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Martel732 wrote:


Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.

And who are the worst transgressors in this 'perfect storm' of tournament-winning unstoppable cheese that is sweeping the 8th edition W/L thread here? (it's not btw)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.

And who are the worst transgressors in this 'perfect storm' of tournament-winning unstoppable cheese that is sweeping the 8th edition W/L thread here? (it's not btw)

Stormravens already got kicked in the balls. Which needed to happen. So we'll have to see if IG rises to the top. It's one of the contenders, for sure. I can tell you that marines have no real answers except maybe for stuff that comes in the codex, which I won't have access to, of course.

"You know it is possible in Maelstrom to draw a card that isn't the one that 50 conscripts are standing on, right? And that sometimes you draw a card that you simply cannot score (such as destroy a building) and you have to bite it and move on to scoring on objectives you can get, right?

Or are you saying that every single objective you draw, even the Kill a Tank one, is completely and utterly unavailable simply because conscripts exist?"

None of that really matters because the conscripts facilitate easy tabling of marines. But from a strictly maelstrom perspective, they do increase the number of dead cards in the deck by just existing, and they conversely make a few cards autoscores for the IG. The "hold such and such for two turns" is particularly good for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks. "

It's really more like turn 5, or when I have no objectives left on my side of the table. Getting close is death, and staying at range is death.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.

And who are the worst transgressors in this 'perfect storm' of tournament-winning unstoppable cheese that is sweeping the 8th edition W/L thread here? (it's not btw)

Stormravens already got kicked in the balls. Which needed to happen. So we'll have to see if IG rises to the top. It's one of the contenders, for sure. I can tell you that marines have no real answers except maybe for stuff that comes in the codex, which I won't have access to, of course.

"You know it is possible in Maelstrom to draw a card that isn't the one that 50 conscripts are standing on, right? And that sometimes you draw a card that you simply cannot score (such as destroy a building) and you have to bite it and move on to scoring on objectives you can get, right?

Or are you saying that every single objective you draw, even the Kill a Tank one, is completely and utterly unavailable simply because conscripts exist?"

None of that really matters because the conscripts facilitate easy tabling of marines. But from a strictly maelstrom perspective, they do increase the number of dead cards in the deck by just existing, and they conversely make a few cards autoscores for the IG. The "hold such and such for two turns" is particularly good for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks. "

It's really more like turn 5, or when I have no objectives left on my side of the table. Getting close is death, and staying at range is death.

That doesn't really alter the fact that Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks will all have your force neutered on turn 1, 2, or 3. We all can do it, it's a system problem, not a problem with guard.

There are important mathematical differences there, imo. There is no list I fare worse against than IG. I've take the nids lunch money every game, actually.

Regarding other Marine chapters:
Ultramarines do fine, they have Rowboat and their chapter tactics allow them to aggressively blend shooting with assaulting.

Ravenguard are more than fine, since the IG will have -1 to hit across the board against them. This means most things hitting on 5+ and Conscripts hitting on 6+, so you're basically looking at S3 Ork shooting. Until they get within 12", but at that point they can just charge to negate the shooting entirely. Ravenguard also have the most deep-striking options thanks to their chapter strategem.

Iron Hands might have some trouble, but their 6+ FNP will help them stay on the table and get more units into CC.

White Scars will easily be doing first-turn charges with their chapter tactic.

Same for Black Templars, and Grimaldus will turn that fight into a blender.

Fists are a bit terrain dependent, but their ability to ignore cover will give them an edge in dense terrain.

Salamanders aren't particularly suited for fighting hordes (re-rolling 1 hit and 1 wound against 50 targets), but would likely be able to use their chapter tactic with long-ranged AT to just shoot over their heads and pop the tanks.

Flesh Tearers just bring Gabriel to turn any assault unit into budget berzerkers.

Dark Angels and Space Wolves have way too many options and special characters to keep track of. Blood Claws with the right equipment and characters can probably get 4 attacks that re-roll to hit in the fight phase though.

