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Have you ever browsed this forum? Bolters are a bad weapon, let's face it. Whenever a Marine player has a complaint about that, people here say "You have ATSKNF and Bolters ignore my armor unlike Lasguns!!!", when in reality we'd trade for Lasguns if they made us even a point cheaper.
You did. You don't get AP5 anymore and SM went from 14 points to 13 points. And we laughed our asses off. You shot the 5 point mini? Pfft, oooookay. Don't mind these tanks.
But it's the same as its ever been.
Including the Flamers, Heavy Bolters, Whirlwind rounds, etc?
The answer is no.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Marmatag wrote: Hold on, let me ask my buddy what his list was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok. I got it a little wrong.
It was 2 squads of 30 conscripts.
4x Manticore
2x Wyvern
1x Commissar
1x MoO
And we can't remember the HQ for this particular game. it was inquisition i think but can't recall. This might not be 100% accurate but it is the best we can recall.
I play Grey Knights mainly. So, a GK strategy would be ideal here. Thanks!
Regarding this matchup, is it really the 60 Conscripts that are the problem and not the 4 Manticores?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Marmatag wrote: Hold on, let me ask my buddy what his list was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok. I got it a little wrong.
It was 2 squads of 30 conscripts.
4x Manticore
2x Wyvern
1x Commissar
1x MoO
And we can't remember the HQ for this particular game. it was inquisition i think but can't recall. This might not be 100% accurate but it is the best we can recall.
I play Grey Knights mainly. So, a GK strategy would be ideal here. Thanks!
Regarding this matchup, is it really the 60 Conscripts that are the problem and not the 4 Manticores?
The manticores are the problem, compounded by the fact that I could not get in range to actually attack them, because of conscript wall.
So i needed to make a dent in the conscripts before i could attack them. And since he went first, i had to suffer 3 rounds of shooting from those manticores before i could make it through the conscripts.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
At 1000 points, how would you handle 6 manticores bubble wrapped by (I forget how many, a lot, at least 60 in 2 squads, closer to 100) conscripts. The manticores are behind & inside a building, and the conscripts stretch out from the commissar, who is positioned in the corner of the building, where he cannot be seen. The conscripts cover the building, extend with layers to both sides of the board, and are also in front of the building as well.
Also, there is a master of ordinance in there too, so the manties reroll 1s.
This is also on the scenario layout where you start in opposite corners, with a 9" dividing circle in the middle.
Thank you in advance!
I think this is closer to 1200 points for a plausible list.
Obviously this is a pretty cheesy spam list that's likely to do very well against many TAC lists, but I do think it's generally counter-able. The first thing that comes to mind is a ton of Guardians in Wave Serpents. You could fit something like an Autarch and 5 of these in a list. 6 Manticores only expect to just barely kill a Serpent, re-rolling 1s, and don't quite get there if the Serpents are within 36". The Serpents can kill ~20 Conscripts from 24", and on turn 2 the Guardians will be able to get out and shoot. Each Guardian squad expects to kill 7-8 Conscripts if they're in range of the Autarch. So the Conscripts should be basically dead by the end of Eldar turn 2. It is possible that some Wave Serpents will be able to charge Manticores this turn. If all of the Manticores shoot, they can then kill about 25 Guardians. But after this the Manticores are definitely going to be locked in CC with Serpents. The Eldar are likely to table the Guard if they have enough Guardians left, but regardless the Guard player will have no ability to score objectives outside of ones his Manticores are already parked on.
Edit: I think basically the same applies to the modified 1000 point list. There are plenty of things that blow Conscripts away, if inefficiently, and then the artillery is extremely vulnerable to getting locked up. Wave Serpents are particularly good for this because Manticores only expect 1.33 damage on them per wound rather than 2. I bet Sisters would also be able to handle this, with lots of storm bolter Troops squads (~50 points) in Repressors (~100 points).
Marmatag wrote: Hold on, let me ask my buddy what his list was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok. I got it a little wrong.
It was 2 squads of 30 conscripts. 4x Manticore 2x Wyvern 1x Commissar 1x MoO
And we can't remember the HQ for this particular game. it was inquisition i think but can't recall. This might not be 100% accurate but it is the best we can recall.
I play Grey Knights mainly. So, a GK strategy would be ideal here. Thanks!
