Chapter Tactics Leaks! Black Templar, Imp Fists, Salamanders, Iron Hands

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**Dionysodorus**

pretre wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
We know from an image of the stratagem page that Bolter Drill gives a unit's bolters the ability to generate extra hits on hit rolls of 6+. This works out to be basically the same thing as re-rolling 1s to hit, but it stacks with re-rolls. It doesn't strike me as being particularly good.

Uhh no.

Rerolling ones is 14/18 hits per dice rolled.
Exploding 6's is 1/2 Hit plus 1/6 chance of 2 Hits. Which is 5/6 (I think) or 15/18. A little better.

And you mentioned the stacking rerolls, which will increase it a bit more.

edit: Well, you did say basically the same and 1/18 difference is basically the same. I thought it would be more dramatic. It probably is with rerolls.

Rerolls
1/2 Hit plus 1/6 chance of 2 hits. 15/18 hit.
Then
Rerolls
1/6 Misses get rerolled, with 1/2 hit is 1/12 more hits. Then 1/6 of 1/6 get 2 hits.

So 3/36 and 2/36 plus 30/36 is 35/36 per shot. So basically, you hit with every bolter.

Sorry, I misspoke. Bolter Drill says: "Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model firing a bolt weapon, that model can immediately make another hit roll using the same weapon at the same target". Infantry alone, standard caveat about extra attacks not generating extra attacks. You're right that actually generating an extra hit would be a bit better -- this would be like getting +1 to hit.

**pretre**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Hmmm, so looks like I am positioning Pedro Kantor near the Sternguard for maximum effect. I could also put a Lieutenant near them for even more wounds from Masterful Marksmanship.

Rerolls
1/2 Hit plus 1/6 chance of 2 hits. 15/18 hit.
Then
Rerolls
1/3 Misses get rerolled, with 1/2 hit is 1/6 more hits. Then 1/6 of 1/3 get 2 hits.

Pedro makes it so you reroll all misses which is even better.

3/18 plus 2/18 plus 15/18 is 20/18 hits. You actually hit more than you shoot.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, it's extra hit roll? Ugh. That's a lot more work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That wasn't right.

**Dionysodorus**

If you're hitting on a 3+, re-rolling all misses, and you get to make a new hit roll on a 6+, then I believe you expect:

4/3 * (2/3 + 1/6*2/3) = 1.04 hits per shot

**Arandmoor**

Melissia wrote:
The source for bolter drill IIRC was from their livestream.

Is there a link to the stratagem descriptions?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Sorry, I misspoke. Bolter Drill says: "Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model firing a bolt weapon, that model can immediately make another hit roll using the same weapon at the same target". Infantry alone, standard caveat about extra attacks not generating extra attacks. You're right that actually generating an extra hit would be a bit better -- this would be like getting +1 to hit.

That makes a stock 6-man centurion devastator squad with primaris rhino support absolutely bonkers in rapid fire range...

**pretre**

Extra Hit Roll, not extra Hit, without rerolls:

2/3 Hit, plus 1/6 Chance of 2/3 hit is 14/18 Hit, same as reroll ones.

Extra hit roll, not extra hit with reroll 1's:
Still 14/18 plus
1/6 * 2/3 = 14/108
So 98/108 Hits.

Extra hit roll with reroll all:
14/18 plus
1/3 * 14/18 = 14/54
56/54. Every shot hits, basically.

**Dionysodorus**

Arandmoor wrote:
Melissia wrote:
The source for bolter drill IIRC was from their livestream.

Is there a link to the stratagem descriptions?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Sorry, I misspoke. Bolter Drill says: "Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model firing a bolt weapon, that model can immediately make another hit roll using the same weapon at the same target". Infantry alone, standard caveat about extra attacks not generating extra attacks. You're right that actually generating an extra hit would be a bit better -- this would be like getting +1 to hit.

That makes a stock 6-man centurion devastator squad with primaris rhino support absolutely bonkers in rapid fire range...

I'm going off of the images in the review here: https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/review-codex-space-marines-datacards/

**casvalremdeikun**

Dionysodorus wrote:
If you're hitting on a 3+, re-rolling all misses, and you get to make a new hit roll on a 6+, then I believe you expect:

4/3 * (2/3 + 1/6*2/3) = 1.04 hits per shot

So then it becomes the question of the Masterful Marksmanship adding 1 to wound rolls. How does that modify the math? Obviously that is dependent on Toughness, but it basically means that even against T8 or better, you are still wounding on a 5+.

