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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 22:00:50
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Man, am I glad I just run Infantry squads so no one will lose their mind at me.
I don't think Conscripts are too powerful (when you look at things like Guilliman or some flyers), but I do think the removal of template weapons and change to armor saves has made them sturdier then maybe they should be.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that some weapons should inflict extra shots/hits on units larger than 20 models. I really like that idea and think it would work great even within the current ruleset.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 22:02:28
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Mortars.
3d6 Shots, NLoS. Make them re-roll 1's to hit. while the enemy is far away, and since they're S4 they'll wound things a little better.
Should I even bother showing that this sin't a better usage of an order, or will I just derisively mocked for using mathhammer? Eh, screw it, doing it anyways.
Mortar's rerolling 1's to hit on some unarmored t3 unit is 4.08 wounds, up from 3.5 wounds without rerolling 1s.
Conscripts of the same cost, which would be 9 conscripts, inflict 3-6 wounds depending on range, up from 1.5-3. Plus, you know, that single order is actually going to be effecting up to 50 conscripts, rather than the 12 I used for comparison.
So... no the order isn't a good comparison, conscripts are a much better target for orders, and kill a lot more infantry for cost once orders become a thing.
Melissia wrote:SilverAlien wrote:Wow, considering you didn't even bother to mention you used an act of faith
I didn't have to; they're Sisters of Battle, it's what they do. You even got both the count of shots wrong AND the count of points wrong, too, even without Acts of Faith being taken in to account-- unlike me. Because I actually know what I'm talking about. You should try it some time.
Besides I don't want to listen to you complain about that when you're so often not even taking in to account the cost of units conscripts are being boosted by to begin with with your dishonest arguments.
To the first point, I had no idea you meant a squad of sisters with a specific loadout you never specified, so i just did plain sisters of battle without upgrades (given that's what many mean when they say x points of y thing). When yhat didn't work, tried dominions cause someone mentioned them earlier and I though maybe that'd be closer, given the huge gap because I also didn't know you were talking about the once per turn act of faith.
Don't start cursing people out and getting angry because you were absurdly unclear.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 22:07:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 22:05:41
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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sossen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:sossen wrote: Melissia wrote:Guard players have repeatedly said it's a waste of orders to apply them to conscripts when you could apply the orders to a unit with superior firepower. But this gets ignored because OH MY FETHING GAWD WHAT DA FETH BARBEQUE, CONSCRIPTS OHPEEEEEEE!
Can you give an example of a unit which would benefit more from an order?
Mortars.
Which order specifically? I suppose that the mortars win by default at long range, but assuming that at least a sizable portion of the conscripts are in range it's more valuable to give them Rapid Fire 2 rather than reroll 1 to hit for 3 mortars.
It take that back. Krak Missiles and Lascannons.
Getting your hits and wounds with those heavy weapons can be critical to crippling and wrecking transports in your opening turn, when Conscripts are at long Range.
Once the enemy is in close range, they're already in battle with your Conscripts, so if you have fewer than 20 Conscripts remaining you would rather order a regular rifle squad. But anyway, as I pointed out, the Conscript's cost accounts for the increased power of FRF-SRF on them:
10 Guardsmen get 9 bonus shots at long range, and 18 bonus shots at close range [stupid sergeants], totalling up to 4.5 or 9 bonus hits, and cost 40 points or 3 PL.
20 Conscripts get 20 bonus shots, or 40 bonus shots, totalling up to 6.5 bonus hits or 13 bonus hits, at cost of 60 points or 3 PL.
50 Conscripts get 50 bonus shots, or 100 bonus shots, totalling up to 16.5 bonus hits or 33 bonus hits, at cost of 150 points or 6 PL.
So for 150% of the cost, you get 150% the capability out of the order. For 375% the cost, you get 366% the effect of the order.
There's not some sort of insane scaling here.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 22:08:03
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 22:13:11
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Been Around the Block
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The only way I am seeing non-IG players having this resolved is buy removing conscripts from the IG codex. This has been a back and fourth, point vs. counter-point exercise in uselessness.
Conscripts didn't change at all in their tactics or usefulness from 7th to 8th ed. They were 3pts per man. They had a hidden commissar or lord commissar that could not be targeted unless it was by snipers. They always only lost 1 man for a failed leadership. They were Leadership 9 or 10 thanks to the commissar so they never failed a order. IG commanders would always run the Platoon Commander with them so the Company Commander could issue the actually useful orders to Platoons/Veterans. They were massive 50 wound tarpits/ walls.
