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BrianDavion wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.

I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.

 NorseSig wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.

I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."

Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.

I cannot understand how IH have been hard done by compared to the other armies tactics outside RG who seem just better than everyone else. Most of the armies units just became 16.666% more durable and Vehicles can now move without suffering a penalty to shoot heavy weapons. Its hard to see this as being bad? With good positioning you can outmanoeuvre your opponents tanks and dreads, forcing them to move to get a shot off which increases their chance to miss. You can also just move all vehicles benefiting from the bonus up with your army while still being able to unload at full strength. That's all that we have seen, the Codex is not out yet so its not really a time to throw toys just yet.

 NorseSig wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.

I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."

Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.

Slightly better stats? Did you actually READ the entry? It's a Relic Blade with consistent 2 Damage.

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.

I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."

Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.

I cannot understand how IH have been hard done by compared to the other armies tactics outside RG who seem just better than everyone else. Most of the armies units just became 16.666% more durable and Vehicles can now move without suffering a penalty to shoot heavy weapons. Its hard to see this as being bad? With good positioning you can outmanoeuvre your opponents tanks and dreads, forcing them to move to get a shot off which increases their chance to miss. You can also just move all vehicles benefiting from the bonus up with your army while still being able to unload at full strength. That's all that we have seen, the Codex is not out yet so its not really a time to throw toys just yet.

The IH chapter tactic works like that mathematically but in practice not so much. It is far too random and unreliable. It does not save what you want to save or give you a reliable way to save the model/unit when you want it to. Currently there is only one unit that turns the Chapter Tactic into something more reliable, and that is the Venerable Dreadnought, which already has the 6+ FNP (Esentially) so the CT on that unit is basically a 6+ with a reroll improving your odds to get it. Other than that you really can't maximize the Iron Hands chapter Tactic like you can other chapter tactics. I am not sure spamming Ven Dreads is the best option though. In the few games I've played today I'm not sure the Ven Dreads do enough work to be worth it. The IH Chapter tactic is better on multiwound models, but most multiwound models won't benefit from the Strategems. Meaning the rules are at odds with each other. They don't synergize well. Both rules do play nice with Dreads, but I just can't build a decent all comers list around that. I don't really want to play all dread anyway, though I would like to have the ability like last 2 editions to take them in the heavy slot freeing me up for other stuff in the elites. From everything I have seen so far, IH have less options and choices than before and can't build around the CT like you sort of could in 7th (not counting smash).

If the CT was 6+ to everything with either a reroll or 5+ for infantry, dreads, and bikes along with the current strategem, or even current ct with the Strategem applying to all heavy weapons and assault weapons on vehicles, or even 6+ and Strategem to everything. I want something I can truly build around to maximize both the strategem and CT like other armies can.

OUtside that I want the old Iron Hands back with Terminator sergeants, HQ dreads, Iron Fathers, NO Chaplains, Heavy slot dreads, and a few decent Unique characters (one of which being a force multiplier).

as far as the outmanuevering opponents thing. It is not as easy as you make it sound. Alpha strike is a thing. Most armies have something that lets them reroll hits.

Not throwing toys. I have spent way too much on this army and hobby to do that. I was saying i have spent 30k+ on kits alone building my Iron Hands CHAPTER, but actually tallying things up in case I wanted to sell and get out; I am finding the figure is closer to 90k+. My, how we can collect things over time without realizing it. Now if only I could paint well enough for me to even want to show it off instead of just be embarrassed by my ability (more like lack of ability) to paint. My IH are Fugly. A whole chapter of Fugly (TM?) If I total up everything from the time, to the kits, to the paint, to the tools, the greenstuff,
the conversion stuff and bits' then I would say I have spent about 200k (probably shoulda bought myself a new pickup and house) over the entirety of my time in warhammer 40k on my Iron Hands alone. That is too much of an investment to sell, destroy, or giveaway. That doesn't count what I lost in a small room house fire due to bad wiring done by a LICENSED, REPUTABLE (LAZY) Electrician. So I am probably a little overly passionate about my Iron Hands army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slightly better stats? Did you actually READ the entry? It's a Relic Blade with consistent 2 Damage.

So what else does it do? Yes, 2 damage, in melee, big whoop. I suppose if I had the combat monster to put it on that would be another story (or could deliver the damage at range which would be silly for a power axe), but that doesn't exist in the IH. The only reason people built and played smash was because he could get his points back and flat out win the game if they weren't eldar and were unprepared. Smash doesn't exist anymore. The Axe of Medusa doesn't enhance anything the IH want to do.

