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ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
Still, 4 war walker would be the most guns you could get on a T6+ chassis for the cost of the conscript blob without searchlights. That's 48 Shuriken Cannon shots*(see Edit below), 32 hits, 27 wounds, 5+15=20 unsaved wounds (5 shots have no saves due to shuriken, 15 more after saves). 20% of the Blob each turn, or 5 conscripts per war walker.
The other direction, 200 shots (no assumptions on who has first turn just yet), 66 hit, 11 wound, 6 wounds after saves. Yes I rounded up from 5.5, but there's also the commander and commissar themselves. It takes exactly 6 wounds to kill a War Walker, and they don't suffer reduced BS before they die, so that would be a critical point.
Assuming the conscripts moved forward 6" each turn, and the walkers moved back 6" each turn, the front line of conscripts would have the walkers pinned into rapid fire range on turn 3 (again, taking a standard 12"/24"/12" deployment).
So... in scenario one I'll weight it towards the conscripts... Assuming the guard move first and they get exactly the six wounds they need to kill a war walker, the war walkers kill 15 in return fire directly. I'll say they split fire and get morale kills on both units, so 17 total dead guardsmen. Turn 2 the guardsmen partially wound a war walker with 83x2=164 shots, and they lose another 17 because there are still 3 walkers. Turn 3, guardsmen are now in rapid fire range and are back up to 66x4=264 shots. Now, not all models are necessarily in rapid fire range yet, so lets say rather than killing off a fresh war walker AND the injured one, which they easily could with those shot numbers, lets say they just kill off a fresh one and leave the injured one. Now the war walkers are killing 10 total conscripts but I'll still give them 2 more for morale in each unit. The next turn the conscripts are definitely all within rapid fire, so a full 52x4=208 shots - more than they had on turn 1! Another full walker is down, and the last one, which has been heavily injured since turn 1, is obviously not making it out of here alive.
I am curious how this goes with Eldar shooting first and also not losing a walker to the first volley! I will do the math on that when I get back from lunch
EDIT: Jeeeeebus for someone who cares about math so much you'd think I'd be less sloppy with it. Each war walker holds two cannons, but I double their shots twice. They should only have 24 shots to start with, so cut down all Eldar damage in half.
As if that wasn't enough, that the searchlights DO work for conscripts targeting vehicles. Up all damage done by conscripts by 50%, and it's no longer remotely close. Back to the drawing board.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:51:16
Unit1126PLL wrote: I can think of an army at 393 points that beats 401 points of conscripts - the Macharius Vulcan and a searchlight. .
My original request was for an Eldar Craftworld army. I don't even know what a Macharius Vulcan is, tbh, so it doesn't help me with my problem. Call me selfish, but I'm not surprised that SOMETHING in all of GW's line-up can beat a conscript blob - I just want something I can use.
Also, just reading what you wrote, it appears you're also counting on conscripts being unreasonably far away. In a standard deployment, the furthest away you can hope to get (you have single deployment remember so conscripts can just place searchlights first and wait to see where you are) is 36" (48" board minus 12" deployment). Presumably your model has width as well, so it's actually a few inches short of 36". Turn 1 conscripts move 6" and advance (I don't know what "move move move" order is but they don't even need it). They are now 30" minus advance move minus width of model away from you. Turn 2 they can move 6" and shoot with at least the front rank, plus how ever many ranks of men the advance move and your model width got them. If they rolled well on the advance move, they'll be in rapid fire range on turn 3.
Sure, if you're playing a <500 point game on a 6x4 table, and you're doing hammer+anvil set up, and you both deploy as far away as possible from each other, a lot of artillery choices are probably doable. I'm looking for realistic conditions though.
Why are you looking for "realistic conditions" in the conscript counter, but then ignoring "realistic conditions" when mathhammering the conscripts against anything else?
Also, I can deploy the searchlight first after their searchlights, and wait to see where a character or conscript blob goes. As soon as one of them goes down, all of them go nearby, for obvious reasons.
Furthermore, the searchlight only works on enemy units within 48", so if he wants to put it first, I can effectively guarantee he doesn't have that bonus, which reduces his firepower to 3.7 wounds per turn at 24" - if he fires every turn, with orders, he can do 22.2 wounds to the Macharius in 6 shooting phases, if the Macharius just stands there and bites it without moving, retaliating, or anything. That is .2 wounds more than is required to kill it.