So what did change from 7th to 8th that took them from being just OK in a un-competitive codex to one of the most broken units in the game? They get a armor save against some basic infantry weapons. They/other units can fall out of combat instead of being stuck in combat with them for 4+turns. They lost one attack on the charge and went from normally hitting on a 4+ to a 5+. They can hurt anything on a 6. FRFSRF gives a additional shot at 12 inches. They are not in a platoon.
Lets look at it from the IG players perspective. To them conscripts have not changed but the game changed around them. Ig players where hurt when their tanks went up in points but became less effective (We relied on template weapons to make up for bad BS, can't issue orders from a chimera, loss of shooting one weapon at full BS after moving). IG players lost their combined squads (orders are now only effective on veterans/ conscripts). Veterans lost doctrines and are not a troops choice (Lots of IG players ran veterans).
When you boil it all down it means that IG players will naturally gravitate to conscripts and artillery (which is just as effective and did not get nerfed). If you get rid of the conscripts you remove the overpowered FRFSRF (it becomes basically useless) and tone down the commissar a tiny bit. What does not change? 150 men with massive leadership buffs blocking you from coming close to his artillery.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 22:18:05
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:But anyway, as I pointed out, the Conscript's cost accounts for the increased power of FRF-SRF on them:
10 Guardsmen get 9 bonus shots at long range, and 18 bonus shots at close range [stupid sergeants], totalling up to 4.5 or 9 bonus hits, and cost 40 points or 3 PL.
20 Conscripts get 20 bonus shots, or 40 bonus shots, totalling up to 6.5 bonus hits or 13 bonus hits, at cost of 60 points or 3 PL.
50 Conscripts get 50 bonus shots, or 100 bonus shots, totalling up to 16.5 bonus hits or 33 bonus hits, at cost of 150 points or 6 PL.
So for 150% of the cost, you get 150% the capability out of the order. For 375% the cost, you get 366% the effect of the order.
There's not some sort of insane scaling here.
..... are you being deliberately obtuse or what? The cost break on using orders isn't for the conscripts/guard, it's for the 30 point company commander.
In the former, that 30 point upgrade is getting you 9-18 bonus hits between two units. For 20 person conscripts, the same 30 points gets you 13-26. For units of 50, you have a 33-66 extra lasgun shots, for 30 points.
Now, how many points of conscripts would it take to get an extra 33-66 lasgun shots? 300 points worth. Not the 30 the commander cost. How many points would it take to get the extra 9-18 for two guard squad? 80 if you buy more guardsman, 81 in conscripts.
So the force multiplier of company commander went from contributing a bit under 3 times his cost in lasgun shots to 10 times his cost in lasgun shots. That's what we mean when we say the scaling is insane. Look at the commander as a 30 point upgrade to two squads, not... whatever you were trying to do.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 22:20:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 22:19:02
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Once the enemy is in close range, they're already in battle with your Conscripts, so if you have fewer than 20 Conscripts remaining you would rather order a regular rifle squad. But anyway, as I pointed out, the Conscript's cost accounts for the increased power of FRF-SRF on them:
10 Guardsmen get 9 bonus shots at long range, and 18 bonus shots at close range [stupid sergeants], totalling up to 4.5 or 9 bonus hits, and cost 40 points or 3 PL.
20 Conscripts get 20 bonus shots, or 40 bonus shots, totalling up to 6.5 bonus hits or 13 bonus hits, at cost of 60 points or 3 PL.
50 Conscripts get 50 bonus shots, or 100 bonus shots, totalling up to 16.5 bonus hits or 33 bonus hits, at cost of 150 points or 6 PL.
So for 150% of the cost, you get 150% the capability out of the order. For 375% the cost, you get 366% the effect of the order.
There's not some sort of insane scaling here.