Man, the last few pages of this thread is making me shake my head so much.

 NorseSig wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

I think he's made up his mind to decide Iron Hands are screwed, rather then look at how they can be used.

I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part. And I have a feeling Strategems won't be a simple army wide bonus for only using one army. I am frustrated that IH are continually getting the short end of the stick. It frustrates me that other armies do to. And I find it aggravating when people essentially say "You play space marines, so you got it good" or "You are a Space Marine so you are OP anyway" or how about "So what if your fluff has changed, you lost your unique unit, your Terminator Sergeants were taken away and given to Space Wolves, you can't use Dreads as HQs, don't have any unique characters with special rules, have boring and questionably useful relics, and can't take dreads in a heavy support slot; you have a 6+ FNP and are a Space Marine so you are good and should just like it," or "You are getting the rules for free, so why are you complaining," and finally "Yeah, you lost this <whatever> but all Space Marines get this <whatever>; so you should be happy."

Also I didn't make a personal attack on you. Don't make them on me. I do NOT have to put up with that crap here like I do at work. I don't get paid for it.

So its garbage because you don't like it.........ok

Seems like a good weapon stats wise and will be fun to convert on models for sure.

No, it is garbage because it really has no place in the Iron Hands army. You can't build a melee unit effective enough to make good use of it. And it is a Power Axe with a name and slightly better stats, and it might actually be worse than the previous version of it (Used Gorgon Chain so can't confirm). Hardly impressive. It won't make an impact on the game. Relic weapons with improved stats are something that should be used on named HQs (who tend to also have extra army/unit buffing rules and boosted stats) for a little fluff more than anything.

I cannot understand how IH have been hard done by compared to the other armies tactics outside RG who seem just better than everyone else. Most of the armies units just became 16.666% more durable and Vehicles can now move without suffering a penalty to shoot heavy weapons. Its hard to see this as being bad? With good positioning you can outmanoeuvre your opponents tanks and dreads, forcing them to move to get a shot off which increases their chance to miss. You can also just move all vehicles benefiting from the bonus up with your army while still being able to unload at full strength. That's all that we have seen, the Codex is not out yet so its not really a time to throw toys just yet.

The IH chapter tactic works like that mathematically but in practice not so much. It is far too random and unreliable. It does not save what you want to save or give you a reliable way to save the model/unit when you want it to. Currently there is only one unit that turns the Chapter Tactic into something more reliable, and that is the Venerable Dreadnought, which already has the 6+ FNP (Esentially) so the CT on that unit is basically a 6+ with a reroll improving your odds to get it. Other than that you really can't maximize the Iron Hands chapter Tactic like you can other chapter tactics. I am not sure spamming Ven Dreads is the best option though. In the few games I've played today I'm not sure the Ven Dreads do enough work to be worth it. The IH Chapter tactic is better on multiwound models, but most multiwound models won't benefit from the Strategems. Meaning the rules are at odds with each other. They don't synergize well. Both rules do play nice with Dreads, but I just can't build a decent all comers list around that. I don't really want to play all dread anyway, though I would like to have the ability like last 2 editions to take them in the heavy slot freeing me up for other stuff in the elites. From everything I have seen so far, IH have less options and choices than before and can't build around the CT like you sort of could in 7th (not counting smash).

If the CT was 6+ to everything with either a reroll or 5+ for infantry, dreads, and bikes along with the current strategem, or even current ct with the Strategem applying to all heavy weapons and assault weapons on vehicles, or even 6+ and Strategem to everything. I want something I can truly build around to maximize both the strategem and CT like other armies can.

OUtside that I want the old Iron Hands back with Terminator sergeants, HQ dreads, Iron Fathers, NO Chaplains, Heavy slot dreads, and a few decent Unique characters (one of which being a force multiplier).

as far as the outmanuevering opponents thing. It is not as easy as you make it sound. Alpha strike is a thing. Most armies have something that lets them reroll hits.

