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Worth mention:

I played Tyranids yesterday. I almost lost, but he made a small mistake. His Mawlocs were very underwhelming.

More importantly, he dropped a squad of Genestealers from a Tyrannocyte, and completely wiped out the conscripts in a single turn. The fact that that was the conscripts dying instead of the Shadowsword or Leman Russes was vital, considering those Genestealers, slightly depleted, later did 12 wounds to the Shadowsword in a single round of close combat.

The issue is as follows for that

10 man marine squad with Plasma, combi-plasma, missile = 183 points. Gets you 7.64 kills (by my math)
So 2 such squads kill about~15 conscripts

For those same points I could have 28 rapid fire marines. Which kill 17conscripts. So you are losing point for point by having special weapons, because they are largely wasting efficiency on the conscripts.

WingedCamel wrote:
I will agree to an extent that certain weapons should do more damage vs hordes (namely things that used to be blasts), but if you are losing to conscripts, you are losing to all hordes.

Well, no most of us aren't. Other horde armies are far easier to manage. They lack the sheer fortitude of conscripts. It takes half as much fire power to kill 200 ork boyz compared to conscripts, making ork hordes manageable. Similar statements can be made about tyranid hordes.

Brimstone horrors are a bit of a doozy but personally I've had more luck against them as morale issues tend to even things out I've found. But this is the only horde army that comes close.

WingedCamel wrote:
Sorry. Conscripts don't need a nerf. Here is why you are wrong if you think they do.
They are not that good.

If you think conscripts are strong because of cost+ unit synergy you are inexperienced in 40k or are not used to fighting hordes.
30 termagants with devourers can churn out 90 s4 shots at 18 inches at BS4+ for 240 pts. Within synapse they ignore the morale phase.

Ork boyz can pump out similar shot count or bury an opponent with an obscene amount attacks that can hit on 2s. Oh and their mobs are fearless too.
30 boyz with choppas and sluggas will typically also kill a leman russ equivalent in a single assault.

On paper the termagants are quite scary.

Really though the issue is that they are a genuine glass cannon. Yes they do 75% more damage than conscripts to say marines at 18" sweet spot. But they have just 36% of the conscripts resilience. Since it is 8 points for a T3, 6+ save.
In other words I hope you get to go first, get into range and shoot because almost everything bar lascannons is going to be shooting you back very efficiently.

A boltgun is just 6% more likely to kill a conscript than an Ork boy despite boys costing twice as much. Yes you can buff this with various things but that adds to the cost.

So put it this way to clear the termagaunts you need about 1/3rd of the firepower necessary to clear the conscripts. To clear boys (who are frankly not that good without Da Jump getting them across the table) you need half the firepower.
Its therefore very easy to shoot both off the table. Its considerably more difficult to shoot down conscripts.

This would be fine if conscript firepower was dreadful but it isn't.

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is as follows for that

10 man marine squad with Plasma, combi-plasma, missile = 183 points. Gets you 7.64 kills (by my math)
So 2 such squads kill about~15 conscripts

For those same points I could have 28 rapid fire marines. Which kill 17conscripts. So you are losing point for point by having special weapons, because they are largely wasting efficiency on the conscripts.

Because no ones going to take just 28 bolter marines without anything else. A more realistic squad is Devastators with missile launchers or even heavy bolters. The comparison given is usually between a unit combo which is considered good, vs. Basic troops with no upgrades.

Besides, the upgunned Tactical Squad starts doing casualties from farther away, and can better damage the artillery, etc. after the conscripts are cleared.

Tyel wrote:

WingedCamel wrote:
Sorry. Conscripts don't need a nerf. Here is why you are wrong if you think they do.
They are not that good.

If you think conscripts are strong because of cost+ unit synergy you are inexperienced in 40k or are not used to fighting hordes.
30 termagants with devourers can churn out 90 s4 shots at 18 inches at BS4+ for 240 pts. Within synapse they ignore the morale phase.