The GK's engineered faction weakness is to hordes, so good luck, but it's worth noting that I could just field two Stormhammers and park them on objectives. The Manticores statistically won't do enough wounds to kill both of them before they run out of missiles, and the stormhammers evaporate everything that can be seen (i.e. the conscripts) in two turns, with a statistical average of killing 24 per turn. Then I just sit on the objectives (if there are any) and lose wounds until victory! Unless he moves out of cover and gets blatted in the face.
Note, the 24 conscripts per turn is with mostly lascannons on the stormhammers. If I gave them Heavy Bolters instead of lascannons, they get cheaper and their numbers go up in this instance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 16:57:16
Would you really bring that to a tournament as your 1000 point list? You'd get annihilated
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Would you really bring that to a tournament as your 1000 point list? You'd get annihilated
I play a Superheavy Tank Regiment, that means I try to bring as close to a company (3 vehicles) as possible, and if I can achieve that (e.g. 1500 or 2k) then I can start optimizing.
Sorry if my army loyalty bothers you.
EDIT: It's worth noting that our local tournaments have been at 2k and I've done well (though by no means have won!). I'd hardly say I got annihilated. My list for 2k is typically:
3 vehicles in one Superheavy Detachment
1 Battalion with at least 1 Primaris Psyker, 2 infantry squads, and 1 5-man Scion squad, with the rest of the points to flavour to taste. (Sometimes tech-priests or the like. Usually not much.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 16:58:48
edit - and i'm aware of GK's weaknesses, but that's the way it is.
next tournament i could bring a bunch of rifleman dreadnoughts and azrael, for instance. I'll have a 48" range and a ton of shots, rerolling misses, and my dreads will have a 4++.
Marmatag wrote: Would you really bring that to a tournament as your 1000 point list? You'd get annihilated
I play a Superheavy Tank Regiment, that means I try to bring as close to a company (3 vehicles) as possible, and if I can achieve that (e.g. 1500 or 2k) then I can start optimizing.
Sorry if my army loyalty bothers you.
Well the whole point was asking for advice, it's not really useful advice if i can't put it into practice.
"I need to get better at basketball." "Be taller." "Well, i'm not taller." "I'm not going to apologize for being tall."
So your feedback so far has been:
1. get good
2. switch armies
got it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 16:58:02
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: edit - and i'm aware of GK's weaknesses, but that's the way it is.
next tournament i could bring a bunch of rifleman dreadnoughts and azrael, for instance. I'll have a 48" range and a ton of shots, rerolling misses, and my dreads will have a 4++.
Marmatag wrote: Would you really bring that to a tournament as your 1000 point list? You'd get annihilated
I play a Superheavy Tank Regiment, that means I try to bring as close to a company (3 vehicles) as possible, and if I can achieve that (e.g. 1500 or 2k) then I can start optimizing.
Sorry if my army loyalty bothers you.
Well the whole point was asking for advice, it's not really useful advice if i can't put it into practice.
"I need to get better at basketball." "Be taller." "Well, i'm not taller." "I'm not going to apologize for being tall."
So your feedback so far has been: 1. get good 2. switch armies
got it.
I mean you're asking for advice on how to deal with hordes as GK. That really is like asking how to make a T-34 effective against an M1 Abrams. It's your engineered weakness in your faction, so yes, you will have to switch armies or be a way better player than your opponent. 'tis the truth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 17:00:34
The manticores are the problem, compounded by the fact that I could not get in range to actually attack them, because of conscript wall.
Fair enough. My point was that this seems less like a demonstration of Conscripts being OP and more a demonstration of Manticores being OP (at least when spammed in low-point games).
Anyway, I don't play GKs so I can't really give you any specific advice. These are my general thoughts regarding that list:
- Assuming the Manticores shoot every turn, then they're little metal boxes after turn 4. I appreciate that surviving 4 turns of 4 Manticores shooting is no easy feat, but it's still worth mentioning. If you do have units that can survive Manticore shooting, you could instead concentrate on taking out the Wyverns (leaving him with basically no meaningful shooting after turn 4).
- His army is all but immobile. If you play Maelstrom then he's pretty screwed. If not, I'd suggest using cover as much as possible and having squads on as many objectives as possible (he lacks the push to reach outside of his deployment zone, so unless he can completely obliterate you with artillery fire he won't be contesting your backfield objectives).
