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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, duh.

I am entirely against making them easier to kill, for the precise reason that Space Marines are only having problems with them because they want us, IG players, to just roll over and die in the face of their genetically-engineered awesomeness. [Sorry for the hyperbole.]

I mean... again I'm not evens ure who you are directing this at. The only marines I play are CSM and guard have been able to kick our ass for as long as I've been playing.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And, since I can mathematically prove that, for their cost, they're not too hard to kill compared to Space Marines, I'm not inclined to give ground to that demand. In addition, since the "in a vacuum" scenario generally favors the Conscripts over the Marines, I'm really not inclined to give ground

No, you've proven space marines in cover vs normal conscripts with a commissar buffing a single unit. Which is a bit of an apples to oranges statement when the thing you use conscripts for, screening, would mean they rarely benefit from cover irregardless of unit size etc.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Finally, I see the resistance to their survivability as SM players being upset that IG players want to play in the sandbox a different way from the way SM players play. At least the way I see it, I'm hearing "I find playing against you un-fun because you sit over there and shoot at me". Well, I also find it equally un-fun when a half-dozen Drop-Pods/Tyrannocytes drop from the sky and crap out stuff that begins methodically demolishing my battle line before I even get to fire a shot. And, of course, Conscripts aren't beating Stormtrooper Drop or Guilliman and Razorbacks in competitive play, so there's that.

Well... they find it unfun because you are barely playing the game at that point. What exactly are you doing from turn one onwards? Picking the optimal targets and rolling the die is the sum total of your contribution to the army. Meanwhile, I'm trying desperately to find an angle on your commissar, trying to have my anti infantry blow a hole in your screen, etc. It just feels one side is putting in a lot more effort than the other for no good reason and many lists flat out can't win regardless of player input.

A tactic that is, and I mean this with no offense, so mindlessly simple should have really obvious glaring weaknesses to exploit. There should be lists that you just won't win against, that are an absolute uphill battle for you. Because there are many lists that will struggle immensely against yours. I've yet to see such a counter list presented though. Even your examples of hard fought battles, like the tyranid battle, you clearly had the upper hand throughout the entire game due to list composition alone.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, duh.

I am entirely against making them easier to kill, for the precise reason that Space Marines are only having problems with them because they want us, IG players, to just roll over and die in the face of their genetically-engineered awesomeness. [Sorry for the hyperbole.]

I mean... again I'm not evens ure who you are directing this at. The only marines I play are CSM and guard have been able to kick our ass for as long as I've been playing.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And, since I can mathematically prove that, for their cost, they're not too hard to kill compared to Space Marines, I'm not inclined to give ground to that demand. In addition, since the "in a vacuum" scenario generally favors the Conscripts over the Marines, I'm really not inclined to give ground

No, you've proven space marines in cover vs normal conscripts with a commissar buffing a single unit. Which is a bit of an apples to oranges statement when the thing you use conscripts for, screening, would mean they rarely benefit from cover irregardless of unit size etc.

Huh? I didn't include cover at all for Space Marines. The numbers I provided were basically the units shooting at a Space Marine dummy in a empty field.


You're also probably playing super fluffy if the Guard are kicking your asses as CSM. I mean, in the fluff, nothing should stand up to the Guard, much less the wretched traitors, who used to be proud space marines but are now listless, mindless, decrepit, and crazed hulks incapable of advanced tactics and with outdated and defunct weaponry and armor!

CSM last edition, once traitor legions dropped, were a tough foe. Even before traitor legions, they were rough to face. Summon Daemons to win!

For this edition, trying using Scarab Terminators, Rubrics, Magnus, Berzerkers, and Skarbrand. Make sure to have ranged antitank support, LaserPreds are good, and transport options for your core melee/warpflamer troops. Warp Talons strike me as too expensive for what they do, and too expensive to commit to them, considering Berzerkers in a Rhino can probably get most of their troops to the frontline by turn 2. Remember that not all your guys will make it, because if all your guys could, that really wouldn't be fair, would it? It takes approximately 400 points of Manticore to take out a Rhino, which, if you went first, already did it's job.

Speaking of the difficulty of killing Conscripts, there's something to point out. A Rhino is 70 points. It takes 3 Manticores, at 399 points to take it out in 1 turn. It also take 237 points of Dominions and their Immolator to take it out in one turn. It also takes a 512 point Shadowsword, or a 260 point Pask Battle Tank, to blow it up in 1 turn. 3x to 4x cost of unit to remove in 1 turn is extremely fair.

This is what I mean by the supposed "problem" being players being upset by the fact that we don't just roll over and die for them. Not only is the Rhino a vehicle that only needs to survive one turn, and will probably have done its job before we get to even have a crack at killing it, it easily takes 4 times its cost for us to destroy. Why should our tough unit meant to protect our killy things for a turn be killiable for equal or only twice it's cost?

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Finally, I see the resistance to their survivability as SM players being upset that IG players want to play in the sandbox a different way from the way SM players play. At least the way I see it, I'm hearing "I find playing against you un-fun because you sit over there and shoot at me". Well, I also find it equally un-fun when a half-dozen Drop-Pods/Tyrannocytes drop from the sky and crap out stuff that begins methodically demolishing my battle line before I even get to fire a shot. And, of course, Conscripts aren't beating Stormtrooper Drop or Guilliman and Razorbacks in competitive play, so there's that.

Well... they find it unfun because you are barely playing the game at that point. What exactly are you doing from turn one onwards? Picking the optimal targets and rolling the die is the sum total of your contribution to the army. Meanwhile, I'm trying desperately to find an angle on your commissar, trying to have my anti infantry blow a hole in your screen, etc. It just feels one side is putting in a lot more effort than the other for no good reason and many lists flat out can't win regardless of player input.

