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Drager wrote: It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description of is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?
Fair enough. I imagine the guard to deploy in two tight rectangles in the center of the deployment zone, as far forward as possible. The rectangles are something like 8x6" each, so a total front 16" across and 6" deep. 2 Conscripts from either blob form a 6" tail back behind it from the rough center of each blob, which reaches to the back of the table. Beside the tip of each tail is the searchlight. The commissar and officer are between the tails, 3" from each side, just a step in front of the rear guy so nothing dropping behind them (when they move forward away from the table edge) can shoot them.
This assumes that whatever cover the rangers are being placed in is pretty much also front and center. It can pretty easily adjust to likely ranger deployment locations.
Keep in mind I've also had no problem assuming the rangers have cover and los to commissar no matter where they deploy, this whole time. I'm honestly not trying to tilt this to favor IG, I'd rather get a workable solution to my problem IRL games then win an internet argument.
I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.
You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.
I am currently sitting on a 100% win rate against non-IG and a 100% loss-rate against IG haha... not that many games yet though.
My normal gaming tables are a little sparse on terrain, and also have the built-in hills from the GW 2x2 tiles, so los is rarely difficult. This is a very realistic scenario for me in the real world.
Cool. I'll work on it a bit more. I should point out I've assumed no cover for the prior scenario.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From what you have described as soon as the blobs move forward a melee deep striker could just assault the officers fairly easily, without assaulting the guardsmen. Also with the tail that far apart a plane can easily land so that it is closest to the commissar and not the unit. Can I also ask, are you willing to add other Eldar to your lists?
With no cover, how are the rangers immune to being shot? They need the cover to get -1 to hit, and also I was calculating their armor save at 3+ for cover, not 5+
The tails can be tweaked a bit. Pulled in to stop flyers landing there (is that enough space? I hadn't thought so but I didn't check), and pulled out a bit to stop deep strikers that could pull off a charge. When you deploy you'll know what you're up against, and a few more conscripts to make fancy tails goes a long, long way towards stopping shenanigans aimed at the officers. My typical opponent doesn't ever move his officers from the back edge (where, in a normal size game they're also surrounded by heavy weapons teams and tanks), and just extends his conscripts' tail as required.
And yeah, I realize that in this edition things are more open, but also saying I should get Dark Eldar or Forgeworld feels exactly like saying "just play space marines." I'm waffling on my Forgeworld feelings, but having played on and off since 3rd edition I can't shake from my head that Forgeworld is overpriced and overpowered and designed for apocalypse games only. I know only the "overpowered" part of that is still true these days
SilverAlien wrote: Huh, I just realized something and I feel rather dumb for not making the connection before, but not only does smaller size make it harder to benefit from buffs and auras, more units means another potential morale loss that previously wasn't there. Yeah, I could see that working. Could even max out at 25 just to be exactly half of what it is now.
Yeah, that's why the Compromise focuses on the size. I think that's the best way to deal with it as a smaller unit goes after the core problems ... Order efficiency, Commissar morale immunity, and "Good luck killing 400 guys before time runs out" at the same time, without changing any points costs or adding any new rules.
The core size of 20 guys gives it a design space, allows for some shenanigans but not *massive* ones, and the need for more Troops slots to get massive levels means that you have to take other units as a 'tax' to make it viable. (Mind you, that's still 120 guys in a normal detatchment, but, it's a start.) ...
I honestly think it's the best solution.
Just rewrite the entry as "This unit contains 20 Conscripts" and leave out the "Add * more section, and change the force chart from 20-50 to just 20.
Taa daa.
It's the simplest fix and fair to everyone, I think.
And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?
Assuming you had any shooting whatsoever, nothing, because you went first.
I feel this thread is rapidly descending into silliness - but do you not play with seize the initiative?
Or perhaps more accurately, try to seize, immediately burn a command point to try again?
The IG player will go first about a third of the time.
And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?
Assuming you had any shooting whatsoever, nothing, because you went first.
