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SilverAlien wrote:
Would you also like to share the unit composition you used? Because barebones tacticals won't, and I'm curious what 170 point build you have that outdamages them, plasma of some I assume?

The question I was put up to was 2 squads of 50 conscripts each supported by a command squad and commissar, thus it was 361 points. This is a valid question, because a command squad can give two orders out a turn, and each conscript squad can only receive two orders, and the commissar would be unlikely to be able to cover more than two conscript squads that have been deployed in a meaningful way.

100 conscripts at 24" range with FRFSRF = 200 shots against a tactical squad in cover.
200 shots at 5+ hit about 66 times (5+ to-hit). Of these 66 hits, 22 are wounds (5+ to-wound). Of these wounds, a grand total of around 3.7 are unsaved against the basic tactical marine statline when tacticals are in cover (2+ save).

Compare this to 20 marines at 24" range firing 12 boltguns, 4 heavy bolters, 4 plasmaguns (edit: just so we're clear, these are obtained via combiplasma).
-- 12 boltgun shots. Hits on 3+, 8 hit. Wounds on 3+, 4 wound. Saves on 2+, 0.67 unsaved.
-- 12 hb shots. Hits on 3+, 8 hits. Wounds on 3+, 5.33 wound. Saves on 3+, 1.77 unsaved.
-- 4 plasma shots. Hits on 3+, 2.67 hit. Wounds on 3+, 1.77 wound. Saves on 5+, 1.19 unsaved.
-- Total of 3.67 unsaved wounds per turn, without using plasma overcharge, against tacticals in cover.

I am not including chapter tactics or character in this calculation for the tacticals either on offense or on defense, even though I AM including Orders. The marine list could actually be optimized further I imagine, but I made this list assuming no overcharge on plasma in order to reduce the amount of math needed.


edit to fix math, I remembered something wrong on a post of mine.

 Melissia wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Would you also like to share the unit composition you used? Because barebones tacticals won't, and I'm curious what 170 point build you have that outdamages them, plasma of some I assume?

The question I was put up to was 2 squads of 50 conscripts each supported by a command squad and commissar, thus it was 361 points. This is a valid question, because a command squad can give two orders out a turn, and each conscript squad can only receive two orders, and the commissar would be unlikely to be able to cover more than two conscript squads that have been deployed in a meaningful way.

100 conscripts at 24" range with FRFSRF = 200 shots against a tactical squad in cover.
200 shots at 5+ hit about 66 times (5+ to-hit). Of these 66 hits, 22 are wounds (5+ to-wound). Of these wounds, a grand total of around 3.7 are unsaved against the basic tactical marine statline when tacticals are in cover (2+ save).

Compare this to 20 marines at 24" range firing 12 boltguns, 4 heavy bolters, 4 plasmaguns (edit: just so we're clear, these are obtained via combiplasma).
-- 12 boltgun shots. Hits on 3+, 8 hit. Wounds on 3+, 4 wound. Saves on 2+, 0.67 unsaved.
-- 12 hb shots. Hits on 3+, 8 hits. Wounds on 3+, 5.33 wound. Saves on 3+, 1.77 unsaved.
-- 4 plasma shots. Hits on 3+, 2.67 hit. Wounds on 3+, 1.77 wound. Saves on 5+, 1.19 unsaved.
-- Total of 3.67 unsaved wounds per turn, without using plasma overcharge, against tacticals in cover.

I am not including chapter tactics or character in this calculation for the tacticals either on offense or on defense, even though I AM including Orders. The marine list could actually be optimized further I imagine, but I made this list assuming no overcharge on plasma in order to reduce the amount of math needed.

edit to fix math, I remembered something wrong on a post of mine.

Okay, first off... being able to match tacticals offensively yet take way more punishment to kill isn't exactly proving balance? In fact, it's rather proving the point that there is something wrong. Those 20 marines will take a lot less time to die than 100 conscripts.

Also, since you did just yell at me for "dishonest" comparisons, I feel pretty in my rights to point out some issues:
-This doesn't apply to MEQ out of cover, as the cover disadvantages the conscripts more
-This only works outside rapid fire, as the big contributor to the space marines is the heavy bolter, rather than the other RF

Then the practical real world issues like wouldn't the HB be snap firing, but it also has longer range so would get extra shots before hand, but were they footslogging, because if so they were probably advancing, but if not would that mean the conscripts get in lasgun range before they get in bolter/plasma range etc. I'm counting these collectively as a wash, but did want to acknowledge them in case I get accused of dishonesty for not thinking of them.