- In terms of assault, my suggestion would be to try and shoot some gaps in the conscript line and then assault through them into a couple of the tanks. If you have any jump-pack infantry then you might be able to assault right over the conscripts. Also, bear in mind that (as per the faq) assaulting doesn't require LoS. So if you have enough range to tag the Commissar and/or MoO with an assault unit, you can do so even if they're hiding out of sight behind the tanks. Anyway, the key here is that, even if you can't kill the vehicles you assaulted, you can still lock them down for a turn. And if they're tightly-packed (which seems pretty likely), then they might not even be able to fall back in his turn.
I don't know how applicable these are to GKs, but hopefully they'll be of some help.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Thanks vipoid. That's basically what i tried to do.
My list wasn't ultra-competitive.
I basically had:
Voldus
A Purgation squad in a razorback
Interceptors
Paladins
Vindicare Assassin
The vindicare couldn't see the commissar, ever, because of his placement inside the building. It was 90 points effectively wasted in my list. (Hence my statement: Snipers do not counter commissars.) He could shoot conscripts basically, or try to peel damage off tanks.
Turn 1, I lost the razorback, and the squad inside, and some interceptors to shots from wyverns and manticores, this is before i got a turn. On my turn 1, I moved the interceptors into rapid-fire range of the weakest, not-in-cover conscript squad, while also deploying them into cover. So they had a 2+ base and could rapid fire into the conscripts. But they were not at full strength, so they weren't killing a lot of conscripts.
I had Voldus and the paladins drop in, so they could move forward and charge through the walls into the commissar. It was going to take me 2 charge moves to get within range of the tanks anyway, and because of how tight things were back there in his parking lot, I would be able to kill the Wyverns as well.
But his turn 2, he shot pretty much everything off the table except a couple Paladins, Voldus, and a few remaining interceptors.
At this point the game was basically over. My interceptors got in and locked up some vehicles, but Voldus and co failed a charge.
It was gg.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Well alright, let's say I'm playing Orks. I bring a couple warbuggies, a warboss, and a bunch o' boyz, enough that I can afford to take some losses. Their nobz will probably have big choppas or power klaws to help them deal with vehicles. Or looking at it another way, the Boyz are padding to help the nobs reach the artillery.
Deploy as far forward as possible. Warbuggies move into a comfortable charge range, shoot, and charge the conscripts. With 14" of movement, they should be able to pull it off even if they're deployed back a bit (unless they're reeeeeeally crammed into the far corner, in which case you should have raised some questions when the terrain was being set up).
With the conscripts tied up, the warboss and Boyz move up, advance if necessary, charge if they can (with the warboss they can charge after advancing), shoot and repeat next turn if they can't. Warboss of course will make sure he's sitting somewhere in the middle of the blob so he can't be targeted. Because everyone is within 36", the MoO is useless.
When the Boyz hit the conscripts, they should more or less evaporate in one turn because they just got hit with nearly 1000 points of Boyz, minus the boss and distraction buggies. What's left of the blob, which will include the Nobz because I'll never pick them as casualties, charges the manticores. Because if they're "inside a building", that building is area-terrain ruins. Which means the Boyz can move through it with no penalty. In addition, because of the rule limiting how many missiles a Manticore can fire in one turn, they can't use their missiles for overwatch if they fired that turn.
Because Manticores only have 2d6 shots hitting on 4+, they're going to have a hard time putting enough shots down to clear the blob even if every hit is guaranteed to splat a model. If they actually do enough damage to a single blob to force a morale check, the Warboss can just blam someone. They can probably easily splat the buggies, but the buggies are a distraction unit. And really only the Nobz and Warboss actually need to get through, once they've entered melee the artillery has lost because it can't fall back and shoot.
And that's just a really basic/shallow strategy that relies on a very simple plan of "give them a turn-1 scare to distract them, then drown them in bodies", because I'm not an Ork player.
Marmatag wrote: Hold on, let me ask my buddy what his list was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok. I got it a little wrong.
It was 2 squads of 30 conscripts.
4x Manticore
2x Wyvern
1x Commissar
1x MoO
And we can't remember the HQ for this particular game. it was inquisition i think but can't recall. This might not be 100% accurate but it is the best we can recall.
I play Grey Knights mainly. So, a GK strategy would be ideal here. Thanks!
Prob a company commander for HQ. Hardly a GK player, but theoried up:
Fewer drops so you should get first turn; two smaller squads and Crowe hide in cover until they can Gate into his face. Other two squads deepstrike in his face. Focus SBs and Incinerators on the Conscripts enough to assault the Manticores (1st priority) and the Wyverns (2nd). Each Manticore averages ~2 dead MEQ per rocket (assuming 7.5 average on 2d6) and the MoO only works if you're further than 36", so - in theory would do okay.