Are you people for real.
Both players get a "turn 1." Even if the guard player goes second, they get to act in turn 1.
You can't advance a rhino and disembark. So the guard player isn't being charged turn 1.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Both players get a "turn 1." Even if the guard player goes second, they get to act in turn 1.
You can't advance a rhino and disembark. So the guard player isn't being charged turn 1.
Yes, both players get a turn 1. That is correct. I was being a little snide about your "full strength" comment. The guard army is not shooting at anything with its full strength because you've already shot at it (presuming you actually have anything except melee units). Thus, it is not "full strength".
Both players get a "turn 1." Even if the guard player goes second, they get to act in turn 1.
You can't advance a rhino and disembark. So the guard player isn't being charged turn 1.
Yes, both players get a turn 1. That is correct. I was being a little snide about your "full strength" comment. The guard army is not shooting at anything with its full strength because you've already shot at it (presuming you actually have anything except melee units). Thus, it is not "full strength".
The manticores and wyverns will certainly be at full strength.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
ross-128 wrote: Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".
Also, since apparently searchlights are getting added to the discussion, remember that they don't stack.
So what? you're still charging conscripts. Your units will not make it past them.
And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?
Then it shoots the rhinos, who have already accomplished their task. Let me drive this point home: when the IG gets to shoot the Rhinos, they've already move up 12"-18" and no longer have to worry about their continued existence. Their survival is merely a convenience.
Then, the nasty that was inside, let's say Berzerkers, piles out of the Rhinos, and moves up to charge the Conscripts.
Allow me to arrange this hypothetical matchup:
Spoiler:
2000:
IG: CC, 100 Conscripts, 10 Guardsmen, Commissar, Pask Battle Tank, 2 Command Battle Tanks, 2 Leman Russ Punishers, 2 Manticores, 2 Wyverns, total 8 CP from a Battalion and 2 Spearheads.
Chaos: Kharn, 39x Berzerkers, Sorceror, 17x Rubrics, Predator with Lascannons, 6x Rhinos. total 5 CP in 2 Vanguards
Deployment pattern is a roll off, but IG has CP to burn trying to get the most favorable pattern, so they chose Hammer and Anvil.
Chaos has 7 drops, and it's fairly straightforward: All the Rhinos line up on the front line, 4 full of Berzkers [and Kharn], 2 with Rubrics [and the Sorcerer].
IG has many drops. The Battle Tanks and artillery disperse along the back edge, and the Punishers sit next to and in front of their Commanders, with the Infantry squad between them giving a little extra shelter for the TC's. The Conscripts line up 4.5" ahead of the tanks in 2 lines, 4.5" apart.
Chaos goes first, and move all the Rhinos up the board. The Chaos Predator shoots a anti-infantry tank, and will spend a CP to ensure a good damage result. It probably doesn't die, but is at least degrades. Rhinos pepper the first rank of conscripts with Combi-bolter fire.
IG fires, and blows up the Predator, and 1 Rhino. These guys pile out into cover if they can, otherwise they stand around and die.
Chaos unloads everything, and uses Warptime to move Kharn, who was probably in the blown up Rhino but can't be targeted, up the board to meet up with his friends the Berzerkers move directly into the face of the first rank. Rubrics blast the first rank, and so do the Rhinos, and so do the Berzerker's Bolt Pistols, killing off about 30. It's not the whole unit, but between it, the first turn's combi-bolter fire, and smites, it opens a path through to the second rank, who are a 9" charge for the Berzerkers and a 7" for the Rhinos. Since the Berzerkers can re-roll charges, this isn't a big deal, and even then they could charge the first rank and use clever positioning to be allowed to pile in to the second rank. The Rhinos try to charge, both ranks. there are 5, at least 2 ought to make it, turning off overwatch. The Berzerkers charge both units, and delete the Conscripts. 30 Berzerkers, re-rolling to-hits, generating new attacks on a 6, will kind of do that.