A tactic that is, and I mean this with no offense, so mindlessly simple should have really obvious glaring weaknesses to exploit. There should be lists that you just won't win against, that are an absolute uphill battle for you. Because there are many lists that will struggle immensely against yours. I've yet to see such a counter list presented though. Even your examples of hard fought battles, like the tyranid battle, you clearly had the upper hand throughout the entire game due to list composition alone.

And how much are you playing the game if you drop off a thousand points of melee troops with 4 attacks per model that deal a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6 9" in front of my line with re-rollable charges, then just push them into contact with me, consolidate into my second rank, and repeat? As I said, two can play at that game.

You don't see it from my perspective. I'm arranging killzone, clearing lanes of fire, setting up my tanks and gun relative to terrain pieces to ensure that my fields of fire are clear, positioning disposable troops to force you to move into disadvantageous positions where your units will either overextend from their support or become trapped/slowed, spacing my units to mitigate the effects of your charges, selecting my targets to reduce your ability to kill my key units and thus preserve my advantage as long as possible as you cut your way to my tanks, etc. I'm trying hard to get you exactly where I want you.

Melee everything, especially fast melee everything, is the real definition of mindless strategy. Actually, there's one thing more mindless, and that's an entire army of Vengeance Weapons Batteries!

And there are two lists that are absolute uphill battles. Facing Sisters Immo-Dominions rush, and facing Tyranid Tyrannocyte-Genestealer/Hormagaunt drop. I know the former because I use it, and I know the latter because I've faced it twice, and both times won through rather gimmicky means relating to seizing the initiative and having a Shadowsword.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And how much are you playing the game if you drop off a thousand points of melee troops with 4 attacks per model that deal a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6 9" in front of my line with re-rollable charges, then just push them into contact with me, consolidate into my second rank, and repeat? As I said, two can play at that game.

I'm not even sure what unit you are referencing.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You don't see it from my perspective. I'm arranging killzone, clearing lanes of fire, setting up my tanks and gun relative to terrain pieces to ensure that my fields of fire are clear, positioning disposable troops to force you to move into disadvantageous positions where your units will either overextend from their support or become trapped/slowed, spacing my units to mitigate the effects of your charges, selecting my targets to reduce your ability to kill my key units and thus preserve my advantage as long as possible as you cut your way to my tanks, etc.

No offense, but that still sounds like a lot less work than trying to counter the army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And there are two lists that are absolute uphill battles. Facing Sisters Immo-Dominions rush, and facing Tyranid Tyrannocyte-Genestealer/Hormagaunt drop.

Except we've established in the former it's literally because dominions themselves have access to cheap storm bolters in mass, something other armies lack. Even that.... I mean, you'd need what 8 of them to reliably clear by the end of turn 3 (given 4 units of conscripts, assuming 3 turns of shooting for immolator and two in RF for dominions). That's almost 1400 points of spammed anti infantry, one well beyond the abilities of most armies to produce, without accounting for causalities, and even then is just barely enough to do it more often than not. We'd basically be looking at an army of nothing but dominions in immolators to reliably clear the four units of conscripts and even that's not guaranteed to sweep this list. I mean.... no. This pretty much illustrates why it isn't balanced.

I also fail to see how you could think you are at a disadvantage vs the tyranid list, considering by all accounts when you faced an enemy using that list they were performing well above average expectations and still lost, albeit fairly closely. That's... not an uphill battle.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And how much are you playing the game if you drop off a thousand points of melee troops with 4 attacks per model that deal a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6 9" in front of my line with re-rollable charges, then just push them into contact with me, consolidate into my second rank, and repeat? As I said, two can play at that game.

I'm not even sure what unit you are referencing.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You don't see it from my perspective. I'm arranging killzone, clearing lanes of fire, setting up my tanks and gun relative to terrain pieces to ensure that my fields of fire are clear, positioning disposable troops to force you to move into disadvantageous positions where your units will either overextend from their support or become trapped/slowed, spacing my units to mitigate the effects of your charges, selecting my targets to reduce your ability to kill my key units and thus preserve my advantage as long as possible as you cut your way to my tanks, etc.

No offense, but that still sounds like a lot less work than trying to counter the army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And there are two lists that are absolute uphill battles. Facing Sisters Immo-Dominions rush, and facing Tyranid Tyrannocyte-Genestealer/Hormagaunt drop.

Except we've established in the former it's literally because dominions themselves have access to cheap storm bolters in mass, something other armies lack. Even that.... I mean, you'd need what 8 of them to reliably clear by the end of turn 3 (assuming 3 turns fo shooting for immolator and two in RF for dominions). That's almost 1400 points of spammed anti infantry, one well beyond the abilities of most armies to produce. Does that really seem balanced to you?

I also fail to see how you could think you are at a disadvantage vs the tyranid list, considering by all accounts when you faced an enemy using that list they were performing well above average expectations and still lost, albeit fairly closely. That's... not an uphill battle.

Let me try another way: A Rhino is 70 points. A Rhino is a unit expressely design to provide an added layer of protection against shooting attacks for the troops inside, that I have to spend a turn killing before being able to attack the troops inside. If I use Manticores, it takes 400 points of Manticores to kill it in 1 turn. By your standard, how is that fair at all if I can't get rid of this obstacle efficiently, since if I can't kill it in 1 turn there's going to be a giant pile of Berzerkers attacking me? And that's before we consider the fact that you probably have 3 or 4 Rhinos full of Berzerkers!