Playing Tau I'd use two Stealth Teams, one with homing beacon, a flamer crisis team and two FB commanders and homing beacon into his army's face.
And for the record, I did finish deploying first, but lost the roll to go first. It happens.
I didn't roll well, and he did roll well, but that happens, too.
Also this was ITC format, but with ruins in the corners. The map definitely favored his army. But good on him for knowing that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 17:16:21
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Arbitrator wrote: Bump their maximum numbers down to 20-30. They can still swarm, they're still cheap, but it makes their numbers more manageable. If you're having a problem dealing with T3/S5 infantry at that point then you're doing something wrong and need to take a look at your list.
Making them 1p more expensive makes them otherwise pointless next to Infantry Squads for anything less than spamming 50 of, which ironically might exacerbate the problem some.
No one cares about the toughness, everyone cares about the fact there isn't an efficient way to remove the sheer number of them. If you don't understand that then you probably don't have a history of play with or against horde armies.
If you're having such a problem with hordes then being anti-horde kit. You're a Space Muhreen player right? Not as if you don't have a tool for every situation spoonfed to you anyway. Yeah, hordes may suck to fight against when you're bringing an All-Comerslist but if you know what you're going to be up against... well, plan accordingly.
We did with old horde armies with Flamers and Thunderfire/Whirlwinds, when you guys whined about AP5 because you couldn't grasp the basic concept of cover against Bolters.
Well how about now?
Did we? I remember always having an ADL in every list and getting complaints from Space Marine players that their supposedly superior armor didn't matter because I just camped cover for a 4+ with everything while retaliating with tanks, that were also in cover. and getting a 3+ because of Camo Nets.
Marmatag wrote:Let's take this in a different direction.
At 1000 points, how would you handle 6 manticores bubble wrapped by (I forget how many, a lot, at least 60 in 2 squads, closer to 100) conscripts. The manticores are behind & inside a building, and the conscripts stretch out from the commissar, who is positioned in the corner of the building, where he cannot be seen. The conscripts cover the building, extend with layers to both sides of the board, and are also in front of the building as well.
Also, there is a master of ordinance in there too, so the manties reroll 1s.
This is also on the scenario layout where you start in opposite corners, with a 9" dividing circle in the middle.
I have fewer drops [4], so I go first.
I scout forward, then deploy storm bolters directly in front of the Conscripts. The melta team will fire from within the Repressor. I Act of Faith Celestine and the Seraphim forward. I shoot the Conscripts with all the flamers and storm bolters and bolt pistols:
3x Heavy Flamers for an average of 7 dead conscripts. 94 Bolter shots [14 Storm Bolters, 38 Bolt Pistols] average 28 dead conscripts. 14 Meltaguns kills 10.
If I got to chose deployment type, we're playing Dawn of War, and the Manticores are in range of Celestine and the Seraphim to charge, even over that gigantic building. It's even worse for the guard, because they're all together behind that giant building so I can multicharge all of them. And, because they're behind the building, they can't overwatch with their secondary weapons. Might as well try their Storm Eagle rockets. 10d6 rocket shots, averaging 35, hitting 6, wounding 5, I save 3, lose 2 Gemini, then the Seraphim charge in with no overwatch. The Repressors charge the conscripts, taking 0 damage and getting in melee with them, killing an average of 6 between them. Hypothetically, Celestine and company could include the Company Commander in their charge if he too has made the mistake of being close to the Manticores, which would be game right then and there for the IG, but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume otherwise.
On the IG turn, the conscripts can try to beat on the Repressors with their fists, but they're going to go nowhere fast. His Manticores can stay in combat and be shot by Inferno Pistols twice and meleed by Celestine twice, or they can fall back, be shot twice, meleed once, and get a shot at overwatch, so they're going to do that. So everyone falls back, and try to shoot my Storm Bolters. 80 shots kills 4. Oh well, that's the IG turn.
In my next turn, I Act of Faith to use my Inferno Pistols on Manticores, and add back a model to the Storm Bolter squad. Again, I shoot the Conscripts, killing 24 on average. I get to kill another 7 with Meltaguns, and shoot the Manticores with Inferno Pistols again. Over the course of this turn, a minimum of two Manticores should die, possibly 3 if Celestine did well in last turn's close combat. I charge, again with Celestine, then with the Seraphim, make it, and probably blow another one up in melee. I melee the Conscripts with the Repressors again, killing another 6.