**Dionysodorus**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
If you're hitting on a 3+, re-rolling all misses, and you get to make a new hit roll on a 6+, then I believe you expect:

4/3 * (2/3 + 1/6*2/3) = 1.04 hits per shot
So then it becomes the question of the Masterful Marksmanship adding 1 to wound rolls. How does that modify the math? Obviously that is dependent on Toughness, but it basically means that even against T8 or better, you are still wounding on a 5+.

These are independent. If you're wounding on a 4+ against whatever-it-is, then you expect half of your hits to wound, however many hits you had. Masterful Marksmanship means the Sternguard do 100% more wounds vs T8, 50% more vs T5-7, 33% more vs T4, and 25% more vs T3. So percentage-wise the best case scenario for them is re-rolling failed hits and using both stratagems against T8, where they're expecting to do 3.11 times as many wounds as they'd have done without all those things. So a rapid-firing squad of 10 expects to put about 3.5 wounds on a Land Raider or about 7 on a Razorback.

It's certainly a big boost, but it strikes me as being pretty expensive for what you're getting. Using 1 CP to re-roll a failed lascannon wound on a Land Raider is worth just over 1.5 expected wounds. Using it to reroll a d6 damage roll of 1 is worth an expected 2.5 wounds on whatever.

**pretre**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
If you're hitting on a 3+, re-rolling all misses, and you get to make a new hit roll on a 6+, then I believe you expect:

4/3 * (2/3 + 1/6*2/3) = 1.04 hits per shot
So then it becomes the question of the Masterful Marksmanship adding 1 to wound rolls. How does that modify the math? Obviously that is dependent on Toughness, but it basically means that even against T8 or better, you are still wounding on a 5+.

We didn't take the wounds into account, just hits.

**casvalremdeikun**

Dionysodorus wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
If you're hitting on a 3+, re-rolling all misses, and you get to make a new hit roll on a 6+, then I believe you expect:

4/3 * (2/3 + 1/6*2/3) = 1.04 hits per shot
So then it becomes the question of the Masterful Marksmanship adding 1 to wound rolls. How does that modify the math? Obviously that is dependent on Toughness, but it basically means that even against T8 or better, you are still wounding on a 5+.

These are independent. If you're wounding on a 4+ against whatever-it-is, then you expect half of your hits to wound, however many hits you had. Masterful Marksmanship means the Sternguard do 100% more wounds vs T8, 50% more vs T5-7, 33% more vs T4, and 25% more vs T3. So percentage-wise the best case scenario for them is re-rolling failed hits and using both stratagems against T8, where they're expecting to do 3.11 times as many wounds as they'd have done without all those things. So a rapid-firing squad of 10 expects to put about 3.5 wounds on a Land Raider or about 7 on a Razorback.

It's certainly a big boost, but it strikes me as being pretty expensive for what you're getting. Using 1 CP to re-roll a failed lascannon wound on a Land Raider is worth just over 1.5 expected wounds. Using it to reroll a d6 damage roll of 1 is worth an expected 2.5 wounds on whatever.

Fair enough. I don't think I would be going after Land Raiders. But going after a Riptide (T7) would be a pretty good use. Using MM and Bolter Drill on the same squad would generate 10 AP-2 wounds on a Riptide. That is pretty potent.

**sossen**

With Bolter Drill it's roughly 0.78 hits:

Spoiler:

With Bolter Drill and reroll 1's to hit it's roughly 0.93 hits:

Spoiler:

With Bolter Drill and reroll to hit it's roughly 1.09 hits:

Spoiler:

From this we can calculate how many extra hits you get with bolter drill:

No reroll gets 0.11 extra hits: (7/9)-(4/6)=1/9

Reroll 1's to hit gets 0.15 extra hits: (301/324)-(7/9)=49/324

Reroll to hit gets 0.20 extra hits: (88/81)-(8/9)=16/81

**jcd386**

Weird that the land speeder can't do double flamers any more...

**Gibs55**

Now that we know all tactics, some relics and stratagems has anyone's opinion changed?

**Crimson Devil**

This is the internet, no one changes their mind.