Ork boyz can pump out similar shot count or bury an opponent with an obscene amount attacks that can hit on 2s. Oh and their mobs are fearless too.
30 boyz with choppas and sluggas will typically also kill a leman russ equivalent in a single assault.

On paper the termagants are quite scary.

Really though the issue is that they are a genuine glass cannon. Yes they do 75% more damage than conscripts to say marines at 18" sweet spot. But they have just 36% of the conscripts resilience. Since it is 8 points for a T3, 6+ save.
In other words I hope you get to go first, get into range and shoot because almost everything bar lascannons is going to be shooting you back very efficiently.

A boltgun is just 6% more likely to kill a conscript than an Ork boy despite boys costing twice as much. Yes you can buff this with various things but that adds to the cost.

So put it this way to clear the termagaunts you need about 1/3rd of the firepower necessary to clear the conscripts. To clear boys (who are frankly not that good without Da Jump getting them across the table) you need half the firepower.
Its therefore very easy to shoot both off the table. Its considerably more difficult to shoot down conscripts.

This would be fine if conscript firepower was dreadful but it isn't.

Conscript firepower is dreadful, without orders.

That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Conscript firepower is dreadful, without orders.

That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.

We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Conscript firepower is dreadful, without orders.

That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.

We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.

I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Conscript firepower is dreadful, without orders.

That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.

We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.

There ability to put a wound on anything sucks. At least the bolter will generally wound on a 4. lasguns are always on a 5 and a lot of times a 6 vs any sort of Creature/Vehicle.

putting 100 shots into something and maybe getting 1-2 wounds on it is terrible.

I think the biggest issue is how much the comissar supports them. There are still armies that don't have access to sniper rules, so have no way of taking out support characters. Even if they changed it to killing d3 conscripts instead of 1, that would be an improvement.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Conscript firepower is dreadful, without orders.

That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.

We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.

I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?

Well tac marines certainly aren't good, that's for sure, although the intercessors are even worse. Still, the conscripts are about 80-90% as good at shooting at an average target as guardian defenders, necron warriors or kabalite warriors. I don't think that warrants being described as dreadful.

I think the most elegant way to put a small nerf on them (which I don't agree with btw) would be the Troop infantry tax.

Basically to spam them would require going to the battalion FoC. you couldn't accomplish spam in any other FoC other then that one.

It would put a tax on them (40pts) minimum and start chewing away at available slots.

regardless its a tax on them similar to the commander tax on command squads.

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is as follows for that

10 man marine squad with Plasma, combi-plasma, missile = 183 points. Gets you 7.64 kills (by my math)
So 2 such squads kill about~15 conscripts

For those same points I could have 28 rapid fire marines. Which kill 17conscripts. So you are losing point for point by having special weapons, because they are largely wasting efficiency on the conscripts.

Wasted efficiency on the conscripts, sure. But they're also what are going to win you the game against almost every other army, barring Orks and Nids.

You really can't exclude them. Especially now that you can split fire.

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Conscript firepower is dreadful, without orders.

That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.

We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.

I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?

Well tac marines certainly aren't good, that's for sure, although the intercessors are even worse. Still, the conscripts are about 80-90% as good at shooting at an average target as guardian defenders, necron warriors or kabalite warriors. I don't think that warrants being described as dreadful.

I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.

What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?

Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.

The other big use for conscripts, besides screening, is holding and contesting objectives since it's very, very difficult for any opponent short of orks or nids to get more warm bodies in range than a conscript squad. Tac marines completely ignore that, and are capable of charging them and not dying.

It might not sound like much, but if you're using tactical objectives it can win you the game.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?

Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.

The other big use for conscripts, besides screening, is holding and contesting objectives since it's very, very difficult for any opponent short of orks or nids to get more warm bodies in range than a conscript squad. Tac marines completely ignore that, and are capable of charging them and not dying.

