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I definitely wouldn't want to have to sacrifice 1d6 guys just to issue an order (they're ld4, so rolling 1d6+4 against that would result in 1d6 casualties).

I would be fine with having to take a 5th ed style LD test to issue an order to them, if they could still get their LD boosted by a Commissar. 2d6, aiming to be less than or equal to their LD score. The order would almost never go off if they're on their own, but if they have a Commissar their success rate would be about 70% and a Lord Commissar would make it about 80%.

 ross-128 wrote:
I definitely wouldn't want to have to sacrifice 1d6 guys just to issue an order (they're ld4, so rolling 1d6+4 against that would result in 1d6 casualties).

I would be fine with having to take a 5th ed style LD test to issue an order to them, if they could still get their LD boosted by a Commissar. 2d6, aiming to be less than or equal to their LD score. The order would almost never go off if they're on their own, but if they have a Commissar their success rate would be about 70% and a Lord Commissar would make it about 80%.

If they are standing near a commissar then it would be max 1D3. So it would result in 1D3 casualties. You could debate making it a +2 or 3 on the roll if the concern about them taking casualties is too high. With the commissar though at 1D3 you are average losing slightly less than 2 models to get the order off (16% of the time you will roll 1 on the D6, and 33% of the time you will roll a 1 on the D3, which you will probably roll if you roll a 3+ on the D6.), which if it is important is worth it.

I look at it this way. You have 50 conscripts, they get charged, lose say 10 models in combat, lose 2 more to morale at the end of the turn. If you stay in combat you stay at 38 models, if you decide you want to fall back, you likely lose another 2, down to 36 models. Now if you want them to "Get back into the fight", you can lose another 2 models to do it down to 34 models. So you end up losing 16 models. Right now you lose 11. So they would be essentially 33% less durable, but only if you want to do all those things. You could leave them in combat, or just fall back, and take fewer wounds.


Now if you aren't near a commissar you are going to die to these morale checks, but that is kind of already true, and so you won't take extra tests.

I can't think of any other armies where their armywide special rule causes some units to lose models during their own turn.

Though I do believe the Orks used to have that so fair enough.

Disclaimer, I'm a Guard player.

I don't really understand the angst over conscripts. Are they good? Obviously yes but I don't think that means they need a nerf. They're 3 point ablative wounds that can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Even with first rank second rank, you're still hitting on 5s and it's unlikely everything will be within 12".

They're a fine way to stop turn 1 charges but Guard NEED that. They wouldn't even be viable without some sort of screen. I get it that all of the bodies are a pretty strong foil to some lists like smite spam and Grey Knights (actual Grey Knights not storm ravens spam, hurricane bolters eat conscripts for lunch) but that's fine. There shouldn't be list types that have no soft match ups. That's part of the game otherwise why would you play anything other than the Uber army with no foils.

On the same note there are plenty of situations where mass conscripts are pretty useless. Against heavy shooting your opponent is going to just shoot past them (you'd have to have some crazy terrain to hide everything) while the conscripts slowly move into position to try to actually contribute, armies like harlequins can just go over them and anything really good in assault (berzerkers, ork boys) are going to evaporate your conscripts in a hurry even with a commissar. And of course if your opponent can snipe out your squishy commissars your blobs will melt to morale.

So I just don't see that they need a fix. They're good but not OP.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of any other armies where their armywide special rule causes some units to lose models during their own turn.

Though I do believe the Orks used to have that so fair enough.

Psychic powers can do it for most armies with perils. Daemon Summoning, can cause mortal wounds to the summoning model.

Plenty of units have rules that cause wounds to themselves, lose models during your own turn. I mean you could just say "Conscripts cannot take orders", but this at least gives you the option.

Or you could make the orders part a second rule for them.

Disorganized : "In order to gain the benefit of orders this unit must succeed on LD test."

Then leave the other rule as

Unwilling Combatants - This unit must always use its own leadership. Further when falling back this unit must take an morale test with a +4 modifier on the D6 roll.

This causes less casualties but has orders failing 33% of the time.

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of any other armies where their armywide special rule causes some units to lose models during their own turn.

Though I do believe the Orks used to have that so fair enough.

Psychic powers can do it for most armies with perils. Daemon Summoning, can cause mortal wounds to the summoning model.

Plenty of units have rules that cause wounds to themselves, lose models during your own turn. I mean you could just say "Conscripts cannot take orders", but this at least gives you the option.

