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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.

Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.

Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).

Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...

My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.

I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.

*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.

Martel732 wrote:
From my game experience so far, land raiders are still overcosted. Unfortunately. Or perhaps IG guns are that much undercosted. It's hard to tell still.

The recosting of units in the marine codex does give me some hope, though, even if I have to wait a bit to get the goodies.

"Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition. "

I think you seriously overestimate how much damage CC really does this edition. Especially because people can walk right out of it.

I don't think you've played and watched games against Ork and Tyranid mass melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.

Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.

Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).

Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...

My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.

I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.

*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.

I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.

"I don't think you've played and watched games against Ork and Tyranid mass melee. "

Okay, marine CC capability. That's what I meant. I know Orks and Nids can kill a lot of gak in CC.

And for the record, mass deep strike or whatever, is not a strategy I ever liked or advocated. It has always had critical flaws ever since 5th. I'm looking for any strat at all. I suspect the recosting in the codex might give me some new angles.

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't think you've played and watched games against Ork and Tyranid mass melee. "

Okay, marine CC capability. That's what I meant. I know Orks and Nids can kill a lot of gak in CC.

And for the record, mass deep strike or whatever, is not a strategy I ever liked or advocated. It has always had critical flaws ever since 5th. I'm looking for any strat at all. I suspect the recosting in the codex might give me some new angles.

I'll help:

Here's the 2000 point guard list I proposed earlier:


It's not the nastiest thing I could cook up, but it's also not expecting to face the nastiest thing my enemy could cook up. If I was doing that, it would involve Baneblades, Stormtroopers, and Vultures. We also know that the nastiest things you, Blood Angels, could cook up is some variety of having lots of Storm Ravens.

Here's what I propose to respond to and counter it:


It's also not the nastiest thing in the world, but it's definitely capable of holding its own, I think.

Strategy outline

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.

Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.

Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).

Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...

My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.

I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.

*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.

You realize, that to get 400 shots, you would have to let a unit that is, lets say, 7" by 7", move within 12" of your unit. That means the front rank is 5" away from you. I mean, ok. That's a lot of shots. But don't you think you bear some responsibility for placing yourself in a position where they could do that?

You're not letting your opponent measure only the closest guy and count all of them in range are you?

On a point by point basis, if they're all in range (hah), conscripts are indeed 30% more efficient per hit than regular guardsmen. But if you remove their order abilities, they're less points efficient, and there is no longer any reason to take them. Everyone will just take regular guardsman. Which is fine with me honestly.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.

Well for one thing, that's Harlequins not Craftworld Eldar. But also, if the starweavers flew over the conscripts and then charged, then the turn before they did that they had to be within 12" rapid fire range of the conscripts. I'm guessing that IG player is one of those who thinks that conscripts aren't worth the points for orders and searchlights? Because otherwise I don't understand how the starweavers didn't get popped. Starweavers aren't terribly sturdy, actually... it wouldn't be unlikely for the IG AT to pop them and then the harliquens inside get murdered by the conscripts. Honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what kind of situation happened to allow the Harlequins to do this...

If he didn't fully buff his conscripts then whatever, I don't think they're OP without orders and searchlights and I imagine a lot of tactics can beat them.

argonak wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:


Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).

Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...

My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.

I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.

*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.

You realize, that to get 400 shots, you would have to let a unit that is, lets say, 7" by 7", move within 12" of your unit. That means the front rank is 5" away from you. I mean, ok. That's a lot of shots. But don't you think you bear some responsibility for placing yourself in a position where they could do that?

You're not letting your opponent measure only the closest guy and count all of them in range are you?

On a point by point basis, if they're all in range (hah), conscripts are indeed 30% more efficient per hit than regular guardsmen. But if you remove their order abilities, they're less points efficient, and there is no longer any reason to take them. Everyone will just take regular guardsman. Which is fine with me honestly.

