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SilverAlien wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
Horde armies are a thing now. If you can't beat 150 Conscripts, what are you going to do against green tide Orks? Orks are near the bottom tier, right? But could you beat 180 Ork Boyz that have FNP/5++? I mean, I guess so, since they're not Conscripts.

Yeah, because every ork I kill is worth two conscripts. Orks have half as many models on the field in the first place, and those buffs you mentioned cost far more and are far less effective (big mek effects models within 9" for example). Plenty of things can clear normal, non conscript infantry hordes just fine.

No one has trouble killing those hordes because those armies are costed correctly, how is this unclear? That's why we don't complain about hordes, we complain about conscripts.. Because your hordes are too cheap and overpowered by comparison to every other horde army!

Do you not get this? It's like arguing no one had trouble killing carnifexes last edition, so why were people complaining about riptides? The answer is, one of those models was far far more point efficient than the other, and thus broken.

Let's see a horde list using Conscripts at ITC 2k pts, then. In this or in the locked other thread, I think I'm the only one who's posted one. One that's a TAC that could actually beat other tournament winners out there. Then do one where Conscripts are suddenly 4ppm - if you look, it won't have changed much.

As I and others have said, Conscripts points aren't the problem. Even at 4ppm they're no different. Their synergy with both Commissars and Orders are the problem.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually I think Conscripts are fairly priced; as I've said before, it's a perfect storm of situations that the conscripts sort of 'fell' into utility inadvertently. A conscript is 1PPM cheaper than a guardsman for -1BS, -1WS, and -2 LD, while everything else is identical. I think that's a fair price discount for a stat loss. It isn't the conscripts fault that other units help mitigate their shortcomings.

Any price increase would make conscripts overpriced in a situation where those characters are slain/unavailable/whatever

That's a fair price to apy for the absurd synergy they have. Or 6+ armor. If they work that well with characters, they should be trash without characters. That's an actual weakness. If they kinda work without characters but are amazing with them, that's overpowered. So either kill the synergy or have conscripts priced/balanced so anyone running them without support would be laughed at. Kinda like how termagaunts or grots are.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually I think Conscripts are fairly priced; as I've said before, it's a perfect storm of situations that the conscripts sort of 'fell' into utility inadvertently. A conscript is 1PPM cheaper than a guardsman for -1BS, -1WS, and -2 LD, while everything else is identical. I think that's a fair price discount for a stat loss. It isn't the conscripts fault that other units help mitigate their shortcomings.

Any price increase would make conscripts overpriced in a situation where those characters are slain/unavailable/whatever

That's a fair price to apy for the absurd synergy they have. Or 6+ armor. If they work that well with characters, they should be trash without characters. That's an actual weakness. If they kinda work without characters but are amazing with them, that's overpowered. So either kill the synergy or have conscripts priced/balanced so anyone running them without support would be laughed at. Kinda like how termagaunts or grots are.

Grots are overpriced, and I don't know much about termagaunts but if they can't stand on their own they're overpriced too.

Conscripts don't actaully have absurd synergy. They have 0 synergetic special rules. The rules that work well for them come from other models, which I could see you should increase in price, though then you're just making the problem of conscript spam worse because those units are now too expensive to support only a 10 man squad with.

Conscripts are absolutely trash without extra characters. Heck, against my army, Conscripts are /actually/ trash, even with characters, but superheavy tanks are apparently taboo or something for other armies to run.

SilverAlien wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Citation needed. What are you basing that on? I've yet to see you provide any math on this.

A vanguard gets 3 str 3 shots at 18 inches for 10 points. For the same cost, you get 3 conscripts, having 3 shots at 12-24 and 6 at 0-12, with BS 5+ (so half as many hit).

So at 18-24 conscripts have the advantage cause anything beats 0. At 12-18 vanguard is putting out twice as much damage due to higher BS. At 0-12, they are the same, vanguard has twice as many shots with half the BS.

That's *WITHOUT* a commander doubling up to 100 conscripts firepower for 30 points.

