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SilverAlien wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Most of your firepower is mobile, but in particular russes (particularly with tank commanders) have both mobility and can fire on the move with reduced penalties. The taurox carrying around some scions works as well. You can deepstrike scions between your tank and the enemy after the tank falls back, depending on which tank and how wounded it is. Then rapid fire plasma. Or use drop troops with flamers. Rough riders are a good option as well, though less reliable with deepstrike.Your flyer is solid, and the flyer wing means it's pretty trivial to mix and match. You've even got ranged firepower that doesn't roll over and die when something is in melee, like your various super heavies who can keep fighting. Or run more infantry that can fall back and shoot, and less points on the static guns.

Seriously, so many other things you can do.

The only argument for this is that you can't have everything in an army.

Try and build a guard list. I was trying to do it earlier looking at the 1500 Eldar list posted a few pages back.

As I see it you go with a Battalion and a Spearhead detachment.
2 Company Commanders, two commissars, two Primaris Psykers.
3 Squads of 150 conscripts.
2 Wyverns, 2 Manticores.

This is if anything possibly overdoing it with the conscripts - but good luck getting through them.

Then you have just under 400 points left and I wasn't sure where to go. Two command squads with plasma in a transport (or in this list possibly melta). At least three groups of three Heavy weapon squads with mortars would seem good too (the only problem with mortar squads is that they are so cheap they start filling out your detachments).
I have a soft spot for hellhounds and all the variants but I think that might typically be hope over experience.

Anyway - I don't really want to math out the entire engagement but I don't see how you don't demolish the Eldar with this list. Killing the wave serpents will be a challenge without packing some heavier guns (serpent shield makes 2 damage very inefficient) - but if four of them are just popping one of the artillery pieces a turn (or a taurox/hellhound) it probably doesn't matter that much. I feel you have a chance to kill everything else by the end of your turn 2 and they will drop eventually while you just move up onto the objectives.

 daedalus wrote:

To be fair to our "melee options", I need to mathhammer the ogryn variants. I expect they're going to be severely lacking for screening purposes even compared to infantry squads, and rough riders are definitely ineffective for those purposes, and not going to be taken seriously by anyone until GW starts producing a model for them, because we all knows what happens to stuff that doesn't have an active model produced for it.

Extremely lacking. Anything with multiple wounds in the 2-3 range is nowhere near as durable as it seems because of the prevalence of 2 or D3 damage weapons combined with their end-price limiting their squad size.

I'm of the opinion, despite really hating how much attention marines get, that units like Terminators are way overpriced at the moment because their multi-wounds just aren't that valuable. Of course this goes for other armies that favor multi-wound models as well, like Tau.

Conversely, armies like Tyranids don't have this problem because their units tend to jump from 1 wpm to 8+ with only a few exceptions that, in the case of nids at least, are usually fairly cheap. The only real exception I can think of off the top of my head is warriors at 3 wpm, and I wouldn't take them either outside of a game of Shadow War.

IMO, the more expensive heavy infantry units that are sitting at 2 wounds, need to be bumped up to 3-5 if they want to keep their current points values, just because of how weak that second wound is with 8th edition firepower.

This is why conscripts are so powerful. They're cheap wounds. Very, very, very cheap wounds, with none of the benefits that push up the cost of other units whose selling point is largely their wound total, like Ogryns.

I think a Banehammer would provide a good complement to the Conscripts. With 4 lascannons it comes out to 504 points, correct me if I'm wrong. Let us go cheap on Conscripts, only a 100 with 2 Commissar and 1 Commanders. 896 points so far. Toss in some Manticores for that focused damage, add 250. Maybe 2 Wyverns because you know they're still pretty good with that shred.

You got about a 150 points to play with at this point, do you want Anti-Inf or Anti-Armor? Probably Armor because you got 100 lasguns already. So toss in 6 HWT models w/ Lascannons. Or drop a Commissar and some of those Heavy weapon teams and take Yarrick for rerolls of 1 for the tanks. I dunno where Yarrick ends up on the scale of how good he is, but it frees up an order for the conscripts so now they're re-rolling those 1's of FRFSRF.