Yes, as I was trying to explain, I only did that in one game as a desperation tactic. I simply don't know what to do about conscripts. Shoot them from max range and have the conscripts return fire - with the entirety of their squishy back line artillery chipping in, so that I slowly chip away 3 point meat shields while they delete my army a couple units at a time... or get close enough to shoot their squishy back line, but allow them to take those 400 shots you're so confused about me allowing. There is a third option that's similar to the first, except melee units run in to chip away at them and the conscripts just get rapid fire for 2 shots each (with the fall back and shoot order) instead of frfsrf for 2 shots each. No matter what melee units I choose, the math always show them killing an insufficient number of conscripts while dying very fast.

I'm really tired of people being so incredulous that conscripts would actually be in range to shoot stuff and I wonder if you play against guard that just are too lazy to move their models. Let me put it like this. A base is 1" wide. A conscript can move 6", and gets rapid fire up to 12". That means it has an 18" range that it can get to rapid-fire range in any direction, which is a 37" diameter zone of control. 37" is a freaking big circle. Yeah, if you count the whole unit as being in rapid fire range, the bubble will shrink a lot. A unit is about 7" deep (7x7 is 49, though technically the bases aren't quite an inch AND you can push them together closer than that, but whatever), so let's call it a 30" bubble. A bubble that moves every turn.

To go back to the starweavers, how on earth does a transport with a 16" move get over the conscripts without hitting that bubble on both sides? And oh yeah, remember that's just for rapid-fire (aka 200 shots from 50man unit). The full range bubble is 54" so good luck avoiding that.

And 24" is all they really need for Eldar foot anyway! Against typical Eldar, 100 shots is 50 hits (searchlight gives BS4+), 25 wounds (T3 because Elves are weak), and from there of course armor varies a lot by unit, but the very few units not killed outright still die to an average morale roll. This is every single non-wraith Craftworld Eldar infantry option in the whole codex, even at max squad size. They all die to conscripts. Conscripts! In one round of shooting! At max range! They are not just a meat shield, and their range is not pointless. They are fething deadly. I may be repeating myself.

Just remove the orders, that's all it takes to make them reasonable again. No frfsrf, no shooting after withdrawing from combat. Those things are the problem that needs to stop.

I had an... odd idea. Why not disallow conscripts from falling back, on the basis of their terrible coordination and training. So getting into melee doesn't mean chipping away at ablative wounds that fall back so the big guns can fire, but rather forces both sides to commit. They are still a screen, but it prevents some of the more abusive tactics where conscripts keep your important units perfectly safe even as they target any enemy they choose.

That looks like a decent matchup, but I'd never use that list as a general list. That's the problem. It's a bit like Tau from 7th; if I list tailored of Riptides, I had a slim chance. But a tournament list? No chance.

SilverAlien wrote:
I had an... odd idea. Why not disallow conscripts from falling back, on the basis of their terrible coordination and training. So getting into melee doesn't mean chipping away at ablative wounds that fall back so the big guns can fire, but rather forces both sides to commit. They are still a screen, but it prevents some of the more abusive tactics where conscripts keep your important units perfectly safe even as they target any enemy they choose.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Spoiler:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.

Well for one thing, that's Harlequins not Craftworld Eldar. But also, if the starweavers flew over the conscripts and then charged, then the turn before they did that they had to be within 12" rapid fire range of the conscripts. I'm guessing that IG player is one of those who thinks that conscripts aren't worth the points for orders and searchlights? Because otherwise I don't understand how the starweavers didn't get popped. Starweavers aren't terribly sturdy, actually... it wouldn't be unlikely for the IG AT to pop them and then the harliquens inside get murdered by the conscripts. Honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what kind of situation happened to allow the Harlequins to do this...

If he didn't fully buff his conscripts then whatever, I don't think they're OP without orders and searchlights and I imagine a lot of tactics can beat them.

argonak wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:


Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).

Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...

My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.

I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.

*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.

