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Marmatag wrote: Katherine, in ITC you don't automatically go first if you have less drops. Counting a seize roll, it's roughly 60-40 if you finish first. Additionally you don't pick the deployment type or terrain, it's defined at the outsight on the mission printout.
And the deployment - I believe it's called the scouring - where you have access to opposite corners, with a 9" no-man's land in the middle.
I had less drops and went second. Also, I don't play sisters of battle. I didn't know they could do a 25+ inch move on turn 1 to get into flamer range, that's impressive. Your alpha strike is better than mine, that's for sure.
Going first would have helped dramatically.
You're Grey Knights, right?
How about try:
2x Grand Masters, one with Infinity Gate and one with Hammerhand, both with Psilencers
4x Strike Squad with Psilencer
1x Interceptors with Psilencer
1x Interceptors w/o Psilencer
Purge Soul across the the board.
Start with Infinity gate, a strike squad, and the Interceptors on the board. Hide in a house or something. Turn 1, move everything up to 9" from the conscripts using Infinity Gate, deep strike, and the Interceptor's ability, purge soul the Commissar, then dump bullets into them. It's crappy that you don't get Bolt Pistols, too, but you do get 138 S4 AP0 shots, as well as 8 more mortal wounds. Assuming you rolled not-crap for Purge Soul, you just wiped out the Conscripts. Otherwise, with clever target selection, you can probably still get off a charge. Be aware, because you might want to drop in cover if you don't think you can keep a 9" charge after your shooting phase. Take the Manticore salvo, lose maybe 10 guys, then close in and melee them to death with Force Falchions.
The only problem is that it may not work as well as Dominions or Hormagaunts because the IG player actually has the ability to play against it, with a wider conscript perimeter and protecting the Commissar by placing him at the end of a conga-line of conscripts behind the Manticores, at which point you do have to slog your way through. In this case, I might keep the interceptors at the max range they can be, then wait for the opening once the conscripts thin out and use their ability then to push in and keep up the pressure.
It was a tournament, but i can't imagine anyone playing any ruleset other than ITC at this point. Being able to always go first seems unfair, especially when half of the enemy army must be on the table.
I did mention it was ITC, but after the original post asking for feedback. I also didn't mention that there were buildings between the zones, so you can't move in a straight line to get to the guard.
I plan to avoid ITC rules, unless I'm playing tournaments.
The regular deployment scheme actually is designed to balance armies that are trying to go for a maximum-power alpha-strike. It does a fairly good job of it too, until two armies with the same idea come up upon one another.
One major balancing factor of Guard alpha-strike lists is the fact that they almost always have to go second, which gives the enemy a turn to react to it. Armies like the Sisters and Grey Knights, who are also armies that can do a powerful alpha-strike, but not as powerful as the rain of fire the Guard brings, get fewer drops than the Guard and get to do their before the Guard does.
Armies that have less firepower and more toughness get to go first more often than those like guard who have lots of killy, fragile units.
So, I am definitely adding more power armored GK into my army. I will happily admit that bringing paladins is a mistake in virtually any point size below 2,000. I definitely focus on incinerators, and psilencers. They're our best overall weapons - Incinerators because they're actually strength 6 flamers and wound guard on 2s, and psilencers because of volume of fire, and the ability to kill 2 wound models.
That said, I will also take an NDK. While they're not amazing, what they have is 12 wounds, and a 5++. A guard player must address the NDK, because if it makes it into melee with tanks, it will end people's day, with a strength 12, AP-4, D6 (3 dmg minimum) hammer.
But in reality, there is no 1,000 point GK list that can efficiently kill conscripts and also threaten tanks, while also being a "take all comers" list. My goal with the other list was a "take all comers" list. I actually did well against Necrons, Tau, and Space Marines. Additionally purge soul requires line of sight, as well as having a 12" range, so you'll never hit a commissar, period.
I do agree that going first with less deployments would directly benefit me... And while I would definitely prefer that, since ITC has made the call - even though they didn't have a vote, which I HATE - I'll stick with it until it changes.
Anyway, I still maintain that in its current form, Imperial Guard is way too strong, and conscripts are the reason for that. People mention they'd bring rank-and-file guardsman if conscripts got nerfed - fine - do that - i'm 100% okay with that. It's fluffy and strong. I have no issues with strong. I have issues with stuff that presents 0 counterplay on my part.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Anyway, I still maintain that in its current form, Imperial Guard is way too strong, and conscripts are the reason for that. People mention they'd bring rank-and-file guardsman if conscripts got nerfed - fine - do that - i'm 100% okay with that. It's fluffy and strong. I have no issues with strong. I have issues with stuff that presents 0 counterplay on my part.