Also: You wanted a hard counter to conscripts in an earlier post - let me quote it for you. It doesn't specify craftworlds or anything.
Deathypoo wrote: As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
Bolded the relevant bit. I built a 401 pt list that can beat it. If you're worried about deployment, you can add a trio of acolytes to the list, making it 397 points on the nose (after dropping the searchlight which doesn't work anymore), just to ensure the Macharius gets maximum range advantage over the conscripts.
Bang. Hard counter list that wins every time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:11:09
Unit1126PLL wrote: So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
Nope.
I'll believe it if i loose several games in a row to it and can't find a reasonable counter. I also might begin to believe they're OP when they start sweeping tornaments.
Mathammer theoryland isnt going to convince me by itself, especially for such a cumbersome unit.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
Nope.
I'll believe it if i loose several games in a row to it and can't find a reasonable counter. I also might begin to believe they're OP when they start sweeping tornaments.
Mathammer theoryland isnt going to convince me by itself, especially for such a cumbersome unit.
So you don't think they're OP or good? Fair enough.
ALSO:
Revised math without searchlight, assuming a 6-turn game:
Macharius kills 75 conscripts with its main gun, 10 with heavy bolters, and 8 with heavy stubbers, leaving 7. So it doesn't wipe them out, but it also doesn't die, and you've 3 other units.
ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
In the Forge World Astra Militarum FAQ, Saber searchlights only work for Infantry and other Saber platforms.
Kind of unfortunate to me, since I was thinking an artillery battery supported by Sabers would be pretty cool. As it is, probably the best thing to use Searchlights on would be plasma vets (either as a veteran squad or command squad), partially because searchlights don't work on scions. Obviously the benefit there is you get a group of plasma guns that are hitting on 2+ and immune to overheating.
Well, or Conscripts, since raising a 50-strong blob to BS4+ could be potentially significant.
Going first definitely makes a huge difference in 8th edition, and it especially makes a huge difference against conscripts. Because an individual conscript model is easy to remove, and each removed model reduces the overall strength of the blob. In the example of the walkers, as you pointed out those walkers can take 5 wounds with no reduction in firepower (which translates to roughly 180 Conscript lasgun shots with no reduction in firepower).
So starting off by lopping 20 models off the blob, and then shredding another 20 on the next turn could result in quite a large swing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:38:00
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Unit1126PLL wrote: So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
Nope.
I'll believe it if i loose several games in a row to it and can't find a reasonable counter. I also might begin to believe they're OP when they start sweeping tornaments.
Mathammer theoryland isnt going to convince me by itself, especially for such a cumbersome unit.
So you don't think they're OP or good? Fair enough.
ALSO:
Revised math without searchlight, assuming a 6-turn game:
Macharius kills 75 conscripts with its main gun, 10 with heavy bolters, and 8 with heavy stubbers, leaving 7. So it doesn't wipe them out, but it also doesn't die, and you've 3 other units.
I am also in this camp. I don't think conscripts are that good.
For holding objectives? They are fantastic. Their offensive potential laughable.
360+ pts (2x conscript mobs plus supporting characters) will PROBABLY kill a leman russ IF it is in rapid fire range with rank fire.
You can do the same thing for HALF THE POINTS with 2 lascannon squads.
That same conscript mob will also be able to probably out down an ork mob of 30 IF that mob fails morale. (22ish dead orks before morale)
I could do the same damage for around 1/3 the points with mortar squads.
Most of your "mathhammer" places your unit being shot within rapid-fire range and also assumes you have done zero damage to the conscript squad.
They may only be 3 ppm, but every one you kill represents anywhere from 1 to 4 shots being lost by that mob, and you absolutely DO NOT have to kill every single model in the unit to render it useless.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
Does it seem fair that he could throw that kind of effort into a squad of conscripts, and not eliminate them? I can't think of anything else in the game that could survive that. He had to land 3 charges to do this kind of damage, right? That's actually a 14% chance. So he got super lucky. And he got super lucky on the damage rolls to kill 40 with the stealers - that's above their expected output.
I know a lot of people in this thread believe yes, it should not be possible to eliminate conscripts with your entire army in 1 turn. But there's a reason Imperial Guard is absolutely dominating right now.