The IG player has nothing to do but fall back again, and kills of the two girls left from the storm bolter team from turn 1. End of his turn.
Sisters 3, I finish off his Conscripts, and probably his Manticores.
Now, let's give the IG more benefits than you offered them. It's Hammer and Anvil now, and there are 5 perfect Manticore-sized buildings right along the back edge, each a foot apart. The Conscripts protect them way at the back there. I can't reach the Manticores on turn 1 anymore, but everyone unloads into the Conscripts. The Manticores, if they know what's good for them, bombard the Repressors, wounding one and probably killing the other. It takes an average of 25 Manticore shots to kill a Repressor. They could try to blow Celestine up, or the Seraphim, but they have a better chance shooting at the Repressors. This turn, I once again unload into the conscripts, and charge 2 Manticores, the CC, and the Commissar with Seraphim and one more with Celestine. From there on out, it's just mop-up. If they bomb the Seraphim, then I lose those, but the Repressors are fine, and they bring 10 meltaguns right up to within 6" of the Manticores and get to murder a whole lot more conscripts, and that's that right then and there.
You can pull off the same stunt with Harlequins in Shadowweavers. In fact, I saw it happen just last night, except the IG player was using Leman Russes and Autocannon teams instead of Manticores. It wasn't wiping the floor, but the IG was on the back foot for most of the game.
Or, you can go with many, many Hormagaunts/Genestealers, Trygons, and the Swarmlord. That will mincemeat them, I have proof, because it took princely 1 turn for a Tyranids player to kill 40 of my Conscripts with 1 trygon and 1 squad of hormagaunts, and I had stolen the initiative and killed the Swarmlord before he got to use his Hive Commander ability. If there was 1 Trygon Prime, 60 Hormagaunts, 3 Tyrant Guard, and a Swarmlord, I think the Conscripts and Manticores could also be fairly easily handled.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 17:52:15
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Katherine, in ITC you don't automatically go first if you have less drops. Counting a seize roll, it's roughly 60-40 if you finish first. Additionally you don't pick the deployment type or terrain, it's defined at the outsight on the mission printout.
And the deployment - I believe it's called the scouring - where you have access to opposite corners, with a 9" no-man's land in the middle.
I had less drops and went second. Also, I don't play sisters of battle. I didn't know they could do a 25+ inch move on turn 1 to get into flamer range, that's impressive. Your alpha strike is better than mine, that's for sure.
Going first would have helped dramatically.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 17:45:42
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Katherine, in ITC you don't automatically go first if you have less drops. Counting a seize roll, it's roughly 60-40 if you finish first. Additionally you don't pick the deployment type or terrain, it's defined at the outsight on the mission printout.
And the deployment - I believe it's called the scouring - where you have access to opposite corners, with a 9" no-man's land in the middle.
I had less drops and went second. Also, I don't play sisters of battle. I didn't know they could do a 25+ inch move on turn 1 to get into flamer range, that's impressive. Your alpha strike is better than mine, that's for sure.
Going first would have helped dramatically.
You didn't specify it was ITC. And, well, I don't play ITC outside of well, tournaments.
And I really, really like the way deployment works this edition anyway. It's pretty fair, I think, and adds more thought to list building. I have to balance the want for massive firepower with toughness, because an army with massive firepower won't be going first. I used to run Basilisks, Manticores, Wyverns, Mynondoras Odon, and Coteaz in an effort to remove about half the enemy army before they took their first turn and ensure I went first, which, outside of the cheesiest of cheese, worked extremely well, but that's not possible anymore.
And, I also offered solutions for the Tyranids and the Harlequins.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 18:03:16
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
vipoid wrote: I have a question for those of you who have had frustrating games against conscripts: what did they actually do?
I ask because I keep hearing that they are used as bubble-wrap for artillery/tanks and that they were a pain to kill.
But, given that intervening models don't provide cover in this edition (and there's no way conscripts can completely block LoS to a tank), could you not have just shot the artillery and largely ignored the conscripts? I would assume that the bulk of the enemy fire was from the tanks/artillery and not the conscripts (otherwise, why bother even using the former?), so by taking those out first you leave the enemy with a unit that is quite tough but severely lacking in firepower.
Stop repeating the "lacking in firepower" thing. They have more firepower than most basic infantry. If run in tight squads with a commander, they easily have more firepower than my vanguard, a squad designed to shoot tons of str 3. They are not lacking offensively. Stop repeating this.