You realize, that to get 400 shots, you would have to let a unit that is, lets say, 7" by 7", move within 12" of your unit. That means the front rank is 5" away from you. I mean, ok. That's a lot of shots. But don't you think you bear some responsibility for placing yourself in a position where they could do that?

You're not letting your opponent measure only the closest guy and count all of them in range are you?

On a point by point basis, if they're all in range (hah), conscripts are indeed 30% more efficient per hit than regular guardsmen. But if you remove their order abilities, they're less points efficient, and there is no longer any reason to take them. Everyone will just take regular guardsman. Which is fine with me honestly.

Yes, as I was trying to explain, I only did that in one game as a desperation tactic. I simply don't know what to do about conscripts. Shoot them from max range and have the conscripts return fire - with the entirety of their squishy back line artillery chipping in, so that I slowly chip away 3 point meat shields while they delete my army a couple units at a time... or get close enough to shoot their squishy back line, but allow them to take those 400 shots you're so confused about me allowing. There is a third option that's similar to the first, except melee units run in to chip away at them and the conscripts just get rapid fire for 2 shots each (with the fall back and shoot order) instead of frfsrf for 2 shots each. No matter what melee units I choose, the math always show them killing an insufficient number of conscripts while dying very fast.

I'm really tired of people being so incredulous that conscripts would actually be in range to shoot stuff and I wonder if you play against guard that just are too lazy to move their models. Let me put it like this. A base is 1" wide. A conscript can move 6", and gets rapid fire up to 12". That means it has an 18" range that it can get to rapid-fire range in any direction, which is a 37" diameter zone of control. 37" is a freaking big circle. Yeah, if you count the whole unit as being in rapid fire range, the bubble will shrink a lot. A unit is about 7" deep (7x7 is 49, though technically the bases aren't quite an inch AND you can push them together closer than that, but whatever), so let's call it a 30" bubble. A bubble that moves every turn.

To go back to the starweavers, how on earth does a transport with a 16" move get over the conscripts without hitting that bubble on both sides? And oh yeah, remember that's just for rapid-fire (aka 200 shots from 50man unit). The full range bubble is 54" so good luck avoiding that.

And 24" is all they really need for Eldar foot anyway! Against typical Eldar, 100 shots is 50 hits (searchlight gives BS4+), 25 wounds (T3 because Elves are weak), and from there of course armor varies a lot by unit, but the very few units not killed outright still die to an average morale roll. This is every single non-wraith Craftworld Eldar infantry option in the whole codex, even at max squad size. They all die to conscripts. Conscripts! In one round of shooting! At max range! They are not just a meat shield, and their range is not pointless. They are fething deadly. I may be repeating myself.

Just remove the orders, that's all it takes to make them reasonable again. No frfsrf, no shooting after withdrawing from combat. Those things are the problem that needs to stop.

The problem is that conscripts are in a weird spot. They're only really good for two reasons:

1. They cost 1 pt less than a normal guardsman (for BS5+ instead of BS4+).
2. You can get them in groups of up to 50. Which makes giving them orders more efficient versus regular guard.

But if you can't give them orders, then they're not worth taking at all. The things people are most worried about with conscripts can be duplicated by regular guardsmen for relatively small increase in cost. If conscripts are eliminated or nerfed, people will just take regular guardsmen to fulfill the same function.

50 conscripts, 150 points, 1 platoon commander 30 points total 180 points. 200 shots at bs 5+ is 66 hits.
33 guardsmen, 132 points, 2 company commanders 60 points, total 192 points. 132 shots at bs 4+ is also 66 hits.

Excluding the characters since they're probably standing 6" backwards. Guardsmen will have 17 fewer wounds, but Conscripts can't bubble wrap and fire effectively at the same time.

That's fine. It's a bit of an oversimplification of all the pros and cons of having MSU instead of big blobs, but if taking away orders ultimately results in taking away 17 wounds without reducing the firepower, that's also an acceptable nerf.