Or you could make the orders part a second rule for them.

Disorganized : "In order to gain the benefit of orders this unit must succeed on LD test."

Then leave the other rule as

Unwilling Combatants - This unit must always use its own leadership. Further when falling back this unit must take an morale test with a +4 modifier on the D6 roll.

This causes less casualties but has orders failing 33% of the time.

Psychic powers are a BRB special rule, though, not like, an army's defining one. I've noticed that each army tends to have the 'defining special rule' in 8th, that makes that army do a thing. Orders for the Guard, Canticles for AM, Reanimation Protocols, And They Shall Know No Fear, etc.

tomguycot wrote:
Disclaimer, I'm a Guard player.

I don't really understand the angst over conscripts. Are they good? Obviously yes but I don't think that means they need a nerf. They're 3 point ablative wounds that can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Even with first rank second rank, you're still hitting on 5s and it's unlikely everything will be within 12".

They're a fine way to stop turn 1 charges but Guard NEED that. They wouldn't even be viable without some sort of screen. I get it that all of the bodies are a pretty strong foil to some lists like smite spam and Grey Knights (actual Grey Knights not storm ravens spam, hurricane bolters eat conscripts for lunch) but that's fine. There shouldn't be list types that have no soft match ups. That's part of the game otherwise why would you play anything other than the Uber army with no foils.

On the same note there are plenty of situations where mass conscripts are pretty useless. Against heavy shooting your opponent is going to just shoot past them (you'd have to have some crazy terrain to hide everything) while the conscripts slowly move into position to try to actually contribute, armies like harlequins can just go over them and anything really good in assault (berzerkers, ork boys) are going to evaporate your conscripts in a hurry even with a commissar. And of course if your opponent can snipe out your squishy commissars your blobs will melt to morale.

So I just don't see that they need a fix. They're good but not OP.

The problem is that they are so cheap that you can field 150 of them and still have a functional army (1450 points), and at that point, armies can't just fly over them, cannot really assault through them super easily (they just fall back and screen again). IG is happy to get into a shooting match with basically everything, so having impenetrable assault defense is a pretty big deal. I'm not positive the need a fix, but I do think they are too powerful for their cost given their interaction with commissars, orders, and the fall back mechanic.

I definitely disagree with the stated goal of some posters that "standard infantry should be able to cost-effectively wipe conscripts in one turn".

Mostly because that wouldn't be "conscripts being balanced", that would be "conscripts failing to do their job". The most that should be hoped for is a unit that can win a trade with the Conscripts over the course of two or three turns. If you want to remove them in one turn you *should* have to commit overwhelming force to it, because their entire job is to force your opponent to make hard decisions.

So obviously it can be a bit difficult to come to an agreement on what an appropriate balance measure would be, when we can't agree on what balance even is.

Still, I would be okay with orders being a bit unreliable on conscripts. I just wouldn't want them to be removed entirely, because that would just remove way too much utility. And I wouldn't want to have to sacrifice models to make it work, the Imperium may be ruthless but we're not Chaos here, orders don't run on blood magic. Lopping 12% off the squad just to issue an order is excessive.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of any other armies where their armywide special rule causes some units to lose models during their own turn.

Though I do believe the Orks used to have that so fair enough.

Psychic powers can do it for most armies with perils. Daemon Summoning, can cause mortal wounds to the summoning model.

Plenty of units have rules that cause wounds to themselves, lose models during your own turn. I mean you could just say "Conscripts cannot take orders", but this at least gives you the option.

Or you could make the orders part a second rule for them.

Disorganized : "In order to gain the benefit of orders this unit must succeed on LD test."

Then leave the other rule as

Unwilling Combatants - This unit must always use its own leadership. Further when falling back this unit must take an morale test with a +4 modifier on the D6 roll.

This causes less casualties but has orders failing 33% of the time.

Psychic powers are a BRB special rule, though, not like, an army's defining one. I've noticed that each army tends to have the 'defining special rule' in 8th, that makes that army do a thing. Orders for the Guard, Canticles for AM, Reanimation Protocols, And They Shall Know No Fear, etc.

And orks defining rule is? Mob rule? Which their chaff unit Gretchin don't get to use? So it would not be unprecedented for a unit to not benefit from an army wide special rule. Not all necrons have RP, Not all eldar have battle focus etc.

So like I said you could easily say "cannot take orders", but I figure making it harder for them to do so, is better than not having them at all.