Not throwing toys. I have spent way too much on this army and hobby to do that. I was saying i have spent 30k+ on kits alone building my Iron Hands CHAPTER, but actually tallying things up in case I wanted to sell and get out; I am finding the figure is closer to 90k+. My, how we can collect things over time without realizing it. Now if only I could paint well enough for me to even want to show it off instead of just be embarrassed by my ability (more like lack of ability) to paint. My IH are Fugly. A whole chapter of Fugly (TM?) If I total up everything from the time, to the kits, to the paint, to the tools, the greenstuff,
the conversion stuff and bits' then I would say I have spent about 200k (probably shoulda bought myself a new pickup and house) over the entirety of my time in warhammer 40k on my Iron Hands alone. That is too much of an investment to sell, destroy, or giveaway. That doesn't count what I lost in a small room house fire due to bad wiring done by a LICENSED, REPUTABLE (LAZY) Electrician. So I am probably a little overly passionate about my Iron Hands army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slightly better stats? Did you actually READ the entry? It's a Relic Blade with consistent 2 Damage.

So what else does it do? Yes, 2 damage, in melee, big whoop. I suppose if I had the combat monster to put it on that would be another story (or could deliver the damage at range which would be silly for a power axe), but that doesn't exist in the IH. The only reason people built and played smash was because he could get his points back and flat out win the game if they weren't eldar and were unprepared. Smash doesn't exist anymore. The Axe of Medusa doesn't enhance anything the IH want to do.

Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.

I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)

BA also have Librarian Dreads as HQs. They can "inspire" units through their psychic powers, giving them a 4+ invulnerable save or +1 attack.

You're right that most chapters don't have unique units. That said, I think BA and DA do need their special units. You could definitely add a BA section to the SM book about six to ten pages long plus additional pages for art and fluff, mind you. And same for Dark Angels and probably even Space Wolves! But they do deserve their unique units, nonetheless.

Not every chapter is wildly divergent from the codex astartes... but on the flipside, not every chapter is strictly adherent to the codex astartes, either. BA, DA, SW, BT, etc all represent this to an extent.

 Melissia wrote:
BA also have Librarian Dreads as HQs. They can "inspire" units through their psychic powers, giving them a 4+ invulnerable save or +1 attack.

You're right that most chapters don't have unique units. That said, I think BA and DA do need their special units. You could definitely add a BA section to the SM book about six to ten pages long plus additional pages for art and fluff, mind you. And same for Dark Angels and probably even Space Wolves! But they do deserve their unique units, nonetheless.

Not every chapter is wildly divergent from the codex astartes... but on the flipside, not every chapter is strictly adherent to the codex astartes, either. BA, DA, SW, BT, etc all represent this to an extent.

At most Blood Angels should keep Death Company. Literally everything else can be covered, and arguably some options need to be open to other Chapters (Examples: for whatever reason, my Marines from the 5th edition Codex forgot to use their Heavy Flamers unless they were in a Sternguard Squad, and for whatever reason Iron Hands, a Chapter with good connections, can't get Melta Pistols or Hand Flamers). Death Angels only need to keep Deathwing and Ravenwing Knights. Plus there's really no reason these chapters shouldn't have access to Vanilla toys (TFC, Centurions, AA Tanks), other than to try and make them "unique" enough for their own Codices. It's just unnecessary. Nobody is taking the good unique options anyway (Dark Angel Fliers, Sanguine Guard).

I do think each Chapter should maybe get 1-2 unique units though. It really isn't a breaking point though.

I wouldn't object to each chapter getting unique units, either.

For example, Salamanders getting a unique veteran unit with 2+ saves, master-crafted boltguns, and chainswords that give AP-1 as well as the additional attack. Raven Guard getting a variant on Scouts that are veterans with access to superior special rules and equipment. Iron Hands having a special variant of the predator or some other vehicle. Imperial Fists gaining a specialized storm bolter squad. And so on.

Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. But these are still codex-adherent chapters, and they shouldn't go overboard.

What makes me sad is that I would love to have that UM chapter tactic on my BA now that I have seen it. Making a full company of BA and being able to shoot after falling back would be ace. Tactical Squads don't really seem like they want to be in close combat all too often unless it is to finish off a very weakened unit. Real interested to see how these new codexes develop with future releases.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion.

I dont think they will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NorseSig wrote:
The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part.

I'll happily swap you what Crimson Fists get.

Ignore cover, blow up buildings and no unique strategem?

You're getting 6+ ignore wounds on all marines, dreads and bikes, and moving your tanks and firing heavy weapons with no penalty.

I'll happily swap you what Crimson Fists get.

Ignore cover, blow up buildings and no unique strategem?