So 1500 there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh damn this thread advanced pretty far over the day didn't notice. This was in response to that Eldar 1500 force. Wasn't trying to tailor, just making what I think is a pretty solid list.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Extremely lacking. Anything with multiple wounds in the 2-3 range is nowhere near as durable as it seems because of the prevalence of 2 or D3 damage weapons combined with their end-price limiting their squad size.

I'm of the opinion, despite really hating how much attention marines get, that units like Terminators are way overpriced at the moment because their multi-wounds just aren't that valuable. Of course this goes for other armies that favor multi-wound models as well, like Tau.

Conversely, armies like Tyranids don't have this problem because their units tend to jump from 1 wpm to 8+ with only a few exceptions that, in the case of nids at least, are usually fairly cheap. The only real exception I can think of off the top of my head is warriors at 3 wpm, and I wouldn't take them either outside of a game of Shadow War.

IMO, the more expensive heavy infantry units that are sitting at 2 wounds, need to be bumped up to 3-5 if they want to keep their current points values, just because of how weak that second wound is with 8th edition firepower.

This is why conscripts are so powerful. They're cheap wounds. Very, very, very cheap wounds, with none of the benefits that push up the cost of other units whose selling point is largely their wound total, like Ogryns.

Yes, it's quite the contrast to look at what level of pts efficiency you can get with the optimal answers to other targets. Two-wound models tend to be some of the cheapest targets to kill. The now infamous plasma scion command squads can demolish terminators. Even with the 8 pts discount that regular terminators have received in the SM codex you are still looking at 40 pts models. If you include the price of the tempestor prime the scions will cost about 104 pts, but the squad itself is 64 pts. The turn they drop they kill an average of three terminators worth 120 pts.

Even something as mundane as a squad of 3 heavy weapons teams equipped with heavy bolters, costing 36 pts, is killing half a terminator each turn.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

To be fair to our "melee options", I need to mathhammer the ogryn variants. I expect they're going to be severely lacking for screening purposes even compared to infantry squads, and rough riders are definitely ineffective for those purposes, and not going to be taken seriously by anyone until GW starts producing a model for them, because we all knows what happens to stuff that doesn't have an active model produced for it.

Extremely lacking. Anything with multiple wounds in the 2-3 range is nowhere near as durable as it seems because of the prevalence of 2 or D3 damage weapons combined with their end-price limiting their squad size.

I'm of the opinion, despite really hating how much attention marines get, that units like Terminators are way overpriced at the moment because their multi-wounds just aren't that valuable. Of course this goes for other armies that favor multi-wound models as well, like Tau.

Conversely, armies like Tyranids don't have this problem because their units tend to jump from 1 wpm to 8+ with only a few exceptions that, in the case of nids at least, are usually fairly cheap. The only real exception I can think of off the top of my head is warriors at 3 wpm, and I wouldn't take them either outside of a game of Shadow War.

IMO, the more expensive heavy infantry units that are sitting at 2 wounds, need to be bumped up to 3-5 if they want to keep their current points values, just because of how weak that second wound is with 8th edition firepower.

This is why conscripts are so powerful. They're cheap wounds. Very, very, very cheap wounds, with none of the benefits that push up the cost of other units whose selling point is largely their wound total, like Ogryns.

This indeed. I was super keen on my sanguinary guard when the rules came out, and then they got put down by pred autocannons, overcharged plasma, grav, avenger gatlings, cron destroyers etc etc. Right back on the shelf they went.

SilverAlien wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
The guard lack mobility more than anything. People think they're supposed to be fragile, but really, mobility is what has always been their biggest weakness. There's not really any mobile firepower, except for valkyries and hellhounds, and only one of those would I really feel right using the word "firepower" to describe. The only thing that can be "deepstrike ready to bail your tanks out" is rough riders, and they don't have a model right now, and can only come in from deepstrike 7" from a table edge, and then they still have nothing helping them get into melee. The only flyer we have is the Valkyrie which, putting it kindly, isn't that good. You could go out to FW and get some interesting options, but then the mention of FW triggers quite a few people, including several here on the "conscripts go away!" side of things, so THAT'S not an option.