It might not sound like much, but if you're using tactical objectives it can win you the game.

I've not heard of this thing but that's a ding on the utility of Conscripts once again.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.

What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.

None of them are supposed to be the firepower base for their respective armies, I'm comparing troop choices that could fulfill the same role as conscripts. They all pay a certain price for their durability, which is why the conscripts are seen as a problem given that they are at least twice as durable as guardian defenders per point.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.

What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.

I guess you can just say all troops are dreadful, take all stormravens all the time, but fortunately you can buy a cheap HQ who doubles their firepower.
Which moves their firepower up from being dreadful to whatever you consider twice the damage output of a tactical marine to be.

Why are troops being compared to other troops even at this point? The FOC doesn't exist anymore, so it's not like you have some sort of requirement to take two troop choices.

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.

What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.

None of them are supposed to be the firepower base for their respective armies, I'm comparing troop choices that could fulfill the same role as conscripts. They all pay a certain price for their durability, which is why the conscripts are seen as a problem given that they are at least twice as durable as guardian defenders per point.

Except the Guardian Defenders still have better base firepower and access to WAY better fire power, as well as the Battle Focus special rule. So... yes, the unit that has shittier firepower is more durable. I think that's called balance.

Tyel wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.

What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.

I guess you can just say all troops are dreadful, take all stormravens all the time, but fortunately you can buy a cheap HQ who doubles their firepower.
Which moves their firepower up from being dreadful to whatever you consider twice the damage output of a tactical marine to be.

Yes, you're right, I think we're in agreement that orders are busted on conscripts. In fact I think I said that in the post you quoted originally?

EDIT: It was the one Sossen quoted, but yes, I am in complete agreement that with orders, Conscripts are busted. So take orders away! That's not really their function in the army anyways.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.

What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.

Necron warrior firepower is "meh"? WTF are you talking about?

Necron warriors + My Will Be Done is a downright scary amount of firepower. And it's all at -1 AP to boot, and can be doubled at close range!

Guardian Defenders are really only taken for their heavy weapon platforms, and only because they're more durable than war walkers.

Kabalite Warriors simply can't fit in their transports, and don't get access to all their weapons unless they take full squads. This makes them overshadowed by trueborn who get (iirc) all their weapon options with smaller numbers that are raider compatible.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.

What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.

Necron warrior firepower is "meh"? WTF are you talking about?

Necron warriors + My Will Be Done is a downright scary amount of firepower. And it's all at -1 AP to boot, and can be doubled at close range!

Guardian Defenders are really only taken for their heavy weapon platforms, and only because they're more durable than war walkers.

Kabalite Warriors simply can't fit in their transports, and don't get access to all their weapons unless they take full squads. This makes them overshadowed by trueborn who get (iirc) all their weapon options with smaller numbers that are raider compatible.

I have fought two necron players and never once been impressed with their firepower. Usually it's to the point that I shove one of my superheavies into melee with them just to shut them up while shooting everything else, unless they don't get close enough, but then they're not in rapid fire and I can truly ignore them.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.

I thought someone said they got a price increase as well in the codex? If not, it looks like balance might be addressed for at least some armies. Could be IG/SoB are strong now because they will be stuck using that index for a lot longer than other armies. Who knows?

SilverAlien wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.

I thought someone said they got a price increase as well in the codex? If not, it looks like balance might be addressed for at least some armies. Could be IG/SoB are strong now because they will be stuck using that index for a lot longer than other armies. Who knows?

I have no idea. I hope not.

S4 AP-1 is pretty punchy against anything less than T8, mostly because that AP-1 goes a long way. Necrons don't put out a lot of dice but they do make up for it in quality. By the same token, while they don't have a wide selection of anti-tank most of what they do have is S9-10 and AP-4.

 daedalus wrote:
Why are troops being compared to other troops even at this point? The FOC doesn't exist anymore, so it's not like you have some sort of requirement to take two troop choices.