IG unloads again, with more fire. Most of it will be directed at Berzerkers, and about half to two-thirds will die, depending on how well the IG rolls.
Chaos goes, and is within reach of all the vehicles for assault. Shoot with Rubrics at the tanks and Smite them, then charge, first with Rhinos, then with Berzerkers. Go for the Manticores and Wyverns first with the Berzerkers, and get rid of them.
Anyway, from this point onwards, the IG can't shoot, so it's a matter of time while Berzerkers stay in CQC with the tanks. The Rhinos break off the cap the objectives at the end of the game, as do the Rubrics, and that should be that.
The IG in this scenario has a dilemma, actually. The multi-melta armed Battle Tanks can start further forwards, giving them a shot at cracking open Rhinos, but also leaving them caught in the second turn charges, or they can stay back and not get to use the multimeltas until turn 2.
The IG wants to set up the tanks forwards, and then retreat through the conscript line on turn 1, that way, in the 1/3 chance that the initiative is siezed, they can press the advantage, move into range, and crack open the Rhinos early.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 17:42:53
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Fair enough, but I can't tolerate another edition where GW flushes my army.
What is your army?
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Fething BA. There was no way I was going to buy 5 ravens, and that got nerfbatted right out of box. Deservedly so, I might add. But it seemed that that was our big scheme this edition. Good job, GW.
BA: arguably best model line in the game, with sewage for crunch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 17:45:47
The chaos player has a +1 to go first, but it's still a roll-off, and the Guard player can still seize.
The guard player should ignore the Predator. It won't deal enough damage per turn by itself, and it's been orphaned in the back line with no rerolls. We're assuming it has a predator auto-cannon, which wounds Leman Russ on 5's, which isn't a threat. Then, it has 2 lascannon shots per turn. That's less than 1 expected wound per turn. Focusing it with your range is a colossal mistake.
The combined might of that guard army would destroy more than 1 rhino. The conscripts would get FRFSRF and annihilate the berzerkers in the popped rhinos. Wyverns could help if need be.
The remaining rhinos could easily be charged and bubble-wrapped (or nearly bubble wrapped) by the first wave of conscripts. The chaos player is forced to retreat the rhinos if he is even able to. At this point the game is over.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:03:04
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Martel732 wrote: Fething BA. There was no way I was going to buy 5 ravens, and that got nerfbatted right out of box. Deservedly so, I might add. But it seemed that that was our big scheme this edition. Good job, GW.
BA: arguably best model line in the game, with sewage for crunch.
BA, is, at best, the 3rd nicest model line. You do not have tanks that are rolling pipe organs, and you definitely are also behind the Grey Knights. Though Sanguinary Guard are pretty cool looking, which might get #3.
Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA
The chaos player has a +1 to go first, but it's still a roll-off, and the Guard player can still seize.
The guard player should ignore the Predator. It won't deal enough damage per turn by itself, and it's been orphaned in the back line with no rerolls. We're assuming it has a predator auto-cannon, which wounds Leman Russ on 5's, which isn't a threat. Then, it has 2 lascannon shots per turn. That's less than 1 expected wound per turn. Focusing it with your range is a colossal mistake.
The combined might of that guard army would destroy more than 1 rhino. The conscripts would get FRFSRF and annihilate the berzerkers in the popped rhinos. Wyverns could help if need be.
The remaining rhinos could easily be charged and bubble-wrapped (or nearly bubble wrapped) by the first wave of conscripts. The chaos player is forced to retreat the rhinos if he is even able to. At this point the game is over.