Also anyone who has a chapter master equivalent can get a budget Rowboat that gives you re-rolls for shooting and fighting. Consider that AdMech players consider Cawl pretty much must-includes just for re-rolls on shooting.

One big theme I'm noticing in general is "GW wants you to stack characters, because characters are expensive and GW wants your money".

Oh god...I just realized that Ravenguard Snipers are going to be a right PITA. Just take some Aegis Defense Line for them to hunker down behind...

-2 to hit them
+2 to sv when in cover
36" range that can target characters

They're not worth spamming, but good luck anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
There are important mathematical differences there, imo. There is no list I fare worse against than IG. I've take the nids lunch money every game, actually.

Then maybe, just maybe, your list is optimized to handle a preferred opponent and playstyle, and handle it well, and you're upset the Guard does not, in fact, abide by that playstyle and therefore your list is losing an edge in it's optimization.


My Sisters list is optimized to fight an opponent who is fielding mostly tanks and mechanized infantry, and as a rule isn't particularly interested in Close Quarters combat, and absolutely can't deal with melee deep-strikers. That doesn't necessarily mean CQC out of deep strike is OP [though deep-strike mass melee does put conscripts to shame in the realm of requiring no tactics and having no counterplay], it just means it's kind of inconvenient for me to face and requires me to take the extra step to secure victory.

No, it's a tac list.

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's a tac list.

So is my Sisters list. No list can truly have a hope of beating both an armored company with 0 infantry models and a infantry horde with all light infantry and no vehicle models. That's why saturating your list with tanks is generally so effective.

I've chosen to build a all-comer's list that handles the majority of the foes it might face. It has a marginal overdedication to killing tanks, because there are a lot of tanks in my meta, and several lists almost entirely of tanks/MC's, so if somebody broke the mold and ran 100% Hormagaunts or Boyz, I'd probably lose pretty bad.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I still don't get this "I can't hit the Manticore!" thing.

We've established already that, unless I bought a giant Fortress of Redemption or something, there's not a lot of places to hide.

Sorry you have not established that. The games i play are mostly with the ITC terrain setup. In each corner are GW ruins, or a hill. You can fit 4 manticores comfortably out of line of sight on these maps. If the deployment zones favor the guard, you can easily fit 6 out of line of sight.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And if we look at GW's terrain, it becomes even more impossible to actually put a tank out of Line of Sight. Hooray for first-floor windows!

Actually not all GW terrain is covered in windows as you described.

Let me pause here for a moment and say this:

I am speaking from practical experience. You're effectively trying to convince me that what I experience EVERY WEEKEND cannot happen.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's a tac list.

So is my Sisters list. No list can truly have a hope of beating both an armored company with 0 infantry models and a infantry horde with all light infantry and no vehicle models. That's why saturating your list with tanks is generally so effective.

I've chosen to build a all-comer's list that handles the majority of the foes it might face. It has a marginal overdedication to killing tanks, because there are a lot of tanks in my meta, and several lists almost entirely of tanks/MC's, so if somebody broke the mold and ran 100% Hormagaunts or Boyz, I'd probably lose pretty bad.

I still think that even if I list tailored, I'd come up short because my options for anti-infantry really aren't that good.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's a tac list.

So is my Sisters list. No list can truly have a hope of beating both an armored company with 0 infantry models and a infantry horde with all light infantry and no vehicle models. That's why saturating your list with tanks is generally so effective.

I've chosen to build a all-comer's list that handles the majority of the foes it might face. It has a marginal overdedication to killing tanks, because there are a lot of tanks in my meta, and several lists almost entirely of tanks/MC's, so if somebody broke the mold and ran 100% Hormagaunts or Boyz, I'd probably lose pretty bad.

I still think that even if I list tailored, I'd come up short because my options for anti-infantry really aren't that good.

