non-conscript assets are eliminated and the Baneblades run out of targets for their primary armament -OR- the game ends with my tanks on 3 of the objectives. (or however many objectives there are)

If, at step 3, the conscripts do not assault the Baneblade, then it is no problem - their firepower is insufficient to meaningfully harm the vehicles.

My 2k list includes:

1x Superheavy Detachment with 3x Superheavy Tanks (1st and 3rd (Line) companies are Baneblades, 2nd and 4th (Assault) companies are Stormswords, and 5th (Breakthrough) company is Stormhammers)
1x Battalion Detachment with:
3x Primaris Psykers (for the sweet sweet Barrier spell that gives Baneblades 2+ armour, and for redundancy. Sometimes these are swapped for Company Commanders or Lord Commissars, depending on how I am feeling, but Smite is way better damage output for my list than Orders or Morale Bonuses)
2x Infantry Squads, 1x Scion Squad

and the rest flavour to taste, though usually tech-priests for the superheavies or transports for the psykers or whathaveyou. Rough riders, even, if I'm feeling fun.

EDIT: As for Knights, they just walk over the line of conscripts, literally. They can move through infantry units, like Fly units can.

sossen wrote:
I don't understand how knights and baneblades are supposed to be good at antihorde, they are hardly going to kill as many conscripts as the best answers per pt. Trying to charge them into melee with the conscripts is going to result in a 1'' retreat and little else.

The point of conscripts is mainly to block assault and deepstrike armies - in those matchups they excel - but even against armies with mostly long range guns they carry their weight and more. They take objectives, block positions and put out more firepower than most other infantry units can per point. While they won't be bringing down any land raiders they can certainly do more than enough damage against T5 or lower to justify their cost. Best of all is that they can be used to assault shooty units like tanks in order to stunlock them, unless the opponent has his own layer of conscript equivalents. If the opponent decides to try to deal with them then he is likely playing a losing game. It's definitely possible to win by ignoring the conscripts and shooting the softer targets in the backline, but the AM player is probably going to have even more longrange shooting than pretty much any other shooty army. This is what causes the imbalance - in the best matchups the conscripts are incredible and in the worst matchups they are at least good given that they are cheap and relevant. If I had to guess the meta will probably be long range shooting and longer range shooting as a result, possibly flyers as well.

So a WS5+ BS5+ S3 T3 5+Sv Ld4 model with rapid fire S3 is an uberman? Has nothing to do with the Commissar forcing that Ld4 to mean nothing, or the Commander giving orders to let them Fall back and shoot or double their firepower?

Again and again, it is not Conscripts that are the problem. It is the way they synergize with both Orders and Commissars. Try even theoryhammering Conscripts with just a Commander giving Orders - no Commissar buffing leadership - and see how much of an Uberman they are. Or vice versa, sans Commander but with Commissar. Then mathhammer them without either. You might find Conscripts need both to even function, even just in theory, as this specter uberman - so it is that synergy that needs attention, not the unit itself.

SHTR?

 daedalus wrote:
SHTR?

Super-Heavy Tank Regiment, sorry.

Oh. That makes sense. I'm going to petition for that in N&B.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Bump their maximum numbers down to 20-30. They can still swarm, they're still cheap, but it makes their numbers more manageable. If you're having a problem dealing with T3/S5 infantry at that point then you're doing something wrong and need to take a look at your list.

Making them 1p more expensive makes them otherwise pointless next to Infantry Squads for anything less than spamming 50 of, which ironically might exacerbate the problem some.

No one cares about the toughness, everyone cares about the fact there isn't an efficient way to remove the sheer number of them. If you don't understand that then you probably don't have a history of play with or against horde armies.

If you're having such a problem with hordes then being anti-horde kit. You're a Space Muhreen player right? Not as if you don't have a tool for every situation spoonfed to you anyway. Yeah, hordes may suck to fight against when you're bringing an All-Comerslist but if you know what you're going to be up against... well, plan accordingly.

We did with old horde armies with Flamers and Thunderfire/Whirlwinds, when you guys whined about AP5 because you couldn't grasp the basic concept of cover against Bolters.

Well how about now?

 daedalus wrote:
Oh. That makes sense. I'm going to petition for that in N&B.

I think I'm the only one that uses it. I don't know anyone else with 16 IG superheavy tanks.

sossen wrote:
I don't understand how knights and baneblades are supposed to be good at antihorde, they are hardly going to kill as many conscripts as the best answers per pt. Trying to charge them into melee with the conscripts is going to result in a 1'' retreat and little else.

The point of conscripts is mainly to block assault and deepstrike armies - in those matchups they excel - but even against armies with mostly long range guns they carry their weight and more. They take objectives, block positions and put out more firepower than most other infantry units can per point. While they won't be bringing down any land raiders they can certainly do more than enough damage against T5 or lower to justify their cost. Best of all is that they can be used to assault shooty units like tanks in order to stunlock them, unless the opponent has his own layer of conscript equivalents. If the opponent decides to try to deal with them then he is likely playing a losing game. It's definitely possible to win by ignoring the conscripts and shooting the softer targets in the backline, but the AM player is probably going to have even more longrange shooting than pretty much any other shooty army. This is what causes the imbalance - in the best matchups the conscripts are incredible and in the worst matchups they are at least good given that they are cheap and relevant. If I had to guess the meta will probably be long range shooting and longer range shooting as a result, possibly flyers as well.

