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For me it's a toss up between Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Black Templars.

I chose Raven Guard in the end, because that -1 to hit outside of 12" is HUGE!!!

A lot of people are underestimating the Iron Hands. That 6+ has saved my bacon in Dark Eldar many times.

Black Templars aren't shabby. A reroll to charge is very powerful.

The elephant in the room is the Salamander Tactic. It's ONE reroll for the squad to hit and ONE to wound. It's not great. Helps with that ONE heavy weapon, but doesn't benefit an entire unit as much as the Iron Hands, Raven Guard or Templars.

Puscifer wrote:

The elephant in the room is the Salamander Tactic. It's ONE reroll for the squad to hit and ONE to wound. It's not great. Helps with that ONE heavy weapon, but doesn't benefit an entire unit as much as the Iron Hands, Raven Guard or Templars.

It is pretty great. It frees up all of your command points for other stratagems.

The big question now is how long until they release the Codex?

Gibs55 wrote:
The big question now is how long until they release the Codex?

22 July apparently.
Or was it 29 July? There was a release schedule leaked at some point, but I can't be bothered to find it.

Pre orders up this weekend.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

The elephant in the room is the Salamander Tactic. It's ONE reroll for the squad to hit and ONE to wound. It's not great. Helps with that ONE heavy weapon, but doesn't benefit an entire unit as much as the Iron Hands, Raven Guard or Templars.

It is pretty great. It frees up all of your command points for other stratagems.

Hmmm, I can see that being pretty useful. I'd still take the others over it though.

I still think players are underestimating the Templar and Iron Hands.

Reroll to charge with a Chaplain who gives reroll to hit for a Crusader Squad is going to be golden.

I'm looking at making a tough IH build for my Squats. It's coming along nicely, but then I look at the filth that is the RG tactics and think it's really really powerful.

The Salamanders' is absolutely nuts and is clearly the best. If your squad has one heavy weapon hitting and wounding on a 3+, it's a ~77% increase in expected damage for that weapon. It's a 100% increase in expected damage for your one meltagun firing at a Land Raider. It turns every tactical squad into a miniature Devastator squad. It's in the neighborhood of a 30% boost for 4-lascannon Devastator squads. For a twin-las/twin-autocannon dread, it's like giving it an upgrade to a triple-las for free, plus a bonus autocannon shot. It's like a 20% increase in firepower even for 5 bolter marines rapid-firing. It's more or less a bonus attack for your best close combat model in every fight. In basically every case it increases a unit's offensive capabilities by far more than the Raven Guard's or Iron Hands' tactics boost their defense, and offensive boosts are better here because the tactic doesn't apply to all of your units and your opponent can just shoot the stuff that's easier to kill first.

The Salamanders' tactic works out to be worth a ton of points even if you already have a re-roll 1s to hit aura on the unit, but of course it also enables your units to operate much more independently and not be tied down to buff HQs.

I think people aren't bothering to do the math for Raven Guard vs Iron Hands. Raven Guard aren't that much better than Iron Hands against BS3+ even when they get to use their tactic. It's like 5.5+ FNP compared to 6+ FNP. That's nice, but of course the Iron Hands get their FNP all the time, even at close range, in CC, and against mortal wounds. These two tactics both strike me as really strong and about comparably good.

Raven Guard are going to be even harder to remove from the board for a lot of armies now. Get a bunch of intercessors into cover and they'll be even harder to remove than before.

Salamanders CT seems really strong too, especially if you run a lot of MSU. Only thing I'd say though is that SM already have some access to rerolling misses and failed wounds (captain/lieutenant).

Iron Hands CT is up there as well, giving them FNP is going to keep your guys on the board and even lessen multi-wounds done to vehicles.Gives some slight protection from mortal wounds too.

Templars, Fists and Scars seem ok, if not rather situational. Ultras seem like they have ended up with the worst. The LD buff is ok, but I doubt you'll be able to retreat from combat with any meaningful firepower if someone has already charged you.

The math for Raven Guard is fairly simple.

Vs 3+ BS, you take 25% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 4+ BS, you take 33% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 5+ BS, you take 50% less casualties instead of 16%
And vs 6s, you cannot be hit, period.

Yes, Iron Hands are tougher versus Mortal Wounds or melee. However, shooting is so universal (and easier to project), and is only ignores by getting within close range quarters which Marines excel at (and say what you want but you will not get your entire army within 12" of a Marine army unless they dictate that engagement) and it's really a no-contest.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The math for Raven Guard is fairly simple.