How many points should i have to commit to eliminate 50 conscripts in 1 turn?

If, as Grey Knights, I sink 700 points into Storm Bolter power-armor strike squads, I can shoot a conscript squad off of the table in 1 turn.

Does this seem fair? 700 points of my troops, to kill 150 of yours?

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of any other armies where their armywide special rule causes some units to lose models during their own turn.

Though I do believe the Orks used to have that so fair enough.

Psychic powers can do it for most armies with perils. Daemon Summoning, can cause mortal wounds to the summoning model.

Plenty of units have rules that cause wounds to themselves, lose models during your own turn. I mean you could just say "Conscripts cannot take orders", but this at least gives you the option.

Or you could make the orders part a second rule for them.

Disorganized : "In order to gain the benefit of orders this unit must succeed on LD test."

Then leave the other rule as

Unwilling Combatants - This unit must always use its own leadership. Further when falling back this unit must take an morale test with a +4 modifier on the D6 roll.

This causes less casualties but has orders failing 33% of the time.

Psychic powers are a BRB special rule, though, not like, an army's defining one. I've noticed that each army tends to have the 'defining special rule' in 8th, that makes that army do a thing. Orders for the Guard, Canticles for AM, Reanimation Protocols, And They Shall Know No Fear, etc.

And orks defining rule is? Mob rule? Which their chaff unit Gretchin don't get to use? So it would not be unprecedented for a unit to not benefit from an army wide special rule. Not all necrons have RP, Not all eldar have battle focus etc.

So like I said you could easily say "cannot take orders", but I figure making it harder for them to do so, is better than not having them at all.

I mean, cannot take orders is fine with me honestly. But people ITT believe the problem with conscripts is their durability, not firepower (see your own post about having 'impenetrable assault defense') which removing orders does not affect in the slightest.

Furthermore, despite all the panic-mode players here who wax lyrical about the Conscript's game-ruining offensive firepower, I don't really know any IG players, on the internet or otherwise, suggesting that anyone take conscripts for their firepower. Orders can help their firepower improve, so taking away orders removes that, but that's not what most people use them for anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
How many points should i have to commit to eliminate 50 conscripts in 1 turn?

If, as Grey Knights, I sink 700 points into Storm Bolter power-armor strike squads, I can shoot a conscript squad off of the table in 1 turn.

Does this seem fair? 700 points of my troops, to kill 150 of yours?

Yes, because if you remove the conscript's durability you've removed their entire point in existing. They're literally walls, like supply-depots in Starcraft or Stone Walls in Age of Empires. Not being insta-deleted by enemy stuff is about all they have going for them.

right now 8th has its share of Spam..While Conscripts can be spammed you wont find many players running that sort of spam at tournaments effectively. An average player will wear themselves out playing in a 5-7 game tournament. Good players will be good regardless. Spam players will just find other spam to run...and there are way better lists that spam then conscipts

I ran 80 of the suckers and they are decent.. not over powered.. they do a job and do it well. Make conscripts ineffective and you will just see other spam get even worse.

Storm raven spam becomes worse,Horror spam becomes worse, 3 baneblade variant spam armies get worse, razorwing spam gets worse.

Conscripts aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

 ross-128 wrote:
I definitely disagree with the stated goal of some posters that "standard infantry should be able to cost-effectively wipe conscripts in one turn".

Mostly because that wouldn't be "conscripts being balanced", that would be "conscripts failing to do their job". The most that should be hoped for is a unit that can win a trade with the Conscripts over the course of two or three turns. If you want to remove them in one turn you *should* have to commit overwhelming force to it, because their entire job is to force your opponent to make hard decisions.

So obviously it can be a bit difficult to come to an agreement on what an appropriate balance measure would be, when we can't agree on what balance even is.

Still, I would be okay with orders being a bit unreliable on conscripts. I just wouldn't want them to be removed entirely, because that would just remove way too much utility. And I wouldn't want to have to sacrifice models to make it work, the Imperium may be ruthless but we're not Chaos here, orders don't run on blood magic. Lopping 12% off the squad just to issue an order is excessive.

As I said they aren't in the original post I made losing 12% (unless you have no commissar) they are losing 4% on average. I prefer making the orders a separate rule though, but people complained "too many rules" because having 2 rules for a model is too many. But with the losses I picture the commissar "forward march" conscripts mill about, commissar shoots a conscript, "I said forward march" conscripts still a bit slow, he shoots another, and they get moving.