Now, I don't play with Conscripts unless I want a fluffy battle, but if I had say 50 Conscripts and changed them into 40 Guardsmen instead, would you be able to counterplay it? Seems like 20% reduction of models would still present a challenge for armies which are struggling with 50. Now, maybe not 50 and 40, but 150 and 120 instead or whatever amount of Conscripts you have problem with switched to 75-80% of that in guardsmen?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 20:37:05
~5000 points of IG and DKoK
I'm awful at reading private messages, so just reply to the threads I'm visiting.
When I heard the Guardsmen were going to be 4 points each, I thought for sure this would be the death of Conscripts. After all, why bother with BS5+ on 50 guys when for 50 points more you get BS4+, increasing output 150%; that's 150% of the damage for 133% of the cost! But it turns out that all the fuss and complaining is about Conscripts, and even with their point cost reduction Guardsmen are left in the dust.
I like Conscripts. I used them with Cdr. Chenkov when he was a thing, and then didn't once he was removed because Guardsmen were just better. I'm glad they're good now; they're a unit that captures the spirit of the Imperial Guard quite well.
Anyway, I think conscripts are pretty fair. Tyranids can turn-1 charge en-masse easily, Sisters of Battle can cross the no-man's land for close-range shooting, devastating antiinfantry and antitank shooting on turn one with our entire force, Orks have a fair shot at getting a turn-1 charge with a single unit, and bring a huge amount of very scary infantry than can turn 2 charge at worse, Chaos Marines have Berzerkers who can ride up safely in a transport, and whether you kill the transport or not they're still charging on turn 2 and there's almost nothing you can do about it, Harlequins have open-topped transports with massive move range and can jump over units with all their infantry, same for Dark Eldar, Necrons are unfazed if you don't manage to kill them all in one turn, which takes a lot of concentrated firepower, etc.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Marmatag wrote: Katherine, in ITC you don't automatically go first if you have less drops. Counting a seize roll, it's roughly 60-40 if you finish first. Additionally you don't pick the deployment type or terrain, it's defined at the outsight on the mission printout.
And the deployment - I believe it's called the scouring - where you have access to opposite corners, with a 9" no-man's land in the middle.
I had less drops and went second. Also, I don't play sisters of battle. I didn't know they could do a 25+ inch move on turn 1 to get into flamer range, that's impressive. Your alpha strike is better than mine, that's for sure.
Going first would have helped dramatically.
You're Grey Knights, right?
How about try:
2x Grand Masters, one with Infinity Gate and one with Hammerhand, both with Psilencers
4x Strike Squad with Psilencer
1x Interceptors with Psilencer
1x Interceptors w/o Psilencer
Purge Soul across the the board.
Start with Infinity gate, a strike squad, and the Interceptors on the board. Hide in a house or something. Turn 1, move everything up to 9" from the conscripts using Infinity Gate, deep strike, and the Interceptor's ability, purge soul the Commissar, then dump bullets into them. It's crappy that you don't get Bolt Pistols, too, but you do get 138 S4 AP0 shots, as well as 8 more mortal wounds. Assuming you rolled not-crap for Purge Soul, you just wiped out the Conscripts. Otherwise, with clever target selection, you can probably still get off a charge. Be aware, because you might want to drop in cover if you don't think you can keep a 9" charge after your shooting phase. Take the Manticore salvo, lose maybe 10 guys, then close in and melee them to death with Force Falchions.
The only problem is that it may not work as well as Dominions or Hormagaunts because the IG player actually has the ability to play against it, with a wider conscript perimeter and protecting the Commissar by placing him at the end of a conga-line of conscripts behind the Manticores, at which point you do have to slog your way through. In this case, I might keep the interceptors at the max range they can be, then wait for the opening once the conscripts thin out and use their ability then to push in and keep up the pressure.
It was a tournament, but i can't imagine anyone playing any ruleset other than ITC at this point. Being able to always go first seems unfair, especially when half of the enemy army must be on the table.
I did mention it was ITC, but after the original post asking for feedback. I also didn't mention that there were buildings between the zones, so you can't move in a straight line to get to the guard.
I plan to avoid ITC rules, unless I'm playing tournaments.
The regular deployment scheme actually is designed to balance armies that are trying to go for a maximum-power alpha-strike. It does a fairly good job of it too, until two armies with the same idea come up upon one another.
One major balancing factor of Guard alpha-strike lists is the fact that they almost always have to go second, which gives the enemy a turn to react to it. Armies like the Sisters and Grey Knights, who are also armies that can do a powerful alpha-strike, but not as powerful as the rain of fire the Guard brings, get fewer drops than the Guard and get to do their before the Guard does.
Armies that have less firepower and more toughness get to go first more often than those like guard who have lots of killy, fragile units.
So, I am definitely adding more power armored GK into my army. I will happily admit that bringing paladins is a mistake in virtually any point size below 2,000. I definitely focus on incinerators, and psilencers. They're our best overall weapons - Incinerators because they're actually strength 6 flamers and wound guard on 2s, and psilencers because of volume of fire, and the ability to kill 2 wound models.