Next, objectives are a thing. Kill points are a thing. A big chunk of your army refusing to die makes both of those much easier to manage.
Arbitrator wrote: If you're having such a problem with hordes then being anti-horde kit. You're a Space Muhreen player right? Not as if you don't have a tool for every situation spoonfed to you anyway. Yeah, hordes may suck to fight against when you're bringing an All-Comerslist but if you know what you're going to be up against... well, plan accordingly.
No one has tools to deal with conscripts efficiently. Termagaunts, ork boys, brimstone horrors? We have tools for those. Because they are coated correctly. Nothing is point efficient compared to conscripts.
Space Marines also now have the option of just playing Raven Guard, now everything the IG can throw at them just hits on 5 and Conscripts hit on 6. Anything gets within 12" to negate their chapter tactic? Assault it so it can't shoot anyway.
ross-128 wrote: Space Marines also now have the option of just playing Raven Guard, now everything the IG can throw at them just hits on 5 and Conscripts hit on 6. Anything gets within 12" to negate their chapter tactic? Assault it so it can't shoot anyway.
I'm waiting to see what, if any, cost there is for that. Being able to cut conscripts firepower in half would almost make them balanced though.
As it stands, I'm mostly enjoying the knowledge at least one of my armies (CSM/DG) gets a codex soon, and my local group has already decided we plan to use them as soon as they come out.
Marmatag wrote: Katherine, in ITC you don't automatically go first if you have less drops. Counting a seize roll, it's roughly 60-40 if you finish first. Additionally you don't pick the deployment type or terrain, it's defined at the outsight on the mission printout.
And the deployment - I believe it's called the scouring - where you have access to opposite corners, with a 9" no-man's land in the middle.
I had less drops and went second. Also, I don't play sisters of battle. I didn't know they could do a 25+ inch move on turn 1 to get into flamer range, that's impressive. Your alpha strike is better than mine, that's for sure.
Going first would have helped dramatically.
You didn't specify it was ITC. And, well, I don't play ITC outside of well, tournaments.
And I really, really like the way deployment works this edition anyway. It's pretty fair, I think, and adds more thought to list building. I have to balance the want for massive firepower with toughness, because an army with massive firepower won't be going first. I used to run Basilisks, Manticores, Wyverns, Mynondoras Odon, and Coteaz in an effort to remove about half the enemy army before they took their first turn and ensure I went first, which, outside of the cheesiest of cheese, worked extremely well, but that's not possible anymore.
And, I also offered solutions for the Tyranids and the Harlequins.
It was a tournament, but i can't imagine anyone playing any ruleset other than ITC at this point. Being able to always go first seems unfair, especially when half of the enemy army must be on the table.
I did mention it was ITC, but after the original post asking for feedback. I also didn't mention that there were buildings between the zones, so you can't move in a straight line to get to the guard.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Katherine, in ITC you don't automatically go first if you have less drops. Counting a seize roll, it's roughly 60-40 if you finish first. Additionally you don't pick the deployment type or terrain, it's defined at the outsight on the mission printout.
And the deployment - I believe it's called the scouring - where you have access to opposite corners, with a 9" no-man's land in the middle.
I had less drops and went second. Also, I don't play sisters of battle. I didn't know they could do a 25+ inch move on turn 1 to get into flamer range, that's impressive. Your alpha strike is better than mine, that's for sure.
Going first would have helped dramatically.
You're Grey Knights, right?
How about try:
2x Grand Masters, one with Infinity Gate and one with Hammerhand, both with Psilencers
4x Strike Squad with Psilencer
1x Interceptors with Psilencer
1x Interceptors w/o Psilencer
Purge Soul across the the board.
Start with Infinity gate, a strike squad, and the Interceptors on the board. Hide in a house or something. Turn 1, move everything up to 9" from the conscripts using Infinity Gate, deep strike, and the Interceptor's ability, purge soul the Commissar, then dump bullets into them. It's crappy that you don't get Bolt Pistols, too, but you do get 138 S4 AP0 shots, as well as 8 more mortal wounds. Assuming you rolled not-crap for Purge Soul, you just wiped out the Conscripts. Otherwise, with clever target selection, you can probably still get off a charge. Be aware, because you might want to drop in cover if you don't think you can keep a 9" charge after your shooting phase. Take the Manticore salvo, lose maybe 10 guys, then close in and melee them to death with Force Falchions.