But I'd be fine with orders being unreliable instead, and only having the morale test on fall back.

I suppose if you wanted a compromise, you could give orders to conscripts a flat 50% chance to succeed that isn't dependent on any of their stats (so it wouldn't be modified by their LD getting boosted), but a Commissar can choose to blam someone for either a re-roll or an auto-pass.

So basically you give an order, and it either succeeds or you ask yourself "Hmm, how much do I *really* want that order?"

 zedsdead wrote:
right now 8th has its share of Spam..While Conscripts can be spammed you wont find many players running that sort of spam at tournaments effectively. An average player will wear themselves out playing in a 5-7 game tournament. Good players will be good regardless. Spam players will just find other spam to run...and there are way better lists that spam then conscipts

I ran 80 of the suckers and they are decent.. not over powered.. they do a job and do it well. Make conscripts ineffective and you will just see other spam get even worse.

Storm raven spam becomes worse,Horror spam becomes worse, 3 baneblade variant spam armies get worse, razorwing spam gets worse.

Conscripts aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

Actually, you will.

For instance, look at the above poster. He says it should take 700 points of troops to wipe out conscripts. Fine. Guess what? I can field 2 kitted storm ravens for the same cost, and just lay waste to your tanks, ignoring conscripts.

If you look at the ETC, you'll see people have realized that storm ravens are the only viable option for <insert flavor> marine lists. Guard is part of the reason for this raven spam problem. Also, if you look at the ETC, you'll see something like 6,000 conscripts between 200 players. That should tell you something. They are *very* viable.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of any other armies where their armywide special rule causes some units to lose models during their own turn.

Though I do believe the Orks used to have that so fair enough.

Psychic powers can do it for most armies with perils. Daemon Summoning, can cause mortal wounds to the summoning model.

Plenty of units have rules that cause wounds to themselves, lose models during your own turn. I mean you could just say "Conscripts cannot take orders", but this at least gives you the option.

Or you could make the orders part a second rule for them.

Disorganized : "In order to gain the benefit of orders this unit must succeed on LD test."

Then leave the other rule as

Unwilling Combatants - This unit must always use its own leadership. Further when falling back this unit must take an morale test with a +4 modifier on the D6 roll.

This causes less casualties but has orders failing 33% of the time.

Psychic powers are a BRB special rule, though, not like, an army's defining one. I've noticed that each army tends to have the 'defining special rule' in 8th, that makes that army do a thing. Orders for the Guard, Canticles for AM, Reanimation Protocols, And They Shall Know No Fear, etc.

And orks defining rule is? Mob rule? Which their chaff unit Gretchin don't get to use? So it would not be unprecedented for a unit to not benefit from an army wide special rule. Not all necrons have RP, Not all eldar have battle focus etc.

So like I said you could easily say "cannot take orders", but I figure making it harder for them to do so, is better than not having them at all.

I mean, cannot take orders is fine with me honestly. But people ITT believe the problem with conscripts is their durability, not firepower (see your own post about having 'impenetrable assault defense') which removing orders does not affect in the slightest.

Furthermore, despite all the panic-mode players here who wax lyrical about the Conscript's game-ruining offensive firepower, I don't really know any IG players, on the internet or otherwise, suggesting that anyone take conscripts for their firepower. Orders can help their firepower improve, so taking away orders removes that, but that's not what most people use them for anyways.

The orders for me are less the extra firepower, and more the Ignores penalties for fall back. The issue right now is this. Say I play orks. I run 30 boyz into your 50 conscripts.

You kill ~5 in overwatch. I get 100 attacks, kill 30 concripts. The remaining 20 hit back, kill 2 more orks. Lose 1 more to morale. They fall back, with no penalty, get to shoot kill 4 more orks. (down to 19) The rest of your army finishes off the ork squad for all purposes. Then you still have 19 to screen a second charging unit with. All this assumes that my mob gets there unhurt, makes the charge (which if they are unharmed is probably long), all the boyz get to swing(they won't). So in reality the scenario end up better for the conscripts than this would suggest.

With my changes you lose 1 more model to morale, 2 more to fall back, and 2 more to the order (or none if we go with the LD test method). SO you would be down to 14 instead of 19. Still not game breaking, just makes it a bit easier to grind them down.

Could someone math out the 700 points versus conscripts? I may be missing something (i.e. you may have factored in the Smite damage) but to my mind you would need more.