That said, I will also take an NDK. While they're not amazing, what they have is 12 wounds, and a 5++. A guard player must address the NDK, because if it makes it into melee with tanks, it will end people's day, with a strength 12, AP-4, D6 (3 dmg minimum) hammer.
But in reality, there is no 1,000 point GK list that can efficiently kill conscripts and also threaten tanks, while also being a "take all comers" list. My goal with the other list was a "take all comers" list. I actually did well against Necrons, Tau, and Space Marines. Additionally purge soul requires line of sight, as well as having a 12" range, so you'll never hit a commissar, period.
I do agree that going first with less deployments would directly benefit me... And while I would definitely prefer that, since ITC has made the call - even though they didn't have a vote, which I HATE - I'll stick with it until it changes.
Anyway, I still maintain that in its current form, Imperial Guard is way too strong, and conscripts are the reason for that. People mention they'd bring rank-and-file guardsman if conscripts got nerfed - fine - do that - i'm 100% okay with that. It's fluffy and strong. I have no issues with strong. I have issues with stuff that presents 0 counterplay on my part.
Purge Soul will also kill around 6 or 7 conscripts if you can't get the Commissar. I also did get my Commissar zapped by purge soul. He got within 12" had Line of Effect, and zapped him, so it's definitely possible. He had killed off almost all the conscripts, so there weren't enough of them to form a conga line to safety, so I had to move the commissar up to keep the Conscripts in place.
IG are way too strong, but it's Elysians and Scions that are the reason, not Conscripts. Conscripts are guard doing guard things as guard should, well enough to be competitive, especially against Tyranids, Orks, Sisters, etc. Scions are guard doing space marine things better than space marines. And because guard has cheap units, we can put way more things into reserve than Space Marines can.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 20:47:54
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Purge Soul will also kill around 6 or 7 conscripts if you can't get the Commissar. I also did get my Commissar zapped by purge soul. He got within 12" had Line of Effect, and zapped him, so it's definitely possible. He had killed off almost all the conscripts, so there weren't enough of them to form a conga line to safety, so I had to move the commissar up to keep the Conscripts in place.
IG are way too strong, but it's Elysians and Scions that are the reason, not Conscripts. Conscripts are guard doing guard things as guard should, well enough to be competitive, especially against Tyranids, Orks, Sisters, etc. Scions are guard doing space marine things better than space marines. And because guard has cheap units, we can put way more things into reserve than Space Marines can.
The leadership of conscripts for the purpose of purge soul is 9, when they are near a commissar. So, it's 10+D6 vs 9+D6. Orks, for instance, are actually immune to purge soul because of their size. So, with a commissar, unless Draigo has a leadership buff, cannot kill 7 conscripts.
But for the record, I usually take the +1 leadership on Draigo, because purge soul is actually incredibly effective against anything but guard & Orks. I posted a batrep where Draigo killed 7 death company with a purge soul, because their leadership is 7. For the record, I *always* take purge soul on Draigo, or Voldus.
And i do agree that guard do marine things better than marines. This is the glass cannon edition, toughness 3 doesn't matter when most units drop in, shoot, and die, regardless of 3 or 4 toughness, and a 3+ or 4+ or 5+ save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus wrote: We also determined earlier that psychic powers don't count for this conversation because they're effective.
Keep the trolling to a minimum, especially when you're supporting a claim by someone that was made in error.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you're going to look at psychic powers, you'd want to glance at death guard. They have a solid anti-horde power.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 20:54:58
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Purge Soul will also kill around 6 or 7 conscripts if you can't get the Commissar. I also did get my Commissar zapped by purge soul. He got within 12" had Line of Effect, and zapped him, so it's definitely possible. He had killed off almost all the conscripts, so there weren't enough of them to form a conga line to safety, so I had to move the commissar up to keep the Conscripts in place.
IG are way too strong, but it's Elysians and Scions that are the reason, not Conscripts. Conscripts are guard doing guard things as guard should, well enough to be competitive, especially against Tyranids, Orks, Sisters, etc. Scions are guard doing space marine things better than space marines. And because guard has cheap units, we can put way more things into reserve than Space Marines can.
The leadership of conscripts for the purpose of purge soul is 9, when they are near a commissar. So, it's 10+D6 vs 9+D6. Orks, for instance, are actually immune to purge soul because of their size. So, with a commissar, unless Draigo has a leadership buff, cannot kill 7 conscripts.
But for the record, I usually take the +1 leadership on Draigo, because purge soul is actually incredibly effective against anything but guard & Orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus wrote: We also determined earlier that psychic powers don't count for this conversation because they're effective.
Keep the trolling to a minimum, especially when you're supporting a claim by someone that was made in error.
