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sossen wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
the new Aggressors disagree with you.

They still aren't good at doing it because they lack deep strike. I think the only feasible way of getting enough of them close enough to fire is the new RG stratagem - assuming that the AM player hasn't blocked those deep strike areas with scout sentinels and that you get turn 1. Even if the AM player doesn't do that I still don't think it's viable since your aggressors will be sitting ducks afterwards.

Buff them with the +1 hit servator from the rhino primaris so that they hit on 2's. Bring an additional captain for lulz. You don't need them to get close. You just need them to get in range. They will win the 13-24" shooting war.

They push out crap tons of basic shots. They wield assault 6 weapons in one hand, and assault d6 launchers in the other, ignore the -1 for advancing and firing (IIRC), or shoot twice per turn. They've got mobility, range, and volume. On top of which they're on par with termies (3+ sv, 2 wounds, T5) so you just park an apothecary next to them to preserve their numbers.

And this isn't a squad you bring specifically to counter conscripts. This is a squad you bring to the table in order to counter everything. They're purpose specific, but that purpose is killing infantry. So they're very generally useful.

I think those units will help. How much remains to be seen.

Martel732 wrote:
If only there were a weapon that lays down a template and everything under it is automatically hit and also penetrates flak armor that has extremely short range.

If only Fragioso dreadnoughts could ride in drop pods. In tandem with this, if only drop pods could get you within flamer range.

Instead, they just die like little crappy toasters to the IG trying to get within range.

Martel732 wrote:
Instead, they just die like little crappy toasters to the IG trying to get within range.

The only viable way to run dreadnoughts now is dual autos, or auto-twin las, with Azrael for the 4++.

 Arandmoor wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
the new Aggressors disagree with you.

They still aren't good at doing it because they lack deep strike. I think the only feasible way of getting enough of them close enough to fire is the new RG stratagem - assuming that the AM player hasn't blocked those deep strike areas with scout sentinels and that you get turn 1. Even if the AM player doesn't do that I still don't think it's viable since your aggressors will be sitting ducks afterwards.

Buff them with the +1 hit servator from the rhino primaris so that they hit on 2's. Bring an additional captain for lulz. You don't need them to get close. You just need them to get in range. They will win the 13-24" shooting war.

They push out crap tons of basic shots. They wield assault 6 weapons in one hand, and assault d6 launchers in the other, ignore the -1 for advancing and firing (IIRC), and shoot twice per turn. They've got mobility, range, and volume. On top of which they're basically termies (2+ sv, 2 wounds) so you just park an apothecary next to them to preserve their numbers.

The aggressors only have a 3+ save which is a bummer, T5 is good but doesn't quite make up for it. They will probably outshoot the conscripts themselves but they are going to get hammered by the gunline. Between manticores, heavy bolters in various forms, scions dropping in with plasma guns etc they can probably kill at least 10 aggressors in a turn.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Instead, they just die like little crappy toasters to the IG trying to get within range.

The only viable way to run dreadnoughts now is dual autos, or auto-twin las, with Azrael for the 4++.

Ravens.

sossen wrote:


The aggressors only have a 3+ save which is a bummer, T5 is good but doesn't quite make up for it. They will probably outshoot the conscripts themselves but they are going to get hammered by the gunline. Between manticores, heavy bolters in various forms, scions dropping in with plasma guns etc they can probably kill at least 10 aggressors in a turn.

Yeah. Get my codex tomorrow, so there are bound to be errors here and there. I fixed a few of them after reading the 3D's article.

Still, Aggressors are one of your anti-infantry units as SM. Along with Assault Squads, Vanguard Vets (the CC ones...not the shooty ones), and devastators with heavy bolters.

I've been playing around with the idea of an Imperial Fist list built around Centurion Devastators or Aggressors as the primary Anti Infantry squad of a heavy support detachment (that 3-pred stratagem is sexy). Since cover is apparently impossible to find in this edition, I was thinking about actually putting a fortification into the list and just slap down an Aegis Defense line. Then park the Devastators/Aggressors in it for cover backed up with a Rhino Primaris, a Captain, and an apothicary.

So I'd have a 2+ or 3+ sv unit in cover that ignore cover themselves and get an additional +1 cover save when being shot at with -1 AP weapons. The rhino would buff whomever needed it the most that turn.

Either a pred for AV work (I was thinking of running two quad las preds for AV fire, but with the tank/monster hunter strat I'm looking at a trio of pred AC/Dual las preds instead. Either way I can just have both turret weapons available on all the tanks, so I can test both configurations). Or the devs/aggressors for AI firepower.

I'll know more once I get my codex tomorrow morning.

Marines seem to be the army that was having trouble chewing through conscripts, but they have AI firepower available. It's just not that popular.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Instead, they just die like little crappy toasters to the IG trying to get within range.

The only viable way to run dreadnoughts now is dual autos, or auto-twin las, with Azrael for the 4++.

Ravens.

I don't think dreads will get the benefit of the chapter tactic. So no -1 to hit beyond 12".