You're getting 6+ ignore wounds on all marines, dreads and bikes, and moving your tanks and firing heavy weapons with no penalty.

I'll probably do what I did half way through 6th and halfway through 7th ignore the 6+ on everything but the units that can actually make good use of it soo ven dreads and maybe other dreads as they are the only thing with enough wounds for it to matter. And I'll just use the vehicle strategem as long as it is a freebie. I guess if I have to pay for that I will have no choice. I could be wrong, have the IF focus even been released yet? I don't think it has so, so whatever your strategem is we don't know yet. Honestly, I have been focused so much on the IH that I haven't payed to close of attention to all the releases beyond a quick glance. Your IF would like the table I play on. Lots of cover to ignore, and usually a building in the center that needs to be captured and held or destroyed as a special objective. 2 points to take it. 3 more to hold it at end of game. 4 points to destroy it if the opponent controls it.

 Melissia wrote:
I wouldn't object to each chapter getting unique units, either.

For example, Salamanders getting a unique veteran unit with 2+ saves, master-crafted boltguns, and chainswords that give AP-1 as well as the additional attack. Raven Guard getting a variant on Scouts that are veterans with access to superior special rules and equipment. Iron Hands having a special variant of the predator or some other vehicle. Imperial Fists gaining a specialized storm bolter squad. And so on.

Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. But these are still codex-adherent chapters, and they shouldn't go overboard.

The Blood and Dark Angels were almost codex compliant chapters untill thery received the "flavour" units and weapons and such - they just had a couple of quirtks in their unit organisation.

Even Space Wolves originally did not have anything different from other Chapters but as every time they brought out a Codex they had to find ways to sell it and thats why we haev Santa Logan now. Doubtless they will need to make Primus bersions of the Flavour untis for the snowflake Chapters.

The other First Founding Chapters have mostly escaped this but also have been neglected of even a single signitire unit - so no Firedrakes for Salamanders, no Stealth units for Ravenguard etc and not even a Character for Iron Hands. One or two at most however otherwise we end up with Hand marines using Hand swords riding giant Hands. I saw them excrete this stuff form my Wolves and last thing I want to see it is for other Chapters.

For anyone who doesn't understand what the IH have become, picture this...

You've got a 6+ save after any saves have been failed. It works for Dark Eldar really well. I face DE regularly and it's annoying on them. You're fielding Marines and Terminators with this save. I'd consider it a lot more annoying when I've gotten through their armour only to find that they've made that extra save. It works.

You've also now been given the ability to move vehicles and fire heavy weapons with NO penalty. That's MASSIVE. Take a Predator Annihilator - I've moved it 12" to get into LOS and now I've fired it at full BS. Four shots on 3+ instead of 4+. That's going to hurt. True, Land Raiders and Stormraven already have this and you're not going to be as spammy with vehicles, but this is GOLDEN.

A lot of players are going to underestimate IH and dare I say it, BT too.

BT rerolling charge is a little scary when considering they can also get rerolls to hit from their Chaplains. That's going to get more guys into range more often.

We all know that the RG one is probably the most most powerful, but the others are all useable.

Iron hands get a light version of DE stuff on top of the Marine stuff. I can tell you move and fire at full BS and 6+fnp is really really useful.

Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.

I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)

1. Sergeants in Terminator armor. Is that worded better for you. It may be silly and pure fluff, but it is something IH had and it was taken away. I more than anything want the OPTION to do what we used to be able to do. If SW can do it, then why can't the IH?
2. Except IH aren't supposed to have Chaplains (or a Chapter Master though IH have HQs with their experience and ability, so Chapter Masters in all but name and rank). They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. Which again is a Unique model we had that was taken away. And the Iron Father
unit was Iconic of the Chapter (And was our chaplain tech marine love child of sorts). Plus it is a FW model and they still aren't accepted by everyone.
3. Again, IH used to have a Unique unit. They may not need special units, but their armies are usually made better by using them. This one doesn't bother me as much as the others. I just want a level playing field
4. Our rules really don't support melee well even when building for it. If you can build a Smash or his equivalent then go for it. The Axe of Medusa is not something to build around. It is something to throw on a good melee unit if you have the extra points. Melee is expensive for SM to
pull off without the right rules usually. And IH tactics favor tanks (at least the strategem). You would be much better off throwing points there rather than melee units. Relic Blades are good because they can be taken in bulk on multiple units. The Axe is a one of, and I would rather have
something that provides a buff to tanks and dreads within 6 inches, which again is something the IH had.
5. IH also had access to a 5+FNP via Fist of Medusa Strike Force. If Objective Secured and free vehicles wasn't such a huge bonus this would have been a no brainer for IH. I'd say the objective secured was the most useful part.
6. We also had access to extra Techmarines which was more fluffy than useful, but this one I don't have an issue with due to the increased number of HQ slots.