The Tyranid guy made a mistake that cost the game. First off he had 2 Mawlocs, which critically underperfomed in a spectacular way. At least they soaked up some gunfire from the Shadowsword, I guess. Second, he didn't charge it with his Hive Tyrant while he had the chance, which would have allowed him to kill it. He tried to kill a Basilisk instead, which was a major mistake. I wasn't panicking, but I was on the edge of disaster all game. He was in combat with my Shadowsword on turn 3, and took 12 wounds off it then and there. That was basically my only unit left! My only other thing was an ordinary Leman Russ with 7 wounds remaining. The game was all about the Shadowsword, and it's ability to keep shooting while in melee, because my frontline and second line collapsed so fast I didn't even know what happened. It could have collapsed even faster if he had fought with his Tyrant instead of his Hormagaunts, and he'd have consolidated into the Shadowsword on turn 1! My deployment zone isn't that big!


To me, it always feels like I'm making a desperate last stand, trying to cripple what I can before I'm overwhelmed beneath a tide of claws, axes, chainswords, whatever. I look at melee rush armies, and that's where I see the "point and click" army. Melee as many units as you can, repeat until someone runs out of guys. Throw a tank or MC in to soak up overwatch. Doubly so because many melee units are effective against all targets, so there's no even considering which unit to attack the tanks with and which unit to attack the infantry with!



I have Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, and a little bit of Space Wolves a friend gave me when he quit the hobby. All of them play very differently, and have different decisions to make.

You know what? When my Tyranid-playing friend gets back from vacation in a week, I'll ask to play an army-swap game, and tell about it.

Anyway, good night. I am tired.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Let me try another way: A Rhino is 70 points. A Rhino is a unit expressely design to provide an added layer of protection against shooting attacks for the troops inside, that I have to spend a turn killing before being able to attack the troops inside. If I use Manticores, it takes 400 points of Manticores to kill it in 1 turn. By your standard, how is that fair at all if I can't get rid of this obstacle efficiently, since if I can't kill it in 1 turn there's going to be a giant pile of Berzerkers attacking me? And that's before we consider the fact that you probably have 3 or 4 Rhinos full of Berzerkers!

A few things:
1. Your conscripts don't inflict mortal wounds on the units they were protecting. Be kinda funny if they did though.
2. How exactly is 18 inch move enough to get in guaranteed charge range on an average table?
3. There is a big difference between "kill this unit before it gets the unit it is protecting in range to start dealing damage" and "kill this unit before the unit it is protecting tables you". You don't instant lose when the zerkers enter melee range. You can fall back and use other units to shoot, or use super heavies.
4. Three times it's points to kill it in a turn is a bit different than three times it's points to kill it in 2-3 turns before accounting for your own losses.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The Tyranid guy made a mistake that cost the game. First off he had 2 Mawlocs, which critically underperfomed in a spectacular way. At least they soaked up some gunfire from the Shadowsword, I guess. Second, he didn't charge it with his Hive Tyrant while he had the chance, which would have allowed him to kill it. He tried to kill a Basilisk instead, which was a major mistake. I wasn't panicking, but I was on the edge of disaster all game. He was in combat with my Shadowsword on turn 3, and took 12 wounds off it then and there. That was basically my only unit left! My only other thing was an ordinary Leman Russ with 7 wounds remaining. The game was all about the Shadowsword, and it's ability to keep shooting while in melee, because my frontline and second line collapsed so fast I didn't even know what happened. It could have collapsed even faster if he had fought with his Tyrant instead of his Hormagaunts, and he'd have consolidated into the Shadowsword on turn 1! My deployment zone isn't that big!

Which, combined with the things he did which were lucky (landing the early charge and getting really good melee performance from his genestealers collapsing the battle line early) seems to indicate this wasn't an uphill battle. This sounds far more like a fair fight, he managed to secure a critical early lead which was squandered with a few minor mistakes and one poorly performing unit. .

I'm going to keep harping on the list thing. Your army can easily destroy non tailored armies of all sorts, yet your "counter armies" are one that's literally just the best dedicated anti infantry and nothing else, followed by an army that, by your own account, doesn't sound like a counter, it sounds like an even match at worst.

Right. Second draft, taking things into account.

PL remains the same.

Conscripts are 20 man units, with no extra models addable.

SO!

Like before, but not as punishing, orders going to a 10 man unit of Guardsmen, 20 man Conscript, or 5 man Scion are about the same, you trade off some accuracy for durability, the Commissar still works but can't herd quite as many, and again, no new rules are added, just change the unit size from 20-50 to a flat 20.

Wakshaani Compromise 2.0

Huh, I just realized something and I feel rather dumb for not making the connection before, but not only does smaller size make it harder to benefit from buffs and auras, more units means another potential morale loss that previously wasn't there. Yeah, I could see that working. Could even max out at 25 just to be exactly half of what it is now.

There's a problem with only comparing the durability of conscripts vs MEQ using low strength weapons with no AP. Try comparing them when getting fired upon by S5/6 and/or AP-1 weapons. Or even the Kastellan Robots with their S6 AP-2 D1 ignoring cover. These types of weapons can make their points back no problem by killing MEQ, there is no answer with the same efficiency vs conscripts.

 Deathypoo wrote:

2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.

This points limit heavily, heavily favours the conscripts, giving them exactly their optimum stuff, but forcing other solutions at ssay 413 points to drop down to under 400, losing efficiency in an unrealistic way, because games aren't played at this pointage. I'll give it a go though.

Warlock with Conceal, 1 Squad of Rangers, 1 Squad of Swooping hawks (exarch with Sunrifle), 1 Nightwing. 391 pts.