The point though is how bad all the probabilities are for killing them. While I realise its taking mathhammer to the point where people get really upset a basic marine outside rapid fire gets just 6.8% of his points back. That is the sort of percentage he would get shooting a lascannon Razorback.

Meanwhile the conscript shooting back gets 16% base, 32% with FRFSRF. 64% (!!!) if he is in rapid fire range.

The do great damage and are hard to kill. We can all wait on tournament results but I suspect the leafblower in a conscript sea is going to be a top tier army.

 Marmatag wrote:

If you look at the ETC, you'll see people have realized that storm ravens are the only viable option for <insert flavor> marine lists. Guard is part of the reason for this raven spam problem. Also, if you look at the ETC, you'll see something like 6,000 conscripts between 200 players. That should tell you something. They are *very* viable.

And turn one assaults are the reason why conscripts are in almost every AM list, so assaulty armies are a part of the reason for this conscript problem. That rabbit hole keeps going.

 Marmatag wrote:
How many points should i have to commit to eliminate 50 conscripts in 1 turn?

If, as Grey Knights, I sink 700 points into Storm Bolter power-armor strike squads, I can shoot a conscript squad off of the table in 1 turn.

Does this seem fair? 700 points of my troops, to kill 150 of yours?

try shooting at Celestine. that's only one model. At least your shooting at 50 with conscripts.

 ross-128 wrote:
I suppose if you wanted a compromise, you could give orders to conscripts a flat 50% chance to succeed that isn't dependent on any of their stats (so it wouldn't be modified by their LD getting boosted), but a Commissar can choose to blam someone for either a re-roll or an auto-pass.

So basically you give an order, and it either succeeds or you ask yourself "Hmm, how much do I *really* want that order?"

You could do that and still just make it an LD test and keep them unable to be modified, then they only fail 33% of the time, and the commissar can kill to auto pass. But that requires including the commissar as part of the rules for the conscripts which really isn't clean.

 Marmatag wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
right now 8th has its share of Spam..While Conscripts can be spammed you wont find many players running that sort of spam at tournaments effectively. An average player will wear themselves out playing in a 5-7 game tournament. Good players will be good regardless. Spam players will just find other spam to run...and there are way better lists that spam then conscipts

I ran 80 of the suckers and they are decent.. not over powered.. they do a job and do it well. Make conscripts ineffective and you will just see other spam get even worse.

Storm raven spam becomes worse,Horror spam becomes worse, 3 baneblade variant spam armies get worse, razorwing spam gets worse.

Conscripts aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

Actually, you will.

For instance, look at the above poster. He says it should take 700 points of troops to wipe out conscripts. Fine. Guess what? I can field 2 kitted storm ravens for the same cost, and just lay waste to your tanks, ignoring conscripts.

If you look at the ETC, you'll see people have realized that storm ravens are the only viable option for <insert flavor> marine lists. Guard is part of the reason for this raven spam problem. Also, if you look at the ETC, you'll see something like 6,000 conscripts between 200 players. That should tell you something. They are *very* viable.

Wait, conscripts have a counter you can field that can outright ignore them? Wow I thought they were OP.

30 conscripts per players isn't impressive; the question is how many AM players there are, and whether those conscripts actually win, which remains to be seen. If it ends up with more than 200 conscripts per AM player, then I'd be surprised. Because that's 600 points of conscripts, which is a ton, and will be very unwieldy on the tabletop.

Breng77 wrote:

It really isn't too many rules. I can do it with 2 rules.

Which wouldn't be more than many other units. In fact it is pretty easy fix overall.

It's not just the number of rules but the fact that they're being put on what is ostensibly one of the most basic units in the game. Even 2 negative rules seems a bit much. Really, I'd think one negative rule would be enough. But maybe I just look at things weirdly.

Breng77 wrote:

On the Commissar change Summary execution to the same rule as an ork warboss.

No. Just no.

It is both unfluffy and screws over every IG unit except Conscripts.

Breng77 wrote:

No added rules there just one changed. Most IG units would not have a huge issue with this because any unit within 6" is LD 8, and no non-conscript squad is larger than 10 models. So at LD 8, they lose 1 model on a 6 if they take 3 casualties, If they take 5 casualties they have a 50-50 shots of losing at least a single model. So it isn't quite as good as the current rule, but it is good enough for most purposes, yes if you lose 8 models the last 2 are probably dead, but I really don't think that is a huge issue.