There are Crusaders and Storm Ravens. You can engage them with Vanguard Marines and Sanguinary Guard. Tactical guys, as assault cannon razorbacks, can also put a dent in them. Massed fire many times their value will bring them down.

Also remember that your Land Raider or Storm Raven or other thing has other features besisdes its guns.

Let's try a Crusader, with, I don't know, 15 Vanguard and Gabriel Seth, riding in it. It absolutely can tank a lot of incoming fire, and consolidates 5 drops into 1, and do an impression of Khorne Berserkers.
The Land Raider can fire 24 boltgun shots, 12 Assault Cannon shots, and 4 Storm Bolter shots, then the Vanguard can shoot, and then charge, for 30 boltgun shots and 30 melee attacks, re-rolling to-hits. You can kill about 42, which is pretty respectable for a unit that both soaks fire and kills infantry. As an added bonus, you can annoy tanks once you're done with the Conscripts.

Or you can stuff it full of Sternguard and pretend to be Dominions, but with a Land Raider. Not a bad move either.
This gets the Land Raider's shooting, plus 60 boltgun shots and 30 melee attacks, all of which have re-rolls, averaging about 55 Conscripts kill per turn, for 700 points [3x cost of Conscripts and Support]

Or you can bring 3 Assault Cannon Razorbacks stuffed with Sternguard and do an even better impression of Dominions
This is more prone to degradation and doesn't have massive drop advantage, but also doesn't have an "all your eggs in one basket" effect, and gets 62 Conscripts a turn, plus 3 HK missiles for firing off at enemy tanks.


Also remember, if you stick HK Missiles and Storm Bolters on all your tanks, you can actually make a pretty sizable dent in the Conscripts while knocking out enemy tanks, leaving less heavy lifting for your antiinfantry units. Lately, I've been finding it incredibly useful to mount H-K missiles on my Immolators for this exact purpose. they're cheap, and added considerably to my already-powerful alpha-strike.


As an addendum, it looks like Wolf Guard are strictly better than Sternguard. For the same price, everyone also gets a Chainsword. On the other hand, the Space Wolves need to go for Grimnar for full re-rolls, who is more expensive than Seth.

Marmatag wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I still don't get this "I can't hit the Manticore!" thing.

We've established already that, unless I bought a giant Fortress of Redemption or something, there's not a lot of places to hide.

Sorry you have not established that. The games i play are mostly with the ITC terrain setup. In each corner are GW ruins, or a hill. You can fit 4 manticores comfortably out of line of sight on these maps. If the deployment zones favor the guard, you can easily fit 6 out of line of sight.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And if we look at GW's terrain, it becomes even more impossible to actually put a tank out of Line of Sight. Hooray for first-floor windows!

Actually not all GW terrain is covered in windows as you described.

Let me pause here for a moment and say this:

I am speaking from practical experience. You're effectively trying to convince me that what I experience EVERY WEEKEND cannot happen.

Take a picture of your board. I'm honestly not sure how to completely hide 6 tanks, in any deployment zone. I play every weekend and once again during the week. Sometimes there are a few large LoS-blocking obstacles, but they can at most hide one tank from one direction, and if you move 6" to the side you can see the tank. Other times there's a scattering of ruins, but there's almost always an open first-floor window to look through.


And I'm still not convinced at all by your argument that they're survivability is in excess anyway, since all I see is "there's something that presents an obstacle to deepstriking everything to win, that makes it impossible to win before the Guard fires a shot! It's OP!"


Grey Knights and Deathwatch might have a legitimate complaint, but that's more because GK and DW are probably severely underpowered. In particular, the former runs afoul of the Rule of 1 in psychic powers, and all their units pay for psychic powers they can't use and gets a special nerf on Smite. And that's not a problem with Conscripts, because mass Genestealers or mass Boyz will cause the same problem.