 Deathypoo wrote:
That's fine. It's a bit of an oversimplification of all the pros and cons of having MSU instead of big blobs, but if taking away orders ultimately results in taking away 17 wounds without reducing the firepower, that's also an acceptable nerf.

That's not a nerf, that's outright deletion. Take away orders and there is no reason to ever bring them.

Are you kidding? How is there not a point to bring them even without orders?

 argonak wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
That's fine. It's a bit of an oversimplification of all the pros and cons of having MSU instead of big blobs, but if taking away orders ultimately results in taking away 17 wounds without reducing the firepower, that's also an acceptable nerf.

That's not a nerf, that's outright deletion. Take away orders and there is no reason to ever bring them.

I guess 50 cheap, unbreakable wounds isn't good enough.

I absolutely disagree, argonak.

I think conscripts would still perform their function (essentially the pike line in a pike and shotte army) even without orders.

If you are bringing conscripts (or unupgraded IG infantry squads, for that matter) for their firepower, you're not quite handling it correctly - there are much better firepower options in the IG army list.

The problem is that those firepower options are glass cannons in melee, or can be outright stopped from firing ever by a melee unit, and conscripts solve this problem nicely and without cutting much into the existing firepower (because of the cheap cost).

So I believe taking away Orders is certainly an understandable and useful nerf that preserves the role and utility of conscripts while reducing their offensive output and points efficiency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, if I may go on, I believe that conscripts with orders overperform - conscripts are cheap because they are supposed to be a wall without cutting meaningfully into the firepower of the army (after all, what use is a wall with no guns behind it? Just an annoyingly tall speedbump!)

However, adding meaningfully to the army's firepower is what bringing conscripts does now with Orders, if you spend the time and energy (and points) to bring them the officers required.to manage them. That's not right and shouldn't be the role of conscripts. I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread or in another thread on the same topic that you could conceivably outright remove conscripts lasguns entirely and they'd still be useful for their designed function, though that'd be a bit unfluffy.

Martel732 wrote:That looks like a decent matchup, but I'd never use that list as a general list. That's the problem. It's a bit like Tau from 7th; if I list tailored of Riptides, I had a slim chance. But a tournament list? No chance.

Sure, it's not a tournament list, but it can handle quite a variety of foes, including the majority style of lists used in the league right now at my local game store. Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway. The Artillery list is good enough for league play, and can probably manage at the low end of tournaments, but if you're talking about trying to win a serious tournament, I'd recommend something consisting mostly of Stormravens, with something tough for your boots on the ground.

How does 3 Stormravens, a Fellblade, a Captain, a Lieutenant, and a Librarian sound, then?

But anyway, I wouldn't call the list I posited a tailored list. I think it's a step better than most of what I see floating around a league, but might struggle with the Nidzilla and all Land-Raiders list. It can definitely fight the IG gunline though, and come out on top.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.

Well for one thing, that's Harlequins not Craftworld Eldar. But also, if the starweavers flew over the conscripts and then charged, then the turn before they did that they had to be within 12" rapid fire range of the conscripts. I'm guessing that IG player is one of those who thinks that conscripts aren't worth the points for orders and searchlights? Because otherwise I don't understand how the starweavers didn't get popped. Starweavers aren't terribly sturdy, actually... it wouldn't be unlikely for the IG AT to pop them and then the harliquens inside get murdered by the conscripts. Honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what kind of situation happened to allow the Harlequins to do this...

If he didn't fully buff his conscripts then whatever, I don't think they're OP without orders and searchlights and I imagine a lot of tactics can beat them.

He did. 50 Conscripts vs. Starweaver, up close do an average of 5 wounds, and that's assuming they've all converged onto the thing. There were 6 starweavers, and he discovered that IG antitank is virtually ineffective against them, because it seems to be that Starweavers are in a unique position of being more vulnerable to IG Lasguns than IG Lascannons. He dumped autocannon and lascannon and tank fire into them, and several of them died, but several more made it through, and that was all that was needed.

Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway.

I have no idea where you're getting this. It's so not true, at all.

There are a variety of guard armies because guard is totally OP. Manticore spam / Wyvern spam is common enough, too.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Eldar mech spam is actually solid. Eldar have decent army options.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.

Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.

 Marmatag wrote:

Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway.

I have no idea where you're getting this. It's so not true, at all.

There are a variety of guard armies because guard is totally OP. Manticore spam / Wyvern spam is common enough, too.

Let me put it this way: If I wanted to pull out all the stops, I'd play a list consisting of Vultures, Stormtrooper Command Squads, maybe a Vendetta, and either Conscripts or Guardsmen for turn-1 board presence. I'm actually leaning towards Guardsmen over conscripts for this purpose, because each guard squad on the board allows for another Stormtrooper Command Squad in deepstrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.

Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.

Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.

Ouch.

I'm glad I'm not facing that regularly. I'd probably begin by approaching the matter with Meltaguns. The -1 Damage hurts, but Meltaguns will help overcome it. Assaulting them doesn't completely work, but it will stop them from unloading [since you have to unload before you move], so I can see it as a last resort if you have a big squad.

13 wounds is also an unfortunately magical number where, instead of needing three solid meltagun wounds to take it out, you need four, and doubly unfortunate that the shield kicks that up to five. Dominions in a Immolator can probably do it, with 7 shots between them, but it's going to be close.

Shadowswords and Falchions are probably a must-have in the matchup.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway.

I have no idea where you're getting this. It's so not true, at all.

There are a variety of guard armies because guard is totally OP. Manticore spam / Wyvern spam is common enough, too.

Let me put it this way: If I wanted to pull out all the stops, I'd play a list consisting of Vultures, Stormtrooper Command Squads, maybe a Vendetta, and either Conscripts or Guardsmen for turn-1 board presence. I'm actually leaning towards Guardsmen over conscripts for this purpose, because each guard squad on the board allows for another Stormtrooper Command Squad in deepstrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.

Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.

Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.

Ouch.

Yeah, that's not the IG I'm losing to. I might ALSO lose to your proposal, but it would be more of a game, I think.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.

It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.

I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.

Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.

Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.

Nah it's d3 auto hit str 10 ap-4 1 damage. It's super deadly though.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway.

I have no idea where you're getting this. It's so not true, at all.

There are a variety of guard armies because guard is totally OP. Manticore spam / Wyvern spam is common enough, too.

Let me put it this way: If I wanted to pull out all the stops, I'd play a list consisting of Vultures, Stormtrooper Command Squads, maybe a Vendetta, and either Conscripts or Guardsmen for turn-1 board presence. I'm actually leaning towards Guardsmen over conscripts for this purpose, because each guard squad on the board allows for another Stormtrooper Command Squad in deepstrike.

Yeah, that's not the IG I'm losing to. I might ALSO lose to your proposal, but it would be more of a game, I think.

Well, of course you might also lose to and with my proposal, but it shouldn't be a guaranteed loss. It should be closer to 50/50, skewed slightly depending on deployment zones. Vanguard Strike and Search and Destroy certainly favor the Space Marines, Spearhead Assault and Hammer and Anvil certainly favor the guard, and I think there's a slightly advantage to the Space Marines on Dawn of War and Frontline Assault, but not a massive one.

Manticore/Wyvern/Pask/Punisher spam is common because it's easy to get a lot of those thing. I don't know anyone who is willing to buy 3 Vultures and 50 plasmagun stormtroopers on the drop of a hat. I see Guard Stormtrooper drop around, and it's somewhat scary, but they're only half committed to it since nobody can afford or is willing to chase the newest and hottest thing, which makes it easier to deal with. We already all have lots of conscripts and artillery and tanks, and have been running this list for 3 editions, and it's passably good but not the best of the best, so we're all running it.

Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.

Wait for dual raven raven guard lists.

Xenomancers wrote:Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.