Again, though, the main point is most units choose between firepower and toughness, conscripts seem to excel at both.

Actually, tacticals in cover take way more punishment than conscripts point per point. You're the one making conscripts out to be some unbeatable broken unit that needs to be nerfed to hell, not me. 360 points to just barely kill half a 5-man tactical squad in one turn? Okay, am I supposed to be impressed? Please, that's not even remotely impressive.

Tacticals get 2+ in cover, and most anti-infantry weapons don't have an AP value. A lot of anti-infantry weapons are S3, in fact, outside of space marine weapons where S3 is rare. If I had those same lasguns against T3 4+ save (guardsmen in cover, eldar or tau out of cover) they'd have done WAY more damage, and yet still not unsurmountable. 200 shots, 66 hits, 33 wounds, 16.5 unsaved-- yikes! And yet, it's really not all that hard for ANY army to do 16-17 wounds to a T3 unit with a 4+ save given 360 points to play with. Orks can do more than that with half the price. Eldar laugh at the idea of only doing that many wounds. Marines easily have options for that. Tyranids could do that in their sleep.

Even Guard have better options for doing that many wounds for 360 points.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, tacticals in cover take way more punishment than conscripts point per point.

But nobody ever seems to put them in cover even though cover is a natural fit.

Because cover in 8th is something you can't constantly gain access to, unlike last edition? Currently cover is nice, but you'll have to leave it for a variety of reasons so it can't really be relied upon for most units.

It is the first compelling argument I've heard in favor of all the other light horde infantry (save orks) being overpriced with conscripts the balanced ones however.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, tacticals in cover take way more punishment than conscripts point per point.

But nobody ever seems to put them in cover even though cover is a natural fit.

Because cover in 8th is something you can't constantly gain access to, unlike last edition?

Actually, for a five man squad, it should be trivial to get cover. Five man squads can easily fit in almost any area terrain. If you're not using cover on your boards, you're playing wrong and you have no excuse complaining about it.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, for a five man squad, it should be trivial to get cover. Five man squads can easily fit in almost any area terrain. If you're not using cover on your boards, you're playing wrong and you have no excuse complaining about it.

I meant more in the sense of: infantry needs to move to do their job, and may need to be in a place terrain isn't. Which should also be a thing on most boards, at least from what I've seen.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, for a five man squad, it should be trivial to get cover. Five man squads can easily fit in almost any area terrain. If you're not using cover on your boards, you're playing wrong and you have no excuse complaining about it.

I meant more in the sense of: infantry needs to move to do their job, and may need to be in a place terrain isn't. Which should also be a thing on most boards, at least from what I've seen.

And? That's always a conundrum for marines. The best solution is to charge conscript squads with assault marines while you let your tacticals move up.

Again, like I mentioned above, depending on your list it can be utterly trivial for other armies to do as many wounds as conscripts do for the points it takes to do those wounds-- and quite a few have ways to do far more than that in one turn.

And that's without getting in to the upcoming chapter tactics boosts. Oh man, imagine those calculations against raven guard! Ha. Against Raven Guard in cover, the 100 conscripts with orders are lucky to kill more than a single tactical marine in cover each turn! And Imperial Fists would also do more damage than the conscripts each turn as well (in fact, on average they'd wipe out a 5-man tactical squad every turn with 5.47 wounds per turn against marines in cover), even though people say IF's CT sucks.

Let's face it. Conscripts are not the end-all, be-all of imperial guard tactics. They're not broke as feth. Hell, they're not even in the top five things I'd worry about a guard player bringing. They're a blob that can take a while to kill. Whoopty freakin' do. And they don't even give cover to the vehicles behind them, meaning the ONLY thing they really stop you from doing is immediately assaulting the imperial guard vehicles behind them. And even for that, they're at most a speed bump, because if you really want to get through a conscript squad, you'll do so. It might take a few turns, but that's why it's a speed bump.

Basically, you're just mad that it takes actual effort to wipe out a 150 point squad whose entire purpose is to be difficult to wipe out. Of course it takes effort. It damn well should! FFS I even agree that they should take more damage from commissars than normal (but ONLY conscripts, not guardsmen). But this should at most be 1d6 mortal wounds, which is basically decimation for a conscript squad.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, tacticals in cover take way more punishment than conscripts point per point.

But nobody ever seems to put them in cover even though cover is a natural fit.