Eldar Turn 1

Searchlights Destroyed by Nightwing, Commisar Wounded. Warlock casts Conceal.

Guard Turn 1

Move towards Concelaed Rangers

Eldar Turn 2

Commisar Killed, Hawks join Rangers and fire at long range. Nightwing fires at Conscripts. Exarch shoots different saqud to everyone else.

Concscripts lose 6 to shooting, 6 to Morale. Bigger Conscripts lose 1 to shooting, 1 to morale.

Guard Turn 2

Move towards Rangers. Only the small squad can fire. It does 1 wound to the night wing, the only target it can hit.

Eldar Turn 3

Conscripts lose 8 to shooting, 8 to morale. This squad is now down to 22 men. The big squad loses 1 to the Exarch and 1 to Morale.

Guard Turn 3

Move + advance. Still can't fire. Small sqaud could fire at the Nightwing, but would likely do nothing and just be slower in getting over to the Eldar.

Eldar Turn 3

Fall back, fire. Rangers and Warlock Advance. Small squad of Conscripts loses 12 to morale and shooting combined (Rangers can't fire). Big squad loses another 2.

Guard turn 4

Advance.

Eldar Turn 4

Rangers move forwards towards the smaller conscript squad. Hawks fall back with Warlock. the larger cosncript squad loses 14 to morale and shooting. The Rangers fire their pistols at the small squad doing 2 casualties, then charge, doing 1 more. The return attacks from 7 conscripts kill 1 ranger. In total the small conscripts lose 3 to fighting and 3 to morale.

Guard Turn 4

The Rangers are assaulted and killed.

Eldar Turn 5

The big squad loses a further 14.


At this point both squads of Conscripts are crippled and can't win, the Eldar also have the mobility to grab objectives, which the conscripts do not and are winning on kill points. The Eldar will mop up the remaining guys in T6 and 7 if the game goes on. It's possible that the Eldar needed to start falling back a turn earlier, this would not really have made much difference.

This doesn't really prove anything about conscripts, it was just a fun challenge. It would be much much easier if I could use DE and/or Ynarri. This is then over much quicker. CWE suck at this match up in particular so was hard to find the right units.

"Marines can do just fine with a stack of Razorbacks, Tacticals, and Roboute Guilliman."

There are marines other than Ultramarines. And the last stack of of razorbacks I saw got fried really badly by wave serpents. The twin assault cannon is a list tailoring choice and fails hard against enemy mech. Which the IG will also likely have.

Remember you have to deal with Manticores, Chimeras, Demolishers, sentinels, Valkryies, AND conscripts. Not just conscripts.

Interestingly another answer to conscripts is Elysian Cyclops Demolition vehicles. Drop around the conscripts then just drive up to them and explode. Each vehicle costs 40 points, and will kill about 6 conscripts from every squad in range when it explodes (range is d6") also unlikely to die to 100 rapid firing conscripts, or at the most they will kill one. Then the rest jsut drive up and pop.

Weird solution.

Nice thing is they are also very deadly against tanks, if the conscripts have been cleared another way.

Drager wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.

This points limit heavily, heavily favours the conscripts, giving them exactly their optimum stuff, but forcing other solutions at ssay 413 points to drop down to under 400, losing efficiency in an unrealistic way, because games aren't played at this pointage. I'll give it a go though.

Warlock with Conceal, 1 Squad of Rangers, 1 Squad of Swooping hawks (exarch with Sunrifle), 1 Nightwing. 391 pts.


Eldar Turn 1

Searchlights Destroyed by Nightwing, Commisar Wounded. Warlock casts Conceal.

Guard Turn 1

Move towards Concelaed Rangers

Eldar Turn 2

Commisar Killed, Hawks join Rangers and fire at long range. Nightwing fires at Conscripts. Exarch shoots different saqud to everyone else.

Concscripts lose 6 to shooting, 6 to Morale. Bigger Conscripts lose 1 to shooting, 1 to morale.

Guard Turn 2

Move towards Rangers. Only the small squad can fire. It does 1 wound to the night wing, the only target it can hit.

Eldar Turn 3

Conscripts lose 8 to shooting, 8 to morale. This squad is now down to 22 men. The big squad loses 1 to the Exarch and 1 to Morale.

Guard Turn 3

Move + advance. Still can't fire. Small sqaud could fire at the Nightwing, but would likely do nothing and just be slower in getting over to the Eldar.

Eldar Turn 3

Fall back, fire. Rangers and Warlock Advance. Small squad of Conscripts loses 12 to morale and shooting combined (Rangers can't fire). Big squad loses another 2.

Guard turn 4

Advance.

Eldar Turn 4

Rangers move forwards towards the smaller conscript squad. Hawks fall back with Warlock. the larger cosncript squad loses 14 to morale and shooting. The Rangers fire their pistols at the small squad doing 2 casualties, then charge, doing 1 more. The return attacks from 7 conscripts kill 1 ranger. In total the small conscripts lose 3 to fighting and 3 to morale.

Guard Turn 4

The Rangers are assaulted and killed.

Eldar Turn 5

The big squad loses a further 14.


At this point both squads of Conscripts are crippled and can't win, the Eldar also have the mobility to grab objectives, which the conscripts do not and are winning on kill points. The Eldar will mop up the remaining guys in T6 and 7 if the game goes on. It's possible that the Eldar needed to start falling back a turn earlier, this would not really have made much difference.

This doesn't really prove anything about conscripts, it was just a fun challenge. It would be much much easier if I could use DE and/or Ynarri. This is then over much quicker. CWE suck at this match up in particular so was hard to find the right units.