**casvalremdeikun**

Gibs55 wrote:
Now that we know all tactics, some relics and stratagems has anyone's opinion changed?

Yes. Raven Guard went from Broken to LOL! Broken.

**BrianDavion**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Gibs55 wrote:
Now that we know all tactics, some relics and stratagems has anyone's opinion changed?
Yes. Raven Guard went from Broken to LOL! Broken.

whats the ravenguard relic?

**casvalremdeikun**

BrianDavion wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Gibs55 wrote:
Now that we know all tactics, some relics and stratagems has anyone's opinion changed?
Yes. Raven Guard went from Broken to LOL! Broken.

whats the ravenguard relic?

A jump pack that allows Advance and Charge in the same turn with Rerolls to charge. In short, they are getting to where they need to be. But that isn't the half of it. Their Strategem allows deep strike along with a move. So units that want close combat can basically autocharge

**sossen**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Their Strategem allows deep strike along with a move. So units that want close combat can basically autocharge

It does have a big weakness in that you have to "deep strike" the unit before the first turn starts, meaning that if you don't have the first turn then the unit has to be deployed right before your opponent's first turn. You won't know who gets the first turn until after you have already used the stratagem.

**BrianDavion**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Gibs55 wrote:
Now that we know all tactics, some relics and stratagems has anyone's opinion changed?
Yes. Raven Guard went from Broken to LOL! Broken.

whats the ravenguard relic?
A jump pack that allows Advance and Charge in the same turn with Rerolls to charge. In short, they are getting to where they need to be. But that isn't the half of it. Their Strategem allows deep strike along with a move. So units that want close combat can basically autocharge

pretty solid. also allows discount reivers assuming the deep strike rules is an upgrade they need to buy

**sossen**

Double post.

**casvalremdeikun**

BrianDavion wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Gibs55 wrote:
Now that we know all tactics, some relics and stratagems has anyone's opinion changed?
Yes. Raven Guard went from Broken to LOL! Broken.

whats the ravenguard relic?
A jump pack that allows Advance and Charge in the same turn with Rerolls to charge. In short, they are getting to where they need to be. But that isn't the half of it. Their Strategem allows deep strike along with a move. So units that want close combat can basically autocharge

pretty solid. also allows discount reivers assuming the deep strike rules is an upgrade they need to buy

It is an upgrade. Both options cost 2 pts per model. And unlike jump packs, Grav Chutes don't grant Fly, so their one and only bonus is superceded.

**BrianDavion**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Gibs55 wrote:
Now that we know all tactics, some relics and stratagems has anyone's opinion changed?
Yes. Raven Guard went from Broken to LOL! Broken.

whats the ravenguard relic?
A jump pack that allows Advance and Charge in the same turn with Rerolls to charge. In short, they are getting to where they need to be. But that isn't the half of it. Their Strategem allows deep strike along with a move. So units that want close combat can basically autocharge

pretty solid. also allows discount reivers assuming the deep strike rules is an upgrade they need to buy
It is an upgrade. Both options cost 2 pts per model. And unlike jump packs, Grav Chutes don't grant Fly, so their one and only bonus is superceded.

then yeah, it;s an option to get a minor points discount on a squad of reivers.

**Matt.Kingsley**

NorseSig wrote:
Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.

I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)

1. Sergeants in Terminator armor. Is that worded better for you. It may be silly and pure fluff, but it is something IH had and it was taken away. I more than anything want the OPTION to do what we used to be able to do. If SW can do it, then why can't the IH?
2. Except IH aren't supposed to have Chaplains (or a Chapter Master though IH have HQs with their experience and ability, so Chapter Masters in all but name and rank). They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. Which again is a Unique model we had that was taken away. And the Iron Father
unit was Iconic of the Chapter (And was our chaplain tech marine love child of sorts). Plus it is a FW model and they still aren't accepted by everyone.
3. Again, IH used to have a Unique unit. They may not need special units, but their armies are usually made better by using them. This one doesn't bother me as much as the others. I just want a level playing field

I'm sorry to tell you this but... these are no longer fluff.
Iron Hands are now 100% Codex-complaint and Iron Father is no longer a rank but now an honourific title any of the command staff can get (including Chaplain, Captains, Librarians, Techpriests, Apothecaries, etc.)

Hate it all you want, but your fluff changed to make you no longer unique, like how GW are now ignoring the fact that White Scars 'aren't meant' to have Dreadnoughts - they changed the fluff so they DO.