Because cover in 8th is something you can't constantly gain access to, unlike last edition? Currently cover is nice, but you'll have to leave it for a variety of reasons so it can't really be relied upon for most units.

It is the first compelling argument I've heard in favor of all the other light horde infantry (save orks) being overpriced with conscripts the balanced ones however.

GW recommends 2 pieces of terrain for every 2 square feet. Perhaps they should clarify the footprint, but most of the terrain I and my friends use is generally 1 square foot in size. That means half the board is terrain of some sort, although that includes hills as well as ruined buildings.

So if you're following that model, the only person who should have having trouble getting his people into cover in a normal sized game is the horde player. If you're running a platoon sized force like most elite armies do (aprox 40 infantry), you ought to be in cover most of the time. There's going to be times you're not in cover sure, but that's what tactics are for.

I look at battle reports sometimes and I am amazed at the shooting galleries people like to play in. I generally play shooty armies, but I still want an interesting board to play on!

edit: Additionally I don't see why everyone assumes all 50 or 100 or whatever conscripts are going to be in range most of the time.

Again, I still think their is a notable point imbalance between them and many equivalent units, but I've said that a few times over. I will concede it is still possible the problem is every other light blob used as canon fodder being overpriced, and that cover actually balances their cost against marines and the like a bit more, but even that logic creates new issues I kinda wanna think through for a bit.

As for chapter tactics, I mean, guard will get regiments tactics as well. Depending on how CT are handled, that wait may be painful, but that one is a known temporary issue.

SilverAlien wrote:
Again, I still think their is a notable point imbalance between them and many equivalent units, but I've said that a few times over. I will concede it is still possible the problem is every other light blob used as canon fodder being overpriced, and that cover actually balances their cost against marines and the like a bit more, but even that logic creates new issues I kinda wanna think through for a bit.

As for chapter tactics, I mean, guard will get regiments tactics as well. Depending on how CT are handled, that wait may be painful, but that one is a known temporary issue.

Hah! "Temporary issue." Ask the SoB or DE what GW's "Temporary" can be like. Bretonians waited until the planet exploded and still didn't get a codex!

Okay, let's go here:

Space Marine at Rapid Fire: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, .66 wounds, .22 damage
Space Marine at Long Range: 1 shot, .66 hits, .33 wounds, .11 damage
Space Marine in Melee: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, .66 wounds, .22 damage

Buffed Guardsman at Rapid Fire: 4 shots, 2 hits, .66 wounds, .22 damage
Buffed Guardsman at Long Range: 2 shots, 1 hit, .33 wounds, .11 damage
Buffed Guardsman in Melee: 2 shots, 1 hit, .33 wounds, ,11 damage

Guardsman at Rapid Fire: 2 shots, 1 hit, .33 wounds, ,11 damage
Guardsman at Long Range: 1 shots, .5 hit, .16 wounds, ,05 damage
Guardsman in Melee: 1 shots, .5 hit, .16 wounds, ,05 damage

Buffed Conscript at Rapid Fire: 4 shots, 1.33 hits, .44 wounds, .15 damage
Buffed Conscript at Long Range: 2 shots, .665 hit, .22 wounds, .07 damage
Buffed Conscript in Melee: 2 shots, .665 hit, .22 wounds, .07 damage

Conscript at Rapid Fire: 2 shots, .665 hit, .22 wounds, .07 damage
Conscript at Long Range: 1 shots, .33 hit, .11 wounds, ,03 damage
Conscript in Melee:1 shots, .33 hit, .11 wounds, ,03 damage


A Conscript with a Commissar is 3.6 points.
A Conscript with a Commissar and an Order is 4 points.

We'll consider the Commissar essential, because, without him, their resiliency is effectively halved.

3 Conscripts without Orders [11 points] are actually worse than a Space Marine, 95% at close range, 82% at long range, 41% in melee, and 100% as resilient. Conscripts clearly aren't the problem here.

3 Conscripts with Orders [12 points], however, are somewhat better than a marine, 204% at close range, 164% at long range, 82% in melee, and 100% as resilient.

In both cases, without commissar support, they become incredibly bad, and aren't worth 3 points, with or without orders.

 argonak wrote:
Hah! "Temporary issue." Ask the SoB or DE what GW's "Temporary" can be like. Bretonians waited until the planet exploded and still didn't get a codex!

Well... they said they'd try harder this time so..... lets just stay positive? I say, despite being one of the most pessimistic people regarding any and all DG news and changes.