You're seriously underestimating how much this would hurt IG units.

 Marmatag wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
right now 8th has its share of Spam..While Conscripts can be spammed you wont find many players running that sort of spam at tournaments effectively. An average player will wear themselves out playing in a 5-7 game tournament. Good players will be good regardless. Spam players will just find other spam to run...and there are way better lists that spam then conscipts

I ran 80 of the suckers and they are decent.. not over powered.. they do a job and do it well. Make conscripts ineffective and you will just see other spam get even worse.

Storm raven spam becomes worse,Horror spam becomes worse, 3 baneblade variant spam armies get worse, razorwing spam gets worse.

Conscripts aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

Actually, you will.

For instance, look at the above poster. He says it should take 700 points of troops to wipe out conscripts. Fine. Guess what? I can field 2 kitted storm ravens for the same cost, and just lay waste to your tanks, ignoring conscripts.

If you look at the ETC, you'll see people have realized that storm ravens are the only viable option for <insert flavor> marine lists. Guard is part of the reason for this raven spam problem. Also, if you look at the ETC, you'll see something like 6,000 conscripts between 200 players. That should tell you something. They are *very* viable.

lol..your kidding me right !. Ravens aren't Viable because of Conscripts.. They are viable because they are one of the most efficient Units in the game for there cost. Add in a character buff and you have 4-6 units that lay down increadable.. re-rollable hits, from a unit that can not be locked into combat, can only be engaged by other fly units, can shoot while retreating and moving at full BS, move 40+ inches and are hard to hit.

That's why there is Raven spam..

Conscripts do only one thing against them.. that is keeping Ravens from double tapping your units with melta. 4-6 ravens laying rapid fire into them from Hurricane bolters make them melt away. Its effective for a turn or 2... then bye bye conscripts

 Marmatag wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
right now 8th has its share of Spam..While Conscripts can be spammed you wont find many players running that sort of spam at tournaments effectively. An average player will wear themselves out playing in a 5-7 game tournament. Good players will be good regardless. Spam players will just find other spam to run...and there are way better lists that spam then conscipts

I ran 80 of the suckers and they are decent.. not over powered.. they do a job and do it well. Make conscripts ineffective and you will just see other spam get even worse.

Storm raven spam becomes worse,Horror spam becomes worse, 3 baneblade variant spam armies get worse, razorwing spam gets worse.

Conscripts aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

Actually, you will.

For instance, look at the above poster. He says it should take 700 points of troops to wipe out conscripts. Fine. Guess what? I can field 2 kitted storm ravens for the same cost, and just lay waste to your tanks, ignoring conscripts.

If you look at the ETC, you'll see people have realized that storm ravens are the only viable option for <insert flavor> marine lists. Guard is part of the reason for this raven spam problem. Also, if you look at the ETC, you'll see something like 6,000 conscripts between 200 players. That should tell you something. They are *very* viable.

Well for starters, as Grey Knights you shouldn't be relying entirely on your shooting phase for your offensive output. You have a shooting phase, an assault phase, AND a psychic phase. Grey Knights are competent in all three phases, use them. Grey Knights are also pretty much a worst-case scenario for fighting any horde army, it's just a major weakness of theirs.

You also have to look at what you're getting by focusing Conscripts down like that. If you wipe the Conscripts in one turn of shooting, how many casualties are you taking in return? None? So by focusing them down like that, the Conscripts are dead and you still have 700 points of units that can continue to kill everything else on the board. Killing conscripts is not about scoring points, it's about removing an obstacle that is standing between you and the things you want to kill.

If you don't think removing that obstacle is worth committing that much effort, then find a way to ignore it instead and just send a unit that can eventually win a trade against them to tie them up. Winning a trade over a few turns against Conscripts is much cheaper than going for a one-turn wipe, you've just got to weigh points against time.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
right now 8th has its share of Spam..While Conscripts can be spammed you wont find many players running that sort of spam at tournaments effectively. An average player will wear themselves out playing in a 5-7 game tournament. Good players will be good regardless. Spam players will just find other spam to run...and there are way better lists that spam then conscipts

I ran 80 of the suckers and they are decent.. not over powered.. they do a job and do it well. Make conscripts ineffective and you will just see other spam get even worse.

Storm raven spam becomes worse,Horror spam becomes worse, 3 baneblade variant spam armies get worse, razorwing spam gets worse.