Eldar Turn 1:

There are two searchlights, and the Nightwing can only destroy one

IG Turn 1:

Kill half the rangers with searchlight to balance cloak+conceal back to 6+, and frfsrf on a conscript squad. (100 shots, 16 hit, 8 wound, 2-3 fail saves and die)
(Note on range: Commissar can stand 6" behind the back of the conscript line. rangers have 36" range. the back of the conscript line is 30" from the rangers. They can move 6" and shoot 24". The back line is therefor in range of the rangers, which means, of course, that the entire squad is in range of the rangers.)

Eldar turn 2:

Sure, let's say you get the luck and the commissar dies to the last couple rangers. I won't check your math on damage to conscripts, It looks about right.

IG turn 2:

This is the part that always blows my mind. The swooping hawks have a 24" range. The conscripts have a 24" range. How on earth do the hawks hit the conscripts and yet, according to you, they're not in range to be fired upon in return? What actually happens here is that the hawks are easily wiped by one squad while the rangers are either wiped or brought down to one model left. Then there's just a warlock left between the IG and an auto-victory (post flier FAQ - they can't hold a table)

I did see another list with 2xPhoenix that had a decent chance of beating this challenge, if you ignore the inability of fliers to hold a table. I am annoyed that I am being forced into forgeworld, but I guess that's the only way to beat forgeworld (searchlights).

You are right about one thing though, and that is that it's not fair to hold counter armies to exactly 401 points. If someone came up with something for 413 (or whatever) I wouldn't rule it out.

The Nightwing can deal 6 wounds and would take 2 out on average, but I just realised I forgot it can't split the fire on its shuriken cannon (as its twin not 2). So that changes things, but 2 Bright Lances kill one search light, the Twin Cannon gets the second down to one wound then I use the Snipers to finish the second one. Sure this slows things down a bit (have to kill the commisar a turn later), but the Eldar still win because they can't be shot. It's not range it's hit penalties.

If you are willing to include DE or possibly HArlequins or Ynarri this gets much easier.

At 427 you can have Warlock, 5 Rangers, 2 Nightwings, which wins this engagement also.

The searchlights have 48" range and wouldn't normally be within range of the snipers. But lets say you deployed forward using the rangers special and just barely got them - now the guard have at most one turn to move+advance, then on turn 2 you damage the commissar (or get crazy luck and kill him, it won't matter), then drop your hawks down and unload. The conscripts can still easily charge your rangers with one squad and frfsrf to kill your hawks with the other.

These aren't very close hypothetical situations that could be swung by a key roll or a tight inch on the battlefield. This is a one-sided slaughter in IG's favor every time.

Oh? You are not deploying the searchlights midfield?

Sorry, I thought you would be positioning them like in a normal game. I also forgot you made the board smaller than standard to advantage the searchlights. If the search lights are directly 12" behind your conscripts then my snipers still only have to be within 24" of the conscripts due to the board, if they are off to the side I still don't have to close, just move right and left. On a 4X4 board you can't back away that far, I can always be within 36" of the searchlights and out of 24" of the conscripts, I think. Might have missed an angle somewhere.

Is there not enough Los blocking terrain to hide from a searchlight? If you are deploying them back then I just won't be in LoS of them generally. this is a weird board set up that 100% advantages the guard you have going on. Also how are they frfsrf when they can't hit?

Another army: 6 Rangers, 5 Striking Scorpions, Warlock, Nightwing. Scorpions DS in and kill one searchlight, Nightwing kills the other. The conscripts can kill the scorpions, but if the searchlights are deployed back as you suggest they won't be advancing when they do.

By the way, in case you think I'm being hyperbolic in saying the hawks will just keel over dead... 5 hawks with 4+ save need to take 10 wounds, with T3 and S3 lasguns they need to take 20 hits, and with a 5+ BS (because I guess the searchlights are dead) the guards need 60 shots. That means, assuming you manage to stay out of rapid fire range, only 30 conscripts need to be alive to wipe the hawks in one turn.

Meanwhile, in close combat the rangers lose all their buffs. The 5 hp are only protected by 5+ saves, so 7.5 wounds, which means 15 hits, and that means 45 attacks. So I guess it might take them two turns, if for some reason the more heavily damaged squad is the one that charges the rangers.

 Deathypoo wrote:
By the way, in case you think I'm being hyperbolic in saying the hawks will just keel over dead... 5 hawks with 4+ save need to take 10 wounds, with T3 and S3 lasguns they need to take 20 hits, and with a 5+ BS (because I guess the searchlights are dead) the guards need 60 shots. That means, assuming you manage to stay out of rapid fire range, only 30 conscripts need to be alive to wipe the hawks in one turn.

How are the conscripts getting more than 0 hits on the hawks? -1 for Conceal, -1 for Sunrifle is -2 to hit.

 Deathypoo wrote:
Meanwhile, in close combat the rangers lose all their buffs. The 5 hp are only protected by 5+ saves, so 7.5 wounds, which means 15 hits, and that means 45 attacks. So I guess it might take them two turns, if for some reason the more heavily damaged squad is the one that charges the rangers.

In combat the rangers were a speed bump. I assumed they would get wiped in one turn.

I must admit I am doing these as back of an envelope calcs so might be missing somehting.

Drager wrote:
Oh? You are not deploying the searchlights midfield?

Sorry, I thought you would be positioning them like in a normal game. I also forgot you made the board smaller than standard to advantage the searchlights.

Is there not enough Los blocking terrain to hide from a searchlight? If you are deploying them back then I just won't be in LoS of them generally. this is a weird board set up that 100% advantages the guard you have going on. Also how are they frfsrf when they can't hit?