I mean, I can't honestly figure out what specifically you're recommending here with what we have available.

Most of your firepower is mobile, but in particular russes (particularly with tank commanders) have both mobility and can fire on the move with reduced penalties. The taurox carrying around some scions works as well. You can deepstrike scions between your tank and the enemy after the tank falls back, depending on which tank and how wounded it is. Then rapid fire plasma. Or use drop troops with flamers. Rough riders are a good option as well, though less reliable with deepstrike.Your flyer is solid, and the flyer wing means it's pretty trivial to mix and match. You've even got ranged firepower that doesn't roll over and die when something is in melee, like your various super heavies who can keep fighting. Or run more infantry that can fall back and shoot, and less points on the static guns.

Seriously, so many other things you can do.

Clearly you don't play guard, because Russes are hardly mobile. They're not mobile enough to get away from a unit that charged them. 10" when the enemy was in base to base means they need a 4" charge (for most units) to keep it from shooting again. And the Russ is less mobile than, say, a Hammerhead, because at least a Hammerhead can shoot when it falls back. If you mean the Russes should run away before melee gets to them... where do you want them to go? Off the board? Most Russes I see are deployed pretty far away from the enemy as it stands and could still be turn-1 charged in many cases without a conscript line.

The Taurox carrying some Scions doesn't work 'well' it works adequately. Scions want to deepstrike, not ride around in a transport more flimsy than a Rhino and with less firepower than a Razorback. Rough Riders are awful - they have the same durability as conscripts for 10PPM, and all you get is better manuverability and also better close combat if you can actually survive the bulletstorm. Seriously, a tactical squad will wipe out a rough rider squad pretty reliably. Don't say "rough riders can protect our tanks from melee" because all they can do is get gunned down so the assault units can hit the tanks behind them.

[sarcasm]Yes, encourage us to deep strike more scions, spam flyers, and spam superheavies. That'll definitely make everything better and no one will ever think Guard are unfun to play against again. [/sarcasm]

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because that's too many shots for a 150 pt unit

No, it's really not.

It's a unit purpose-made to absorb fire through taking tons of damage. And even its ability to absorb damage can be crippled by playing smart.

And again, there's no need to obsess over being able to wipe out every single unit in a single turn.

I respectfully disagree. And read my above post more carefully. I can't wipe them over an entire game when they are in context. I don't mind them being an excellent bullet sponge, but the whole package needs to cost more or be less effective at tanking damage.

" And even its ability to absorb damage can be crippled by playing smart. "

I don't see how.

If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.

 Melissia wrote:
If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.

This, basically.

Guardsmen are 1pt more. Anyone that brings 150 conscripts and 3 LRBTs can bring 150 guardsmen and 2 LRBTs, and have more 33% firepower to boot with the BS4+. If you can't wipe out 150 conscripts in 3 squads over the course of the game, how could you possibly hope to wipe out 150 guardsmen in 15 squads when overkill starts adding inefficiency to your shooting?

 Melissia wrote:
If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.

It's more complicated than that. IG have a number of priority targets, and conscripts aren't a problem... until they are. I just don't have the resources to dedicated that incredible number of shots or melee attacks. Especially as my army dwindles over the course of the game. The amount of resources we are talking here is incredible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.

This, basically.

Guardsmen are 1pt more. Anyone that brings 150 conscripts and 3 LRBTs can bring 150 guardsmen and 2 LRBTs, and have more 33% firepower to boot with the BS4+. If you can't wipe out 150 conscripts in 3 squads over the course of the game, how could you possibly hope to wipe out 150 guardsmen in 15 squads when overkill starts adding inefficiency to your shooting?

I probably can't do that, either. The stormraven crutch was a crutch for a reason. Low cost wounds rule 8th ed at the moment. Conscripts and guardsmen are likely undercosted with the new wounding scale and armor scale.

Marmatag wrote:

I'd settle for a change that required guard players to actually use tactics, rather than flopping their models on the table and automatically winning against anything that isn't top-tier, which is what is happening now.