Oh and as far as terrain goes, I always found the whole wobbly model bit was what held it back for many. It can be annoying trying to actually get units in and out of terrain, the fancier it is the more you have issues. That's why I know some people prefer not to run a ton, or anything to fancy.

 Melissia wrote:
FFS I even agree that they should take more damage from commissars than normal (but ONLY conscripts, not guardsmen). But this should at most be 1d6 mortal wounds, which is basically decimation for a conscript squad.

Which I think is another reasonable change, and you've managed to convince me that may be all it takes.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
A lot of people are forgetting that the Space Marine has a Bolt Pistol, which makes him considerably better than he sounds at close range. Remember, you can fire your Bolt Pistol and your Boltgun, and fire your Bolt Pistol in melee.

You actually can't fire pistols and other weapons, it's all pistols or all assault/heavy/RF weapons.

SilverAlien wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Hah! "Temporary issue." Ask the SoB or DE what GW's "Temporary" can be like. Bretonians waited until the planet exploded and still didn't get a codex!

Well... they said they'd try harder this time so..... lets just stay positive?

Oh and as far as terrain goes, I always found the whole wobbly model bit was what held it back for many. It can be annoying trying to actually get units in and out of terrain, the fancier it is the more you have issues. That's why I know some people prefer not to run a ton, or anything to fancy.

Yes, I think GW really ought to bring back their old card terrain (the ones in that new smaller starter are a great sign!). Right now I've got a mixture of home made, Pegasus, and GW for buildings. They're a PITA to take places, and they were expensive which limits the quantity.

Card buildings are lightweight, cheap, and can be reliable as to their affects.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
A lot of people are forgetting that the Space Marine has a Bolt Pistol, which makes him considerably better than he sounds at close range. Remember, you can fire your Bolt Pistol and your Boltgun, and fire your Bolt Pistol in melee.

You actually can't fire pistols and other weapons, it's all pistols or all assault/heavy/RF weapons.

Corrected.

3 Conscripts with a Commissar but without Orders are cumulatively, 80% as effective as Space Marines. This is appropriate, considering they're 85% the price.
3 Conscripts without either are 67% as effective as Space Marines. This is also appropriate, considering they're 70% the price
3 Conscripts with both are 137% as effective as Space Marines. This is not appropriate, as they're 92% the price.

Clearly, Commissars and Conscripts on their own are very appropriately costed.

 argonak wrote:
Yes, I think GW really ought to bring back their old card terrain (the ones in that new smaller starter are a great sign!). Right now I've got a mixture of home made, Pegasus, and GW for buildings. They're a PITA to take places, and they were expensive which limits the quantity.

Card buildings are lightweight, cheap, and can be reliable as to their affects.

I really liked the look of those, I've never actually seen one before recently. Even my friends who've been in the hobby for a while didn't seem to be familiar with them.

In fact all it'd take is adding this to a conscript squad:

"Decimation
Unlike Guardsmen, Conscripts are not hardened, trained fighters. Commissars must put extra effort in to maintaining discipline, and it is not unheard of for a Conscript squad to face decimation in order to ensure they continue fighting to the last man.

Whenever a Conscript squad receives the benefits of a Commissar or Lord Commissar's Summary Execution ability, instead of taking a maximum of 1 wound, roll 1d6 to determine the number of models wounded as a result of failing a Morale test."

 Melissia wrote:
In fact all it'd take is adding this to a conscript squad:

"Decimation
Unlike Guardsmen, Conscripts are not hardened, trained fighters. Commissars must put extra effort in to maintaining discipline, and it is not unheard of for a Conscript squad to face decimation in order to ensure they continue fighting to the last man.

Whenever a Conscript squad receives the benefits of a Commissar or Lord Commissar's Summary Execution ability, instead of taking a maximum of 1 wound, roll 1d6 to determine the number of models wounded as a result of failing a Morale test."

Considering the actual numbers, which I believe to have corrected, the change shouldn't be to Commissars, but to Voice of Command:

Undisciplined
Unlike Guardsmen, Conscripts are not trained fighters. Without the extensive drilling and oversight of sergeants, they are slow and inefficient when reacting to commands.

Whenever a Conscript Squad receives the benefits of Voice of Command, roll a D6. On a 3+, the Order takes effect, otherwise, it has no effect on the Conscripts this turn. It may not be re-issued this turn.