The only problem is that it may not work as well as Dominions or Hormagaunts because the IG player actually has the ability to play against it, with a wider conscript perimeter and protecting the Commissar by placing him at the end of a conga-line of conscripts behind the Manticores, at which point you do have to slog your way through. In this case, I might keep the interceptors at the max range they can be, then wait for the opening once the conscripts thin out and use their ability then to push in and keep up the pressure.
It was a tournament, but i can't imagine anyone playing any ruleset other than ITC at this point. Being able to always go first seems unfair, especially when half of the enemy army must be on the table.
I did mention it was ITC, but after the original post asking for feedback. I also didn't mention that there were buildings between the zones, so you can't move in a straight line to get to the guard.
I plan to avoid ITC rules, unless I'm playing tournaments.
The regular deployment scheme actually is designed to balance armies that are trying to go for a maximum-power alpha-strike. It does a fairly good job of it too, until two armies with the same idea come up upon one another.
One major balancing factor of Guard alpha-strike lists is the fact that they almost always have to go second, which gives the enemy a turn to react to it. Armies like the Sisters and Grey Knights, who are also armies that can do a powerful alpha-strike, but not as powerful as the rain of fire the Guard brings, get fewer drops than the Guard and get to do their before the Guard does.
Armies that have less firepower and more toughness get to go first more often than those like guard who have lots of killy, fragile units.
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Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
SilverAlien wrote: If run in tight squads with a commander, they easily have more firepower than my vanguard, a squad designed to shoot tons of str 3.
What are you basing that on? I've yet to see you provide any math on this.
SilverAlien wrote: They are not lacking offensively. Stop repeating this.
Again, make me.
SilverAlien wrote: Next, objectives are a thing. Kill points are a thing. A big chunk of your army refusing to die makes both of those much easier to manage.
If conscripts are a "big chunk of your army" then what's the problem again?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: I have a question for those of you who have had frustrating games against conscripts: what did they actually do?
I ask because I keep hearing that they are used as bubble-wrap for artillery/tanks and that they were a pain to kill.
But, given that intervening models don't provide cover in this edition (and there's no way conscripts can completely block LoS to a tank), could you not have just shot the artillery and largely ignored the conscripts? I would assume that the bulk of the enemy fire was from the tanks/artillery and not the conscripts (otherwise, why bother even using the former?), so by taking those out first you leave the enemy with a unit that is quite tough but severely lacking in firepower.
Why do you bring real actual games into this? This is all about mathhammer and theory crafting which clearly shows that conscripts and commissars are ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.
If we don't see that reflected in actual play, that's because people are playing the game wrong.
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Quickjager wrote: Let me grab that tank! Oh not available to Grey Knights. Also many of those FW tanks are in and of themselves undercosted. But I suppose that isn't anything new...
As for countering it, it is a counter for the sole reason they can shoot while locked in combat which means, Conscripts can do nothing for all intents and purposes while the baneblade gets full value of its shooting.
Right... so armies should be balanced around what choices are available to Grey Knights?
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vipoid wrote: Citation needed. What are you basing that on? I've yet to see you provide any math on this.
A vanguard gets 3 str 3 shots at 18 inches for 10 points. For the same cost, you get 3 conscripts, having 3 shots at 12-24 and 6 at 0-12, with BS 5+ (so half as many hit).
So at 18-24 conscripts have the advantage cause anything beats 0. At 12-18 vanguard is putting out twice as much damage due to higher BS. At 0-12, they are the same, vanguard has twice as many shots with half the BS.
That's *WITHOUT* a commander doubling up to 100 conscripts firepower for 30 points.
Vanguard offer more firepower than most infantry units. 3 str 3 shots is better than 1-2 str 4 shots from a tactical or SoB, for roughly equivalent prices.
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Aesthete wrote: Why do you bring real actual games into this? This is all about mathhammer and theory crafting which clearly shows that conscripts and commissars are ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.
If we don't see that reflected in actual play, that's because people are playing the game wrong.
Honestly, some people here have basically said they don't believe conscripts firepower could ever be useful, and have thus never bothered with FRFSRF or even concentrating them to try and shoot down an enemy unit as needed. So yes, some people have totally and fully admitted they've never even tried to use conscripts for anything but screening. Every time I mention how they are good at holding objectives I get crickets, as if people never realized cheap models = easier time controlling objectives, or have never bothered to concentrate conscripts around one for that purpose either.
So yes, every time someone insists all conscripts are good for is screening, that tells me they've never even tried to use them for anything else. Because I've played people who have done so, and seen conscripts can do a lot more than that.