I think the main thing is just that they don't care about them very much. It's true that all 50 Conscripts using FRFSRF on a superheavy expect to put almost 4 wounds on it, which is pretty good, but you don't need to kill many of them to degrade their order efficiency, and both Baneblades and Knights are pretty happy to charge them if they get close. And you're just not getting more than one Conscript unit in range of one of these to rapid fire at it. The superheavies still don't kill them efficiently but they can take steps to reduce their damage output and can get to the objectives first. It's not like a regular ranged gunline or a CC army where getting too close to Conscripts means you take some damage and you lose a turn.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Bump their maximum numbers down to 20-30. They can still swarm, they're still cheap, but it makes their numbers more manageable. If you're having a problem dealing with T3/S5 infantry at that point then you're doing something wrong and need to take a look at your list.

Making them 1p more expensive makes them otherwise pointless next to Infantry Squads for anything less than spamming 50 of, which ironically might exacerbate the problem some.

No one cares about the toughness, everyone cares about the fact there isn't an efficient way to remove the sheer number of them. If you don't understand that then you probably don't have a history of play with or against horde armies.

If you're having such a problem with hordes then being anti-horde kit. You're a Space Muhreen player right? Not as if you don't have a tool for every situation spoonfed to you anyway. Yeah, hordes may suck to fight against when you're bringing an All-Comerslist but if you know what you're going to be up against... well, plan accordingly.

We did with old horde armies with Flamers and Thunderfire/Whirlwinds, when you guys whined about AP5 because you couldn't grasp the basic concept of cover against Bolters.

Well how about now?

That's a bit unfair, I don't know anyone who whined about AP5. In fact, most guard players I know lovingly referred to Flak Armour as a 't-shirt' and were wide-eyed with surprise if they were told they could roll an armour save.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Oh. That makes sense. I'm going to petition for that in N&B.

I think I'm the only one that uses it. I don't know anyone else with 16 IG superheavy tanks.

I mean, I could bring the one that gives you THREE super heavy tanks...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Bump their maximum numbers down to 20-30. They can still swarm, they're still cheap, but it makes their numbers more manageable. If you're having a problem dealing with T3/S5 infantry at that point then you're doing something wrong and need to take a look at your list.

Making them 1p more expensive makes them otherwise pointless next to Infantry Squads for anything less than spamming 50 of, which ironically might exacerbate the problem some.

No one cares about the toughness, everyone cares about the fact there isn't an efficient way to remove the sheer number of them. If you don't understand that then you probably don't have a history of play with or against horde armies.

If you're having such a problem with hordes then being anti-horde kit. You're a Space Muhreen player right? Not as if you don't have a tool for every situation spoonfed to you anyway. Yeah, hordes may suck to fight against when you're bringing an All-Comerslist but if you know what you're going to be up against... well, plan accordingly.

We did with old horde armies with Flamers and Thunderfire/Whirlwinds, when you guys whined about AP5 because you couldn't grasp the basic concept of cover against Bolters.

Well how about now?

That's a bit unfair, I don't know anyone who whined about AP5. In fact, most guard players I know lovingly referred to Flak Armour as a 't-shirt' and were wide-eyed with surprise if they were told they could roll an armour save.

Have you ever browsed this forum? Bolters are a bad weapon, let's face it. Whenever a Marine player has a complaint about that, people here say "You have ATSKNF and Bolters ignore my armor unlike Lasguns!!!", when in reality we'd trade for Lasguns if they made us even a point cheaper.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Have you ever browsed this forum? Bolters are a bad weapon, let's face it. Whenever a Marine player has a complaint about that, people here say "You have ATSKNF and Bolters ignore my armor unlike Lasguns!!!", when in reality we'd trade for Lasguns if they made us even a point cheaper.

You did. You don't get AP5 anymore and SM went from 14 points to 13 points. And we laughed our asses off. You shot the 5 point mini? Pfft, oooookay. Don't mind these tanks.

But it's the same as its ever been.

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Oh. That makes sense. I'm going to petition for that in N&B.

I think I'm the only one that uses it. I don't know anyone else with 16 IG superheavy tanks.

I mean, I could bring the one that gives you THREE super heavy tanks...

That's all I ever field in one game except for apocalypse, so don't be too sad!

Besides, the smallest regiment structure is 3 companies, so you only need six more vehicles to make a minium-sized superheavy tank regiment, if the regimental commander is alright riding a Chimera, haha!

Let's take this in a different direction.