The cost of the unit is irrelevant given that the overhead cost for the order is per unit. 1 order per turn costs 20 pts (or 15 with a company commander). Going by your numbers, the order will either give you 6.5 bonus hits with 20 conscripts or 4.5 bonus hits with guardsmen. Even if it definitely will be better to buff other units in the case where you only have 10 conscripts remaining that is not the typical case. A conscript unit is generally the best target for orders.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 22:24:42
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Howscat wrote:When you boil it all down it means that IG players will naturally gravitate to conscripts and artillery (which is just as effective and did not get nerfed). If you get rid of the conscripts you remove the overpowered FRFSRF (it becomes basically useless) and tone down the commissar a tiny bit. What does not change? 150 men with massive leadership buffs blocking you from coming close to his artillery.
What we want is a wall that, with dedicated anti infantry, can be removed as efficiently as any other infantry unit used for screening.This is not an unreasonable request. Normal guard squads are more balanced given for this than normal conscripts, as are conscripts with some nerfs. It's not that we think guard shouldn't have walls of guys screening, they should just pay a reasonable price for them, and they shouldn't be absurdly difficult for cost to remove compared to every other infantry unit. Currently, they are not balanced with the rest of the game or anti infantry options in general.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 22:25:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:01:35
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Been Around the Block
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SilverAlien wrote: Howscat wrote:When you boil it all down it means that IG players will naturally gravitate to conscripts and artillery (which is just as effective and did not get nerfed). If you get rid of the conscripts you remove the overpowered FRFSRF (it becomes basically useless) and tone down the commissar a tiny bit. What does not change? 150 men with massive leadership buffs blocking you from coming close to his artillery.
What we want is a wall that, with dedicated anti infantry, can be removed as efficiently as any other infantry unit used for screening.This is not an unreasonable request. Normal guard squads are more balanced given for this than normal conscripts, as are conscripts with some nerfs. It's not that we think guard shouldn't have walls of guys screening, they should just pay a reasonable price for them, and they shouldn't be absurdly difficult for cost to remove compared to every other infantry unit. Currently, they are not balanced with the rest of the game or anti infantry options in general.
What other army requires a screening unit? Orks and tyranids just want to close the distance and catch you in close combat. Space marines all where heavy armor with good shooting and close combat. The flavors of space elves use speed and firepower to defeat the enemy. Tau use fast and tough battle suits to shoot you while being buffed from their smaller characters. Chaos has its god buffs and pshycic shinnanagins. The Guard have their men to screen for their tanks/artillery.
What I am saying that even if you went full on and removed conscript IG players will just switch to using regular guardsmen. No matter what you do you will still have to chew threw 150 men to get to the artillery that is killin your dudez. Even worse, You will fight through 150 men to be faced with 150 more men.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:05:06
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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And that's okay to have a screening unit. Just pay the appropriate price for them, then. I'm not suggesting to gut the unit entry, but Conscripts and regular Guardsmen need to be bumped up a point each. That's more than fair since Orders are automatic and the characters are blasted cheap.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:12:09
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Howscat wrote:
What other army requires a screening unit? Orks and tyranids just want to close the distance and catch you in close combat. Space marines all where heavy armor with good shooting and close combat. The flavors of space elves use speed and firepower to defeat the enemy. Tau use fast and tough battle suits to shoot you while being buffed from their smaller characters. Chaos has its god buffs and pshycic shinnanagins. The Guard have their men to screen for their tanks/artillery.
What I am saying that even if you went full on and removed conscript IG players will just switch to using regular guardsmen. No matter what you do you will still have to chew threw 150 men to get to the artillery that is killin your dudez. Even worse, You will fight through 150 men to be faced with 150 more men.
Almost every shooty army that isn't pure flyers wants screening units. Marines in particular are really vulnerable to their stuff getting tied up in CC because they have big trouble screening effectively without bringing in Guard. Eldar can either screen or go 100% mechanized, and basically every Eldar list gets better if you add in a unit or two of Razorwings. Tau screen with gun drones and Kroot and Fire Warriors. Chaos has Horrors, and almost every Chaos list gets better if you add some, even the ones that don't shoot much.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 23:12:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:13:45
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Conscripts are priced appropriately. Why should they pay the EXACT same price as guardsmen for less stats?
If any adjustment is to be made here, it's that they shouldn't benefit as strongly from commissars as normal guardsmen. But that's it. The people screaming and crying about how they're the most OP unit in the game right now have failed to actually make a good case as to why they are.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:15:41
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Been Around the Block
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What if every army got their snipers boosted/ given access to snipers?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:19:42
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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A couple things to note about standard guardsmen:
First, the most likely reason they got that point reduction (from 5 to 4) is the loss of combined squads, which does reduce their efficiency because they can no longer create a battery of 5 lascannons wrapped in 40 additional wounds.