By percentages, this brings them back in line with Guardsmen. Losing a ton of models from Battleshock just makes them crap.

I'd be fine with either one. As long as the change only effects conscripts' ability to receive support from characters-- which is really the only problem here IMO.

I would second the proposal to do something about their efficiency receiving orders rather than to their durability, via morale or otherwise. I'd probably quibble over the exact mechanic, since I'm just going to use a CP to re-roll that 3+ if I fail, but it's not like we're actually writing rules here.

 Melissia wrote:
I'd be fine with either one. As long as the change only effects conscripts' ability to receive support from characters-- which is really the only problem here IMO.

It's pretty straightforward:
For 28% of the cost of a Space Marine, a Conscript with a Commissar is cumulatively 26% the effectiveness
For 23% of the cost of a Space Marine, a Conscript without a Commissar is cumulatively 22% the effectiveness
For 30% of the cost of a Space Marine, a Conscript with Orders and a Commissar is cumulatively 49% the effectiveness


Therefore, the problem is in Orders, not the Commissar.

Of course, we're not accounting for the fact that they're not really super efficient at killing things, even with orders, because the squad dispersed in a defensive line isn't exactly getting anywhere near it's full combat value. A squad packed up tight isn't getting it's true defensive value, but it loses less defensive value than it gains offensive value.

Sounds logical to me. And it doesn't really reduce their staying power, which is the primary reason you'd use conscripts. So I'm happy with that.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
By percentages, this brings them back in line with Guardsmen. Losing a ton of models from Battleshock just makes them crap.

I'd disagree with categorizing 3.5 on average instead of 1 as "tons".

Their entire purpose is to sit there and soak up damage, so making them worse at that just encourages players to use them in other ways instead. Where making them less useful to give orders to means they are at their best soaking up damage and rather iffy anywhere else.

 Melissia wrote:
Their entire purpose is to sit there and soak up damage, so making them worse at that just encourages players to use them in other ways instead. Where making them less useful to give orders to means they are at their best soaking up damage and rather iffy anywhere else.

Something who has a job to do can still be just a bit too effective at that job. A screening unit can be too good at screening.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Their entire purpose is to sit there and soak up damage, so making them worse at that just encourages players to use them in other ways instead. Where making them less useful to give orders to means they are at their best soaking up damage and rather iffy anywhere else.

Something who has a job to do can still be just a bit too effective at that job. A screening unit can be too good at screening.

If you can easily wipe it out in one turn like a lot of people in this thread-- including yourself, I should add-- suggest, it would suck at screening.

 Melissia wrote:
If you can easily wipe it out in one turn like a lot of people in this thread-- including yourself, I should add-- suggest, it would suck at screening.

Which your suggestion would not be at the level of, while making their lower leadership and thus morale issues, part of the reason they are so cheap, at least slightly felt even when a commissar is around. It's 2-5 more causalities per turn, not going to destroy the unit regardless.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
If you can easily wipe it out in one turn like a lot of people in this thread-- including yourself, I should add-- suggest, it would suck at screening.

Which your suggestion would not be at the level of, while making their lower leadership and thus morale issues, part of the reason they are so cheap, at least slightly felt even when a commissar is around. It's 2-5 more causalities per turn, not going to destroy the unit regardless.

But it's unneccessary, and doesn't address the actual problem, because their survivability with a commissar is exactly in line with where it should be, relative to a tactical marine.

It would just be annoying to us, and not make a difference in any way, shape, or form for space marine players [who are really the only problem here, because everyone else handles it just fine, and I don't have a problem if *gasp* Space Marines aren't #1 at everything and other armies are actually able to compete], which would result in a chain of continued nerfing until the unit is left unrecognizable.

The unit as it is is pretty much perfectly priced for it's intended task. The problem is, that it can be used outside of its intended task better than units that are supposed to perform that other task.

God forbid any of you IG players ever see a decent codex. All you do is dismiss anyone's claims with literally "boohoo space marines", at least try to act a bit better than wave serpent spammers.

 Quickjager wrote:
God forbid any of you IG players ever see a decent codex. All you do is dismiss anyone's claims with literally "boohoo space marines", at least try to act a bit better than wave serpent spammers.

The statement "boohoo space marines" used to be true. Unfortunately, most people are either hypocrites or cannot see the forest for the trees. So their old argument sticks around in their head even when it is no longer true.

If this is what good codices do to people thank god I wasn't GK in 5th and god forbid GK ever become tier 1.