Do you want a balanced game? This scenario, contrary to this thread, is NOT balanced.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:00:18
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
Does it seem fair that he could throw that kind of effort into a squad of conscripts, and not eliminate them? I can't think of anything else in the game that could survive that. He had to land 3 charges to do this kind of damage, right? That's actually a 14% chance. So he got super lucky. And he got super lucky on the damage rolls to kill 40 with the stealers - that's above their expected output.
I know a lot of people in this thread believe yes, it should not be possible to eliminate conscripts with your entire army in 1 turn. But there's a reason Imperial Guard is absolutely dominating right now.
Do you want a balanced game? This scenario, contrary to this thread, is NOT balanced.
What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
WingedCamel wrote: 360+ pts (2x conscript mobs plus supporting characters) will PROBABLY kill a leman russ IF it is in rapid fire range with rank fire.
You can do the same thing for HALF THE POINTS with 2 lascannon squads.
If the conscripts came anywhere near the efficiency of lascannons for anti-vehicle damage I would be very worried. They don't have to be that good to be OP in other regards.
WingedCamel wrote: That same conscript mob will also be able to probably out down an ork mob of 30 IF that mob fails morale. (22ish dead orks before morale)
I could do the same damage for around 1/3 the points with mortar squads.
This math is not correct. You'd need 234 pts worth of mortars to do the same damage as the 100 conscripts outside of rapid fire range vs orks. Of course the mortars have superior range, which most importantly allows them to sit behind conscripts and fire unhindered.
WingedCamel wrote: Most of your "mathhammer" places your unit being shot within rapid-fire range and also assumes you have done zero damage to the conscript squad.
They may only be 3 ppm, but every one you kill represents anywhere from 1 to 4 shots being lost by that mob, and you absolutely DO NOT have to kill every single model in the unit to render it useless.
I don't think people have been mentioning rapid fire range lately, I certainly haven't. They don't need it to be effective. The point of showing their potential output is to demonstrate that even in matchups against long-range armies which ignore the conscripts they still put out a lot of damage. If the opponent is trying to kill your conscripts then they will already have made their points back by letting your backline fire unhindered for those turns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:33:35
WingedCamel wrote: Most of your "mathhammer" places your unit being shot within rapid-fire range and also assumes you have done zero damage to the conscript squad. They may only be 3 ppm, but every one you kill represents anywhere from 1 to 4 shots being lost by that mob, and you absolutely DO NOT have to kill every single model in the unit to render it useless.
I don't think people have been mentioning rapid fire range lately, I certainly haven't. They don't need it to be effective. The point of showing their potential output is to demonstrate that even in matchups against long-range armies which ignore the conscripts they still put out a lot of damage. If the opponent is trying to kill your conscripts then they will already have made their points back by letting your backline fire unhindered for those turns.
"A lot" of damage = less than 4 marines a turn for 180 points.
If that's your definition of a 'lot' of damage, I can see why you would think it takes truly staggering amounts of damage to shift conscripts.
Everything makes sense now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:38:29
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
Does it seem fair that he could throw that kind of effort into a squad of conscripts, and not eliminate them? I can't think of anything else in the game that could survive that. He had to land 3 charges to do this kind of damage, right? That's actually a 14% chance. So he got super lucky. And he got super lucky on the damage rolls to kill 40 with the stealers - that's above their expected output.
I know a lot of people in this thread believe yes, it should not be possible to eliminate conscripts with your entire army in 1 turn. But there's a reason Imperial Guard is absolutely dominating right now.
Do you want a balanced game? This scenario, contrary to this thread, is NOT balanced.
Yes, 20 'stealers and a tyrannocyte are 450 points, which, at twice the cost of the Conscripts and their support, is more than fair. And 40 is only slightly above their expected output, because the expected value is 35 from the 'stealers. The other two chargers, one of which walked there and only had to make a 3 or 4" charge, were there to capitalize on the genestealers killing off a huge number of conscripts and then pile in and consolidate into my second rank. There were several things he could have done differently, too, like having literally anything other than 2 Mawlocs, that would have made a further difference in leveraging the advantage.
And, I can think of things that can absorb that kind of firepower, short of superheavies. Scarab Terminators just barely die [mostly through the mortal wounds effect, since they basically ignore the rending claws] for 250 points. A Land Raider Crusader, at 300, but just barely. Obviously, anything that's a flyer not only blocks the charge, protecting the units behind it, but also can't be damaged by the 'stealers. MSU units, or a cheap tank pushing the anti-deepstrike perimeter, can easily block the Genestealers and leave them foundering in the open for a hail of Storm Bolter fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:40:55
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, why was his Tyrant allowed to consolidate and then pile in?