Another army: 6 Rangers, 5 Striking Scorpions, Warlock, Nightwing. Scorpions DS in and kill one searchlight, Nightwing kills the other. The conscripts can kill the scorpions, but if the searchlights are deployed back as you suggest they won't be advancing when they do.

If we're going to randomly drop advantageous los blocking terrain, you can't kill the commissar. An open board seems the least jinky way of dealing with it, and 4'x4' because 6'4' just invites "well my artillery shoots you for 3 turns uninterrupted while you run across 6' of table." I didn't want those answers.

Besides, that was a throw-away comment. I addressed the scenario as if you could shoot them, because again - it doesn't help you enough. I even gave you the commissar kill. It doesn't matter, it's not close no matter how many things you hand to the Eldar player.

I'm not saying frfsrf on the rangers, which I agreed they can't hit in your hypothetical, I said the rangers get charged. The frfsrf is on the hawks.

One conscript squad can kill the scorpions while the other advances toward the rangers. They can both afford to leave a tail to the officers.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Drager wrote:
Oh? You are not deploying the searchlights midfield?

Sorry, I thought you would be positioning them like in a normal game. I also forgot you made the board smaller than standard to advantage the searchlights.

Is there not enough Los blocking terrain to hide from a searchlight? If you are deploying them back then I just won't be in LoS of them generally. this is a weird board set up that 100% advantages the guard you have going on. Also how are they frfsrf when they can't hit?

Another army: 6 Rangers, 5 Striking Scorpions, Warlock, Nightwing. Scorpions DS in and kill one searchlight, Nightwing kills the other. The conscripts can kill the scorpions, but if the searchlights are deployed back as you suggest they won't be advancing when they do.

If we're going to randomly drop advantageous los blocking terrain, you can't kill the commissar. An open board seems the least jinky way of dealing with it, and 4'x4' because 6'4' just invites "well my artillery shoots you for 3 turns uninterrupted while you run across 6' of table." I didn't want those answers.

Besides, that was a throw-away comment. I addressed the scenario as if you could shoot them, because again - it doesn't help you enough. I even gave you the commissar kill. It doesn't matter, it's not close no matter how many things you hand to the Eldar player.

I'm not saying frfsrf on the rangers, which I agreed they can't hit in your hypothetical, I said the rangers get charged. The frfsrf is on the hawks.

One conscript squad can kill the scorpions while the other advances toward the rangers. They can both afford to leave a tail to the officers.

He's saying that with Conceal and the Sunrifle, the Hawks are immune to FRFSRF - nothing about the rangers.

Drager wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
By the way, in case you think I'm being hyperbolic in saying the hawks will just keel over dead... 5 hawks with 4+ save need to take 10 wounds, with T3 and S3 lasguns they need to take 20 hits, and with a 5+ BS (because I guess the searchlights are dead) the guards need 60 shots. That means, assuming you manage to stay out of rapid fire range, only 30 conscripts need to be alive to wipe the hawks in one turn.

How are the conscripts getting more than 0 hits on the hawks? -1 for Conceal, -1 for Sunrifle is -2 to hit.
.

I didn't realize the hawks were dropping on top of the rangers with a sunrifle (missed that if you said it, my bad). It's true that one squad would be unable to hit them, and the non-sunrifled squad would be at 6+. Although they'd be in rapid fire range if they're on top of the warlock/rangers, so that balances out to the same math I posted before. Hit half as often, but twice as many hits.

How are the conscripts that close? They were 24" away when the Hawks dropped (assuming the most advantage to the guard). The larger squad is the one hit with the sun rifle every time so it can't fire.

Let's change the deployment so you have the searchlights way back and assume that the Nightwing can only kill one. I'm also assuming the commisar and commander are in the middle of the blob so they can't get tagged by the Nightwing.

Let's also make this planet bowling ball as you suggest.

Let's say that this setup puts the Rangers over 30" away from the front of the squad and able to tag the commissar.

Eldar 1

The Nightwing kills one Searchlight and does 2 wounds to the other. The Rangers wound the Commissar.

Guard Turn 1

Move towards Rangers. Maybe do 1-3 wounds to the Nightwing dependant on position.

Eldar Turn 2

Dead Commisar, Hawks drop at 24". Nightwing kills the last searchlight and 5 guardsmen, then Hawks kill 2 guardsmen and the Exarch tags the other squad (the big one). Then they lose the same again to morale.

Small Conscripts: 36 Guys
Big Conscripts: 48 Guys

Guard Turn 2

Move Forwards (18" from the hawks), FRFSRF at the Hawks with the small squad (big squad can't hit). This kills 3 hawks.

Eldar Turn 3

Hawks move back to the same location as the Rangers/Warlock (now at range 21"ish). The big squad loses 2 to shooting and morale from the exarch, the small squad loses 14 to all other shooting and morale combined.

Small Conscripts: 22 Guys
Big Conscripts: 46 Guys

Guard Turn 3

Move forward again (at~15"). FRFSRF with the small squad again. Kill the last Hawk, wound the Exarch.

Eldar Turn 4

Fall back (at edge of the board now ~20") Repeat the previous turns fire

Small Conscripts: 7 Guys
Big Conscripts: 44 Guys

Guard Turn 4

Move forward. Have no effect.

Eldar Turn 5

Move left or right to increase distance, put the Rangers out front as a speed bump, moving up towards the guard. Focus fire on the big squad

Small Squad 7 guys
Big Squad 28 guys

Guard Turn 5

Rangers die


With this set up it is pretty close and not as dominating for the eldar as in my first scenario, but I am assuming no cover of any kind exists and setting up a scenario which really favours the conscripts.