**NivlacSupreme**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
NorseSig wrote:
Time to shut you down.
1. Terminators as Sergeants is stupid. Fluff makes it look neat, but you can't fit anything in a Rhino because of it, and with Pods you won't be able to get your second bought weapon.
2. You can get a Dread as an HQ and it does buffing. Chaplain Dreads. Yeah everyone has then available, but it's still thematic enough for you, yes? A Dread inspiring units?
3. Most Chapters don't have unique units. One can argue Blood AND Dark Angels don't need their special units, and that most rules can be sent to Chapter Tactics. As someone using Iron Hands I don't really care.
4. The Axe Of Medusa doesn't fit what we want to do? It doesn't if you don't build your army for melee. I'm using melee Captains and Librarians, and with the new codex presumably Chapter Masters. Relic Blades are a good choice, so getting one with consistent damage is an even better choice.

I think these are the weakest Chapter Tactics, but there's a lot to be said for the fact the army can be built as you wish, rather than being forced into a specific style with all other revealed choices (outside Salamanders of course, but I suppose that's more around MSU, though not entirely forced...)

1. Sergeants in Terminator armor. Is that worded better for you. It may be silly and pure fluff, but it is something IH had and it was taken away. I more than anything want the OPTION to do what we used to be able to do. If SW can do it, then why can't the IH?
2. Except IH aren't supposed to have Chaplains (or a Chapter Master though IH have HQs with their experience and ability, so Chapter Masters in all but name and rank). They are supposed to have Iron Fathers. Which again is a Unique model we had that was taken away. And the Iron Father
unit was Iconic of the Chapter (And was our chaplain tech marine love child of sorts). Plus it is a FW model and they still aren't accepted by everyone.
3. Again, IH used to have a Unique unit. They may not need special units, but their armies are usually made better by using them. This one doesn't bother me as much as the others. I just want a level playing field

I'm sorry to tell you this but... these are no longer fluff.
Iron Hands are now 100% Codex-complaint and Iron Father is no longer a rank but now an honourific title any of the command staff can get (including Chaplain, Captains, Librarians, Techpriests, Apothecaries, etc.)

Hate it all you want, but your fluff changed to make you no longer unique, like how GW are now ignoring the fact that White Scars 'aren't meant' to have Dreadnoughts - they changed the fluff so they DO.

Because GW is going to force us to follow their fluff.

I know that's not your point but it's still not true.

**Crimson Devil**

NivlacSupreme wrote:

Because GW is going to force us to follow their fluff.

**Gibs55**

Well it seems like IF are probably the weakest. The Black Templar relic is pretty good, that extra 3" will be pretty handy.

Raven Guard still tops dogs I guess

Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvAr9DRmgQ

**Crazyterran**

This is the first time RG has ever been top dog. WS have been for like... the last two or three editions.

In fact, RG used to be the garbage tier one. The character didnt work, the chapter tactic sucked...

**Asura Varuna**

Does it seem likely that the units deploying with the strategem being able to move and charge turn 1 was an oversight? I thought almost every ability that allowed "infiltrate", or even the deceiver's redeployment stipulate that those units can't charge if they deploy with this method.

I wonder if it's something that's going to be swiftly FAQ'd. It could be for consistency as much as because the rule itself is completely bonkers.

**sossen**

Asura Varuna wrote:
Does it seem likely that the units deploying with the strategem being able to move and charge turn 1 was an oversight? I thought almost every ability that allowed "infiltrate", or even the deceiver's redeployment stipulate that those units can't charge if they deploy with this method.

I wonder if it's something that's going to be swiftly FAQ'd. It could be for consistency as much as because the rule itself is completely bonkers.

Don't forget that there's there's at least a 35% that the stratagem doesn't work as intended in the ITC format. You declare that you are using the stratagem during your deployment, so you don't know who gets turn 1. If your opponent gets turn 1 you still have to deep strike your unit before his turn starts.

**BoomWolf**

Well, ITC will obviously have to change as stratagems come out, because they seem to interact with in-game events.

Having to decide in advance cuts off the whole point of "making flexible tactical decision and introduce skilled decision making"

I mean, for the love of god GW actually do something right and create a system where pure skill is the main factor, and you can't "netlist" or "know the result before the game started"-and you shut it down?