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:42:31
Why are you looking for "realistic conditions" in the conscript counter, but then ignoring "realistic conditions" when mathhammering the conscripts against anything else?
Also, I can deploy the searchlight first after their searchlights, and wait to see where a character or conscript blob goes. As soon as one of them goes down, all of them go nearby, for obvious reasons.
Furthermore, the searchlight only works on enemy units within 48", so if he wants to put it first, I can effectively guarantee he doesn't have that bonus, which reduces his firepower to 3.7 wounds per turn at 24" - if he fires every turn, with orders, he can do 22.2 wounds to the Macharius in 6 shooting phases, if the Macharius just stands there and bites it without moving, retaliating, or anything. That is .2 wounds more than is required to kill it.
Also: You wanted a hard counter to conscripts in an earlier post - let me quote it for you. It doesn't specify craftworlds or anything.
Deathypoo wrote: As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
Bolded the relevant bit. I built a 401 pt list that can beat it. If you're worried about deployment, you can add a trio of acolytes to the list, making it 397 points on the nose (after dropping the searchlight which doesn't work anymore), just to ensure the Macharius gets maximum range advantage over the conscripts.
Bang. Hard counter list that wins every time.
You quoted me after I'd already started the discussion. Here's the previous quote for context:
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
Anyway, the list has two searchlights and your list has 2 units total. Placing the searchlights front and center gives them board-wide reach no matter where you place yours, and allows conscript blob to be placed after your army every time. Yes, I'm putting some restrictions on things, but I don't think they're crazy or unreasonable in context.
ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
In the Forge World Astra Militarum FAQ, Saber searchlights only work for Infantry and other Saber platforms.
I just read it and that's only for the friendly unit affected, so conscripts shooting at vehicles works fine. I'll have to edit my earlier post with War-Walkers :(
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
Surely you think that vehicle that you can wipe out for 300 points had some firepower in addition to its durability?
Conscripts pay for durability. That's all they do. Take their guns away and give them shovels and in their current state they'd still be useful (if unfluffy) as meatshields. Your units that can wipe out an enemy unit in one turn are wiping out a unit that pays for 4 things: Mobility, durability, firepower, and special rules. The conscripts are paying for durability alone.
Why are you looking for "realistic conditions" in the conscript counter, but then ignoring "realistic conditions" when mathhammering the conscripts against anything else?
Also, I can deploy the searchlight first after their searchlights, and wait to see where a character or conscript blob goes. As soon as one of them goes down, all of them go nearby, for obvious reasons.
Furthermore, the searchlight only works on enemy units within 48", so if he wants to put it first, I can effectively guarantee he doesn't have that bonus, which reduces his firepower to 3.7 wounds per turn at 24" - if he fires every turn, with orders, he can do 22.2 wounds to the Macharius in 6 shooting phases, if the Macharius just stands there and bites it without moving, retaliating, or anything. That is .2 wounds more than is required to kill it.
Also: You wanted a hard counter to conscripts in an earlier post - let me quote it for you. It doesn't specify craftworlds or anything.
Deathypoo wrote: As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
Bolded the relevant bit. I built a 401 pt list that can beat it. If you're worried about deployment, you can add a trio of acolytes to the list, making it 397 points on the nose (after dropping the searchlight which doesn't work anymore), just to ensure the Macharius gets maximum range advantage over the conscripts.
Bang. Hard counter list that wins every time.
You quoted me after I'd already started the discussion. Here's the previous quote for context:
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
Anyway, the list has two searchlights and your list has 2 units total. Placing the searchlights front and center gives them board-wide reach no matter where you place yours, and allows conscript blob to be placed after your army every time. Yes, I'm putting some restrictions on things, but I don't think they're crazy or unreasonable in context.
ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
In the Forge World Astra Militarum FAQ, Saber searchlights only work for Infantry and other Saber platforms.
I just read it and that's only for the friendly unit affected, so conscripts shooting at vehicles works fine. I'll have to edit my earlier post with War-Walkers :(
See my revisions:
Since searchlights no longer work on vehicles, make the list 397 with 3 solo acolytes.