Genestealers and Orks are no where near the power level of guard. Not even in the same ball park at all. They're tough but it's not an auto-loss, like it is with guard. I mean I can take a picture of the boards, sure. Or you could just go to games workshop website and look through their terrain. lol.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And I'm still not convinced at all by your argument that they're survivability is in excess anyway, since all I see is "there's something that presents an obstacle to deepstriking everything to win, that makes it impossible to win before the Guard fires a shot! It's OP!"

There should be a major downside to locking out deepstriking options. Generally speaking, the majority of my anti tank is close range for CSM.

That should not be the sort of thing you manage without a large investment and real downsides that don't amount to "well a perfectly tailored list counters it!"

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Grey Knights and Deathwatch might have a legitimate complaint, but that's more because GK and DW are probably severely underpowered. In particular, the former runs afoul of the Rule of 1 in psychic powers, and all their units pay for psychic powers they can't use and gets a special nerf on Smite. And that's not a problem with Conscripts, because mass Genestealers or mass Boyz will cause the same problem.

Again, as stated before, these problems are not present in all horde armies because we don't need the same absurd level of anti infantry firepower to deal with most horde lists. I've beaten a list that was almost entirely ork infantry with the same army list that struggles to deal with conscripts. You aren't compareable to any other horde army, save the brimstone horror demon rush.

Grey Knights aren't gonna be changed at all codex wise. I'm ready for another year of mid-tier.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
And I'm still not convinced at all by your argument that they're survivability is in excess anyway, since all I see is "there's something that presents an obstacle to deepstriking everything to win, that makes it impossible to win before the Guard fires a shot! It's OP!"

There should be a major downside to locking out deepstriking options. Generally speaking, the majority of my anti tank is close range for CSM.

That should not be the sort of thing you manage without a large investment and real downsides that don't amount to "well a perfectly tailored list counters it!"

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Grey Knights and Deathwatch might have a legitimate complaint, but that's more because GK and DW are probably severely underpowered. In particular, the former runs afoul of the Rule of 1 in psychic powers, and all their units pay for psychic powers they can't use and gets a special nerf on Smite. And that's not a problem with Conscripts, because mass Genestealers or mass Boyz will cause the same problem.

Again, as stated before, these problems are not present in all horde armies because we don't need the same absurd level of anti infantry firepower to deal with most horde lists. I've beaten a list that was almost entirely ork infantry with the same army list that struggles to deal with conscripts. You aren't compareable to any other horde army, save the brimstone horror demon rush.

Deepstrike-everything is literally the most brain-dead strategy in the game. And that's saying something, because there's not a lot of strategy in 40k as is beyond "I move, and I shoot". It completely ignores the terrain on the board, it completely ignores maneuver, it completely ignores line of sight and cover, and it generally only cares 50% about target priority, because it's just going to charge the closest thing and keep piling and consolidating forward.

Deepstrike should be for a couple, small support units, not the core of the army's killing power. There should be a major downside to committing to mass deepstrike, of which there is none.

There is a downside to fielding an army full of conscripts as a counter to mass deepstrike, and that's being an entirely static position. You can't flex as the tactical situation demands it, you can't move out, early, thus preventing you from scoring objectives, and, if you're not observant of maneuver and fire avenues, you can end up outmaneuvered.

You already have a massive downside for deepstriking, the cost.

Units that natively have reserves attached to them rulewise are all to an extent overcosted. AdMech Infiltrators, Terminators, Kommandos, Rough Riders, Striking Scopions, Drop Pods etc.

Scouts, Lictors, MAYBE Mawlocs, and Ghostkeels; are held to be the only ones worth their cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NVM Scouts have a deployment shenanigan not reserve rule.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Deepstrike-everything is literally the most brain-dead strategy in the game. And that's saying something, because there's not a lot of strategy in 40k as is beyond "I move, and I shoot".

Deepstrike should be for a couple, small support units, not the core of the army's killing power. There should be a major downside to committing to mass deepstrike, of which there is none.