No, it's Twin-Las. The predator is a must-destroy, because 4x Lascannons can absolutely degrade a Leman Russ a turn, and if it's around on turn 2, it's going to go after the other Punisher, and that's going to seriously cut the IG's ability to deal with the Berzerkers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:10:45
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
"Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA"
None of that is remotely efficient enough to make a dent in conscripts. At least, not a big enough dent with all the other IG fire coming back. GW just underestimated T3 5+ this edition. And then undercosted a couple other IG units, and BAMO. They're off to the races. Most of those units you listed aren't really that good in practice. Most are overcosted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:12:23
Martel732 wrote: "Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA"
None of that is remotely efficient enough to make a dent in conscripts. At least, not a big enough dent with all the other IG fire coming back. GW just underestimated T3 5+ this edition. And then undercosted a couple other IG units, and BAMO. They're off to the races. Most of those units you listed aren't really that good in practice. Most are overcosted.
LasPreds are very good. You can knock out a Leman Russ a turn with 1. The Leman Russ won't blow up, but hitting on 6's makes the tank basically a non-factor.
Baal Preds can also take down plenty of conscripts. It gets 12 AC shots, 12 HB shots, 2-4 Storm Bolter shots, and a H-K Missile. The Captain can give re-rolls too. That's about 15 conscripts removed per Predator. Two of them sound like enough, one if you also have a Crusader.
I'd avoid offering infantry targets early in the game, and not commit particularly heavily to infantry killing. Load up with tanks, and take out their anti-infantry tanks. You'll lose your tanks to their anti-tank tanks, but if you play your cards right you can cripple their anti-infantry firepower in time for your infantry, who can kill both tanks and infantry, to arrive on the battlefield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:21:22
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Martel732 wrote: "Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA"
None of that is remotely efficient enough to make a dent in conscripts. At least, not a big enough dent with all the other IG fire coming back. GW just underestimated T3 5+ this edition. And then undercosted a couple other IG units, and BAMO. They're off to the races. Most of those units you listed aren't really that good in practice. Most are overcosted.
LasPreds are very good. You can knock out a Leman Russ a turn with 1. The Leman Russ won't blow up, but hitting on 6's makes the tank basically a non-factor.
Baal Preds can also take down plenty of conscripts. It gets 12 AC shots, 12 HB shots, 2-4 Storm Bolter shots, and a H-K Missile. The Captain can give re-rolls too. That's about 15 conscripts removed per Predator. Two of them can make.
I'd avoid offering infantry targets early in the game, and not commit particularly heavily to infantry killing. Load up with tanks, and take out their anti-infantry tanks. You'll lose your tanks to their anti-tank tanks, but if you play your cards right you can cripple their anti-infantry firepower in time for your infantry, who can kill both tanks and infantry, to arrive on the battlefield.
This does not work out the way that you think it will. I'm not even worried about Russes. I'm worried about all the stuff out of LoS and all the objectives I can't physically reach because the conscripts have clogged the table.
Sadly, Baal preds suck pretty badly right now due to miscosting. And the Baal only gets 6 HB shots. Which wound conscripts on 3's. Hooray. The BA just can't get enough stuff on the table to do what you describe.
Las preds are marginal. They are 200+ pts for a T7 tanks with W11. Very glass cannony. If we were talking Wave Serpents, I'd agree.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:24:09
From what I understand, BAs are on the choppier end of the Space Marine scale. They're almost kind of like Loyalist Khorne, but they don't commit nearly as hard, so they don't have anything that's on the ridiculous scale of berzerkers.
However, being a choppy-ish army does mean that they should probably be aiming to get into assault against anyone who is less choppy than they are, and this includes Guard. I've pointed out before that Space Marines should not make the mistake of thinking that they're Tau, this goes double for BAs.
Looking through their book a lot of their bonuses are rather specifically useless against guard (getting S5 against T3 models, -1LD on a unit that has a commissar, things like that), but there are some that might come in handy. Astorath supporting a charge is a strong option to look at: he can make you re-roll all failed hit rolls in the Fight phase AND get a +1 to hit in the fight phase. WS2+ re-rolling to hit Death Company with hand flamers and chainswords could potentially get some serious work done.