Commissars are leadership 8.
So that's 2-3 on average. Besides the point, which was, that even if you can't reach him, you can still frag them with Space Magic for a few extra wounds while working your way there.
If the hypothetical list I posited kills 8 with smites and 2 with Purge Soul, and then fires their guns in double-tap at them, it kills a total of 52.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:00:29
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Also, to head this off, psychic powers don't compensate, one psychic power per turn isn't compensation.
You posted this after Katherine brought up purge soul. Based on her math i'm assuming she was expecting a base compare of conscript leadership (4) versus the caster (typically 9). But it doesn't work that way, it's nuanced but purge soul compares against the modified value.
Purge Soul will also kill around 6 or 7 conscripts if you can't get the Commissar. I also did get my Commissar zapped by purge soul. He got within 12" had Line of Effect, and zapped him, so it's definitely possible. He had killed off almost all the conscripts, so there weren't enough of them to form a conga line to safety, so I had to move the commissar up to keep the Conscripts in place.
IG are way too strong, but it's Elysians and Scions that are the reason, not Conscripts. Conscripts are guard doing guard things as guard should, well enough to be competitive, especially against Tyranids, Orks, Sisters, etc. Scions are guard doing space marine things better than space marines. And because guard has cheap units, we can put way more things into reserve than Space Marines can.
The leadership of conscripts for the purpose of purge soul is 9, when they are near a commissar. So, it's 10+D6 vs 9+D6. Orks, for instance, are actually immune to purge soul because of their size. So, with a commissar, unless Draigo has a leadership buff, cannot kill 7 conscripts.
But for the record, I usually take the +1 leadership on Draigo, because purge soul is actually incredibly effective against anything but guard & Orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus wrote: We also determined earlier that psychic powers don't count for this conversation because they're effective.
Keep the trolling to a minimum, especially when you're supporting a claim by someone that was made in error.
Commissars are leadership 8.
So that's 2-3 on average. Besides the point, which was, that even if you can't reach him, you can still frag them with Space Magic for a few extra wounds.
Well, if you're rolling a d6, and i'm rolling a d6, it's an expected value of 1, with leadership 9. It's not worth facing a perils for 1 expected wound. Getting a perils can cost me the game. Besides i would rather purge something that is bigger than conscripts, ideally. Or, spend the power using smite. it guarantees a wound.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:00:20
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Also, to head this off, psychic powers don't compensate, one psychic power per turn isn't compensation.
Now read the quote in context, and see I was arguing a single psychic power cannot take the place of dedicated anti character units like snipers, given one scales properly and one doesn't. Which is still true.
You posted this after Katherine brought up purge soul. Based on her math i'm assuming she was expecting a base compare of conscript leadership (4) versus the caster (typically 9). But it doesn't work that way, it's nuanced but purge soul compares against the modified value.
I mean, I was responding to Katherine, but I was referencing something actually said in the thread. There might have been a little snideness involved, but I meant it mostly at the original comment. I suppose that's bad on me, because this is supposed to be the "civil" thread. I'll try to do so less in the future.
Now read the quote in context, and see I was arguing a single psychic power cannot take the place of dedicated anti character units like snipers, given one scales properly and one doesn't. Which is still true.
Yes. One is also generally much more effective than the other too.
You posted this after Katherine brought up purge soul. Based on her math i'm assuming she was expecting a base compare of conscript leadership (4) versus the caster (typically 9). But it doesn't work that way, it's nuanced but purge soul compares against the modified value.
Well, if you're rolling a d6, and i'm rolling a d6, it's an expected value of 1, with leadership 9. It's not worth facing a perils for 1 expected wound. Getting a perils can cost me the game. Besides i would rather purge something that is bigger than conscripts, ideally. Or, spend the power using smite. it guarantees a wound.
Anyway, I wouldn't be afraid of Perils. The Grand Master has 6 wounds or something, and Perils does D3 if it happens at all. Anything that has a 1-in-18 chance of happening isn't something I'd be worried about unless I'm doing it fifty times, and even then D3 Mortal Wounds isn't terrifying if you have more than 3. For comparison, you are 3 times as likely to take 2 times as much damage, which is enough to be catastrophic while D3 isn't, from using a Meltagun to blow a tank up.
I lost 18 Sisters Dominions, 10 with meltaguns, a Penitent Engine, as well as 5 wounds from Celestine and 4 from an Immolator, to two Land Raiders detonating yesterday night. This isn't exactly stopping me from attacking tanks with Meltaguns.
With regards to snipers: GIVE UP. It's more efficient just to shoot them or melee them dead. Most armies can shoot or melee them dead in 1-2 turns. There are only a few than cannot either ignore them or easily remove them, namely Space Marines and their even-more-specialist kin, the Deathwatch and Grey Knights.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:13:33
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
You posted this after Katherine brought up purge soul. Based on her math i'm assuming she was expecting a base compare of conscript leadership (4) versus the caster (typically 9). But it doesn't work that way, it's nuanced but purge soul compares against the modified value.