Vanguard offer more firepower than most infantry units. 3 str 3 shots is better than 1-2 str 4 shots from a tactical or SoB, for roughly equivalent prices.

Sisters have 4 S4 Shots, because you are using Dominions, who are 12ppm with a Storm Bolter, and will get into Rapid-Fire range.

Also, are you talking about Skitarii Vanguard, not Vanguard Vets?

SilverAlien wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aesthete wrote:
Why do you bring real actual games into this? This is all about mathhammer and theory crafting which clearly shows that conscripts and commissars are ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

If we don't see that reflected in actual play, that's because people are playing the game wrong.

Honestly, some people here have basically said they don't believe conscripts firepower could ever be useful, and have thus never bothered with FRFSRF or even concentrating them to try and shoot down an enemy unit as needed. So yes, some people have totally and fully admitted they've never even tried to use conscripts for anything but screening. Every time I mention how they are good at holding objectives I get crickets, as if people never realized cheap models = easier time controlling objectives, or have never bothered to concentrate conscripts around one for that purpose either.

So yes, every time someone insists all conscripts are good for is screening, that tells me they've never even tried to use them for anything else. Because I've played people who have done so, and seen conscripts can do a lot more than that.

Every player I've seen cluster up the conscripts to get everyone in FRFSRF has either done it at the end of the game, once the enemy has been worn out and isn't a threat anymore, or has lost quickly as a direct result of doing so. If the conscripts shorten their perimeter, the enemy just goes around.

I there was an IG player running tanks & conscripts yesterday, with sentinels for flank support. He was playing Harelquins, and when his conscripts moved together to bring all power to bear on a Starweaver [and kill it, with the help of another rifle squad with an Autocannon], two more starweavers jumped over the battle line and got stuck in with the tanks, turning them off.

I almost lost when Carnifexes breached the perimeter one time, as a result of Hormagaunts killing off about 40 of the guys, but I fed them a Land Raider to slow them down and rushed Leman Russes into position to finish them off.

Yeah, conscripts can't both be a shooting phalanx and a screening unit at the same time.

They're either awful at shooting, but spread out and can protect the tanks, or good at shooting but not as good as the tanks they just abandoned to get blenderized.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Sisters have 4 S4 Shots, because you are using Dominions, who are 12ppm with a Storm Bolter, and will get into Rapid-Fire range.

Also, are you talking about Skitarii Vanguard, not Vanguard Vets?

Skitarii Vanguard, because I'm comparing basic infantry troop choices, not special weapon troops like dominions.

If we have to lo0k outside the troop slot fore firepower to match conscripts then they are, say it with me now, overpowered.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Every player I've seen cluster up the conscripts to get everyone in FRFSRF has either done it at the end of the game, once the enemy has been worn out and isn't a threat anymore, or has lost quickly as a direct result of doing so. If the conscripts shorten their perimeter, the enemy just goes around.

I there was an IG player running tanks & conscripts yesterday, with sentinels for flank support. He was playing Harelquins, and when his conscripts moved together to bring all power to bear on a Starweaver [and kill it, with the help of another rifle squad], two more starweavers jumped over the battle line and got stuck in with the tanks, turning them off..

Yes, you don't concentrate them when they are 100% still essential obviously, but as cheap as they are, there is no reason you can't run enough to do both! You can have your screening unit and your concentrated firepower objective holder, it's not liek there is any limitation on conscripts beyond troop slots currently.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, conscripts can't both be a shooting phalanx and a screening unit at the same time.

They're either awful at shooting, but spread out and can protect the tanks, or good at shooting but not as good as the tanks they just abandoned to get blenderized.

They are a troop choice in an army with the cheapest and most useful HQs, who cost at absolute most 150 points for a full unit. Run enough for both!

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Sisters have 4 S4 Shots, because you are using Dominions, who are 12ppm with a Storm Bolter, and will get into Rapid-Fire range.

Also, are you talking about Skitarii Vanguard, not Vanguard Vets?