Second, the reason Cultists cost 5 points still is most likely the fact that they can take both a mark of Chaos and a Legion keyword. Now, we've seen Chapter Tactics for the Space Marines. Chaos is likely to get something similar for Favors and Legion special rules. Cultists can get both, so when the Chaos codex drops, there's a good chance cultists will be able to pick up two potentially very powerful special rules for "free" (in quotes because they're technically already paying for it).
Granted, technically that's also just another way for GW to screw things up because some marks and some legions will probably be stronger than others.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:21:50
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Oh look someone going for a quick spin in the hyperbolic chamber again while running off in bad faith with a line someone said. No one said that Melissa.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:29:45
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Honestly I don't really see why Commissars are supposed to be the big problem here. When I play infantry-heavy Guard lists I often end up with like 14 CP and I struggle to find things to spend them on. I don't use Conscripts -- I think 60 point lascannon infantry squads are plenty durable and they force the enemy to come to me -- but if I did I don't know that Commissars would be mandatory. They're only 30 points so I'll take one, sure, but it doesn't seem like a big problem if they get significantly nerfed or if people start bringing tons of snipers. If my opponent kills 10 Conscripts I'll just pay 2 CP and ignore morale that turn. I can keep that up for a few turns, and that's all I need the Conscripts for. The ability to threaten FRFSRF if the enemy doesn't thin the herd and their use as screeners is what makes Conscripts appealing. Fearlessness is just a nice bonus that's probably worth 30 points but not much more. Commissars are a much bigger deal for regular infantry where, without them, the enemy could take a bunch of squads down low enough that the heavy weapon would be in danger from morale. Commissars mean that the enemy has a lot of reason to wipe out all but 1 model in each squad, and this often leads to overkill, wasted shots, and fewer models lost to morale (because there are no models to lose).
Better snipers mean that I'm more likely to bring Conscripts over infantry, because I can hide the officer and maybe Commissar more effectively while still buffing a ton of dudes.
Edit: Granted, maybe I won't be as willing to throw CP away after the Marine codex comes out if I can ally in a single Marine unit and then use orbital bombardments every turn.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 23:33:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:32:41
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Quickjager wrote:Oh look someone going for a quick spin in the hyperbolic chamber again while running off in bad faith with a line someone said. No one said that Melissa.
She's been...off in this thread.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:33:17
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Howscat wrote:What if every army got their snipers boosted/ given access to snipers?
IDK. Marine scout snipers can put on average two or three wounds on a commissar in a single turn for 75 pts, and most marine armies get access to them. Hell, I know my army's going to have 14 sniper rifles in it (the 15th is going to be an ML to help with anti-tank, with five that have basic boltguns as objective-sitters)-- and I don't even necessarily have the army kitted out for sniping for htat purpose. 90 points if you want to give them camo cloaks. Scout Snipers are, IMO, almost perfectly priced.
Eldar rangers probably pay far too much for the ability to deep strike and the ability to get a bonus cover save-- they cost more than scout snipers, but aren't as tough. But they do get the ability to move and fire, unlike scouts, to make up for it?
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:34:20
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ross-128 wrote:A couple things to note about standard guardsmen:
First, the most likely reason they got that point reduction (from 5 to 4) is the loss of combined squads, which does reduce their efficiency because they can no longer create a battery of 5 lascannons wrapped in 40 additional wounds.
Second, the reason Cultists cost 5 points still is most likely the fact that they can take both a mark of Chaos and a Legion keyword. Now, we've seen Chapter Tactics for the Space Marines. Chaos is likely to get something similar for Favors and Legion special rules. Cultists can get both, so when the Chaos codex drops, there's a good chance cultists will be able to pick up two potentially very powerful special rules for "free" (in quotes because they're technically already paying for it).
Granted, technically that's also just another way for GW to screw things up because some marks and some legions will probably be stronger than others.
Marks don't do anything right now, and Legion keyword (which IS going to prevent different Legions from taking Marks) is no different than getting a Regiment keyword. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote: Howscat wrote:What if every army got their snipers boosted/ given access to snipers?