Except you are locking out any deepstrike. Being able to totally shut down mass deepstrike means even used in moderation deepstrike is useless. At least, any sort of anti tank deepstrike, anti infantry has some usage here of course.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There is a downside to fielding an army full of conscripts as a counter to mass deepstrike, and that's being an entirely static position. You can't flex as the tactical situation demands it, you can't move out, early, thus preventing you from scoring objectives, and, if you're not observant of maneuver and fire avenues, you can end up outmaneuvered.

Those are not downsides of a reasonable nature for the strength of the build. These are factors anyone must consider, and truth be told this list is less effected by them than many and has far more margin for error. Being out maneuvered when you don't have the most durable screen in the game is always more punishing.

 Quickjager wrote:
You already have a massive downside for deepstriking, the cost.

Units that natively have reserves attached to them rulewise are all to an extent overcosted. AdMech Infiltrators, Terminators, Kommandos, Rough Riders, Striking Scopions, Drop Pods etc.

Scouts, Lictors, MAYBE Mawlocs, and Ghostkeels; are held to be the only ones worth their cost.

Uhh... I don't think so.

Stormtroopers, Tyrannocytes [and inherently anything within them], Scarab Terminators, Trygons, I could go on.

I'm just going to point out: A Drop Pod is 105 points, carries 10 guys, and has a storm bolter. A Tyrannocyte is 138, carries 20, and has 5 storm bolters. A Trygon is 175, carries 30, and is in and of itself a giant scary monster with a crap-top of attacks and wounds!

Also consider the following: A Rhino carries 10 men, and will unload them 12" from the enemy on turn 2, but also have to survive turn 1's shooting, and costs 70 points. Considering that it's a layer of resilience, just like conscripts, and takes over 4 times the cost of itself to blow up in one turn, it's a wonder it isn't also a cause of contention. A Drop Pod carries 10 men, will unload them 9" from the enemy on turn 1, and doesn't have to survive turn 1, ever. They have the same shooting, so it's easy to see why, if a Rhino is fair at 70 points, a Drop Pod is probably extremely fair or undercosted at 105, considering the only counter for it is covering the board in Conscripts, since it happens on turn 1 instead of turn 2 and can't be destroyed while it's waiting to arrive, and will therefore never fail in it's duty.


And that's before we get to other silly things, like 60 point Stormtrooper Squads. Seriously. What the hell, why are these a thing.




As I said, especially since you can deep strike wherever your models fit and there's no such thing as mishaping onto terrain, the features of the board are entirely irrelevant to deep strikers. Just put them down near what you want gone and go. You can drop who-the-hell-cares how may Elysians or Stormtroopers, and just blast everything into oblivion, then drop a second wave next turn! You can burrow up with 60 Hormagaunts and drop down 40 Genestealers, and just overrun your foe beneath the tide!


There are two counterplays to deepstrikers: being a mass deepstriker yourself, and going second, or... covering the board with cheap guys to limit the value of the deepstrike.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Spoiler:

Martel732 wrote:
If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.

4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.

So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?

No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.

By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.

Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.

I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.

You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right?

The tabling phenomenon is not a problem with the IG. It's a problem with the game, and every army in it, and if a push to reduce conscript's toughness on the grounds that they're a mild inconvenience when I'm trying to assault all the IG tanks on turn 1 or 2 to end the game without a fight succeeds, that's only going to be making the tabling phenomenon worse.


The reason tabling is so common is manyfold:

1: Powerful units have access to deepstrike, making movement, range, and position basically a pointless exercise. [Stormtroopers, Genestealers, sometimes Orks, etc.]
2: Transported units are extremely fast, making positioning a pointless exercise. [Dominions, Harlequins]
3: Melee units are insanely destructive, hard to kill, fast, and basically end the game when the reach the enemy. [Genestealers, Berzerkers, Hormagaunts, sometimes Orks]
4: Shooting units are increased in power to compensate, and because melee units negate shooting units the moment they touch them, shooting lists focus on maximizing firepower with a carefully calculated minimum amount of resilience, [IG, Tau, Sisters]
5: Shooting and Melee units can move into position before firing and before charging, ensuring aggression and first-turn will grant an extreme advantage.