Because the most durable bubblewrap units available to an army are almost exclusively troop choices, afaik, apart from the now nerfed razorwing flocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Except the Guardian Defenders still have better base firepower and access to WAY better fire power, as well as the Battle Focus special rule. So... yes, the unit that has shittier firepower is more durable. I think that's called balance.

It would be balanced if the defenders were even close to as durable, as is conscripts have at least 200% of their durability and 80% of their firepower.

Well, Scarabs are fast attack. At 4.3 points per T3/6+ wound they're a bit on the pricey end at first glance (why do they have BS3+ when they don't have a ranged weapon?), but they're effectively immune to morale just due to how their squad size lines up with their leadership, the special rule on their weapon allowing them to always wound on 5+, and the ability for Spiders to reinforce them on a 2+ roll makes them way scarier than they look.

Also, I don't see anything saying that Scarabs can only be reinforced once per turn, which is an unusual omission for a reinforcement rule...

Conscripts are supposed to be a decent screen for a tank.
Guard BS is (mostly) 4+. You reduce any tank to 50% it is hitting on 5s and snapshooting if it moves.
You reduce it to 25% it is snapshooting, or not moving at all because it won't hit anything if it moves.
Guard tanks are useless the instant they are locked in combat. They NEED a screen. (They cannot fall back and shoot).
Again, if you can't figure out how to thin a t3 5+ model horde enough to declare a charge on the tank they are defending, improve your game.

Conscripts are still soldiers. Giving them orders makes sense. They are not some rag tag militia. They are literally just NEW soldiers. And the literal first thing a soldier is trained to do? Before he can shoot or drill? Follow orders. First and foremost.

Conscripts have not changed other than being able to fall back and shoot (with orders) Where were all the complaints about them in 7th edition?
A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.

Guard units are almost universally T3. You can kill their characters quite easily with snipers, mawlocs, wave serpent shield explosions, assassins. Between da jump and advancing+ assaulting with abilities ork turn 1 assaults are very possible.

There is also no shortage of powers or abilities to make guard shooting less effective.. Plan for all scenarios, and if you expect conscript spam, plan for a way to deal with it in a way that is still useful even if you DON'T run into conscripts.

WingedCamel wrote:
A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.

So one of your suggestions is to sit 30'' away and shoot conscripts with intercessors?

Lets get some math on that: 1000 points of intercessors, that is to say 50 of them, firing at a squad of 50 conscripts from 30'' away. How many do they kill? 18.5 on average. 19.5 with morale casualties.

I don't think that's going to work out.

WingedCamel wrote:
Conscripts are supposed to be a decent screen for a tank.
Guard BS is (mostly) 4+. You reduce any tank to 50% it is hitting on 5s and snapshooting if it moves.
You reduce it to 25% it is snapshooting, or not moving at all because it won't hit anything if it moves.
Guard tanks are useless the instant they are locked in combat. They NEED a screen. (They cannot fall back and shoot).
Again, if you can't figure out how to thin a t3 5+ model horde enough to declare a charge on the tank they are defending, improve your game.

Conscripts are still soldiers. Giving them orders makes sense. They are not some rag tag militia. They are literally just NEW soldiers. And the literal first thing a soldier is trained to do? Before he can shoot or drill? Follow orders. First and foremost.

Conscripts have not changed other than being able to fall back and shoot (with orders) Where were all the complaints about them in 7th edition?
A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.

Guard units are almost universally T3. You can kill their characters quite easily with snipers, mawlocs, wave serpent shield explosions, assassins. Between da jump and advancing+ assaulting with abilities ork turn 1 assaults are very possible.

5+ Armor and T3 received HUGE boosts in survivability in 8TH. Conscripts themselves haven't changed at all, but the playground has indeed
There is also no shortage of powers or abilities to make guard shooting less effective.. Plan for all scenarios, and if you expect conscript spam, plan for a way to deal with it in a way that is still useful even if you DON'T run into conscripts