IDK. Marine scout snipers can put on average two or three wounds on a commissar in a single turn for 75 pts, and most marine armies get access to them. Hell, I know my army's going to have 14 sniper rifles in it (the 15th is going to be an ML to help with anti-tank, with five that have basic boltguns as objective-sitters)-- and I don't even necessarily have the army kitted out for sniping for htat purpose. 90 points if you want to give them camo cloaks. Scout Snipers are, IMO, almost perfectly priced.
Eldar rangers probably pay far too much for the ability to deep strike and the ability to get a bonus cover save-- they cost more than scout snipers, but aren't as tough. But they do get the ability to move and fire, unlike scouts, to make up for it?
Rangers are about 1 or 2 points overpriced.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 23:35:07
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:45:29
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Actually, they have. Here's an example:
SilverAlien wrote:if conscripts cost four points, well he'd have a point. Because then the cost would actually be reasonable. But not right now.
And I'm not the only one objecting to it either.
Arandmoor wrote:Yeah. 4 point conscripts would solve the "conscript problem" because 4 points is too much per model when compared to normal guard infantry to justify taking them at all!
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:46:54
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Rookie Pilot
Lotusland
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vipoid wrote:
The fact that you actually asked that question is hilarious beyond belief. Do you play 40k via graph paper or something?
I'm glad you find it hilarious, as that was my goal. My post was in support of yours, though using what I intended to be the understated sarcasm that is the way of my people Automatically Appended Next Post: sossen wrote:Having looked at the ETC lists there appear to be at least 10 AM players bringing at least 100 conscripts. One guy is bringing 400. There are almost no AM lists without any conscripts, and the majority bring 100+. Stormraven spam is the game of the day though.
Let's see how they fare then
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 23:49:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:54:11
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Howscat wrote:What other army requires a screening unit? Orks and tyranids just want to close the distance and catch you in close combat. Space marines all where heavy armor with good shooting and close combat. The flavors of space elves use speed and firepower to defeat the enemy. Tau use fast and tough battle suits to shoot you while being buffed from their smaller characters. Chaos has its god buffs and pshycic shinnanagins. The Guard have their men to screen for their tanks/artillery.
What I am saying that even if you went full on and removed conscript IG players will just switch to using regular guardsmen. No matter what you do you will still have to chew threw 150 men to get to the artillery that is killin your dudez. Even worse, You will fight through 150 men to be faced with 150 more men.
So you actually and honestly believe only guard wants to screens its tanks and big guns? You don't think any other army routinely fields large numbers of tanks or immobile artillery?
Ork artillery is a main stay of the army, as it is for renegades and heretics. Tau want to screen broadsides, riptides, and stormsurges. Plenty of people run tank heavy space marine varieties. Even chaos marines have a few, though most of artillery also has close combat weapons. Even eldar can benefit from being able to screen their big stuff, even if it is more mobile generally.
Melissia wrote:Conscripts are priced appropriately. Why should they pay the EXACT same price as guardsmen for less stats?
If any adjustment is to be made here, it's that they shouldn't benefit as strongly from commissars as normal guardsmen. But that's it. The people screaming and crying about how they're the most OP unit in the game right now have failed to actually make a good case as to why they are.
You mean beyond pointing out that no other infantry unit is as tough per point, and the few that come close have much worse firepower, particularly when we factor in how cheaply they can literally double it, a 30 point upgrade to double two 50 person conscript units damage output is excellently priced?
Conscripts have no unit of the same cost that works anywhere near as well. Units that cost 1-2 points more than they do generally have worse stats.
As for normal guard squads, a question. Is it an advantage worth paying for to be taken in larger squad sizes? Is having a max unit size of 30 an advantage over a max unit size of 10?
If no, then there is no reason a normal guardsman should cost as much as a termagaunt and less than a cultist, given they are superior to both units. In which case, conscripts at 4, infantry at 5.
If yes, large unit size can be an advantage due to how auras and buffs works, then conscripts can be priced the same as normal guard troops as the large unit size is the advantage. In that case, both at 4.
I lean towards the latter myself, but I'd be glad to hear others.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/19 23:59:15
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ross-128 wrote:A couple things to note about standard guardsmen:
First, the most likely reason they got that point reduction (from 5 to 4) is the loss of combined squads, which does reduce their efficiency because they can no longer create a battery of 5 lascannons wrapped in 40 additional wounds.