Well, if you're rolling a d6, and i'm rolling a d6, it's an expected value of 1, with leadership 9. It's not worth facing a perils for 1 expected wound. Getting a perils can cost me the game. Besides i would rather purge something that is bigger than conscripts, ideally. Or, spend the power using smite. it guarantees a wound.
Lets stop insulting each other, yes?
Anyway, I wouldn't be afraid of Perils. The Grand Master has 6 wounds or something, and Perils does D3 if it happens at all. Anything that has a 1-in-18 chance of happening isn't something I'd be worried about unless I'm doing it fifty times, and even then D3 Mortal Wounds isn't terrifying if you have more than 3. For comparison, you are 3 times as likely to take 2 times as much damage from using a Meltagun blowing a tank up.
You're right, I can keep it above board. It's frustrating that I asked for help countering the Guard i'm facing and I get met with a stream of "get goods," and "GK have no counter." This feels a lot like 7th where I am playing an uphill battle against most people I play with, since most people play guard now.
I have no real answer to guard. I don't lose all my games against them, but that's usually because my opponent makes a tactical error, or I roll well on my alpha.
Purge soul is reserved for Guard units carrying meltas, or heavy weapons. In the example I gave you - you're correct - I did throw out purge soul on conscripts. Unfortunately with purge soul, it's a hit or miss kind of thing. In that specific case I rolled poorly and did 0 mortals, but I can appreciate its value, I love the spell, it's fantastic. Just, ironically, not against large blobs.
Playing guard feels a lot like playing against 7th edition Tau or Eldar. You might win some games, but in reality, the odds are heavily stacked against you, and your stuff will get removed with incredible ease.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Anyway, I think conscripts are pretty fair. Tyranids can turn-1 charge en-masse easily, Sisters of Battle can cross the no-man's land for close-range shooting, devastating antiinfantry and antitank shooting on turn one with our entire force, Orks have a fair shot at getting a turn-1 charge with a single unit, and bring a huge amount of very scary infantry than can turn 2 charge at worse, Chaos Marines have Berzerkers who can ride up safely in a transport, and whether you kill the transport or not they're still charging on turn 2 and there's almost nothing you can do about it, Harlequins have open-topped transports with massive move range and can jump over units with all their infantry, same for Dark Eldar, Necrons are unfazed if you don't manage to kill them all in one turn, which takes a lot of concentrated firepower, etc.
IG has absolutely amazing artillery and cheap characters to act as force multipliers, access to morale immunity which is relatively rare, and more. I'm still unclear why that means they get under costed basic infantry superior to anything anyone else gets. You keep saying they are balanced but neither you nor anyone else has supplied any reasoning that hasn't been debunked.
They can be killed by a unit much more expensive? Okay, now see that that same unit kills off any other infantry of comparable cost dramatically easier, meaning that the points being spent to kill conscripts are still not comparable to the points spent to kill any other infantry unit in the game.
Conscripts don't have firepower so they deserve to be super tough? For their cost, they actually have superior firepower to many, and comparable firepower to the few exceptions (and this is without orders I remind you). So no, they are top tier as far as they go, certainly don't deserve absurd toughness due to their firepower.
If they concentrate firepower they aren't doing a good job of screening, which is what they are there for? Okay, except we've shown they are extremely useful when fielded the way most armies field infantry, as objective holders with anti infantry weaponry, better than most. You can use different units of conscripts for both jobs. I mean, arguing conscripts aren't worth taking for this job basically means you think almost every other army is mostly comprised of useless units. Which should tell you something about balance again.
Seriously someone, give me a good reason for them being balanced and I'll listen. But I haven't heard one yet.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: With regards to snipers: GIVE UP. It's more efficient just to shoot them or melee them dead. Most armies can shoot or melee them dead in 1-2 turns.
No it isn't? It literally isn't. If you kill he commissar, you basically inflict double damage to the conscripts from then on. That's generally cheaper than the amount of anti infantry shooting it'd take to double conscript causalities. Particularly given commissar typically double up on units, so removing one is a huge deal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:19:25
You posted this after Katherine brought up purge soul. Based on her math i'm assuming she was expecting a base compare of conscript leadership (4) versus the caster (typically 9). But it doesn't work that way, it's nuanced but purge soul compares against the modified value.
Well, if you're rolling a d6, and i'm rolling a d6, it's an expected value of 1, with leadership 9. It's not worth facing a perils for 1 expected wound. Getting a perils can cost me the game. Besides i would rather purge something that is bigger than conscripts, ideally. Or, spend the power using smite. it guarantees a wound.
Lets stop insulting each other, yes?