4 drops, still fewer than the conscripts, and enough to put the big tank exactly where you want it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:47:37
Conscripts pay next to nothing for their best-in-game durability.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, why was his Tyrant allowed to consolidate and then pile in?
Genestealers kill off many conscripts. I chose not to kill the 5 closest to the Hormagaunts, to limit the effect of their 6" pile in and consolidate.
"Any unit with enemies within 1", or that charged this turn, can be selected to fight."
The Tyrant, who charges, but isn't remotely near a Conscript, piles in 3". He has to end this move closer to the nearest enemy model than he started, but can move in any direction that he wants. An Infantry Squad is the closest enemy model, but he only has to end up closer to them than he started, so he moves towards the tank. He's now closer to the tank than the infantry, and moved a total of about half and inch closer to the infantry, so that's a legal move. His fight step happens, but he's not close enough to fight the tank or the infantry, and then he consolidates another 3". Since the tank is the new closest enemy model, he just moseys 3" forward to get within 1" of the tank.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
That tank paid for good guns. Or at least paid for supposedly good guns.
If you paid 100 points for a brick, then it should survive 300 points of attacks
However, I'll point out, a Manticore has a really good armament for 133 points. For 200 points, so does a Lascannon Predator. For 90, so does a Wyvern.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:54:40
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
That tank paid for good guns.
I mentioned that too, thanks for the brevity. The quote pyramids are getting huge.
Marmatag wrote: Conscripts pay next to nothing for their best-in-game durability.
Yes, thank you.
Also, water is wet.
They also pay next to nothing for highly effective shooting. Not best in game, but super effective. Their basic points cost is fine, but the fact that for buffs that add up to exactly one more ppm they can fire twice as often, with 50% better BS, while being immune to morale... that's what makes them OP.
If another person says something along the lines of "it's impossible to actually get the bulk of them in range with their 24" guns " I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. Half the shooty armies in 40k are apparently incapable of shooting with more than a dozen of their models in a 2000 point game.
Unit1126PLL wrote: "A lot" of damage = less than 4 marines a turn for 180 points.
361 pts of conscripts kill 18.5 ork boyz per turn. 400 pts for 4 razorbacks with twin AC kill 21.33 ork boyz per turn.
How are 120.3 conscripts killing 18.5 orc boys? And why is there 1/3rd of a conscript?
I get 11.14 ork boys dead from 120.33 conscripts, not 18.5.
The post chain that you quoted was including orders, since that's what WingedCamel was claiming to be balanced. It's the same package of conscripts+support that has been referred to earlier.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:59:33
I wouldn't try arguing these points, honestly. These guys are fighting tooth and nail to convince people that Guard isn't totally OP in this edition. It's the same as people arguing that everyone has a counter to the Wraithknight in 7th. Just use player skill, guys.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Conscripts pay next to nothing for their best-in-game durability.
Yes, thank you.
Also, water is wet.
They also pay next to nothing for highly effective shooting. Not best in game, but super effective. Their basic points cost is fine, but the fact that for buffs that add up to exactly one more ppm they can fire twice as often, with 50% better BS, while being immune to morale... that's what makes them OP.
If another person says something along the lines of "it's impossible to actually get the bulk of them in range with their 24" guns " I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. Half the shooty armies in 40k are apparently incapable of shooting with more than a dozen of their models in a 2000 point game.
I've already admitted orders are OP, and we should remove the ability of conscripts to receive orders. I think at least 2 or 3 people have said that now. Why are orders still being included?
Unit1126PLL wrote: "A lot" of damage = less than 4 marines a turn for 180 points.
361 pts of conscripts kill 18.5 ork boyz per turn. 400 pts for 4 razorbacks with twin AC kill 21.33 ork boyz per turn.
How are 120.3 conscripts killing 18.5 orc boys? And why is there 1/3rd of a conscript?
I get 11.14 ork boys dead from 120.33 conscripts, not 18.5.
The post chain that you quoted was including orders, since that's what WingedCamel was claiming to be balanced. It's the same package of conscripts+support that has been referred to earlier.
Ah, I see. Yes, with orders, conscripts have excellent shooting. So take away Orders. Boom. No further nerfs needed. I think I mentioned that pages ago; I know Katherine certainly did.
