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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Martel732 wrote:
It was behind a giant stadium terrain piece. Get it now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ross-128 wrote:
Well, I'm definitely scratching my head over why the hand flamer costs more than a full size flamer. Sure, you can fire it in melee... but it's only 1d3 S3 AP0, it shouldn't cost more than a full size flamer (or even a plasma pistol for that matter).

That said, if you're going to maintain that BA is entirely underpowered and over-pointed, then that doesn't sound like a problem with IG, that sounds like a problem with BA.

In which case, you're entirely off topic. You should be off making a "Buff BA" thread somewhere.


Most BA stuff is marine stuff. I don't see other armies having a good shot vs the IG, either to be honest. What are Eldar gonna do? Last a little longer with their serpents before losing on objectives like BA? And you get to wound their dudes on a 4+ with your 150+ lasguns!

BA can't be the real issue, because 95% of the list is just marines! But I don't see any solutions over in the vanilla marine section, either. The Baal is useless, but I can use a dakka pred. But both are too slow at removing conscripts. Thunderfire cannon? Too slow. Whirlwind? WAY too slow.



Well, may I recommend trying one of multiple approaches:

Don't put that terrain piece on the board. Put that terrain piece in the middle of the board. Use GW's recommended terrain placement rules [2 items per 2'x2' square]. Use terrain that has the approximate profile of a GW terrain piece [8"x8", lots of windows]. Select a deployment zone that doesn't put a giant wall between you and him.


If I go out, and set up the board so there's a 6" tall wall across my deployment zone with razorwire on top of it, it isn't really fair no matter how overpowered my army is or underpowered yours is.


Seriously, if there's a thing big enough to conceal 6 whole tanks from anywhere on the board, that thing is the source of the problem.



Also, Tyranids, Necrons, Harlequins, Orks, Sisters, etc. can all handle the IG gunline.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:00:54


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually, since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.

The point here is that the IG is becoming vaguely reminiscent of the Eldar in that I have zero models left by turn 5. They're just a little slower is all.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:03:41


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Martel732 wrote:
The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.


Hell no.

The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.


Hell no.

The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.


Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers. Maybe I should start saying "marines", because I'm not sure what they are going to do any different. Rowboat with some asscan razors? Okay. That's good for one blob, but after all the stuff Rowboat is buffing dies, then what?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:05:44


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?

The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.


We covered this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.


Hell no.

The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.


Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers.


There are 6 tanks. Cripple 3 of them. Make the 3 you cripple Wyverns.

3 Manticores can neutralize 1 Predator. Accept that loss. Cripple two Manticores, bring in your shock troops, and, since what's left of your tanks has done their job use the tanks to assault the Conscripts to pin them down while your Vanguards get into position to charge.



I'm still really surprised that this is the problem list. I was expecting something like 12 Mortar Squads, 100 Conscripts, 50 Guardsmen with Lascannons, and a Vendetta to be the real "problem" list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:11:10


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?

The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.


We covered this.


We did. Orders are broken on conscripts.

ITT:
"Orders make conscripts OP."
"Yeah they do."
"But guys, Orders make conscripts OP!!"
"Yes, thank you, I agree."
"BUT CONSCRIPTS ARE OP WITH ORDERS GUYS!"!"!"
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Sadly, I'm concerned they are still broken without orders just from a table control perspective.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Sadly, I'm concerned they are still broken without orders just from a table control perspective.


Cheaper morale-immune models in the game exist, and therefore have better board control than conscripts. Fix them first.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?

The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.


We covered this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.


Hell no.

The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.


Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers.


There are 6 tanks. Cripple 3 of them. Make the 3 you cripple Wyverns.

3 Manticores can neutralize 1 Predator. Accept that loss. Cripple two Manticores, bring in your shock troops, and, since what's left of your tanks has done their job use the tanks to assault the Conscripts to pin them down while your Vanguards get into position to charge.


Marines will be missing a lot more units than that. The list had a lot more stuff, too. It's all part of IG having several undercosted options that work very well together. There was a Vendetta involved as well, which was catastrophic for my armor count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sadly, I'm concerned they are still broken without orders just from a table control perspective.


Cheaper morale-immune models in the game exist, and therefore have better board control than conscripts. Fix them first.


They're on the list, too, for sure. I'm guessing those lists don't have the back up that the IG conscripts, do though. Ask the GK how well having one and only one busted unit works out. I guess it was working with Ravens for two months, but that was a weird, weird phenomenon. I think T3 5+ is just undercosted across the board. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's looking that way.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:14:15


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?

The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.


We covered this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.


Hell no.

The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.


Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers.


There are 6 tanks. Cripple 3 of them. Make the 3 you cripple Wyverns.

3 Manticores can neutralize 1 Predator. Accept that loss. Cripple two Manticores, bring in your shock troops, and, since what's left of your tanks has done their job use the tanks to assault the Conscripts to pin them down while your Vanguards get into position to charge.