Anyway, I wouldn't be afraid of Perils. The Grand Master has 6 wounds or something, and Perils does D3 if it happens at all. Anything that has a 1-in-18 chance of happening isn't something I'd be worried about unless I'm doing it fifty times, and even then D3 Mortal Wounds isn't terrifying if you have more than 3. For comparison, you are 3 times as likely to take 2 times as much damage from using a Meltagun blowing a tank up.
You're right, I can keep it above board. It's frustrating that I asked for help countering the Guard i'm facing and I get met with a stream of "get goods," and "GK have no counter." This feels a lot like 7th where I am playing an uphill battle against most people I play with, since most people play guard now.
I have no real answer to guard. I don't lose all my games against them, but that's usually because my opponent makes a tactical error, or I roll well on my alpha.
Purge soul is reserved for Guard units carrying meltas, or heavy weapons. In the example I gave you - you're correct - I did throw out purge soul on conscripts. Unfortunately with purge soul, it's a hit or miss kind of thing. In that specific case I rolled poorly and did 0 mortals, but I can appreciate its value, I love the spell, it's fantastic. Just, ironically, not against large blobs.
Playing guard feels a lot like playing against 7th edition Tau or Eldar. You might win some games, but in reality, the odds are heavily stacked against you, and your stuff will get removed with incredible ease.
How about Stormraven Gunships and Land Raider Crusaders?
The latter are absolutely brutal. 12 S6 shots hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with an addition 28 bolter shots, and a bonus Multimelta to launch at another tank for good measure, can take a fair chunk out of a conscript squad while being fairly proofed against return fire.
Stormravens are similar, and fly to boot.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
But you can't snipe a commissar unless your opponent is dead from the neck up. You should never be able to see a commissar, ever, or the guard player deserves to lose.
You posted this after Katherine brought up purge soul. Based on her math i'm assuming she was expecting a base compare of conscript leadership (4) versus the caster (typically 9). But it doesn't work that way, it's nuanced but purge soul compares against the modified value.
Well, if you're rolling a d6, and i'm rolling a d6, it's an expected value of 1, with leadership 9. It's not worth facing a perils for 1 expected wound. Getting a perils can cost me the game. Besides i would rather purge something that is bigger than conscripts, ideally. Or, spend the power using smite. it guarantees a wound.
Lets stop insulting each other, yes?
Anyway, I wouldn't be afraid of Perils. The Grand Master has 6 wounds or something, and Perils does D3 if it happens at all. Anything that has a 1-in-18 chance of happening isn't something I'd be worried about unless I'm doing it fifty times, and even then D3 Mortal Wounds isn't terrifying if you have more than 3. For comparison, you are 3 times as likely to take 2 times as much damage from using a Meltagun blowing a tank up.
You're right, I can keep it above board. It's frustrating that I asked for help countering the Guard i'm facing and I get met with a stream of "get goods," and "GK have no counter." This feels a lot like 7th where I am playing an uphill battle against most people I play with, since most people play guard now.
I have no real answer to guard. I don't lose all my games against them, but that's usually because my opponent makes a tactical error, or I roll well on my alpha.
Purge soul is reserved for Guard units carrying meltas, or heavy weapons. In the example I gave you - you're correct - I did throw out purge soul on conscripts. Unfortunately with purge soul, it's a hit or miss kind of thing. In that specific case I rolled poorly and did 0 mortals, but I can appreciate its value, I love the spell, it's fantastic. Just, ironically, not against large blobs.
Playing guard feels a lot like playing against 7th edition Tau or Eldar. You might win some games, but in reality, the odds are heavily stacked against you, and your stuff will get removed with incredible ease.
How about Stormraven Gunships and Land Raider Crusaders?
The latter are absolutely brutal. 12 S6 shots hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with an addition 28 bolter shots, and a bonus Multimelta to launch at another tank for good measure, can take a fair chunk out of a conscript squad while being fairly proofed against return fire.
Stormravens are similar, and fly to boot.
Yes, this is exactly right. I posted earlier in the thread that my best counter as GK is in the Stormraven. There's a reason everyone space marines is spamming Stormravens, they're our best chance at actually fighting guard, and other top tier lists.
Here's my 2000 point list in its current iteration:
Battalion Detachment HQ: Voldus (Knows all 3 powers) Draigo (Purge Soul, Gate of Infinity; Warlord, +1 Leadership)
Heavy Support: Purgation Squad (4x Psilencer, 1x Nemesis Warding Stave - for melee invuln); Gate of Infinity Purgation Squad (4x Incinerator, 1x Nemesis Warding Stave - for melee invuln); Gate of Infinity Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy psycannon, Nemesis Greathammer); Gate of Infinity
With 6 drops i usually get the +1. The extra command points are nice to protect me against perils, since i cast so many powers, and to reroll as much damage & saves as possible while at full strength.