Marmatag wrote:I wouldn't try arguing these points, honestly. These guys are fighting tooth and nail to convince people that Guard isn't totally OP in this edition. It's the same as people arguing that everyone has a counter to the Wraithknight in 7th. Just use player skill, guys.
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
Surely you think that vehicle that you can wipe out for 300 points had some firepower in addition to its durability?
Conscripts pay for durability. That's all they do. Take their guns away and give them shovels and in their current state they'd still be useful (if unfluffy) as meatshields. Your units that can wipe out an enemy unit in one turn are wiping out a unit that pays for 4 things: Mobility, durability, firepower, and special rules. The conscripts are paying for durability alone.
Again, no they aren't. Even ignoring orders, 50 lasguns isn't negligible fire power. After all some might be out of range of any targetable unit, but some should be in rapid fire range. With split fire, even a dispersed unit should be able to target something. It's not a huge amount of damage, but it isn't nothing. If you want it be literally nothing and only pay for durability that's fine. But that's not what they currently are, even ignoring orders that's not what they are.
Also, it's worth noting that conscripts aren't paying for their durability. We can in fact pinpoint exactly where they aren't: they only pay for leadership
4, yet a commissar has the same effect on them as the leadership 6/7 normal guard. Which is why they shouldn't work quite so well with commissars, as far as many of us are concerned.
It's the same issue as scions paying guard prices for plasma weapons, despite having the BS of space marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 18:07:59
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
Surely you think that vehicle that you can wipe out for 300 points had some firepower in addition to its durability?
Conscripts pay for durability. That's all they do. Take their guns away and give them shovels and in their current state they'd still be useful (if unfluffy) as meatshields. Your units that can wipe out an enemy unit in one turn are wiping out a unit that pays for 4 things: Mobility, durability, firepower, and special rules. The conscripts are paying for durability alone.
Again, no they aren't. Even ignoring orders, 50 lasguns isn't negligible fire power. After all some might be out of range of any targetable unit, but some should be in rapid fire range. With split fire, even a dispersed unit should be able to target something. It's not a huge amount of damage, but it isn't nothing. If you want it be literally nothing and only pay for durability that's fine. But that's not what they currently are, even ignoring orders that's not what they are.
Also, it's worth noting that conscripts aren't paying for their durability. We can in fact pinpoint exactly where they aren't: they only pay for leadership
4, yet a commissar has the same effect on them as the leadership 6/7 normal guard. Which is why they shouldn't work quite so well with commissars, as far as many of us are concerned.
It's the same issue as scions paying guard prices for plasma weapons, despite having the BS of space marines.
How many points per model should a lasgun cost? After all, as you say, it's not nothing. 1PPM? 2?
A Commissar's entire function is to increase their leadership, that's his job... and as Katherine demonstrated with math earlier (I feel like I am repeating myself for some reason) with the Commissar's points cost taken into account they're about on par with tactical marines for durability-per-point. Isn't that balance?
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
I just don't think the problem is conscripts.
Yeah, I don't recall if it was here or elsewhere, but I pointed out scionspam being what I thought was honestly a bigger problem than conscripts. I also cited fixes for conscripts that are reasonable, fluffy, and fixed the firepower issue.
And my only real dog in this fight is all the horrible ideas that have come out of this thread that cripple everything else in the army in the name of trying to "fix" conscripts. God forbid that GW intern that writes the FAQs happens to thumb through these threads and randomly picks the solution that makes commissars hurt a squad more than they help it.
Marmatag wrote: I wouldn't try arguing these points, honestly. These guys are fighting tooth and nail to convince people that Guard isn't totally OP in this edition. It's the same as people arguing that everyone has a counter to the Wraithknight in 7th. Just use player skill, guys.
Guard is totally OP.
I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm just 100% certain it's not conscripts.
Here are what's OP:
Stormtroopers of all types
Vultures
Elysians
Sabre Searchlights
Baneblades of all types
Mortar Teams
First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! [Seriously, why. It was already the best order. Now it might as well be the only order, it's just that much head-and-shoulders above the rest.]
Vendettas
Valkyries
Skyshield Landing Pads paired with the former
Gunnery Sergeant Harker
30 point HQ's that know First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! automatically twice.
Astropaths
Knight Commander Pask, depending on his tank
Did I mention Stormtroopers and Vultures?
Also, the ability to farm more command points than anyone in the world could know what to deal with, and not make sacrifices.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 18:19:16
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