Another big thing about Conscripts to keep in mind: you don't have to remove them efficiently at all. You just have to remove them and survive, no matter how inefficient you were at doing it, and you win. Conscripts are the hard crunchy shell around a Guard gunline's soft, juicy center. It doesn't really matter how hard it was to crack that shell, as long as you get a decent number of units through it you're home free.
ross-128 wrote: From what I understand, BAs are on the choppier end of the Space Marine scale. They're almost kind of like Loyalist Khorne, but they don't commit nearly as hard, so they don't have anything that's on the ridiculous scale of berzerkers.
However, being a choppy-ish army does mean that they should probably be aiming to get into assault against anyone who is less choppy than they are, and this includes Guard. I've pointed out before that Space Marines should not make the mistake of thinking that they're Tau, this goes double for BAs.
Looking through their book a lot of their bonuses are rather specifically useless against guard (getting S5 against T3 models, -1LD on a unit that has a commissar, things like that), but there are some that might come in handy. Astorath supporting a charge is a strong option to look at: he can make you re-roll all failed hit rolls in the Fight phase AND get a +1 to hit in the fight phase. WS2+ re-rolling to hit Death Company with hand flamers and chainswords could potentially get some serious work done.
Another big thing about Conscripts to keep in mind: you don't have to remove them efficiently at all. You just have to remove them and survive, no matter how inefficient you were at doing it, and you win. Conscripts are the hard crunchy shell around a Guard gunline's soft, juicy center. It doesn't really matter how hard it was to crack that shell, as long as you get a decent number of units through it you're home free.
I can almost guarantee you that won't happen with the way BA are currently costed.
BA want to chop. but GW made us kinda bad at it again.
DC will always be the first thing that any horde list murders. They will never make it to assault. We have to be trickier than that, and we just keep coming up short on the tabletop when we try that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:28:21
No disrespect, but there is no "you just have to..." to deal with imperial guard for some armies in this edition.
And absolutely you ignore the las-pred. It's isolated in the backfield. Assuming it can even find LOS to an ideal target, it has to move to do so.
It MIGHT kill a tank. But the Berzerkers are the priority. Kill the rhinos. Kill the berzerkers. Charge the rhinos. Game over. You win.
Even if it's 1 las pred versus the remaining conscripts, assuming everything else is dead, the laspred kills at most 4 conscripts a turn. They can be parked on objectives and the predator will do nothing.
Now, if you're talking 4 las preds, paired with an HQ for reroll bubbles, then yeah, deal with it, but that's half the list. And you'll be staying out of LOS letting manticores do the work there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:31:54
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Then take measures to get them there. Put them in Rhinos to absorb the first turn of shooting (we have established, after all, that Rhinos are quite efficient bullet sponges), or give them jump packs so they can deep-strike. Though if they deep strike you might want to add a way for them to re-roll charge distance.
Though one thing I'm also noting is I haven't been able to find the Blood Angels' chapter tactics or chapter strategem. There's a strong chance those will be useful, if for no other reason than Chapter Tactics being nearly an army-wide buff.
ross-128 wrote: Then take measures to get them there. Put them in Rhinos to absorb the first turn of shooting (we have established, after all, that Rhinos are quite efficient bullet sponges), or give them jump packs so they can deep-strike. Though if they deep strike you might want to add a way for them to re-roll charge distance.
Though one thing I'm also noting is I haven't been able to find the Blood Angels' chapter tactics or chapter strategem. There's a strong chance those will be useful, if for no other reason than Chapter Tactics being nearly an army-wide buff.
We don't have one yet. There's also a strong chance it will be awful and useless because GW.
Rhinos are good, but the IG is better. They can easily bring enough stuff to wreck all the Rhinos they want and still have 150 conscripts on the table. There's no way to game around that.
You can't finesse your way around current BA pricing. I can't beat IG even with list tailoring, which is saying something.
The deep strike assault thing sucks. I've been trying it, and gave up on it. Rerolls are too rare and the payoff is too low.
I might also point out that without sweeping advance, IG can likely just kill BA in assault through attrition.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:38:14
Lascannon Predators are very good though, and in no way overpriced.