Sisters do to, like a hot knife. According to a local Necron player, so does Necrons.

Tyranid mass melee drop makes for a close, if somewhat repetitive and dry game. Berzerker Boxes makes for a similar game, and can be very swingy based on a few die rolls from observation.


Conscript-Artillery sits somewhere just above most 'casual' lists, but well enough below everyone's 'cheese' lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.

Wait for dual raven raven guard lists.

Yeah. That's going to hurt.

Where are searchlights in the index? I thought they got rid of searchlights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.

Sisters do to, like a hot knife. According to a local Necron player, so does Necrons.

Necrons that pack a squad of flayed ones and a command barge should get a fairly reliable first turn charge with a CP reserved for a reroll.

20 Flayed Ones will make minced meat out of conscripts in a single turn. They might not kill all of them, but they will reduce them to ineffectiveness.
You could also hit them with MWBD + Tesla Immortals, but that's nowhere near effective enough to kill a big blob.
You could also get a full warrior squad into rapid fire range, but doing that leaves you open to a conscript counter-charge if you don't roll well, which leads me to believe that your local necron player is talking about flayed ones.

Of course, necrons also have one of the best sniper units in the game with deathmarks. Because they can deepstrike with rapid fire sniper weapons, you cannot hide your commissar from them. Not and have your conscripts actually do their job.

Necrons have a fair number of advantages against conscript spam.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Where are searchlights in the index? I thought they got rid of searchlights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.

Sisters do to, like a hot knife. According to a local Necron player, so does Necrons.

Necrons that pack a squad of flayed ones and a command barge should get a fairly reliable first turn charge with a CP reserved for a reroll.

20 Flayed Ones will make minced meat out of conscripts in a single turn. They might not kill all of them, but they will reduce them to ineffectiveness.
You could also hit them with MWBD + Tesla Immortals, but that's nowhere near effective enough to kill a big blob.
You could also get a full warrior squad into rapid fire range, but doing that leaves you open to a conscript counter-charge if you don't roll well, which leads me to believe that your local necron player is talking about flayed ones.

Of course, necrons also have one of the best sniper units in the game with deathmarks. Because they can deepstrike with rapid fire sniper weapons, you cannot hide your commissar from them. Not and have your conscripts actually do their job.

Necrons have a fair number of advantages against conscript spam.

Forgeworld. The searchlight we're talking about is the Sabre Defense Searchlight. It's 20 points. Select a friendly [Regiment] Infantry unit and an enemy unit, the nominated friendly unit gets +1 to hit firing at the enemy unit. It doesn't actually work on artillery and AA guns, which is silly, because it's literally one of those searchlights you see in the Battle of Britain that are used to mark targets for AA guns, so instead of buffing Hydras and such, they're buffing Conscripts in a way nobody ever intended. Think of it this way: for 20 points, you can turn a Conscript unit into a Guardsman unit. Considering it would ordinarily cost 50 points to do this, you can see why Sabres are kind of OP. It also can turn Guardsmen into Veterans, but Veterans are already 20 points more than Guardsmen. Veterans can be buffed to be the ultimate sharpshooters.


The little sabre lights are in a weird position. When they first were released for this edition, they could buff everything, and it was realized that you could get a BS2+ Twin Punisher Vulture. As far as buffing Leman Russes and Guardsmen goes, it's literally the same price as actually buying them a ballistic skill increase, and it seems fair if you're using it on artillery units and heavy weapons teams too. Until you start using it on Baneblades and Vultures and Vendettas, and now you have a problem. So they removed it's ability to buff vehicles, which leaves the only thing that it can actually buff and not have been less cost-effective than just buying another unit as Conscripts, which in turn is making it still OP because it gives Conscripts a 50 point upgrade for 20. In this capacity, it's also usually going to be better than Markerlights, which is another problem.


The local necron player said he uses something with the Deceiver, Monolith, Night Scythe, and Zandrekh to achieve turn-1 charges everywhere.