When two melee lists come up against each other, they rush to meet each other then toss dice until someone runs out of guys,
When a shooting list fights a melee list, the shooting list pulls out all the breaks and tries to blow up the entirely of the melee list before it reaches combat. The reliability with which they can do this determines the viability of shooting and melee.
When two shooting lists come up against each other, first move wins, because they can kill so many things in the first turn that the second player doesn't have enough left to contest the game.


If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks.



Basically, units are too fast and too killy. Part of the "too killy" is because they're fast, being close confers advantages, and they get to move before shooting.

When I joked a while back I'd trade conscripts for moving the Move phase to the end of the turn, I'm half serious.

If GW would take the time to rebuild 40k into alternating activations instead of a clunky IgoUgo game, most of those problems would be put to rest. I was really hopeful they'd move that way for 40k, since the rest of the industry has been experimenting with it lately.

Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.

There is almost nothing worth putting in a Tyrannocyte because the assault units are already fast and for the cost you can run another unit of 13 genestealers, or pretty much any other small base unit. So you're paying 138 points for... 5 stormbolters, amazing. No one runs them.

Trygon has 7 attacks re-rolling 1s, pretty good. But it has to be in synapse and if you want to deploy its fellow units they also have to be out of 9 inch. So no matter what they are still 9 inches out. It in the end isn't THAT scary because it is only T6 and is a monster meaning I can target it pretty easily. They still have uses especially in regards to mass-burrow transports but most people would take the Mawloc instead because it is cheaper, and once again your melee assault units are so fast they don't need a transport. People seems to like Mawlocs because of their raw damage potential is great and you can have like 4 of them literally 1 inch away from an enemy units at a REALLY low cost.

So yea, the Tyranids got great options compared to other armies, but they STILL aren't worth the points because they're so fast. Because of inherent army differences.

I could go on.

Scions are fine, Plasma guns are SUPER undercosted and the Command Squad was not thought out (4guys with 4 special weapons?). Universally accepted.

Scarab Terminators can't say one way or another SilverAlien plays Chaos maybe he will bring up a point.

Also NO ONE is running Drop pods because spending 5% of your total army just to move MAYBE 10% of your army once and provide nothing, is dumb.

ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.

Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.

argonak wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Spoiler:

Martel732 wrote:
If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.

4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.

So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?

No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.

By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.

Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.

I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.

You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right?

The tabling phenomenon is not a problem with the IG. It's a problem with the game, and every army in it, and if a push to reduce conscript's toughness on the grounds that they're a mild inconvenience when I'm trying to assault all the IG tanks on turn 1 or 2 to end the game without a fight succeeds, that's only going to be making the tabling phenomenon worse.


The reason tabling is so common is manyfold:

1: Powerful units have access to deepstrike, making movement, range, and position basically a pointless exercise. [Stormtroopers, Genestealers, sometimes Orks, etc.]
2: Transported units are extremely fast, making positioning a pointless exercise. [Dominions, Harlequins]
3: Melee units are insanely destructive, hard to kill, fast, and basically end the game when the reach the enemy. [Genestealers, Berzerkers, Hormagaunts, sometimes Orks]
4: Shooting units are increased in power to compensate, and because melee units negate shooting units the moment they touch them, shooting lists focus on maximizing firepower with a carefully calculated minimum amount of resilience, [IG, Tau, Sisters]
5: Shooting and Melee units can move into position before firing and before charging, ensuring aggression and first-turn will grant an extreme advantage.