You should absolutely be targeting their anti-infantry vehicles. Accept the loss of your tanks, try to cripple their Punishers and Wyverns. That clears the way for your infantry to kit their infantry and their tanks.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Lascannon Predators are very good though, and in no way overpriced.
You should absolutely be targeting their anti-infantry vehicles. Accept the loss of your tanks, try to cripple their Punishers and Wyverns. That clears the way for your infantry to kit their infantry and their tanks.
I said marginal. They are not GOOD. They may be overpriced, I don't know yet. Compared to the Wave Serpent, they are definitely overpriced, but I'm willing to consider the Serpent busted again this edition.
Last game, he had 3 manticore, 3 wyvern out of LoS. Got any fixes for that?
BA just don't have the staying power to execute your plan. There was a reason that the Raven was a major crutch.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:41:24
Well, I'm definitely scratching my head over why the hand flamer costs more than a full size flamer. Sure, you can fire it in melee... but it's only 1d3 S3 AP0, it shouldn't cost more than a full size flamer (or even a plasma pistol for that matter).
That said, if you're going to maintain that BA is entirely underpowered and over-pointed, then that doesn't sound like a problem with IG, that sounds like a problem with BA.
In which case, you're entirely off topic. You should be off making a "Buff BA" thread somewhere.
Marmatag wrote: No disrespect, but there is no "you just have to..." to deal with imperial guard for some armies in this edition.
And absolutely you ignore the las-pred. It's isolated in the backfield. Assuming it can even find LOS to an ideal target, it has to move to do so.
It MIGHT kill a tank. But the Berzerkers are the priority. Kill the rhinos. Kill the berzerkers. Charge the rhinos. Game over. You win.
Even if it's 1 las pred versus the remaining conscripts, assuming everything else is dead, the laspred kills at most 4 conscripts a turn. They can be parked on objectives and the predator will do nothing.
Now, if you're talking 4 las preds, paired with an HQ for reroll bubbles, then yeah, deal with it, but that's half the list. And you'll be staying out of LOS letting manticores do the work there.
I still don't get this "I can't hit the Manticore!" thing.
We've established already that, unless I bought a giant Fortress of Redemption or something, there's not a lot of places to hide.
Spoiler:
This is the table I last played on. I'm the Sisters [It's about halfway through my first turn. I've already cleaned out about two-thirds of his infantry and two of his tanks].
Huh, image isn't working right. Not sure what's up. Anyway, it's basically open with a lot of small hedgerows and clusters of trees.
The table in the background is the densest thing I've ever seen, and even then only a slight bit of maneuvering would be required to expose any given position. Also, all those building have first-floor windows.
And if we look at GW's terrain, it becomes even more impossible to actually put a tank out of Line of Sight. Hooray for first-floor windows!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:04:58
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
It was behind a giant stadium terrain piece. Get it now?
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ross-128 wrote: Well, I'm definitely scratching my head over why the hand flamer costs more than a full size flamer. Sure, you can fire it in melee... but it's only 1d3 S3 AP0, it shouldn't cost more than a full size flamer (or even a plasma pistol for that matter).
That said, if you're going to maintain that BA is entirely underpowered and over-pointed, then that doesn't sound like a problem with IG, that sounds like a problem with BA.
In which case, you're entirely off topic. You should be off making a "Buff BA" thread somewhere.
Most BA stuff is marine stuff. I don't see other armies having a good shot vs the IG, either to be honest. What are Eldar gonna do? Last a little longer with their serpents before losing on objectives like BA? And you get to wound their dudes on a 4+ with your 150+ lasguns!
BA can't be the real issue, because 95% of the list is just marines! But I don't see any solutions over in the vanilla marine section, either. The Baal is useless, but I can use a dakka pred. But both are too slow at removing conscripts. Thunderfire cannon? Too slow. Whirlwind? WAY too slow.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:51:48
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
IIRC, searchlights are forgeworld.
Turn 0: "I don't play with, or against, Forgeworld."
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