Drager wrote:
How are the conscripts that close? They were 24" away when the Hawks dropped (assuming the most advantage to the guard). The larger squad is the one hit with the sun rifle every time so it can't fire.

Let's change the deployment so you have the searchlights way back and assume that the Nightwing can only kill one. I'm also assuming the commisar and commander are in the middle of the blob so they can't get tagged by the Nightwing.

Have you ever played a decent IG opponent? They will put little tails behind their conscripts - just a couple models, to keep the commissars back and yet also surrounded from all sides. Granted, I normally ignore these when mathing out how many shots they have, but it's not super-advanced tactical deployment.

Let's also make this planet bowling ball as you suggest.

Let's say that this setup puts the Rangers over 30" away from the front of the squad and able to tag the commissar.

literally impossible. Rangers have a 36" range. The commissar can be 6" behind the back of the unit (ok, minus the tail guys that I didn't think I had to specify. 6" back behind 47~48 units of the guard). That means that the ENTIRE unit (minus those 2-3), are *under* 30" away from the rangers.

Eldar 1

The Nightwing kills one Searchlight and does 2 wounds to the other. The Rangers wound the Commissar.

Guard Turn 1

Move towards Rangers. Maybe do 1-3 wounds to the Nightwing dependant on position.

If the searchlight is still up, the shoot the rangers, which they moved towards. The unit that doesn't have a searchlight to shoot with can advance forward again.

Eldar Turn 2

Dead Commisar, Hawks drop at 24". Nightwing kills the last searchlight and 5 guardsmen, then Hawks kill 2 guardsmen and the Exarch tags the other squad (the big one). Then they lose the same again to morale.

Small Conscripts: 36 Guys
Big Conscripts: 48 Guys

Do the hawks drop in on top of the warlock+rangers for conceal, or at 24"? Because those are now two very different places

Guard Turn 2

Move Forwards (18" from the hawks), FRFSRF at the Hawks with the small squad (big squad can't hit). This kills 3 hawks.

We're starting to get way off on range but whatever, let's say that the "big squad" is the one that advanced last turn, so the small squad still doesn't have rapid fire and your total is good.

Eldar Turn 3

Hawks move back to the same location as the Rangers/Warlock (now at range 21"ish). The big squad loses 2 to shooting and morale from the exarch, the small squad loses 14 to all other shooting and morale combined.

Small Conscripts: 22 Guys
Big Conscripts: 46 Guys

Or right I forgot the rangers in your scenario started by sniping a commissar outside their max range. Errr... we're too far off to even share notes now. This is the turn the guardsmen charge you in real life.

It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description on is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?

I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.

You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.

Drager wrote:
It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description of is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?

Fair enough. I imagine the guard to deploy in two tight rectangles in the center of the deployment zone, as far forward as possible. The rectangles are something like 8x6" each, so a total front 16" across and 6" deep. 2 Conscripts from either blob form a 6" tail back behind it from the rough center of each blob, which reaches to the back of the table. Beside the tip of each tail is the searchlight. The commissar and officer are between the tails, 3" from each side, just a step in front of the rear guy so nothing dropping behind them (when they move forward away from the table edge) can shoot them.

This assumes that whatever cover the rangers are being placed in is pretty much also front and center. It can pretty easily adjust to likely ranger deployment locations.

Keep in mind I've also had no problem assuming the rangers have cover and los to commissar no matter where they deploy, this whole time. I'm honestly not trying to tilt this to favor IG, I'd rather get a workable solution to my problem IRL games then win an internet argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drager wrote:

I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.

You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.

I am currently sitting on a 100% win rate against non-IG and a 100% loss-rate against IG haha... not that many games yet though.

My normal gaming tables are a little sparse on terrain, and also have the built-in hills from the GW 2x2 tiles, so los is rarely difficult. This is a very realistic scenario for me in the real world.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Drager wrote:
It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description of is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?

Fair enough. I imagine the guard to deploy in two tight rectangles in the center of the deployment zone, as far forward as possible. The rectangles are something like 8x6" each, so a total front 16" across and 6" deep. 2 Conscripts from either blob form a 6" tail back behind it from the rough center of each blob, which reaches to the back of the table. Beside the tip of each tail is the searchlight. The commissar and officer are between the tails, 3" from each side, just a step in front of the rear guy so nothing dropping behind them (when they move forward away from the table edge) can shoot them.

This assumes that whatever cover the rangers are being placed in is pretty much also front and center. It can pretty easily adjust to likely ranger deployment locations.

Keep in mind I've also had no problem assuming the rangers have cover and los to commissar no matter where they deploy, this whole time. I'm honestly not trying to tilt this to favor IG, I'd rather get a workable solution to my problem IRL games then win an internet argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drager wrote:

I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.

You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.

I am currently sitting on a 100% win rate against non-IG and a 100% loss-rate against IG haha... not that many games yet though.

My normal gaming tables are a little sparse on terrain, and also have the built-in hills from the GW 2x2 tiles, so los is rarely difficult. This is a very realistic scenario for me in the real world.

Cool. I'll work on it a bit more. I should point out I've assumed no cover for the prior scenario.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From what you have described as soon as the blobs move forward a melee deep striker could just assault the officers fairly easily, without assaulting the guardsmen. Also with the tail that far apart a plane can easily land so that it is closest to the commissar and not the unit. Can I also ask, are you willing to add other Eldar to your lists?

Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".