Second, the reason Cultists cost 5 points still is most likely the fact that they can take both a mark of Chaos and a Legion keyword. Now, we've seen Chapter Tactics for the Space Marines. Chaos is likely to get something similar for Favors and Legion special rules. Cultists can get both, so when the Chaos codex drops, there's a good chance cultists will be able to pick up two potentially very powerful special rules for "free" (in quotes because they're technically already paying for it).
Granted, technically that's also just another way for GW to screw things up because some marks and some legions will probably be stronger than others.
Marks don't do anything right now, and Legion keyword (which IS going to prevent different Legions from taking Marks) is no different than getting a Regiment keyword.
Well, the same is true of the Chapter keyword... until the Space Marine codex drops. Then your Chapter keyword might translate into shooting attacks getting -1 to hit you, a 6+ FNP, the ability to ignore cover, etc. Granted, one of those things is not like the others.
If cultists can pick up something like that, that would explain a lot wouldn't it?
Edit:
Also, the value of large squad sizes depends on what those squads are made of. I pointed out the ability to wrap 5 heavy weapons in wounds for a reason: Conscripts can't do that, because they can't take heavy weapons. Order efficiency is a factor, but with the Conscripts' much lower statline and limited weapon options, it's not enough by itself to justify costing as much as Guardsmen.
If I could take up to 5 heavy weapon teams in a Conscript squad and those heavy weapon teams had BS4+, then I'd consider paying 4 points per model for them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/20 00:06:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:02:12
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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SilverAlien wrote:You mean beyond pointing out that no other infantry unit is as tough per point
And? That's the entire reason you get them. THey don't really serve any other purpose. Hell, I know you're terrible at both math AND remembering t hings, but I already proved in a different thread that equivalent points of tactical marines actually outpace conscripts in damaging MEQ, are you going to start spamming endlessly about how tacticals are OH SO DAMN OVERPOWERED in 50 different threads just like you did with conscripts? Thing is, conscripts do one thing and only one thing well. And that's take damage. That's it. Hell, 100 conscripts each being given an order to FRFSRF can barely even, on average, take down a single tactical squad in cover. And they cost five and a half times more than said tacticals. And I'm supposed to be intimidated by this? I'd quote the eternal sage known as Snoop Dogg, but I'm pretty sure the mods wouldn't like it. That said, I'm not going to cower at such pitiful firepower. I can think of plenty of other things that can kill a marine squad in cover for 360 points. And if you can't, that's because you're not very good at this game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/20 00:03:06
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:02:44
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ross-128 wrote:Well, the same is true of the Chapter keyword... until the Space Marine codex drops. Then your Chapter keyword might translate into shooting attacks getting -1 to hit you, a 6+ FNP, the ability to ignore cover, etc. Granted, one of those things is not like the others.
If cultists can pick up something like that, that would explain a lot wouldn't it?
Except conscripts will get that as well? Unless conscripts and guard infantry don't benefit from the (confirmed) regimental tactics thing that will come. I mean, they could've costed one including it and one ignoring it but that'd still be a balance issue in and of itself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:07:11
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Melissia wrote:
Actually, they have. Here's an example:
SilverAlien wrote:if conscripts cost four points, well he'd have a point. Because then the cost would actually be reasonable. But not right now.
And I'm not the only one objecting to it either.
Arandmoor wrote:Yeah. 4 point conscripts would solve the "conscript problem" because 4 points is too much per model when compared to normal guard infantry to justify taking them at all!
I just went through his whole first 3 pages of his post history, where is that from. Nothing is like it, because in every mention of 4ppm he is saying guardsmen themselves should be 5ppm OR he is saying conscripts for 3ppm get better Stat efficency than 4ppm.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:08:17
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Melissia wrote:SilverAlien wrote:You mean beyond pointing out that no other infantry unit is as tough per point
And? That's the entire reason you get them. THey don't really serve any other purpose.
Hell, I know you're terrible at both math AND remembering t hings, but I already proved in a different thread that equivalent points of tactical marines actually outpace conscripts in damaging MEQ, are you going to start spamming endlessly about how tacticals are OH SO DAMN OVERPOWERED in 50 different threads just like you did with conscripts?
Thing is, conscripts do one thing and only one thing well. And that's take damage. That's it. Hell, 100 conscripts each being given an order to FRFSRF can barely even, on average, take down a single tactical squad in cover. And they cost five and a half times more than said tacticals.