Marines will be missing a lot more units than that. The list had a lot more stuff, too. It's all part of IG having several undercosted options that work very well together. There was a Vendetta involved as well, which was catastrophic for my armor count.



So if the problem is 'other units', why worry about conscripts?

It's arguably more unfluffy to see a billion minimum suicide scion squads, or a billion Vendettas, or a billion Tauroxes.

Hello, Guardsmen have been 'that one army that has conscripts' for longer than it was 'that one army that has good tanks!'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
They're on the list, too, for sure. I'm guessing those lists don't have the back up that the IG conscripts, do though. Ask the GK how well having one and only one busted unit works out. I guess it was working with Ravens for two months, but that was a weird, weird phenomenon.


Then change the backup. Huge blocks (or screens, or walls, depending on playstyle) of conscripts is one of the most iconic images in 40k fluff. Don't make guard the 'scion-spam army' by nerfing conscripts. I'd rather guard be a 'conscript-spam' army by nerfing scions.

Even if it's the same monobuild yadda yadda, at least it's fluffy. Ish.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:15:10


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Because the conscripts play their role in the whole thing. The other units become a little less scary if the conscripts are less effective, just as the conscripts would be less scary in a list full of marginal or overcosted support.

Iconic images don't mean much to me, mostly game play.

Unless we take away their guns entirely, I think 3 pts is too cheap for T3 5+ models in 8th. That's a 7th ed pricing, imo.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:17:05


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Because the conscripts play their role in the whole thing. The other units become a little less scary if the conscripts are less effective, just as the conscripts would be less scary in a list full of marginal or overcosted support.


Right... but conscripts are iconic. Don't nerf a unit that's been around since 2nd and is the core of an army's identity because you can't/won't nerf a 6th Edition abomination that was invented purely to make the hydra into a dual kit.

And I play the game for iconic images. The fluff is why I play. The game play is far too not-great to keep me playing on its merits alone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:17:22


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.


So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.


So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?


No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.

By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:21:28


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.


So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?


No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.


Recosted to what? 4PPM? And guardsmen to 5? And Veterans to 7? And Scions to 12?

Or should conscripts be bumped to 4PPM and just eat dicks since they're worse than guardsmen who are also 4PPM.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.


So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?


No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.

By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.


Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.

That's why I don't like Maelstrom of War. I like being able to sit in my corner and come out at the end to capture the points.


Conscripts are also mostly useless if your opponent isn't relying on close-quarters combat to destroy your tanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:25:35


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.

4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.


So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?


No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.

By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.


Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.


I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.

"Conscripts are also mostly useless if your opponent isn't relying on close-quarters combat to destroy your tanks."

Not at all. Think more closely about how the battle evolves.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:29:36


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.

4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.


And if you don't use orders (like me, because I'm a tank regiment) or Commissars (like my buddy, because he's a catachan regiment) you just get shafted?

Neat. Glad to see that "all situations" means "the situations Martel determines matter."
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




Newark, CA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?

The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.


Yes. It has been pointed out, repeatedly, by the IG players in the thread.

Orders are the problem. Not the conscripts staying power. Not their squad size. Not their range. Not their ability to withdraw from CC.

It's FRFSRF, Fix Bayonets!, and the order that lets you shoot after withdrawing from CC that are the primary problem. Conscripts are fairly priced, fluffy, and useful without being a huge issue mathmatically if you don't include orders.

The only other problem people run into is having to deal with conscripts when their list isn't set up to actually handle hords. But at that point any horde army would be an issue. Not just conscripts.

Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.

4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.


And if you don't use orders (like me, because I'm a tank regiment) or Commissars (like my buddy, because he's a catachan regiment) you just get shafted?

Neat. Glad to see that "all situations" means "the situations Martel determines matter."


4 ppm is still incredibly cheap for a model with a 5+ save that gets wounded on a 3+ by nearly every anti-infantry weapon in the game.

If you are using a tank regiment or lack commissars, then maybe don't bring conscripts. Just like I don't bring assault terminators without a land raider or stormraven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arandmoor wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?

The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.


Yes. It has been pointed out, repeatedly, by the IG players in the thread.

Orders are the problem. Not the conscripts staying power. Not their squad size. Not their range. Not their ability to withdraw from CC.

It's FRFSRF, Fix Bayonets!, and the order that lets you shoot after withdrawing from CC that are the primary problem. Conscripts are fairly priced, fluffy, and useful without being a huge issue mathmatically if you don't include orders.

The only other problem people run into is having to deal with conscripts when their list isn't set up to actually handle hords. But at that point any horde army would be an issue. Not just conscripts.


Actually I think those other things are problems as well. 3 ppm is incredibly cheap. I don't think they are fairly priced at all the more games I play.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:34:21


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.

4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.


And if you don't use orders (like me, because I'm a tank regiment) or Commissars (like my buddy, because he's a catachan regiment) you just get shafted?

Neat. Glad to see that "all situations" means "the situations Martel determines matter."