Vs 3+ BS, you take 25% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 4+ BS, you take 33% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 5+ BS, you take 66% less casualties instead of 16%
And vs 6s, you cannot be hit, period.

Yes, Iron Hands are tougher versus Mortal Wounds or melee. However, shooting is so universal (and easier to project), and is only ignores by getting within close range quarters which Marines excel at (and say what you want but you will not get your entire army within 12" of a Marine army unless they dictate that engagement) and it's really a no-contest.

And RG CT can be boosted in other ways. Anything that gives a penalty to shooting ect.

Soo... I wonder what my chaos army is going to get...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The math for Raven Guard is fairly simple.

Vs 3+ BS, you take 25% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 4+ BS, you take 33% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 5+ BS, you take 50% less casualties instead of 16%
And vs 6s, you cannot be hit, period.

Yes, Iron Hands are tougher versus Mortal Wounds or melee. However, shooting is so universal (and easier to project), and is only ignores by getting within close range quarters which Marines excel at (and say what you want but you will not get your entire army within 12" of a Marine army unless they dictate that engagement) and it's really a no-contest.

This really hasn't been my experience at all. In most games I've seen or played of 8th, most of the shooting directed at infantry was from less than 12" or could easily have been from less than 12", CC has often been a major factor for infantry and dreads, and Smite is fairly common and often hits infantry (and often the defending player wants it to hit infantry). Like, what are you running up against that's so much more inconvenienced by the RG tactic than by the IH tactic?

Space Marines really like long-range anti-tank shooting and short-range anti-infantry shooting. You tend to see a lot of Lascannons and Assault Cannons. The Lascannons are often on BS2+ platforms since the FW stuff just seems better than the index stuff. These aren't shooting infantry anyway, though they will go after your dreads. Assault Cannons have short ranges and are often on fast platforms that could get within 12" if they really wanted to. Stormravens are of course very popular and they can easily get within 12" of the things they want to shoot.

Guard are going to want to use plasma drop squads against your dreads. Vultures can easily get within 12" to shoot and only have a 24" range anyway. It's true that -1 to hit makes mortar teams a lot less effective against your infantry. Artillery is hurt a lot by the Raven Guard tactic but infantry seem like a stronger choice for Guard anyway in 8th.

Of other Imperium subfactions: Sisters tend to be shooting you from very close anyway. Adeptus Mechanicus has Cawl, who lets them reroll all hits rather than failed hits so the tactic only really hits them like they're BS3+, though you're still going to prefer RG to IH here. Grey Knights tend to want to be close to you.

The best Chaos lists appear to involve lots of Daemon Princes (melee) and (if people have the models) Horrors (mortal wounds). Magnus is fantastic (mortal wounds and melee) as is the incredibly overpowered Forgeworld Tzeentch LoW.

Eldar of all varieties are typically built around a ton of short-range shooting. It is not uncommon for lists to not have a single gun with a range over 24", often on extremely mobile platforms that don't have much trouble getting close. Dark Eldar of course have lots of dark lances but these will tend to prioritize non-infantry (if your only vehicles are dreads this can work out for you). Wave Serpents shoot 24". The Guardians inside them only ever shoot 12" anyway. Wraithguard shoot 8-12". Fire Dragons shoot 12". Hemlocks move 80" and only shoot 16". Dark Reapers shoot 48" but also don't care about your modifier. Dark Eldar splinter cannons want to be within 18" to rapid fire and splinter rifles want to be within 12". Blasterborn only shoot 18". The Tantalus is often going to Advance anyway to move like 32" to get within 12" so things inside it can shoot you too. Harlequins are CC-oriented with pistols. Ynnari want to be within 7" of your units regardless.

You want to close with Necrons yourself because you need to maximize your damage output to put down whole squads in a turn. Necrons win if you stand and shoot from 24", even with the RG tactic. I suppose this works out for you if your list is just about going all-out firepower and you can wipe 20-man Warrior squads from range, though this tends not to be a Marine specialty. Regardless, Salamanders are so much better against Necrons than either RG or IH that I'm not sure it's worth spending much time thinking about this.

The RG tactic cripples ranged Ork shooting but of course mostly Orks are looking to get you into CC. Even shootas are trying to charge you, and they only shoot 18" anyway.

Tyranids are again very CC-oriented. The RG tactic does nothing about Genestealers and Trygons and the Swarmlord. Often they only have 18" guns anyway and are trying to get as close to you as possible.