And I'm supposed to be intimidated by this? To quote the eternal sage known as Snoop Dogg, bitch, please. I'm not going to cower at such pitiful firepower. I can think of plenty of other things that can kill a marine squad in cover for 360 points.
I've yet to have any math wrong that anyone has pointed out, unless again you count me not being able to read your mind to determine unit composition a math error...
Would you also like to share the unit composition you used? Because barebones tacticals won't beat barebone conscripts, and I'm curious what 170 point build you have that outdamages them and their platoon commander, once we start looking at upgrades, plasma of some sort I assume?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/20 00:09:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:08:38
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Wait that quote was in context of his centurion post wasn't it. That is so out of context.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:15:22
Subject: Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Quickjager wrote:Wait that quote was in context of his centurion post wasn't it. That is so out of context.
Actually I have said that, with my logic being as follows:
Termagaunts (or renegades and heretic infantry) are 4 points, and conscripts outperform termagaunts overall. At 4 points the two would be better balanced, with conscripts still slightly better overall.
We then notice normal guardsman at even better than termagaunts at 4 points, and superior to cultists despite costing 4 compared to 5. At 5 points, guardsman would still be better than cultists.
However, someone made the point that being able to be taken in a larger unit size made those units more valuable, due to how auras and buffs worked. I conceded this was a valid point, and it could make sense that termagaunts/cultists pay extra for this ability, in which case conscripts costing the same as normal guardsmen would also make sense.
Apparently, this has been met with a great deal of anger.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/20 00:16:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:30:51
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ross-128 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ross-128 wrote:A couple things to note about standard guardsmen:
First, the most likely reason they got that point reduction (from 5 to 4) is the loss of combined squads, which does reduce their efficiency because they can no longer create a battery of 5 lascannons wrapped in 40 additional wounds.
Second, the reason Cultists cost 5 points still is most likely the fact that they can take both a mark of Chaos and a Legion keyword. Now, we've seen Chapter Tactics for the Space Marines. Chaos is likely to get something similar for Favors and Legion special rules. Cultists can get both, so when the Chaos codex drops, there's a good chance cultists will be able to pick up two potentially very powerful special rules for "free" (in quotes because they're technically already paying for it).
Granted, technically that's also just another way for GW to screw things up because some marks and some legions will probably be stronger than others.
Marks don't do anything right now, and Legion keyword (which IS going to prevent different Legions from taking Marks) is no different than getting a Regiment keyword.
Well, the same is true of the Chapter keyword... until the Space Marine codex drops. Then your Chapter keyword might translate into shooting attacks getting -1 to hit you, a 6+ FNP, the ability to ignore cover, etc. Granted, one of those things is not like the others.
If cultists can pick up something like that, that would explain a lot wouldn't it?
Edit:
Also, the value of large squad sizes depends on what those squads are made of. I pointed out the ability to wrap 5 heavy weapons in wounds for a reason: Conscripts can't do that, because they can't take heavy weapons. Order efficiency is a factor, but with the Conscripts' much lower statline and limited weapon options, it's not enough by itself to justify costing as much as Guardsmen.
If I could take up to 5 heavy weapon teams in a Conscript squad and those heavy weapon teams had BS4+, then I'd consider paying 4 points per model for them.
Well Cultists probably will get the Legion keyword but most likely no bonuses from it except in specific circumstances (Alpha Legion). I kinda see that happening because there's no reason to give them Disgustingly Resilient when we have Pox Walkers.
You're right though we don't know yet.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/20 00:31:25
Subject: Re:Civil Conscript Thread <--- Here!
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Been Around the Block
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Let me put it this way: Any army that can spam out large numbers of cheap infantry will always be hard to kill. If your army is struggling to kill 150 properly buffed conscripts, your army will still struggle to kill 150 well equipped and buffed guardsman. They will also struggle to kill mass small tyrinid bug spam, cultist spam, and ork boys spam. All of these units are capable of screening and receiving massive buffs.
Don't worry. I am sure that Conscripts, Manticors, and Scion plasma will be nerfed (I am planing on it). However, that does not change the fact that in 8th edition almost everyone's basic infantry unit got cheaper while everything else got more expensive. If I were you I would start taking more infantry and anti infantry weapons with less anti tank/monster.
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