Skitarii Vanguard, because I'm comparing basic infantry troop choices, not special weapon troops like dominions.

If we have to lo0k outside the troop slot fore firepower to match conscripts then they are, say it with me now, overpowered.

First of all, why? Is there some rule somewhere that says troops must have less firepower than, say, an HQ? Or anything else outside of the troops slots? Because Armoured Battlegroup has Leman Russ tanks as troops, and you've got to look to the Heavy Support section of Codex: IG to find firepower to match those troops.

Anyway, here's my recommendation for facing IG:

Melee. Fast Melee.

Fast Melee with Fly is even better.

You also have tanks, and tanks are fast. Tanks can melee. It's stupid, but it's true. If tanks melee the Conscripts, they're putting out half their firepower. If tanks lead a melee blender into combat, such as Khorne Berzerkers, well, the Conscripts can kiss their sorry asses goodbye.

Fast Melee with Fly can ignore the conscripts entirely, and just jump over them to chase after the big guys propping them up. IG tanks can't shoot if someone is engaging them in melee.



For armies that can't just zip up 24" on or before turn 1, I recommend transport tanks full of nasty things like Khorne Berzerkers. Even if they blow up all your boxes, the nasty in the box if pretty much fine, and you have an easy turn-2 charge with all your berserkers.



Really, from looking around, I'm seeing that most armies can deal with Conscripts and the armor behind them. Not easily, and not without some losses, but why should it be easy to wipe us off the table?

SilverAlien wrote:


They are a troop choice in an army with the cheapest and most useful HQs, who cost at absolute most 150 points for a full unit. Run enough for both!

So your problem is with IG in general... or?

Because 150pts for a full unit you bought just for shooting in a lasgun phalanx could've bought you a Manticore and a Master of Ordinance to give it re-rolls? Which will have way more firepower than that conscript phalanx you are so worried about?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


They are a troop choice in an army with the cheapest and most useful HQs, who cost at absolute most 150 points for a full unit. Run enough for both!

So your problem is with IG in general... or?

Because 150pts for a full unit you bought just for shooting in a lasgun phalanx could've bought you a Manticore and a Master of Ordinance to give it re-rolls? Which will have way more firepower than that conscript phalanx you are so worried about?

It's really a minimum of 200pts taking one troop and two elite slots because Conscripts without a Commissar and someone giving Orders are substantially less useful (arguably useless).

SilverAlien wrote:
So yes, every time someone insists all conscripts are good for is screening, that tells me they've never even tried to use them for anything else. Because I've played people who have done so, and seen conscripts can do a lot more than that.

Yes.

Can anyone identify a basic troop - or any infantry - that does better versus any one wound targets once you factor in an order?

If conscripts are crap damage then every other basic troop is worse.

You don't need that 200 lasgun volley (although if you get it, and you will from time to time from botched assaults, you are laughing). 100 lasgun shots from 210~ points is more than enough - any getting into rapid fire range is just a further boost. In a stand up fight the conscripts do 3 times their damage to some hypothetical Marines. Even if you start going "well, my Marines are always in cover" (we both know this isn't true) they do 50% more.

They also don't die. They have better armour than gaunts and are cheaper. Boys are 100% more points but you will only kill 20% more conscripts with an S3 hit and just 6.6% more with a S4 hit. Yes you can chuck in painboys but that is further investment and it doesn't help much. You will kill about 2.6 conscripts for every Marine at S4 - but before weapons Marines are over 4 times the points (obviously this changes with Ravenguard).

If you have a weapon which will kill conscripts you will annihilate most other 1 wound infantry (except maybe brimstone - because they are equally stupid).

I also don't buy this "well its really hard to get all 50 guys into 24" range of something". It isn't. Sure its going to come down to how much LOS blocking terrain but unless you are piling on terrain to the point where its more like game of necromunda then most of the table is going to be open. That is true of my FLGS and every tournament I can think of. Its not a featureless desert but there are probably only a few truly LOS blocking pieces. You can't hide your entire army behind them.
Furthermore if you do pile on so much LOS blocking terrain that no one can draw a bead on anyone for several turns it just makes Guard artillery even more advantageous.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So your problem is with IG in general... or?