Other than the Unique characters thing (Ideally other than Stronos), nothing I mentioned isn't something we haven't had before at one point or another and that other SM armies do have in one shape or another. I am surprised that people really think the Axe of Medusa will be some huge game changer. Personally I don't. It isn't any different than a weapon you'd see on a named HQ who is going to most likely be getting special rules that also buff units or the whole army (and usually at a good price). Again, I just want the things the IH USED to have, but don't now. If I got most of the other stuff I would probably care less about the crummy CT.

Don't know how your post "Shut me down," but if you saying makes you feel better; then you can have it. And while I think IH do have one of the weakest CT, our Strategem, if it works like a CT; should help mitigate the CT. I think too many are overestimating how good it is (it IS good).

Must say I'm much calmer after going out target shooting using a blown up Guilliman head on the targets. So if I got a little out of line earlier I do apologize. It doesn't change my opinion of things, but I will try to post in a more respectful manner

Malifice wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't want them to get too different from Imperial Fists. From the sounds of it, they will still have the same Strategems as their parent legion.

I dont think they will.

You thought wrong.

From today's article: ...the Imperial Fists are a great Chapter if you want to focus on using bolt weapons – their unique Stratagem, Bolter Drill, allows for you to drown enemies in devastatingly accurate fusillades of bolter fire...
...Crimson Fists armies use the bolter-based and cover-ignoring tactics of their brethren...

It specifically says the Warlord trait (7e Rampage) and the Relic (the Crimson Fist) as the only features that are unique relative to the Imperial Fists.

In other news, Black Templars deny the witch like bosses.

I personally like how bland the CT rules are, I believe its a great way to stop eventual rules bloat if the passive abilities are simple, but the Stratgems should really mix things up!

From Warhammer Twitch:
Bolter Drill: 1CP, all infantry-based bolt weapons; hits of 6 generate an extra hit (that don't generate more hits).

Not bad for a Bolter heavy army. My Centurions will be getting their Grav cannons cut off to put Heavy Bolters in their place. My Sternguard are going to be beasts, as are the Intercessors.

Is that army-wide for that 1CP, or just one unit?

 Slinky wrote:
Is that army-wide for that 1CP, or just one unit?

It sounds like it is army-wide. The question I have is what the duration is. If it is always on like some Strategems, holy hell! If it lasts until the start of your next turn, still pretty good. Overwatch would generate two hits per hit.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From Warhammer Twitch:
Bolter Drill: 1CP, all infantry-based bolt weapons; hits of 6 generate an extra hit (that don't generate more hits).

Not bad for a Bolter heavy army. My Centurions will be getting their Grav cannons cut off to put Heavy Bolters in their place. My Sternguard are going to be beasts, as are the Intercessors.

That is music to my ears! It's nice and strong for 1CP, should help us tackle hordes with a bit more ease.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Slinky wrote:
Is that army-wide for that 1CP, or just one unit?

It sounds like it is army-wide. The question I have is what the duration is. If it is always on like some Strategems, holy hell! If it lasts until the start of your next turn, still pretty good. Overwatch would generate two hits per hit.

There are pics now here:

https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/review-codex-space-marines-datacards/

Tiny pic, but peering at it, it seems like it says it's used "before an Imperial Fists infantry unit fires in the shooting phase" - So only a single unit, not the whole army. Same with the Salamanders flamecraft strat.

Not sure how I feel about that.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.

Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!

You guys cant complain

IF got a bolt pistol.

They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.

Zooming on the stratagems:

Linebreaker for Vind and the Pred thing are Stratagems.
1cp for a White Scar unit to advance and charge.
Orbital Bomb is a Stratagem.
looks like Chapter Relics might cost CP.
Flamecraft looks to be add 1 to all wound rolls for flame weapons.
Machine empathy removes penalties for moving and shooting.
add 2 to psychic test?

 NorseSig wrote:

Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.