Conscripts aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

Actually, you will.

For instance, look at the above poster. He says it should take 700 points of troops to wipe out conscripts. Fine. Guess what? I can field 2 kitted storm ravens for the same cost, and just lay waste to your tanks, ignoring conscripts.

If you look at the ETC, you'll see people have realized that storm ravens are the only viable option for <insert flavor> marine lists. Guard is part of the reason for this raven spam problem. Also, if you look at the ETC, you'll see something like 6,000 conscripts between 200 players. That should tell you something. They are *very* viable.

Wait, conscripts have a counter you can field that can outright ignore them? Wow I thought they were OP.

30 conscripts per players isn't impressive; the question is how many AM players there are, and whether those conscripts actually win, which remains to be seen. If it ends up with more than 200 conscripts per AM player, then I'd be surprised. Because that's 600 points of conscripts, which is a ton, and will be very unwieldy on the tabletop.

That average of 30 per person is meaningless, not everyone is playing imperial guard. There's also an average of almost 1 storm raven per person, but that's because people who play them bring 5.

Look - if you accept that the storm raven spam isn't OP, then i'll accept that conscripts aren't OP, and we can have a 6 stormraven + draigo vs your IG army some time.

Not personally what i want out of 40k, but if it's balanced, I can get over my delicate sensibilities.

If i had my way, the "flyer wing" detachment would be deleted, and auxiliary detachment wouldn't be allowed in tournament play. And that directly harms my ability to win games...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait, conscripts have a counter you can field that can outright ignore them? Wow I thought they were OP.

30 conscripts per players isn't impressive; the question is how many AM players there are, and whether those conscripts actually win, which remains to be seen. If it ends up with more than 200 conscripts per AM player, then I'd be surprised. Because that's 600 points of conscripts, which is a ton, and will be very unwieldy on the tabletop.

If you can totally ignore the conscripts and win a shooting game against guard, it's fine. Not many armies can do that, usually only by spamming something we all acknowledge is broken (storm ravens).

Well, if say more than 25% of armies are using conscripts and thus some form of conscripts, that's also a balance issue.

Breng77 wrote:


The problem is that they are so cheap that you can field 150 of them and still have a functional army (1450 points), and at that point, armies can't just fly over them, cannot really assault through them super easily (they just fall back and screen again). IG is happy to get into a shooting match with basically everything, so having impenetrable assault defense is a pretty big deal. I'm not positive the need a fix, but I do think they are too powerful for their cost given their interaction with commissars, orders, and the fall back mechanic.

Yes you can still have a functional army but 150 conscripts is not a negligible cost. That plus the support commissar is at least 25% of your army in a 2000 point game and slightly more if you need or want a second commissar.

If we're talking about a shooting match and your opponent hasn't sunk 25% of his costs into ablative wounds you're going to be on the losing end of the exchange in all likelihood because that quarter of your army just isn't going to contribute.

In reference to backing out of assault I think you're overestimating how much room your going to have to do that. 150 conscripts takes up a lot of room and you're going to have to tightly pack up to keep them from just going over you and engaging the business part of your army Oh and you're also conceding the ability to pursue any win condition beyond tabling your opponent because if you aren't castling up your units going out to get objectives aren't benefitting from your screen or your spreading out and once again your opponent can just fly over the screen.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying conscripts are bad. They are definitely good. They just aren't game breaking.

What if they took a similar approach to Conscripts that they did with Command Squads. One Conscript unit per 2 Infantry Squads (similar to how they were limited to infantry platoons before)? And/or limit them to 30 bodies.

I don't mind conscripts so much, but it's probably because I play an army that can 1 turn wipe 50 for 200 points. And that 200 point unit is the core of my army anyway and I have multiple.

Drager wrote:
I don't mind conscripts so much, but it's probably because I play an army that can 1 turn wipe 50 for 200 points. And that 200 point unit is the core of my army anyway and I have multiple.

What unit is that, Khorne Berzerkers? Why doesn't your opponent delete units so you don't get a second fight phase? Or are you using a different unit?


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 perilsensitive wrote:
What if they took a similar approach to Conscripts that they did with Command Squads. One Conscript unit per 2 Infantry Squads (similar to how they were limited to infantry platoons before)? And/or limit them to 30 bodies.

This would make sense. Just like it would make sense to delete the flyer wing, so people have to bring at least 1 hq and 1 troop per 2 fliers.