Because 150pts for a full unit you bought just for shooting in a lasgun phalanx could've bought you a Manticore and a Master of Ordinance to give it re-rolls? Which will have way more firepower than that conscript phalanx you are so worried about?

Okay, now compare it to an anti infantry option, like a wyvern. Compare say two wyverns vs 50 conscripts and a commander.

56 str 4 shots at bs 4+ vs 100-200 str 3 shots at bs 5+, even if you aren't getting most in rapid fire you are basically on par damage wise. The advantage wyverns have isn't firepower, it's range. While the conscripts are harder to kill and can hold objectives, and don't eat into heavy support slots you need for anti tank like say... manticores.

Using conscripts as general purpose infantry is perfectly viable. It's a good way to deal with other infantry and take objectives, in addition to screening.

Tyel wrote:
Can anyone identify a basic troop - or any infantry - that does better versus any one wound targets once you factor in an order?

If conscripts are crap damage then every other basic troop is worse.

Exactly, other infantry don't compare to the absurdity than is conscripts.

Dominions can put out ever so much more firepower for cost... ignoring orders. They also aren't anywhere near as tough, and can't hold objectives as well. But they are still one of the rare exceptions, most armies don't have anything comparable to dominions either.

GhostRecon wrote:
It's really a minimum of 200pts taking one troop and two elite slots because Conscripts without a Commissar and someone giving Orders are substantially less useful (arguably useless).

Take a company commander a commissar, two units of conscripts around them. You save points and you have to fill HQ slots anyways. It's safer and more efficient that way,

Tyel wrote:
Can anyone identify a basic troop - or any infantry - that does better versus any one wound targets

Since we're talking about in a vacuum-- yes, actually, I can. Battle Sister Squads can output 72 boltgun shots at 3+ to-hit when in rapid fire range.

And that's WITHOUT HQ support. Add in a cheap canoness and they reroll half their misses, doing even more damage.

Fun fact is, canoness' support feature is an aura, not an order. So it can apply to as many squads as you want provided you can have at least one model in her a 12" circle.

Tyel wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
So yes, every time someone insists all conscripts are good for is screening, that tells me they've never even tried to use them for anything else. Because I've played people who have done so, and seen conscripts can do a lot more than that.

Can anyone identify a basic troop - or any infantry - that does better versus any one wound targets once you factor in an order?

I believe Eldar Guardians do better against T4 2+, like Rubric Marines.

 Melissia wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Can anyone identify a basic troop - or any infantry - that does better versus any one wound targets

Since we're talking about in a vacuum-- yes, actually, I can. Battle Sister Squads can output 72 boltgun shots at 3+ to-hit when in rapid fire range.

And that's WITHOUT HQ support. Add in a cheap canoness and they reroll half their misses, doing even more damage.

No they can't. 150 points of SoB (153 technically) can only output 34 shots. Even dominions armed with combi bolters only put out 52 shots, and we've already established they are another exception, and that 4 point combi bolter probably was balanced and not a typo given how powerful dominions again are compared to other similar units.

Tyel wrote:
[quote=SilverAlien 733123 9502155 null
I also don't buy this "well its really hard to get all 50 guys into 24" range of something". It isn't. Sure its going to come down to how much LOS blocking terrain but unless you are piling on terrain to the point where its more like game of necromunda then most of the table is going to be open. That is true of my FLGS and every tournament I can think of. Its not a featureless desert but there are probably only a few truly LOS blocking pieces. You can't hide your entire army behind them.
Furthermore if you do pile on so much LOS blocking terrain that no one can draw a bead on anyone for several turns it just makes Guard artillery even more advantageous.

It's difficult to simultaneously stretch across the table to make an impossible wound allocation wall and then immediately contracting around a nucleus to be able to infinitely protect the commissar and FRFSRF with all 50 into something. Yeah, 60 points of fragile support can make them potentially hurt something, but they can't effectively do that and do everything else they're villianized for at the exact same time.