It's not a dedicated anti-guard list, because i do face other things.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:27:58
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
IG has absolutely amazing artillery and cheap characters to act as force multipliers, access to morale immunity which is relatively rare, and more. I'm still unclear why that means they get under costed basic infantry superior to anything anyone else gets. You keep saying they are balanced but neither you nor anyone else has supplied any reasoning that hasn't been debunked.
They can be killed by a unit much more expensive? Okay, now see that that same unit kills off any other infantry of comparable cost dramatically easier, meaning that the points being spent to kill conscripts are still not comparable to the points spent to kill any other infantry unit in the game.
Conscripts don't have firepower so they deserve to be super tough? For their cost, they actually have superior firepower to many, and comparable firepower to the few exceptions (and this is without orders I remind you). So no, they are top tier as far as they go, certainly don't deserve absurd toughness due to their firepower.
If they concentrate firepower they aren't doing a good job of screening, which is what they are there for? Okay, except we've shown they are extremely useful when fielded the way most armies field infantry, as objective holders with anti infantry weaponry, better than most. You can use different units of conscripts for both jobs. I mean, arguing conscripts aren't worth taking for this job basically means you think almost every other army is mostly comprised of useless units. Which should tell you something about balance again.
Seriously someone, give me a good reason for them being balanced and I'll listen. But I haven't heard one yet.
Without them, Tyranids, Orks, Sisters and such would just walk all over us. That's why.
200 points per unit is very fair for being able to actually play the game the way the army works in the fluff, considering that we wouldn't even bother putting things on the table against Tyranids, Chaos, Sisters, etc.
They're also very surmountable. Note that Sisters and Eldar can jump right over them to assault the tanks as if they weren't there with Seraphim and Harlequins, and Hormagaunts, Berzerkers, and Boyz can plow right into them, butcher them, and move on.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: With regards to snipers: GIVE UP. It's more efficient just to shoot them or melee them dead. Most armies can shoot or melee them dead in 1-2 turns.
No it isn't? It literally isn't. If you kill he commissar, you basically inflict double damage to the conscripts from then on. That's generally cheaper than the amount of anti infantry shooting it'd take to double conscript causalities. Particularly given commissar typically double up on units, so removing one is a huge deal.
Considering he's impossible to kill, every point spent on a sniper is, in my opinion, wasted. It would take something like 154 points of Ratlings to kill a Commissar in one turn. With 150 points, I can buy 2.5 squads of Dominions, and kill 15 more of them, approximately 5 fewer than I would have killed through Battleshock if the Commissar died. And, of course, if we bring 150 points of marksmen, they don't have anything left to do once the Commissar is dead, while 150 points of Dominions can keep shooting at other things. And if we bring less than 150 points of marksmen, we might as well not have them because our next round's shooting will kill the conscripts anyway,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:34:19
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
SilverAlien wrote: No they can't. 150 points of SoB (153 technically) can only output 34
141 points of Battle Sisters first use an Act of Faith at the start of the round to put out 24 boltgun shots within 12", and 12 storm bolter shots within 12" (they're rapid fire 2, so 4 shots each at half range, with three storm bolters in the squad). This is 36 boltgun shots. Then, during their shooting phase, they put out another 24 boltgun shots and 12 stormbolter shots. This results in a total of 72 boltgun shots-- exactly what I said they could do in a single turn.
Are you seriously trying to tell a veteran Sisters of Battle player how her army works? You don't know gak. Don't fething try to correct me about my own army when you don't even know gak all about your own.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:33:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Wouldn't you almost always use the acts of faith to get the extra movement? Getting Celestine into melee has to be like priority 1.
I might also start fielding Celestine in my GK list. I spent all this time painting her in 7th, and she's probably hands down my favorite model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:33:42
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Wouldn't you almost always use the acts of faith to get the extra movement? Getting Celestine into melee has to be like priority 1.
I might also start fielding Celestine in my GK list. I spent all this time painting her in 7th, and she's probably hands down my favorite model.
No.
On turn 1, I use it to move units. On turn 2, I use it to make units shoot. On turn 3, I use it to heal Celestine, and the other one to make units shoot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:36:19
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Marmatag wrote: Wouldn't you almost always use the acts of faith to get the extra movement? Getting Celestine into melee has to be like priority 1.
Guard players have repeatedly said it's a waste of orders to apply them to conscripts when you could apply the orders to a unit with superior firepower. But this gets ignored because OH MY FETHING GAWD WHAT DA FETH BARBEQUE, CONSCRIPTS OHPEEEEEEE!
If someone is going to complain about a unit by giving badly thought out mathhammer about the unit in a vacuum, then no one has any right to whine if I respond by giving an example of ANOTHER unit in a vacuum.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:36:27
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Marmatag wrote: Wouldn't you almost always use the acts of faith to get the extra movement? Getting Celestine into melee has to be like priority 1.