For Tau, Commanders are basically just categorically superior to Crisis Suits, and have BS2+. They also tend to like short-ranged weapons like the fusion gun. Gun drones only shoot 18". Breacher teams want to be as close as possible. Ghostkeels want to be at only 18". The FW Y'vhara can barely shoot past 12" anyway. The RG tactic is really nice for dreads against Hammerheads as long as you've already killed Longstrike. It also offers good protection against Fire Warrior gunlines for your infantry.

So as far as I can tell, the only common lists that the RG tactic really shines against are lots of Guard artillery (which is the less effective way to bring Guard in 8th) and maybe some Tau lists. You'll want IH against Tyranids, Eldar, and most Chaos. It appears to me to be competitive against most other things you're likely to come up against.

 MinscS2 wrote:
7: Black Templars.

Hard mode. Just the way we like it.

Anyone saying the Black Templars have the worst tactic are insane.

A reroll for a unit Deep Striking at the closest distance has only a slightly below 50% chance to make the charge. Add on units that will be closer than 9" and you're golden.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying the Black Templars have the worst tactic are insane.

A reroll for a unit Deep Striking at the closest distance has only a slightly below 50% chance to make the charge. Add on units that will be closer than 9" and you're golden.

You dont even have to burn your command points to reroll which is nice.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying the Black Templars have the worst tactic are insane.

No I'm fairly certain I'm sane still.

Saying they have the worst CT doesn't mean it's bad. It's just very situational (doesn't help ranged units) and most of the time it won't have any effect (if the unit succeeds on their chargeroll without the need for a reroll, of if they fail even with the reroll.)
#1 If you're moving up the table, it doesn't do anything.
#2 If you're shooting your opponent, it doesn't do anything,
#3 If you're fighting with your opponent in CC, it doesn't do anything.
#4 If you're being shot or struck by your opponent, it doesn't do anything.
All the other CT's help their chapter in at least one of the above scenarios.

I've played afew games with my World Eaters in 8th, and that reroll is nice, but it usually doesn't do much. Besides, if you need a 9" charge, and you roll a 6 and a 2. Would you use your CT and reroll both dice, or use a CP and just reroll the 3? If you use the CP, you pretty much waste your CT.

Edit: Seems the poll agree with me to some extent as well, BT are dead last. Again, it isn't bad, it's just not as good as the others.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone saying the Black Templars have the worst tactic are insane.

No I'm fairly certain I'm sane still.

Saying they have the worst CT doesn't mean it's bad. It's just very situational (doesn't help ranged units) and most of the time it won't have any effect (if the unit succeeds on their chargeroll without the need for a reroll, of if they fail even with the reroll.)
#1 If you're moving up the table, it doesn't do anything.
#2 If you're shooting your opponent, it doesn't do anything,
#3 If you're fighting with your opponent in CC, it doesn't do anything.
#4 If you're being shot or struck by your opponent, it doesn't do anything.
All the other CT's help their chapter in at least one of the above scenarios.

I've played afew games with my World Eaters in 8th, and that reroll is nice, but it usually doesn't do much. Besides, if you need a 9" charge, and you roll a 6 and a 2. Would you use your CT and reroll both dice, or use a CP and just reroll the 3? If you use the CP, you pretty much waste your CT.

Edit: Seems the poll agree with me to some extent as well, BT are dead last. Again, it isn't bad, it's just not as good as the others.

That's like saying Raven Guard is situational because it doesn't help outside 12". That's a dumb statement and you know it. You build around THAT Chapter Tactic, so why isn't this one being built around in your post? The only Chapter Tactic that can't be built around is Iron Hands.

To answer your question, I'd save the CP and just reroll both dice. It's a 48% chance to make the charge with the reroll. All you need is 2-3 Assault Squads or Vanguard to make it to help get the rest of your units safely on over.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's like saying Raven Guard is situational because it doesn't help outside 12". That's a dumb statement and you know it.

No, it isn't the same at all.

RG units can benefit from their CT pretty much during an entire game. Everytime someone outside 12" shoots at them, and that's alot of times during a game. Their CT's "uptime" is massive.
It also (and I'm tired of stating this), benefits all of their units, not just those who attempts to charge something.

Meanwhile, BT's benefit from their CT when they charge, and only when they charge. How often does a unit charge during a game on average? Not many. Now substract every time that the CT isn't needed (because the reroll isnt needed) or doesn't do anything (because the fail charges even with a reroll.)

You're free to consider the BT CT awesome, you're even allowed to consider it to be the best. But don't go around and insult people who think it's the worst.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's like saying Raven Guard is situational because it doesn't help outside 12". That's a dumb statement and you know it.