A lot of the things I'm reading remind me of the 5th ed GK hate threads. In a bad way.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So your problem is with IG in general... or?

Because 150pts for a full unit you bought just for shooting in a lasgun phalanx could've bought you a Manticore and a Master of Ordnance to give it re-rolls? Which will have way more firepower than that conscript phalanx you are so worried about?

Okay, now compare it to an anti infantry option, like a wyvern. Compare say two wyverns vs 50 conscripts and a commander.

56 str 4 shots at bs 4+ vs 100-200 str 3 shots at bs 5+, even if you aren't getting most in rapid fire you are basically on par damage wise. The advantage wyverns have isn't firepower, it's range. While the conscripts are harder to kill and can hold objectives, and don't eat into heavy support slots you need for anti tank like say... manticores.

So your refutation that 150 points of firepower is better spent on a Manticore is that... "Yes that's true. Here's this other unit that you didn't mention. SEE! It's the same as Conscripts. Except for range, where it's way better. Instead of better range, though, conscripts get these other things over here!" while somehow failing to mention that the Wyverns also do not require LOS to their targets.

Okay, I'm glad you see that Conscripts aren't OP then. *raises eyebrow in confusion*

What I don't understand is with all the suppose play testing, why is there no mechanic in the game that allows for additional dice to be used when units number more than 20+ models. They already have that mechanic with a handful of weapons that turn D3 into D6 when there are more than 5 models in a squad. Why did they not have flamers, light artillery, etc. get an additional D6 hits/shots against units with more than 20+ models. Especially since there are rules that kick in when a unit gets more than 20+ models (lesser daemons, orks) so they would know that these large size squads would be used. I think this would be the best way to "fix" the issue with large cheap model squads, without increasing weapon power against MEQ. It would also fill the need for weapons that can remove large numbers of cheap models which is lacking without templates.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So your refutation that 150 points of firepower is better spent on a Manticore is that... "Yes that's true. Here's this other unit that you didn't mention. SEE! It's the same as Conscripts. Except for range, where it's way better. Instead of better range, though, conscripts get these other things over here!" while somehow failing to mention that the Wyverns also do not require LOS to their targets.

Okay, I'm glad you see that Conscripts aren't OP then. *raises eyebrow in confusion*

I mean... you were arguing you'd be better of with an anti tank unit (manticore) than an anti infantry unit. You can take nothing but anti tank if you want.... but I'd assume you need some anti infantry in there somewhere. So I compared conscripts to the clsoest anti infantry cousin to a manticore, the wyvern.

If you want me to compare the manticore firing at infantry targets compared to the conscripts firing at infantry targets I could... I just assumed we could all kinda realize how that's going to go. The short version is, the conscripts kill dramatically more infantry than a manticore could ever hope to, because it is an anti tank weapon. Wooo?

If you can't see why basic infantry troops having the same rough firepower as artillery units, just with less range, I don't know how to help you.

 Aesthete wrote:

Why do you bring real actual games into this?

The fact that you actually asked that question is hilarious beyond belief. Do you play 40k via graph paper or something?

 Aesthete wrote:
This is all about mathhammer and theory crafting

Why? Surely their performance on the tabletop is also important? Especially since there are far too many variables for mathhammer to be anything more than a vague guide.

 Aesthete wrote:
If we don't see that reflected in actual play, that's because people are playing the game wrong.

"If the facts don't fit my world view, then clearly the facts are wrong!"

Regardless, to answer your initial question, I asked about actual games because I was genuinely curious. Nothing more. Nothing less. You see, while I play IG I've never actually used conscripts. Nor have I played against anyone who does. Hence, I wanted to know about tactics - not just pure numbers.

SilverAlien wrote:

A vanguard gets 3 str 3 shots at 18 inches for 10 points. For the same cost, you get 3 conscripts, having 3 shots at 12-24 and 6 at 0-12, with BS 5+ (so half as many hit).

