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 Desubot wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.

80% sure it will be restrictive force org based

otherwise it could be CP trade in.

but i highly doubt it will cost actual list building points. only by the fact that adjusting EVERYTHING is something i cant see underpaid GW interns wanting to do.

On facebook they said "You'll need a full detachment of [white scars, but probably all chapters] to get access to chapter tactics."

IDK if it only affects the full detachment of what.

 McGibs wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Did they mix up Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors?

They are both good at offensive and defensive.

Well yeah, all marines are good at everything. But the super reductive gimmick between fists and warriors is that the fists build the fortresses, and the warriors knock em down.

The Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors are both experts in building, defending and assaulting fortifications: That's where the rivalry stems from. Remember the Imperial Palace vs the Iron Cage?

 3orangewhips wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
How do you get chapter tactics? Are they just a free bonus like they were in 7th edition? If so, I hope the marine points costs have been increased to reflect them.

80% sure it will be restrictive force org based

otherwise it could be CP trade in.

but i highly doubt it will cost actual list building points. only by the fact that adjusting EVERYTHING is something i cant see underpaid GW interns wanting to do.

On facebook they said "You'll need a full detachment of [white scars, but probably all chapters] to get access to chapter tactics."

IDK if it only affects the full detachment of what.

Sounds like when building a list you cant chuck a random IG Basilisk squad in the HS section. the imperial fists are tooooooo distracted by the big guns.

not sure how its going to work in a multi detachment.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.

My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.

Try to play cities of death and tell me again that cover is marginal.

Honestly, cities of death rules are freaking awesome and should be played at all times (not the mission or stratagem, just the rules for cover, deep cover, height advantage, roads, grenades, etc)

 Desubot wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


Raven guard got hooked up too.

What does this mean? Where I'm from it would mean someone found them a sex partner. I doubt that is what it means in this context. Sorry, I suck at american slang.

i dont want to explain because its funny but i probably should

So far White scars and Raven guard both got very good chapter tactics.

Eh, I would consider the White Scar tactic a nerf in the long run, since most of their iconic units (Bikes, mech Infantry) preferred to shoot instead of charge anyway. Thus, such armies are ironically done better with Ultramarine Tactics anyway. Of course, given that the most popular 7e Marine tournament build was "Blue Scars", it's probably a wash either way.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.

My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.

Try to play cities of death and tell me again that cover is marginal.

Honestly, cities of death rules are freaking awesome and should be played at all times (not the mission or stratagem, just the rules for cover, deep cover, height advantage, roads, grenades, etc)

Thats what I have been saying! People that don't stop crying about cover rules, etc... don't they tried to play with the Cities of Death special rules? And a proper field full of terrain. Then 8th terrain rules are totally fine.

Ignore. Accidental repost

I'm sad if these are free detachment buffs as that means they can be accessed with basically no downside.

I'll take my army with 1 detachment of assault units with the WS tactic, 1 with my back field shooting units with Ravenguard, and my midfield as salamanders.

My preference would be for traits to cost points as they are not all equivalent so getting the RG buff is better than the IF buff, but the units are the same price.

Barring that I would like them to require a full "chapter" army to get the buff, and then have chapters have different FOC restrictions or something.

But from the sound of it the only restriction is "detachment must be totally single chapter" which really isn't much of a drawback.

 Galas wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.

My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.

Try to play cities of death and tell me again that cover is marginal.

Honestly, cities of death rules are freaking awesome and should be played at all times (not the mission or stratagem, just the rules for cover, deep cover, height advantage, roads, grenades, etc)

Thats what I have been saying! People that don't stop crying about cover rules, etc... don't they tried to play with the Cities of Death special rules? And a proper field full of terrain. Then 8th terrain rules are totally fine.

Things like "cities of death" will always be marginal and are not likely to show up in tournament play. A lot of people like to make their more casual games mimic the rules they're going to play with in a more official capacity.

And I play with a crap load of terrain. But in more than 80% of situations, it only matters for blocking line of sight. The cover bonus is very situational. I find that it doesn't come up often and only in rare cases does it have a large impact on the game. Terrain is great for breaking up firing lines in 8th, but for providing a mechanical bonus, it's "o.k." at best.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.

My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.

How can you complain about ignore cover on all your guns?

Seems weird that vulkan hestan's buff becomes a little redundant with the sally chapter tactics.
Ignoring cover isn't particularly strong so far but to be fair tomb blades pay 3 points per model to do that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.

My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.

How can you complain about ignore cover on all your guns?

Because, if you'll read my last post. Mechanically, cover sucks. Cover is super important. I use as much as possible. It breaks up firing lanes and can keep certain units (like infantry) more relevant, but that +1 save that requires every model in the unit to be in the terrain just isn't a big factor more often than not. There are corner cases where it really matters, but overall, it's just "meh."