When two melee lists come up against each other, they rush to meet each other then toss dice until someone runs out of guys,
When a shooting list fights a melee list, the shooting list pulls out all the breaks and tries to blow up the entirely of the melee list before it reaches combat. The reliability with which they can do this determines the viability of shooting and melee.
When two shooting lists come up against each other, first move wins, because they can kill so many things in the first turn that the second player doesn't have enough left to contest the game.


If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks.



Basically, units are too fast and too killy. Part of the "too killy" is because they're fast, being close confers advantages, and they get to move before shooting.

When I joked a while back I'd trade conscripts for moving the Move phase to the end of the turn, I'm half serious.

If GW would take the time to rebuild 40k into alternating activations instead of a clunky IgoUgo game, most of those problems would be put to rest. I was really hopeful they'd move that way for 40k, since the rest of the industry has been experimenting with it lately.

As a DZC player, I'm not super into alternating activations, but it does help.

I do think just moving the move phase to be the last phase would be enough though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
There is almost nothing worth putting in a Tyrannocyte because the assault units are already fast and for the cost you can run another unit of 13 genestealers, or pretty much any other small base unit. So you're paying 138 points for... 5 stormbolters, amazing. No one runs them.

Trygon has 7 attacks re-rolling 1s, pretty good. But it has to be in synapse and if you want to deploy its fellow units they also have to be out of 9 inch. So no matter what they are still 9 inches out. It in the end isn't THAT scary because it is only T6 and is a monster meaning I can target it pretty easily. They still have uses especially in regards to mass-burrow transports but most people would take the Mawloc instead because it is cheaper, and once again your melee assault units are so fast they don't need a transport. People seems to like Mawlocs because of their raw damage potential is great and you can have like 4 of them literally 1 inch away from an enemy units at a REALLY low cost.

So yea, the Tyranids got great options compared to other armies, but they STILL aren't worth the points because they're so fast. Because of inherent army differences.

I could go on.

Scions are fine, Plasma guns are SUPER undercosted and the Command Squad was not thought out (4guys with 4 special weapons?). Universally accepted.

Scarab Terminators can't say one way or another SilverAlien plays Chaos maybe he will bring up a point.

Also NO ONE is running Drop pods because spending 5% of your total army just to move MAYBE 10% of your army once and provide nothing, is dumb.

Well, a guy I know runs 3 Tyrannocytes. In addition, Hive Commander only works on 1 unit. So if you have 2 units of Hormagaunts and 2 units of Genestealers, only one of them is going to be making to to the enemy on turn 1, and all the ones that don't are going to be taking enemy fire. 8+D6 requires a roll of a 7 to get to get you as close as a Tyrannocyte will. Hormagaunts also can make that charge-out-of-deep strike a 8" charge, thanks to an upgrade that adds 1 to their charge distances. Even with re-rolling charges, there's a big difference between 9", 10", 11", and 12". Also, make it a Trygon Prime.

It's not like Rhinos are moving troops more than once either, and doing much afterwords. I've never once seen someone get back into a transport.


I look at it this way: a Razorback is about the same price as a Drop Pod. A Drop Pod offers superior protection for the troops within, faster delivery, and larger transport capacity, a Razorback offers the ability to continue to make itself useful.

In addition, the half drop on the board clause isn't much of an obstacle. 10-man squads of Guardsman, Termigaunts, and Cultists, and 5-man squads of marines, are cheap.

Yea, that's why people are using Razorbacks or Rhinos, because they can keep moving and screening. What are you getting at?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IG GSC. lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot about Trygon Prime, that makes them pretty good.

 Quickjager wrote:
Yea, that's why people are using Razorbacks or Rhinos, because they can keep moving and screening. What are you getting at?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IG GSC. lol.

It's not to cost of plasmaguns that makes stormtrooper command squads excessively good. I know this because I don't see anyone fielding the ordinary command squads full of plasmaguns, who are also BS3+.

It's the cheap deep-strike ability that makes stormtroopers way too good. They have plasmaguns, and they can be put anywhere, and there's nothing the opponent can do about them because they weren't on the board at the time the opposition went.