So at 18-24 conscripts have the advantage cause anything beats 0. At 12-18 vanguard is putting out twice as much damage due to higher BS. At 0-12, they are the same, vanguard has twice as many shots with half the BS.

Vanguard weapons also do 2 damage on a to-wound roll of 6+. Also, unlike the Conscripts, the Vanguard can take 1 special weapon per 5.

In any case, I think you're vastly underestimating the difficulty of getting large numbers of conscripts into rapid-fire range. Especially if your opponent would rather you didn't.

What's more, we seem to once again be faced with Schrodinger's Conscripts. One moment they're a problem because they're bubble-wrapping artillery, the next moment they're apparently advancing as a block into rapid-fire range.

SilverAlien wrote:
Vanguard offer more firepower than most infantry units. 3 str 3 shots is better than 1-2 str 4 shots from a tactical or SoB, for roughly equivalent prices.

Well, as you yourself said above, they'll obviously lose at the 18<-24" range. They'll probably be better at the 12<-18" range and about the same at 0-12".

They certainly wouldn't be my choice for infantry with the most firepower (I'd probably lean towards something like Immortals), though I'll confess to not having done the math.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So your refutation that 150 points of firepower is better spent on a Manticore is that... "Yes that's true. Here's this other unit that you didn't mention. SEE! It's the same as Conscripts. Except for range, where it's way better. Instead of better range, though, conscripts get these other things over here!" while somehow failing to mention that the Wyverns also do not require LOS to their targets.

Okay, I'm glad you see that Conscripts aren't OP then. *raises eyebrow in confusion*

I mean... you were arguing you'd be better of with an anti tank unit (manticore) than an anti infantry unit. You can take nothing but anti tank if you want.... but I'd assume you need some anti infantry in there somewhere. So I compared conscripts to the clsoest anti infantry cousin to a manticore, the wyvern.

If you want me to compare the manticore firing at infantry targets compared to the conscripts firing at infantry targets I could... I just assumed we could all kinda realize how that's going to go. The short version is, the conscripts kill dramatically more infantry than a manticore could ever hope to, because it is an anti tank weapon. Wooo?

If you can't see why basic infantry troops having the same rough firepower as artillery units, just with less range, I don't know how to help you.

The Manticore is an anti-everything platform, just like everything in this edition. The reason I bring it up is, against many armies (mine included), the Manticore is far far more valuable than the conscripts to the game, despite being cheaper in points.

Tank companies with 0 infantry are a thing now, so conscript hordes are in trouble. Flyer armies with 0 infantry are a thing now too, so conscript hordes also have trouble there. I could go on, if you like, but my point is that sometimes you need more than a lasgun for your 150 points, so the reason someone might not take 300 points of conscripts is that 150 is enough to screen their army, and 300 points is eating into firepower they have for other things, like, say, anti-tank weapons.

As for your last point, I really don't see a problem there. The artillery and infantry have similar targets, similar guns, and the artillery drastically outranges the infantry and does not require line of sight like the infantry do. Artillery drastically outperforming the infantry seems fine to me.

 vipoid wrote:
They certainly wouldn't be my choice for infantry with the most firepower (I'd probably lean towards something like Immortals), though I'll confess to not having done the math.

I merely picked the best one of the armies I was most familiar with.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Manticore is an anti-everything target, just like everything in this edition. The reason I bring it up is, against many armies (mine included), the Manticore is far far more valuable than the conscripts to the game, despite being cheaper in points.

Tank companies with 0 infantry are a thing now, so conscript hordes are in trouble. Flyer armies with 0 infantry are a thing now too, so conscript hordes also have trouble there. I could go on, if you like, but my point is that sometimes you need more than a lasgun for your 150 points, so the reason someone might not take 300 points of conscripts is that 150 is enough to screen their army, and 300 points is eating into firepower they have for other things, like, say, anti-tank weapons.

As for your last point, I really don't see a problem there. The artillery and infantry have similar targets, similar guns, and the artillery drastically outranges the infantry and does not require line of sight like the infantry do. Artillery drastically outperforming the infantry seems fine to me.