I'm also in the Imperial Fist sad camp, ignoring cover is OK but I very very rarely see any sort of building on the table.

Nowhere near as good ignoring half of the fall back limitations or army-wide buffs to LD, being hit or being tougher to kill.

In terms of power - Raven guard is obviously the best. If you've ever played against harlequins - you know what im talking about.

Id Rank them like this.

Ravengaurd (probably OP)
Ultramarines
Salamanders
blacktemplar/imperial fist

Out of the last 4 though the gap between power is situational and probably equal in terms of value depending on unit choices. Ravengaurd -1 to hit double auto dreads and las cannon devastator teams - it really is just too helpful all the time to be handed out for free on any army.

 Ratius wrote:
Ally a bunch of all these chapter tactic units together into a coherent force and you'd have a key for every lock.....
#scary

Nah. All units in your army will have to be from the same chapter or you don't get the trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Super sad about the Imperial Fists tactic. It's my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. Cover bonus to armor rarely comes up and when it does, it doesn't usually make a significant difference.

My Crimson Fists are probably gonna "counts as" something else.

How can you complain about ignore cover on all your guns?

People can, and will, complain about anything and everything.

Shoots overcharged plasma gun at ultra marine - lives.
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at raven guard - gun explodes.

THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at ultra marine - lives.
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at raven guard - gun explodes.

THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.

The Raven Guard must secretly be the Prinny Guard, d00d.

 JJ wrote:
I'm also in the Imperial Fist sad camp, ignoring cover is OK but I very very rarely see any sort of building on the table.

Nowhere near as good ignoring half of the fall back limitations or army-wide buffs to LD, being hit or being tougher to kill.

Well it should come with a part 2. May reroll a single damage result per unit if targeting a vehicle.

Nah. All units in your army will have to be from the same chapter or you don't get the trait.

Where has that been stated? I think the "restiriction" might just be that only certain units get to use and only if they have that CT.

-1 to hit from more than 12" doesn't strike me as being all that much better than 6+ FNP. Obviously it wrecks shooty Orks, but against BS3+, -1 to hit is basically a 5.5+ FNP. Against BS4+ it's like a 5+ FNP. And it doesn't protect at all against CC or rapid fire. FNP is also better at protecting multi-wound models from attacks that do just enough damage to kill them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at ultra marine - lives.
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at raven guard - gun explodes.

THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.

They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.

 John Prins wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at ultra marine - lives.
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at raven guard - gun explodes.

THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.

They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.

Obviously. Doesn't change the fact that it's weird that it overheats more vs stealthy or dodgy things.

ectoplastic wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at ultra marine - lives.
Shoots overcharged plasma gun at raven guard - gun explodes.

THEY REALLY need to fix these interactions if they are just going to hand out -1 to hit all over the place.

They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.

Obviously. Doesn't change the fact that it's weird that it overheats more vs stealthy or dodgy things.

Its very weird i hate that they made modifiers work that way.

but at the same time if you are shooting plasma guns you are probably within 12" in the first place for that sweet sweet rapid fire. (its an example i know)

Dionysodorus wrote:
-1 to hit from more than 12" doesn't strike me as being all that much better than 6+ FNP. Obviously it wrecks shooty Orks, but against BS3+, -1 to hit is basically a 5.5+ FNP. Against BS4+ it's like a 5+ FNP. And it doesn't protect at all against CC or rapid fire. FNP is also better at protecting multi-wound models from attacks that do just enough damage to kill them.

A hit penalty is better versus multi-wound weapons, since FNP requires rolling a 6+ for each wound suffered. So vs Overcharged plasma, said Iron Hands have to roll 2 6s each.

 John Prins wrote:

They have 2 different fire modes, you know. One doesn't explode at all.

Yes. But forcing the enemy to use the weaker mode is a huge bonus.

I know it's all doom and gloom for the Imperial Fist tactics (I guess it depends on how much terrain you use, but if you don't play with much terrain at all you're doing it wrong), but remember we still have Relics, Warlord Traits and Strategems to look at. What if IF get a great Relic to use paired with a useful Strategem? It won't be so bad then.

And guess who became relevant again with actual unique rules?

I mean, that makes me happy as a CF player above all else to be honest.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Nah. All units in your army will have to be from the same chapter or you don't get the trait.

Where has that been stated? I think the "restiriction" might just be that only certain units get to use and only if they have that CT.

Well I don't think there will be any restrictions on using 2 chapters together - I feel like each detachment is going to have to have the same chapter tactic. So - if your fear is a space marine player running 3 detachments.

A vangaurd detachment with
3 raven guard dreads

An outrider detachment with
3 units of ultra marine scout bikes

and a black templar vangaurd with
3 units of vangaurd vets

I'm pretty sure that will be legal.

Universal ignores cover seems pretty damn decent to me. I think people don't use enough terrain.