Martel732 wrote:"Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! "

But I need to in order to be able to chop though that many wounds. That's why the IG is busted right now. The math people is providing involves full tac squads are whatever. Remnants of squads can't do a thing to conscripts.

I agree with you, but other gunlines don't have 100 spare wounds for 300 pts. Conscripts raise my temporal costs too high for any aspect of my list to be viable. Conscripts never have to move really, if they are deployed on objectives. They don't even have to shoot to contribute. They just have to BE.

"nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning."

More like an insurmountable obstacle to keep melee from EVER winning. That's the problem. You can't forget the temporal component here.

I equate mass melee to mass deepstrike, because inherently a melee list must either be mass deepstrike [tyranids] or rhino rush [berzerkers], which works on a similar principle.

Because of the nature of the rules surrounding melee troops, if slow mass-melee lists had a chance against gunlines, then fast mass-melee lists would be absolutely wrecking everyone and everything. I already hate playing against mass-melee armies because it's boring.


It's entirely possible to confront and defeat IG gunline with mass melee, but you have to be really good at mass melee. Tyranids, for example. The Space Marines are not really good at mass melee. They cannot dump a metric crap-ton of Genestealers and Hormagaunts everywhere. Even Chaos can't rely exclusively on berzerkers to win the game, but supported berzerkers, and I don't just mean with buff-dispensing characters, but different units working together to protect each other and enhance each other's ability, definitely can work.

A blend of shooting and melee will have to carry the day for Space Marines, which is why the list I suggested earlier is built the way it is.


Finally, there are Dreadnought Drop Pods. They come from the same place as Repressors and Searchlights, so use those if your heart is set on dreadnoughts.

Marmatag wrote:I can handle if Guard end up being a hard counter to marines.

But then, I would expect that some Xenos armies rip Guard to shreds with the same ease that Guard rips me to shreds.

Allow me to present to you Sisters and Harlequins, who both make a absolute wreck of Gunline Guard. And, as mentioned, the Necron player doesn't seem to find it too hard. Also, mass Genestealers/Hormagaunts is pretty damn threatening.

It's also not all marines, it's specific marine lists. I presented a marine list that isn't Mass Stormravens or Guilliman&Friends, that absolutely stands a fair chance of beating a Gunline Guard list.



It's not specific armies that gunline guard counters, it's specific strategies. It banks on melee units and deepstrike units paying a premium for those abilities, which are insanely powerful, and then negating the ability for less than it costs to fully commit to exploiting those abilities, therefore turning the match into a weight-of-fire contest, which, because outlay for mobility is minimal, it will win.

Armies like Sisters and Harlequins, who put minimal investment into real toughness and instead invest in mobility and firepower, can make a mess of gunline guard, because the guard isn't able to turn off their abilities. GOing out to play a games, I'll explain this in more detail later.

I think guard claiming anyone pays a minimum for abilities is hilarious tbh.

SilverAlien wrote:
I think guard claiming anyone pays a minimum for abilities is hilarious tbh.

It's true. We don't pay for that which we don't use. Neither should you, but from what I see, a lot of other player do.

If you've paid for an ability, you're not getting the maximum possible value out of your unit if the ability doesn't get used. Conscripts prevent the optimal use of an extremely powerful and fairly costly ability, thus giving the guard and effective points advantage.


That's why I propose lists that I do to fight them. I try to avoid paying for useless features, and also try to avoid paying for features that can be easily negated by enemy unit placement and board arrangement.

I faced an Astra Militarum player on the weekend who fielded 40 conscripts. They weren't a problem for me at all, despite me running a very sub-optimal Death Guard list. 2 castings of Plague Wind killed over 30 of them (across 2 turns) with bolters cleaning up the rest. I lost in the end, but it was more due to my list having no answer to Wyverns than because conscripts actually done anything.

I see their use, and I see them being very very durable per-point but I just didn't find them threatening at all. Maybe I'm just ignorant though (I'm not what you'd call a "good" player )

Fhanados wrote:
I faced an Astra Militarum player on the weekend who fielded 40 conscripts. They weren't a problem for me at all, despite me running a very sub-optimal Death Guard list. 2 castings of Plague Wind killed over 30 of them (across 2 turns) with bolters cleaning up the rest. I lost in the end, but it was more due to my list having no answer to Wyverns than because conscripts actually done anything.

I see their use, and I see them being very very durable per-point but I just didn't find them threatening at all. Maybe I'm just ignorant though (I'm not what you'd call a "good" player )

If they didn't have, at the very least, a commissar and orders from an officer, they weren't really the conscripts people are complaining about. 40 Conscripts all by themselves make a good speed bump but they're not really overpowered.

The fact that it was 40 and not 50 in the unit also makes me think your opponent was thinking of them as filler and not as the monster they're capable of becoming.

Martel732 wrote:
If only there were a weapon that lays down a template and everything under it is automatically hit and also penetrates flak armor that has extremely short range.

Perhaps in a teardrop shape? Nah, get real. This would be op as hell.