I don't care about anything that happened in a previous edition, to be honest, this is supposed to be the balanced edition, but currently imperial guard is totally broken.

Two can play at that game. Do you think it really takes any more tactics to deep-strike your entire damn army and blow everything up without having to suffer retaliation? Don't tell me null [or half-null] deepstrike alpha strike, whether ranged or CQC based, actually requires more tactics than a gunline. At least I have to interact with the terrain on the board.

I'm using tactics and strategy in my gunline. I've built my list to take maximum advantage of the way units interact with each other, with the terrain, and with the probably enemy composition. I've brought units that are defensive in nature and units that are offensive in nature, and use them together in unison to increase each other's power. I have to carefully consider the position of tanks and guns to ensure that I have optimal fields of fire, and to encourage my foe to move into arranged killzones and crossfires, interacting with the positioning of terrain to ensure I have the maximum defensive benefits and ensure the enemy has the least ability to enhance his attack. I close areas to deepstrikers with screening units, and I open others, to ensure the enemy is right where I want him.


I'd settle for anything that makes Space Marine players actually have to think to play the game too. Thank the Emperor drop pods are now appropriately expensive.

Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.

I just don't think the problem is conscripts.

Okay, that's fair. I apologize, honestly I haven't read the entire thread.

I'll just go back to saying I trust GW to balance it out based on what they did with Raven Spam.

I hope you guys can appreciate how frustrating it is, with an assault army, to *never* make it to the tanks. Ever. You'd think that at least every now and then i'd get a tank in melee before my force was entirely crippled.

Pardon the snarkiness, but no, I can't.

You clearly can't understand how frustrating it is to be charged on turn 1 by the entire damn enemy army without having a thing to say about it. I want to actually be able to do something other than take my models off the board during the game.


It took about 25%-30% of the Tyranid Army to kill about 50% of my army by cost. It's 50% of my army because literally a third of it was a Shadowsword that didn't die, and can ignore the fact that it's in melee. When it comes down to it, the game was won because my big tank is immune to melee combat. I brought an OP unit and leaned on it to carry the game, but it wasn't Conscripts.

By the by. I think I've cracked it.

What are the problems with Conscripts?

1 - They magnify the power of Orders beyond what is expected.
2 - It takes forever to kill them.
3 - Related to 2, the presence of a Commissar makes them unbudgeable.
4 - Taking 400 a game is insane.

Proposed soultions have included a point increase from 3 to 4, which renders them useless, or tricky special case rules with morale, orders, etc, that get kludge.

8th is about simplicity.

And there's a simple solution.

Introducing The Wakshaani Compromise!

*********************************************************************

INDEX: IMPERIUM 2
Conscripts (Page 18) change the following:
"Power 3" with "Power 2"
REPLACE
"This unit contains 20 Conscripts. It can include up to 10 additional Conscripts (Power Rating +1, up to 20 additional Conscripts (Power Level +2), or 30 additional Conscripts (+3 PL)" with "This unit contains 10 Conscripts."

Astra Militarum Points Value
Models per unit (Page 142)
REPLACE "20-50" with "10"

**********************************************************************

(Space provided to copy, paste, and print for your own use.)

This introduces no new rules. It changes no point costs. It allows for Orders to work properly. It allows the current Commissar "Summary Execution" rule to function as intended, BUT, it increases the number of Conscripts that will die to keep them in the field by 2-5 per 50 men without changing the effect on any other unit in the Codex. It allows for impressive levels of spam (120 per detatchment!) put puts a tax on it (Filling out Detachments) that keep it from being overwhelming ... 180 conscripts is usually the most you'd see and, ordinarily, less than that. It makes them somewhat harder to use in that they *desperately* need to stay near command models to function without rendering them useless via special rules.

It's simple, elegant, and effective.

The Wakshaani Compromise.

What do you think, sirs?

That's an utterly nonsense change. Basically saying "get rid of conscripts entirely".

You know what? I get it. You're scared of IG players using conscripts. That's fine. So you want to take away conscripts. Well, in exchange, I'll nominate one unit you like to use, and say you can't use it any more.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna be sitting here with my sub-par scouts and terminators army not fearing the use of conscripts at all.