4 ppm is still incredibly cheap for a model with a 5+ save that gets wounded on a 3+ by nearly every anti-infantry weapon in the game.

If you are using a tank regiment or lack commissars, then maybe don't bring conscripts. Just like I don't bring assault terminators without a land raider or stormraven.


4PPM makes conscripts strictly worse than a competing choice. That's not balance.

Also, I'm glad to see we're at the stage where you tell other people how their army should be built. I'm super glad the 'balance-doesn't-remove-options' crowd is over here removing options from tank companies and Catachans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:


Actually I think those other things are problems as well. 3 ppm is incredibly cheap. I don't think they are fairly priced at all the more games I play.


So propose a fair price. Considering a Space Marine is 13 points, let's do some super rough estimating.

-2 BS: -2 points
-2 WS: -2 points
-1 T: -1 Pt
-1 S: -1 Pt
-2 Sv: -2 pt
No special rules at all: -1pt
-4 LD: -1pt
No pistol: -1pt
No krak grenades: -1pt

Let's start the bidding at 1ppm and go up from there, and that's if you think Combat Squads and ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are worth 1PPM combined!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:39:34


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.

It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?

I don't think tac marines are worth 13 ppm in practice. Tac marines have never been worth what the game charges for them. Given that they almost always die before they can enter assault, all their assault based stats are, in practice, worth nothing. It's the curse of the generalist in 40K.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:40:48


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.

It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?


No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.

Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Can everyone maybe add a tag to every post that says, "I think conscripts shouldn't take orders" or "I think conscripts are fine as is?"

Because it's really hard to discuss this topic with a bunch of random forum posters without knowing if we're already fundamentally in agreement on the core problem or not.

I think conscript shouldn't take orders
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

As for the cost of tactical marines...

...why do you play 40k? I mean, what unit do you think is fairly priced? And in relation to what?

I too believe conscripts are OP with orders included.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:41:27


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Martel732 wrote:
If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.

4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.


So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?


No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.

By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.


Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.


I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.



You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right?

The tabling phenomenon is not a problem with the IG. It's a problem with the game, and every army in it, and if a push to reduce conscript's toughness on the grounds that they're a mild inconvenience when I'm trying to assault all the IG tanks on turn 1 or 2 to end the game without a fight succeeds, that's only going to be making the tabling phenomenon worse.


The reason tabling is so common is manyfold:

1: Powerful units have access to deepstrike, making movement, range, and position basically a pointless exercise. [Stormtroopers, Genestealers, sometimes Orks, etc.]
2: Transported units are extremely fast, making positioning a pointless exercise. [Dominions, Harlequins]
3: Melee units are insanely destructive, hard to kill, fast, and basically end the game when the reach the enemy. [Genestealers, Berzerkers, Hormagaunts, sometimes Orks]
4: Shooting units are increased in power to compensate, and because melee units negate shooting units the moment they touch them, shooting lists focus on maximizing firepower with a carefully calculated minimum amount of resilience, [IG, Tau, Sisters]
5: Shooting and Melee units can move into position before firing and before charging, ensuring aggression and first-turn will grant an extreme advantage.

When two melee lists come up against each other, they rush to meet each other then toss dice until someone runs out of guys,
When a shooting list fights a melee list, the shooting list pulls out all the breaks and tries to blow up the entirely of the melee list before it reaches combat. The reliability with which they can do this determines the viability of shooting and melee.
When two shooting lists come up against each other, first move wins, because they can kill so many things in the first turn that the second player doesn't have enough left to contest the game.


If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks.



Basically, units are too fast and too killy. Part of the "too killy" is because they're fast, being close confers advantages, and they get to move before shooting.

When I joked a while back I'd trade conscripts for moving the Move phase to the end of the turn, I'm half serious.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:47:01


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.

It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?


No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.

Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.


I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right? "

What? Doesn't even matter, because conscripts can prevent you from getting to within 3" of the objective by EXISTING.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:44:17


 
   
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Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.

It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?


No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.

Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.


I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.


And all of those things should be nerfed because people build their armies well, even if the units in a vacuum are garbage? Even though those things will become even worse when fielded alone, such as when a Catachan player brings no commissars or a Heavy Weapons Company player brings no infantry squads?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.

It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?


No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.

Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.


I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right? "

What? Doesn't even matter, because conscripts can prevent you from getting to within 3" of the objective by EXISTING.


You know it is possible in Maelstrom to draw a card that isn't the one that 50 conscripts are standing on, right? And that sometimes you draw a card that you simply cannot score (such as destroy a building) and you have to bite it and move on to scoring on objectives you can get, right?

Or are you saying that every single objective you draw, even the Kill a Tank one, is completely and utterly unavailable simply because conscripts exist?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:46:18


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.

It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?


No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.

Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.


I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.


And all of those things should be nerfed because people build their armies well, even if the units in a vacuum are garbage? Even though those things will become even worse when fielded alone, such as when a Catachan player brings no commissars or a Heavy Weapons Company player brings no infantry squads?


Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.
   
 
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