No it isn't? It's awful against anything with a single wound, and cheaper 2 wound models aren't worth it. It has an average of 7 shots, at bs 4, and only fires four turns. That means that, fire at infantry, you will manage 14 kills on average, and even that's assuming you always wound and they don't have a save higher than a 5+. You do not fire a manticore at infantry unless the are multiwound infantry like terminators or something. Even primaris may not be valuable enough to justify shooting at.

Well... yes sometimes you'll run up against an army that uses no infantry and anti infantry units are wasted. That doesn't mean they aren't a good anti infantry choice. Considering a tac list tends be even split 4 units at 600 points, 700 with HQ, could be a reasonable investment.

Drastically outperforming? No. They aren't. That's the point. The conscripts actually put out more damage, the artillery just has more range on it. It isn't like we are talking abut sniping tanks or other artillery sitting at the back, this is anti infantry shooting. They are used for contesting objectives, and the conscripts still have two feet to work with.

xeen wrote:
What I don't understand is with all the suppose play testing, why is there no mechanic in the game that allows for additional dice to be used when units number more than 20+ models. They already have that mechanic with a handful of weapons that turn D3 into D6 when there are more than 5 models in a squad. Why did they not have flamers, light artillery, etc. get an additional D6 hits/shots against units with more than 20+ models. Especially since there are rules that kick in when a unit gets more than 20+ models (lesser daemons, orks) so they would know that these large size squads would be used. I think this would be the best way to "fix" the issue with large cheap model squads, without increasing weapon power against MEQ. It would also fill the need for weapons that can remove large numbers of cheap models which is lacking without templates.

Yes they really should have made a "you could throw a rock and hit three" rule for big units, similar to how templates used to hit swarms extra hard. Morale would be a nice counter if all the offenders weren't exceptionally good at ignoring the mechanic.

As (partially) a marine player I remember getting demonized because my dudes didn't care about morale. Now they do and other people don't, but that seems to be a-ok. Just your typical double standards from the marine haters I guess.

Actually 10 immortals with tesla carbines with no buffs or support beats 50 conscripts with a commissar as long as they stay outside rapid fire range, even if the conscripts get the first shot and use a FRFSRF order every single turn. If you include that immortals can often find a cover bonus while conscripts almost never get it it's even kinda lopsided. And the immortals are cheaper than the 50+commissar let alone if you start to factor in the cost of the orders, but they're basically the same cost once you get into taking only 1 commissar for 2 or 3 units.

It takes the better part of 6 turns to do it but like if you've ever seen conscripts in practice they aren't very elegant blobs, the more of them you take it doesn't get multiplicative where you can say oh but if i have 3 units of 50 i can kill a whole unit of immortals and deny RP, you just can't. They don't fit in range together and it's much easier for the equivalent 3 immortal units to pack in and focus down the closest unit to force the conscripts to keep funneling in about 60 at a time and they won't realistically have orders every turn.

I think part of the problem people are running into when trying to math hammer out conscripts is their applying all the benefits of a conscript squad all at once, without recognizing that conscripts can usually only fulfill one of these rolls at a time and never can without support.

For example "omg conscript FRFSR is so broken" the person then points out that you can simply ignore the conscripts and go run though the rest of the IG lines. The persons Conscripts are now magically bubble rapping the rest of the army so that can't happen. The issue is if you have conga lined your conscripts into bubble rap then you aren't going to be able to maximize your FRFSRF. The person now counters that theres a second conscript squad standing there because "why wouldn't there be" but has failed to ever use there cost or the cost of the officers needed to make sure that the conscript squad is even useful.

In reality i think conscripts are a very strong unit when being supported (can be said for many units in the game) and they are good at lots of things. This issue is that using that unit for one of its strengths reduces the other strengths. Like the example above if conscripts are being used to bubble rap a whole army they potential firepower is very limited as well as the characters that are supporting them because you have to create gaps that can often be charged out of. If you use them as a blob FRFSRF killing bubble then they 1. can't be used as bubble rap 2. suffer from mobility issues with multiple groups (have to either have characters to buff each individual group (increase the costs used in all this math hammer) or you are stuck moving in a 6' bubble because of lack of vox casters.