Guard players have repeatedly said it's a waste of orders to apply them to conscripts when you could apply the orders to a unit with superior firepower. But this gets ignored because OH MY FETHING GAWD WHAT DA FETH BARBEQUE, CONSCRIPTS OHPEEEEEEE!
If someone is going to complain about a unit by giving badly thought out mathhammer about the unit in a vacuum, then no one has any right to whine if I respond by giving an example of ANOTHER unit in a vacuum.
It can and can't be. About 40%-strength is when it becomes less viable to give the conscripts the Orders over the Guardsmen.
20 men getting 2 bonus shots each for 50 shots, 13 hits.
10 men getting 2 bonus shots each for 20 shots, 10 hits.
Now, for comparison:
20 Conscripts costs 60 points, or 3 PL 10 Guardsmen cost 40 points, or 3 PL 50 Conscripts cost 150 points, or 6 PL
The cost seems to account for the scaling of orders very well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:47:45
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Melissia wrote: Guard players have repeatedly said it's a waste of orders to apply them to conscripts when you could apply the orders to a unit with superior firepower. But this gets ignored because OH MY FETHING GAWD WHAT DA FETH BARBEQUE, CONSCRIPTS OHPEEEEEEE!
Can you give an example of a unit which would benefit more from an order?
Melissia wrote: Guard players have repeatedly said it's a waste of orders to apply them to conscripts when you could apply the orders to a unit with superior firepower. But this gets ignored because OH MY FETHING GAWD WHAT DA FETH BARBEQUE, CONSCRIPTS OHPEEEEEEE!
Can you give an example of a unit which would benefit more from an order?
Mortars.
3d6 Shots, NLoS. Make them re-roll 1's to hit. while the enemy is far away, and since they're S4 they'll wound things a little better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:53:06
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Considering he's impossible to kill, every point spent on a sniper is, in my opinion, wasted. It would take something like 154 points of Ratlings to kill a Commissar in one turn. With 150 points, I can buy 2.5 squads of Dominions, and kill 15 more of them, approximately 5 fewer than I would have killed through Battleshock if the Commissar died. And, of course, if we bring 150 points of marksmen, they don't have anything left to do once the Commissar is dead, while 150 points of Dominions can keep shooting at other things. And if we bring less than 150 points of marksmen, we might as well not have them because our next round's shooting will kill the conscripts anyway,
Umm.... no. 10 ratlings (70 points) will generally kill a normal commissar in a single turn, even if we ignore mortal wounds entirely. 8 ratlings will do it on average with mortal wounds, but just barely, so might as well take a full unit (or two MSU, whatever). I'm not sure why you think it'd take 154 points to do it. Are we talking about a lord commissar? Did commissar's get a buff in the FAQ?
Melissia wrote: 141 points of Battle Sisters first use an Act of Faith at the start of the round to put out 24 boltgun shots within 12", and 12 storm bolter shots within 12" (they're rapid fire 2, so 4 shots each at half range, with three storm bolters in the squad). This is 36 boltgun shots. Then, during their shooting phase, they put out another 24 boltgun shots and 12 stormbolter shots. This results in a total of 72 boltgun shots-- exactly what I said they could do in a single turn.
Are you seriously trying to tell a veteran Sisters of Battle player how her army works? You don't know gak. Don't fething try to correct me about my own army when you don't even know gak all about your own.
Wow, considering you didn't even bother to mention you used an act of faith, pretty important considering we were comparing them to conscripts without orders and acts of faith aren't a guarantee still... Yeah, I assumed you weren't including the once per turn, not entirely reliable boost into the calculation, because it would be extremely unrepresentative of the comparison being made, which was what unit can field infantry (as in, multiple squads of infantry) better than conscripts. .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:51:53
Melissia wrote: Guard players have repeatedly said it's a waste of orders to apply them to conscripts when you could apply the orders to a unit with superior firepower. But this gets ignored because OH MY FETHING GAWD WHAT DA FETH BARBEQUE, CONSCRIPTS OHPEEEEEEE!
Can you give an example of a unit which would benefit more from an order?
Mortars.
Which order specifically? I suppose that the mortars win by default at long range, but assuming that at least a sizable portion of the conscripts are in range it's more valuable to give them Rapid Fire 2 rather than reroll 1 to hit for 3 mortars.
SilverAlien wrote: Wow, considering you didn't even bother to mention you used an act of faith
I didn't have to; they're Sisters of Battle, it's what they do. You even got both the count of shots wrong AND the count of points wrong, too, even without Acts of Faith being taken in to account-- unlike me. Because I actually know what I'm talking about. You should try it some time.
Besides I don't want to listen to you complain about that when you're so often not even taking in to account the cost of units conscripts are being boosted by to begin with with your dishonest arguments.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:57:52
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
~5000 points of IG and DKoK 