I'm seeing Tyranids with burrowing/dropping 'gaunts and 'stealers, Tyranids with footslogging 'gaunts and 'stealers, and a single Tyranid player running all MC's and Tyranid Warriors.

I faced stormtrooper drop, but he was only half committed to it.

I've faced a guy with an army of 20 Scarab Terminators and 40 Cultists, dropping the former in wherever.

There was also a BA guy who deepstriked almost his entire army. Unfortunately for him, he also charged a Lifta-Wagon and tried to out-melee a 30-man blob of Orks buffed by Ghazskull and a Wierdboy, but that's besides the point.



Null-deploy and deep-strike was excessively powerful last edition. Deep-strike has been buffed, but to compensate you can't go full null-deploy, but half-null is still very powerful.


Also, IG + GSC is like vanilla IG, but better, because it also has Genestealers in it.

 Quickjager wrote:
Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IG GSC. lol.

Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, IG + GSC is like vanilla IG, but better, because it also has Genestealers in it.

It's also better than tyranids and GSC because it has IG in it. Or is mostly IG.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IG GSC. lol.

Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, IG + GSC is like vanilla IG, but better, because it also has Genestealers in it.

It's also better than tyranids and GSC because it has IG in it. Or is mostly IG.

That's completely wrong, though.

I just went over and skimmed the last few pages of Tyranid Tactica.

The only thing I saw about conscripts was a player beating them, and I did see a lot of talk about "units that deliver themselves".

I did see a list allying in IG for the purpose of mortar batteries.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IG GSC. lol.

Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, IG + GSC is like vanilla IG, but better, because it also has Genestealers in it.

It's also better than tyranids and GSC because it has IG in it. Or is mostly IG.

Not around here. All it means is that Tyranid players have universally lower skill level.

From my game experience so far, land raiders are still overcosted. Unfortunately. Or perhaps IG guns are that much undercosted. It's hard to tell still.

The recosting of units in the marine codex does give me some hope, though, even if I have to wait a bit to get the goodies.

"Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition. "

I think you seriously overestimate how much damage CC really does this edition. Especially because people can walk right out of it.

 Marmatag wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IG GSC. lol.

Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, IG + GSC is like vanilla IG, but better, because it also has Genestealers in it.

It's also better than tyranids and GSC because it has IG in it. Or is mostly IG.

Not around here. All it means is that Tyranid players have universally lower skill level.

That's not true. I never said that. In fact, most of the Tyranid players I know I consider quite good at this game.

And, of course, in the last few pages of the Tyranids tactica thread, I'm seeing 0 lists including conscripts. Lots of allied GSC, no allied Conscripts.

I'm seeing:
Genestealers and Trygons
Genestealer and Genestealers
Trygons and Hormagaunts
'gaunts and Tyrannocytes

But no Conscripts.


I'll say what I think again: I think that Space Marine players are upset because a strategy that they like isn't stomping on us.

I'm going to point out that Guilliman and Razorbacks is doing better than Conscripts and Manticores, too.

I still think that, since the Space Marines can't do mass melee as good as Tyranids and Chaos [whose mass melee lists both stand a very good chance of defeating IG], and can't do gunline shooting as well as the Guard or Tau, and can't do close-assault shooting as well as Necrons or Sisters, they need to leverage the fact that they're fairly decent at all three of those things to win. Guard has a weakness to melee, so exploit it, but also remember that you can't melee as good as full melee forces, and use your ranged support to support your melee troops and cripple threats to them, and make sure that, like ours, the units in your army are all supporting and working together. If you commit to full gunline, full close-range shooting, or full mass melee, you're going to be beat, because if Guard couldn't deal with Space Marine mass melee, there'd be no way for them to deal with Tyranid mass melee or Chaos mass melee.

That's why it's so hard to develop a viable single-unit counter but easier to think up a full army, because the entire army works together, not just a Land Raider full of Stermguard.