In conclusion i really believe people think they are broken because they are factoring everything that they can potentially do into their point cost while in reality they can usually only do one of those things. They also have a short range of fire and are often going to take a fair amount of casualties even from random small arms fire before they ever get to interact with anything thus reducing their effectiveness at the above rolls. Finally above all snipers are the great equalizer, i can attest to how useless conscripts are when one of their supports characters gets snipped out first turn.

TL;DR
Are they good... yes
Are they broken.... no (they have glaring weaknesses as well as requiring at minimum 2 characters support as well as having the glaring weakness of snipers

Tau fire warriors can also do a really good job against T4. For 8 points a model they get S5 AP- Rapid 1 30", with the range being an important factor because it gives them a larger kill zone and allows them to usually reach into the enemy's deployment zone.

But where it gets good is when they have characters. They can benefit from a looooot of buffs.

A Cadre Fireblade gives pulse weapons an extra shot at half range, so 3 shots at 15" for pulse rifles. So it's basically a discount FRFSRF, that sacrifices a bit of power for being an aura instead of a single-target buff.

A Commander lets them re-roll all failed to-hit rolls, again in an aura.

Darkstrider can make them count a target's toughness as being 1 lower, which can be a boost at T3, T5, T6, and T10. This one is single-target.

An Ethereal can give them 6+ FNP, grant them LD9, and shave a casualty off any morale results (making them effectively LD10). In a 5-man squad this makes them effectively immune to morale. In 10-man squads it means they can lose 5 models without risking a morale check, and the most they can lose to morale is 2 (at 7 casualties they can only lose 2, at 8 they only have 2 left to lose). Although it doesn't grant the FNP and -1 to morale results at the same time, unless you have two of them.

A pathfinder team with a pulse accelerator can add 6" to their range, giving them 36" and extending the Cadre Fireblade's buff range to 18".

Markerlights don't do anything for them until 4 and 5 (because they're already re-rolling to hit and aren't using heavy weapons), but if it does reach that point then they can ignore cover and get +1 to hit. It will apply to anything shooting that target though, so it can be good for concentrating fire.

Granted, if you were to go all-in on stacking as many Fire Warrior buffs as humanly (or xeno-ly) possible, your list would basically consist entirely of Fire Warriors and supporting characters. But if you're only looking at mathhammering it, you can make a pretty impressive Firewarrior Doom Blob.

Having looked at the ETC lists there appear to be at least 10 AM players bringing at least 100 conscripts. One guy is bringing 400. There are almost no AM lists without any conscripts, and the majority bring 100+. Stormraven spam is the game of the day though.

 ross-128 wrote:
Tau fire warriors can also do a really good job against T4. For 8 points a model they get S5 AP- Rapid 1 30", with the range being an important factor because it gives them a larger kill zone and allows them to usually reach into the enemy's deployment zone.

Do you want me to mathhammer everything out? I already did in a different thread talking about tournament tau lists, the bottom line is fire warriors don't even compare well to properly supported gun drones (who in turn aren't that amazing). Fireblades aren't worth the cost due to pricing as the aura is so small and firewarriors must be taken in MSU due to ever present morale issues, so you are better off with more fire warriors as far as firepower goes.

SilverAlien wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
It's really a minimum of 200pts taking one troop and two elite slots because Conscripts without a Commissar and someone giving Orders are substantially less useful (arguably useless).

Take a company commander a commissar, two units of conscripts around them. You save points and you have to fill HQ slots anyways. It's safer and more efficient that way,

Was going for absolute lowest amount of points; your suggestion is more efficient, but also costs 361pts.

GhostRecon wrote:
Was going for absolute lowest amount of points; your suggestion is more efficient, but also costs 361pts.

Fair enough, I just assumed taking them in intervals of two was generally what everyone would do for various reasons.