I'd be fine with that, actually. I'm very tired of overpowered units.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd be fine with that, actually. I'm very tired of overpowered units.

Okay. Let's get rid of sternguard and vanguard veterans while we're at it. You said you hated overpowered units after all. Let's get rid of them. Stern- or Vanguard veterans can no longer take any special gear. Whee! Making haphazard changes without thinking of the consequences is fun!

Screw it, I'm out.

 Melissia wrote:
That's an utterly nonsense change. Basically saying "get rid of conscripts entirely".

You know what? I get it. You're scared of IG players using conscripts. That's fine. So you want to take away conscripts. Well, in exchange, I'll nominate one unit you like to use, and say you can't use it any more.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna be sitting here with my sub-par scouts and terminators army not fearing the use of conscripts at all.

I propose, in exchange, making the movement phase the last phase in the turn, not the first.


Now that would make tactical maneuver matter!

Wakshaani wrote:

What do you think, sirs?

I'll be honest; you're pretty goddamned close.

The fundamental problem that still remains is that there's still no manifestation of the "combined squads" rule that we've had for roughly 10 years. Conscripts was the last vestige of some version of it. Losing it on infantry means that my power weapon squads have become even more lackluster than they were in 6th/7th, but that's not something to balance now because I knew what I was getting into and you saw how I was dressed.

Anyway, the fundamental problem is that consolidation still works in immense favor against the conscripts even in this situation. I'd have to try some simulations to be sure, but I think not only do you compromise their orders, you're also making them more profoundly flimsier than you think you are. Casualties increase at least by a factor of five, and I want to talk to the guys I play with who are probably smarter than I am to know if it gets worse than that.

Other than that, it does strange things. They can enter vehicles, thus they provide cheap manpower for chimera lasgun arrays. I literally have no idea what that does to the game, but you just suggested it. Uh... You shut down 60% of the orders. I'm totes okay with that. I'm trying to figure out more things.

Melissia, can you comment further? I genuinely think there's a resolution that can be had, beyond the "let's make people make platoons" again. I want to think this is the right track, but I feel like something is off.

Since you asked.... my solution is to simply make conscripts, and conscripts alone, less effective at synergy with IG characters.

One or both of these would be enough without touching anything else.

-- Untrained: When a Conscript squad is given an order, roll a d6, on a 5+ (or 4+) the order, while still used up, has no effect due to poor training on the conscripts' parts.

-- Decimation: When a Conscript squad benefits from / is under the effect of the Commissar's Summary Execution ability, roll 1d6 to determine the number of conscripts slain, even if the resulting number is higher than the number that you would have lost due to the failed morale test.

There is no need to touch the number of conscripts, their statline, or to change it so these characters no longer benefit non-conscripts as much as well.

I'd be willing to try that. And strip their armor.

There's no reason to strip their armor. Their armor is fine.

edit: Screw it, now that I've responded to daedelus' question, I'm out. There is absolutely nothing more of value that can be added to this thread.

Hooray for stomping off. I truly don't believe 3 pt models should have 5+ saves. I don't understand why you are defending this unit so vehemently.

You'll find out the hard way with your scout/terminator list that you basically have zero chance.

Martel732 wrote:
Hooray for stomping off. I truly don't believe 3 pt models should have 5+ saves. I don't understand why are defending this unit so vehemently.

You'll find out the hard way with your scout/terminator list that you basically have zero chance.

Because everyone defending this plays guard.

It must be fun putting your army on the table, moving basically nothing, and tabling all of your opponents.

Brimstone horrors are a huge problem too, people just aren't wizened up to it yet.

I hate the fact that the have not list players learned nothing from 7th. I don't defend 3rd ed BA as a fair list, as it was only vulnerable to a few Xeno builds at the end of 3rd.

Nothing should surprise me after all the "riptides are fine!" threads in 7th.

3 point models shouldn't have 5+ saves; it was the first goddamn thing I said this whole thread.