Also, since apparently searchlights are getting added to the discussion, remember that they don't stack.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Let me try another way: A Rhino is 70 points. A Rhino is a unit expressely design to provide an added layer of protection against shooting attacks for the troops inside, that I have to spend a turn killing before being able to attack the troops inside. If I use Manticores, it takes 400 points of Manticores to kill it in 1 turn. By your standard, how is that fair at all if I can't get rid of this obstacle efficiently, since if I can't kill it in 1 turn there's going to be a giant pile of Berzerkers attacking me? And that's before we consider the fact that you probably have 3 or 4 Rhinos full of Berzerkers!

A few things:
1. Your conscripts don't inflict mortal wounds on the units they were protecting. Be kinda funny if they did though.
2. How exactly is 18 inch move enough to get in guaranteed charge range on an average table?
3. There is a big difference between "kill this unit before it gets the unit it is protecting in range to start dealing damage" and "kill this unit before the unit it is protecting tables you". You don't instant lose when the zerkers enter melee range. You can fall back and use other units to shoot, or use super heavies.
4. Three times it's points to kill it in a turn is a bit different than three times it's points to kill it in 2-3 turns before accounting for your own losses.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The Tyranid guy made a mistake that cost the game. First off he had 2 Mawlocs, which critically underperfomed in a spectacular way. At least they soaked up some gunfire from the Shadowsword, I guess. Second, he didn't charge it with his Hive Tyrant while he had the chance, which would have allowed him to kill it. He tried to kill a Basilisk instead, which was a major mistake. I wasn't panicking, but I was on the edge of disaster all game. He was in combat with my Shadowsword on turn 3, and took 12 wounds off it then and there. That was basically my only unit left! My only other thing was an ordinary Leman Russ with 7 wounds remaining. The game was all about the Shadowsword, and it's ability to keep shooting while in melee, because my frontline and second line collapsed so fast I didn't even know what happened. It could have collapsed even faster if he had fought with his Tyrant instead of his Hormagaunts, and he'd have consolidated into the Shadowsword on turn 1! My deployment zone isn't that big!

Which, combined with the things he did which were lucky (landing the early charge and getting really good melee performance from his genestealers collapsing the battle line early) seems to indicate this wasn't an uphill battle. This sounds far more like a fair fight, he managed to secure a critical early lead which was squandered with a few minor mistakes and one poorly performing unit. .

I'm going to keep harping on the list thing. Your army can easily destroy non tailored armies of all sorts, yet your "counter armies" are one that's literally just the best dedicated anti infantry and nothing else, followed by an army that, by your own account, doesn't sound like a counter, it sounds like an even match at worst.

Oh my god, one or two guys in ten might die! That's such a major loss! Losses from vehicles being destroyed are so negligible considering how many points went into obliterating the vehicle they might as well not be a thing.

Rhinos serve the same purpose for an assault army as conscripts do for ours. To make us require extra turn of shooting on us before we can begin to cripple your army. It also takes about 4 times Conscript's cost to kill them in 1 turn.

As far as movement with a Rhino, a Rhino also effectively doesn't count as a deployment drop, so it's helping you to go first. It moves 12" and advances D6" on turn 1, or however safe you feel getting close to the Conscripts. On turn 2, or when the vehicle blows up, the package of nasty gets out 3" from the vehicle than moves 6", that's 21" if you want to fire your Rhino's weapons, potentially 27". The minimum result possible on a charge is 3" [2 on the dice, +1"]. On any scenario other than Hammer and Anvil and Spearhead Assault, the 24" is enough to reach the frontline guaranteed.

Also, making the charge wasn't "lucky". Genestealers re-roll charges and Hormagaunts add 1 to their charge rolls, the Hive Tyrant was in my face already, and he spent a Command Point to get in with the Hormagaunts.



With regards to my Sisters list, they're an all-comer's list. I run about 50/50 Storm Bolters and Meltaguns on the Dominions, and 50/50 Immolation Flamers and Multimeltas on the Immolators. In addition, Seraphim can move 24" then jump over the conscripts to charge the tanks, depending on how I feel about a 8" charge. It handles gunline IG just fine. I haven't brought it up against deep-striking Tyranids, the list that I'm basically terrified of, because that is a list with almost no counterplay.


Let's look at this mathematically. A IG tank is 4.5" long. The first Conscript line is set up about .5" behind the edge of the deployment zone, the second line is set up 4.5" behind the first. Bases are 1", so that means the conscripts are consuming the front 7" of the deployment zone. For Dawn of War, there's then .5" behind the second ranks, and then the tanks, because there's nowhere else to go. For Frontline Assault, it's worse, because the deployment is thinner, forcing the IG to concentrate in the center where there's space. For Vanguard Strike and Search and Destroy, the tanks are forced to cluster up, and still don't have a lot of space between them and the Conscripts [from experience, I've tried it], but one or two could get back out of reach. Only for Spearhead Assault and Hammer and Anvil is there enough backfield space to put the tanks out of reach in turn 1, but, assuming you passed the Conscripts, they're definitely going to be in reach on turn 2. Keep in mind that, on Vanguard Assault and Search and Destroy it's also nearly impossible for the tanks to seek cover from ranged antitank options.

 ross-128 wrote:
Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".

Also, since apparently searchlights are getting added to the discussion, remember that they don't stack.

So what? you're still charging conscripts. Your units will not make it past them.

And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?

 ross-128 wrote:
Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".

I forgot to calculate the advance for the rhino turn one and the extra three inches for leaving the vehicle (but did include the unit's movement), but that's still just barely hitting the 24" range (12+3.5+6+3), and most deployment zones are large enough you can stand back a ways. Even if you just need to hit the average 7 for your charge distance and they get to reroll every failed charge, that's still only around a 50-60% chance overall, including the advance roll's chance of failure.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but a guarantee?

 Marmatag wrote:

And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?

Assuming you had any shooting whatsoever, nothing, because you went first.