I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)

1. Sergeants in Terminator armor. Is that worded better for you. It may be silly and pure fluff, but it is something IH had and it was taken away. I more than anything want the OPTION to do what we used to be able to do. If SW can do it, then why can't the IH?
2. Except IH aren't supposed to have Chaplains (or a Chapter Master though IH have HQs with their experience and ability, so Chapter Masters in all but name and rank). They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. Which again is a Unique model we had that was taken away. And the Iron Father
unit was Iconic of the Chapter (And was our chaplain tech marine love child of sorts). Plus it is a FW model and they still aren't accepted by everyone.
3. Again, IH used to have a Unique unit. They may not need special units, but their armies are usually made better by using them. This one doesn't bother me as much as the others. I just want a level playing field
4. Our rules really don't support melee well even when building for it. If you can build a Smash or his equivalent then go for it. The Axe of Medusa is not something to build around. It is something to throw on a good melee unit if you have the extra points. Melee is expensive for SM to
pull off without the right rules usually. And IH tactics favor tanks (at least the strategem). You would be much better off throwing points there rather than melee units. Relic Blades are good because they can be taken in bulk on multiple units. The Axe is a one of, and I would rather have
something that provides a buff to tanks and dreads within 6 inches, which again is something the IH had.
5. IH also had access to a 5+FNP via Fist of Medusa Strike Force. If Objective Secured and free vehicles wasn't such a huge bonus this would have been a no brainer for IH. I'd say the objective secured was the most useful part.
6. We also had access to extra Techmarines which was more fluffy than useful, but this one I don't have an issue with due to the increased number of HQ slots.

Other than the Unique characters thing (Ideally other than Stronos), nothing I mentioned isn't something we haven't had before at one point or another and that other SM armies do have in one shape or another. I am surprised that people really think the Axe of Medusa will be some huge game changer. Personally I don't. It isn't any different than a weapon you'd see on a named HQ who is going to most likely be getting special rules that also buff units or the whole army (and usually at a good price). Again, I just want the things the IH USED to have, but don't now. If I got most of the other stuff I would probably care less about the crummy CT.

Don't know how your post "Shut me down," but if you saying makes you feel better; then you can have it. And while I think IH do have one of the weakest CT, our Strategem, if it works like a CT; should help mitigate the CT. I think too many are overestimating how good it is (it IS good).

Must say I'm much calmer after going out target shooting using a blown up Guilliman head on the targets. So if I got a little out of line earlier I do apologize. It doesn't change my opinion of things, but I will try to post in a more respectful manner

1. Options don't matter if those options suck. Terminator Sergeants literally does nothing for us, and in fact actively makes the list worse. So it might as well not exist, and I'm glad it doesn't. It doesn't tempt newer players into making a bad decision.
2. The Iron Father doesn't really do anything unique enough to justify a unit entry. Use your models appropriately as Techmarines or souped up Chaplains. Or as Vaylund Cal, who I'm sure FW will errata to be Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.
3. You cannot say that. Blood Angels armies aren't made better with Sanguine Guard, way more than half their characters, and extra Dreads outside the Librarian one (which arguably needs to be available to all Chapters). Dark Angels aren't made better by any special units at all.
4. The rules support both melee and range. It depends how you decide to build for it. If you're building a melee Iron Hands force, the Axe is an excellent game changer. If you're building a range Iron Hands force, you still might take it as for a counter charge HQ in your backlines.

Strategems lasting all game long, what are you people smoking... I want some.

 Desubot wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.

Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!

You guys cant complain

IF got a bolt pistol.

They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.

I actually LIKE the Spartean :(
Two damage, ignores cover, AP-1, and can target characters? AND fits the whole Bolt theme? What's not to like?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.

I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.

This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.

Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!

You guys cant complain

IF got a bolt pistol.

They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.

I actually LIKE the Spartean :(
Two damage, ignores cover, AP-1, and can target characters? AND fits the whole Bolt theme? What's not to like?

Nothing not to like at all. though was hoping for a relic boltgun so i could use those master crafted boltgun bits.

Confirmation that Regular Space Marines can't ride in a Repulsor. Also, Aggressors lack AP on everything but their fists. That is pretty lame.

Edit: the Spartean is a Str 4, AP -1, 2 DMG SNIPER pistol. I can't tell on the shot count, it almost looks like it could be 2 instead of 1.

Edit the Second: I can't give Pedro Kantor the Fist of Vengeance. Poo.