Also in regards to drop pods Katherine, they're honestly probably overstatted AND overcosted now in regards to their purpose. Even with their 10 point reduction I don't think we will see them in competitive lists again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if we're complaining about any ONE specific SM unit, I fully expect SM Bike lists to run rampant again with the 6 point drop they're receiving.

So...the current consensus seems to be to remove their orders, remove their armor, and make them suffer more heavily from morale? What exactly would be the point of taking a screening unit that just immediately evaporates? Any one of those should be enough to fix the issue, though I doubt the armor one will be used, considering all guardsmen use the same model.

The problem is the scaling, not the stat line. Fix the scaling via either removing orders entirely, making Commissars hurt them more to stop morale (or a lesser mix of these two), or limiting their squad size. Make them size 10-30, and the scaling will be better. Make them size 10-30 and only pass orders on a 4+ and they should be fine.

Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.

Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Clearly you don't play guard, because Russes are hardly mobile. They're not mobile enough to get away from a unit that charged them. 10" when the enemy was in base to base means they need a 4" charge (for most units) to keep it from shooting again. And the Russ is less mobile than, say, a Hammerhead, because at least a Hammerhead can shoot when it falls back. If you mean the Russes should run away before melee gets to them... where do you want them to go? Off the board? Most Russes I see are deployed pretty far away from the enemy as it stands and could still be turn-1 charged in many cases without a conscript line.

The Taurox carrying some Scions doesn't work 'well' it works adequately. Scions want to deepstrike, not ride around in a transport more flimsy than a Rhino and with less firepower than a Razorback. Rough Riders are awful - they have the same durability as conscripts for 10PPM, and all you get is better manuverability and also better close combat if you can actually survive the bulletstorm. Seriously, a tactical squad will wipe out a rough rider squad pretty reliably. Don't say "rough riders can protect our tanks from melee" because all they can do is get gunned down so the assault units can hit the tanks behind them.

[sarcasm]Yes, encourage us to deep strike more scions, spam flyers, and spam superheavies. That'll definitely make everything better and no one will ever think Guard are unfun to play against again. [/sarcasm]

Yes, I think you should move the Russ away before it gets charged. Look for an opening or make one. Don't depend on the screen to last forever. 10" movement gives you some options.

How are they constantly getting turn one charges? Deepstriking and charge boosts? Use a screen, but don't depend on it to last forever. Character abilities? Hey, maybe you could try taking snipers since you still have the best ones per point. Be a nice change guard has to do the same thing they force every other army to do.

Wow yeah maybe you'd have to actually try and get the charge and not just sit in place. How awful.

Less firepower than a razorback? Dunno, two autocannons and a missle launcher that fires twice per turn is pretty great for anti tank. Or a gatling cannon and two hot shot volley guns for infantry.

Seriously, you have options, you just don't want to use them because sitting in a corner is way easier.

 Quickjager wrote:
Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.

Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.

That would be fine too, I just keep seeing proposals of having the Commissar kill more members of the squad to keep it in line, remove orders, AND reduce their stat lines and that just veers to the side of "why would I take this unit?" I don't play enough to play test each of these scenarios, but wouldn't it be better if they received a little nudge, then checked at that point, and then down the line maybe nudged again to fine tune the unit?

kurhanik wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.

Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.

That would be fine too, I just keep seeing proposals of having the Commissar kill more members of the squad to keep it in line, remove orders, AND reduce their stat lines and that just veers to the side of "why would I take this unit?" I don't play enough to play test each of these scenarios, but wouldn't it be better if they received a little nudge, then checked at that point, and then down the line maybe nudged again to fine tune the unit?

I don't think anyone thinks all those should apply. Even me and I'm one of the grumpier people in this thread.

I think they NEED to stay at 3 ppm or they lose flexibility. I think that offensively they are fine without orders, I also PERSONALLY don't think much of any of the orders.

Maybe giving them access to the orders that involve them on screening or meleeing like the blob they are would be more appropriate. But I do think 6+ armor would be the most appropriate, because it hits a sweet spot where AP - weapons become more effective, but the specialized assault or shooting weapons still lose out on point efficiency.