At 1000 points, how would you handle 6 manticores bubble wrapped by (I forget how many, a lot, at least 60 in 2 squads, closer to 100) conscripts. The manticores are behind & inside a building, and the conscripts stretch out from the commissar, who is positioned in the corner of the building, where he cannot be seen. The conscripts cover the building, extend with layers to both sides of the board, and are also in front of the building as well.

Also, there is a master of ordinance in there too, so the manties reroll 1s.

This is also on the scenario layout where you start in opposite corners, with a 9" dividing circle in the middle.

Thank you in advance!

 Marmatag wrote:
Let's take this in a different direction.

At 1000 points, how would you handle 6 manticores bubble wrapped by (I forget how many, a lot, at least 60 in 2 squads, closer to 100) conscripts. The manticores are behind & inside a building, and the conscripts stretch out from the commissar, who is positioned in the corner of the building, where he cannot be seen. The conscripts cover the building, extend with layers to both sides of the board, and are also in front of the building as well.

Also, there is a master of ordinance in there too, so the manties reroll 1s.

This is also on the scenario layout where you start in opposite corners, with a 9" dividing circle in the middle.

Thank you in advance!

manticores are 2d6 str 10 AP -2 d3 damage, right? Or d6 damage?

 Marmatag wrote:
Let's take this in a different direction.

At 1000 points, how would you handle 6 manticores bubble wrapped by (I forget how many, a lot, at least 60 in 2 squads, closer to 100) conscripts. The manticores are behind & inside a building, and the conscripts stretch out from the commissar, who is positioned in the corner of the building, where he cannot be seen. The conscripts cover the building, extend with layers to both sides of the board, and are also in front of the building as well.

Also, there is a master of ordinance in there too, so the manties reroll 1s.

This is also on the scenario layout where you start in opposite corners, with a 9" dividing circle in the middle.

Thank you in advance!

Closer to a million! Ignoring FOC/Detachments, you actually only can field 57 Conscripts with 1 Commissar and 6 Manticores within 1000pts. Not closer to a hundred, or a hundred billion, or whatever other number.

Master of Ordnance brings that down to 44 Conscripts.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Let's take this in a different direction.

At 1000 points, how would you handle 6 manticores bubble wrapped by (I forget how many, a lot, at least 60 in 2 squads, closer to 100) conscripts. The manticores are behind & inside a building, and the conscripts stretch out from the commissar, who is positioned in the corner of the building, where he cannot be seen. The conscripts cover the building, extend with layers to both sides of the board, and are also in front of the building as well.

Also, there is a master of ordinance in there too, so the manties reroll 1s.

This is also on the scenario layout where you start in opposite corners, with a 9" dividing circle in the middle.

Thank you in advance!

Closer to a million! Ignoring FOC/Detachments, you actually only can field 57 Conscripts with 1 Commissar and 6 Manticores within 1000pts. Not closer to a hundred, or a hundred billion, or whatever other number.

Master of Ordnance brings that down to 44 Conscripts.

Having a legal HQ for such a detachment brings it down to 34 conscripts, which I think is below the minimum unit size for one of the units (20, right?) meaning you have to field 1 squad of infantry (The cheapest other option) as your second troop which brings it down to 21 conscripts with 10 infantrymen, one Commissar, one Company Commander, 6 Manticores, and one MoO

EDIT: If you bring a Lord Commissar instead of a Company Commander+Commissar you get I think, 1 or 2 conscripts back?

 Marmatag wrote:
Let's take this in a different direction.

At 1000 points, how would you handle 6 manticores bubble wrapped by (I forget how many, a lot, at least 60 in!

Manticores are 133 by default. If there are 6 on the table, there couldn't be more than 67 conscripts on the table, and that's not counting any other units. No HQ. No commissar. Literally nothing else at that point value. You can't take a commissar with the 21 points leaving off 7 conscripts would get you, so I'd open by handing my phone to my opponent, with the calculator app open, and politely ask him to try again while I go look for a nearby place to get a drink.

Oh, I'd also say something offhanded about how I can do a million pushups in a minute when no one is watching.

Hold on, let me ask my buddy what his list was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok. I got it a little wrong.

It was 2 squads of 30 conscripts.
4x Manticore
2x Wyvern
1x Commissar
1x MoO

And we can't remember the HQ for this particular game. it was inquisition i think but can't recall. This might not be 100% accurate but it is the best we can recall.

I play Grey Knights mainly. So, a GK strategy would be ideal here. Thanks!

If you can't get through 34 conscripts with a 1000 point army, I don't know what to tell you.

 ross-128 wrote:
If you can't get through 34 conscripts with a 1000 point army, I don't know what to tell you.

Okay so that's one "get good" reply, which basically amounts to you don't have an answer so you're being snide, anyone want to hazard a strategy?

In any case, the answer to this particular scenario is to bring storm ravens. I didn't have them in my list at the time. If i could go against this army again, my list would be: 2xRaven, 1x Draigo, 1x Strike squad; Patrol detachment. But can you find an answer without storm raven cheese?

I forgot to mention the requirement in this mini-tournament was 1 detachment only. Missions are ITC.