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vipoid wrote: I have a question for those of you who have had frustrating games against conscripts: what did they actually do?
I ask because I keep hearing that they are used as bubble-wrap for artillery/tanks and that they were a pain to kill.
But, given that intervening models don't provide cover in this edition (and there's no way conscripts can completely block LoS to a tank), could you not have just shot the artillery and largely ignored the conscripts? I would assume that the bulk of the enemy fire was from the tanks/artillery and not the conscripts (otherwise, why bother even using the former?), so by taking those out first you leave the enemy with a unit that is quite tough but severely lacking in firepower.
Why do you bring real actual games into this? This is all about mathhammer and theory crafting which clearly shows that conscripts and commissars are ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.
If we don't see that reflected in actual play, that's because people are playing the game wrong.
That's because mathhammer clearly shows how easy it is to get 50 Conscripts with an attendant Commissar and Commander into rapid fire range to use FRFSRF on 180pts of models in a vacuum on planet beachball with your opponent happily complying and not doing anything, of course.
Or, in the case of artillery hiding behind a conscript shield - because mathhammer clearly shows your opponent is only going to focus on your Conscripts, in particular charging them so they can fall back and fire using GBITF every turn while everything else shoots too or focusing all their fire on the real threat: Conscripts! Not the four Manticores/whatever flavor of IG artillery you want. They're the obvious meat shields in these scenarios; Conscripts are the uberman superthreat.
Horde armies are a thing now. If you can't beat 150 Conscripts, what are you going to do against green tide Orks? Orks are near the bottom tier, right? But could you beat 180 Ork Boyz that have FNP/5++? I mean, I guess so, since they're not Conscripts.
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GhostRecon wrote: Horde armies are a thing now. If you can't beat 150 Conscripts, what are you going to do against green tide Orks? Orks are near the bottom tier, right? But could you beat 180 Ork Boyz that have FNP/5++? I mean, I guess so, since they're not Conscripts.
Yeah, because every ork I kill is worth two conscripts. Orks have half as many models on the field in the first place, and those buffs you mentioned cost far more and are far less effective (big mek effects models within 9" for example). Plenty of things can clear normal, non conscript infantry hordes just fine.
No one has trouble killing those hordes because those armies are costed correctly, how is this unclear? That's why we don't complain about hordes, we complain about conscripts.. Because your hordes are too cheap and overpowered by comparison to every other horde army!
Do you not get this? It's like arguing no one had trouble killing carnifexes last edition, so why were people complaining about riptides? The answer is, one of those models was far far more point efficient than the other, and thus broken.
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Though at T4 and 5++ with FNP they'd arguably be twice as hard to kill. Sure, they need support to get 5++ and FNP, but conscripts need support to not evaporate under a stern gaze. And a lot of Ork support tends to be a pretty decent fightin' unit itself.
GhostRecon wrote: Horde armies are a thing now. If you can't beat 150 Conscripts, what are you going to do against green tide Orks? Orks are near the bottom tier, right? But could you beat 180 Ork Boyz that have FNP/5++? I mean, I guess so, since they're not Conscripts.
Yeah, because every ork I kill is worth two conscripts. Orks have half as many models on the field in the first place, and those buffs you mentioned cost far more and are far less effective (big mek effects models within 9" for example). Plenty of things can clear normal, non conscript infantry hordes just fine.
No one has trouble killing those hordes because those armies are costed correctly, how is this unclear? That's why we don't complain about hordes, we complain about conscripts.. Because your hordes are too cheap and overpowered by comparison to every other horde army!
Do you not get this? It's like arguing no one had trouble killing carnifexes last edition, so why are people complaining about riptides? The answer is, one of those models was far far more point efficient than the other, and thus broken.
Actually I think Conscripts are fairly priced; as I've said before, it's a perfect storm of situations that the conscripts sort of 'fell' into utility inadvertently. A conscript is 1PPM cheaper than a guardsman for -1BS, -1WS, and -2 LD, while everything else is identical. I think that's a fair price discount for a stat loss. It isn't the conscripts fault that other units help mitigate their shortcomings.
Any price increase would make conscripts overpriced in a situation where those characters are slain/unavailable/whatever
If you're having such a problem with hordes then being anti-horde kit. You're a Space Muhreen player right? Not as if you don't have a tool for every situation spoonfed to you anyway. Yeah, hordes may suck to fight against when you're bringing an All-Comerslist but if you know what you're going to be up against... well, plan accordingly. 