No, it isn't the same at all.

RG units can benefit from their CT pretty much during an entire game. Everytime someone outside 12" shoots at them, and that's alot of times during a game. Their CT's "uptime" is massive.
It also (and I'm tired of stating this), benefits all of their units, not just those who attempts to charge something.

Meanwhile, BT's benefit from their CT when they charge, and only when they charge. How often does a unit charge during a game on average? Not many. Now substract every time that the CT isn't needed (because the reroll isnt needed) or doesn't do anything (because the fail charges even with a reroll.)

You're free to consider the BT CT awesome, you're even allowed to consider it to be the best. But don't go around and insult people who think it's the worst.

No it IS the same thing. Raven Guard can't always benefit from their Tactic, Imperial Fists can't always benefit from their Tactic, and Ultramarines can't always benefit from theirs. If you're strictly looking at it that way, the only ones that are contenders for the best are Iron Hands and Salamanders.

I mean, I'd agree that the Raven Guard tactic is clearly a lot more conditional than the Iron Hands one. That's the whole point -- it's stronger when it applies but the IH applies to a lot more. There are matchups where the RG tactic will barely do anything for you.

But the Templars one is such that it will almost only ever be relevant for a few units each game, unless you have a very particular kind of list. And even then it provides very little benefit if you're only charging one or two units in a turn, since you could use a CP instead. It's also not obvious that deep striking a bunch of stuff and trying to charge with it is a particularly good TAC strategy even if you can re-roll charges.

It also provides much less benefit if any of your charges are happening at close ranges, but making 7" charges is still unlikely enough that you have an incentive to try to get much closer, so you're going to play in such a way as to minimize the value of the tactic. Yeah, it means that you're 70% more likely to make your 9" charge, but you're still only actually making the charge about half of the time. You're 43% more likely to make a 7" charge, so the benefit is a lot smaller, and you're still gambling on rolling a 2+ on a d6, essentially. At 5" you're only 28% more likely to make the charge. I seem to find that, outside of deep striking, a pretty high percentage of my charges are happening from point-blank range. I moved into position the turn before, and then the enemy either runs away, so then I can't charge, or they step forward to shoot at me. If they step forward, I can also move forward and then have a guaranteed charge.

These are all fantastic abilities, but the -1 to hit against the Raven Guard is going to come up most frequently against the most number of armies. For that reason it edges out my #2, which is the Salamander's Chapter Tactic. The reason being that all of their heavy weapons become way better. For #3 I'm going to have to say Ultramarines, because the +1Ld will save random Marines, and having the best part of Fly for no cost is insanity.

The "bottom barrel" is still really good stuff. Iron Hands are my #4, because saving 1/6th of your army tends to be good, but the exact mix of this ability combined with how ineffective it is against multi-damage weapons makes this less effective than the other tactics, as it'll matter a bit less often than the others. #5 is the White Scars ability to charge after falling back is almost as good as the Ultramarine's ability, as there are a lot of times with close combat armies that you want to get out and charge again, either against the same or different targets. The 2" extra Advancing is just gravy, but with so few Assault weapons in the Space Marine army, something that has real costs associated with it.

Imperial Fists sounds amazing at first, but there's just a lot more steps involved in needing this to go right, especially because it's so hard for non-infantry units to gain cover. For that reason, something that sounds fantastic won't be quite as good as the other abilities. Last place is Black Templars, despite this ability being phenomenal. Re-rolling charge ranges is almost as good as spending a Command Point (though the latter is overall better due to the precision-nature of the reroll). That said, this one is also the most subject to skew in that a skewed assault-list will benefit a TON from this ability.

Guess we'll see!

 Yarium wrote:

Imperial Fists sounds amazing at first, but there's just a lot more steps involved in needing this to go right, especially because it's so hard for non-infantry units to gain cover. For that reason, something that sounds fantastic won't be quite as good as the other abilities. Last place is Black Templars, despite this ability being phenomenal. Re-rolling charge ranges is almost as good as spending a Command Point (though the latter is overall better due to the precision-nature of the reroll). That said, this one is also the most subject to skew in that a skewed assault-list will benefit a TON from this ability.

Guess we'll see!

For the fists. its a minor help and it gaks on camo cloak units. but thinking about it. most heavy shooty armies will focus down flyers and heavy tanks first turn from out side of 12" anyway so the raven guard one only works if you really focus your list on doods on the ground being able to do things (and dreads)

as to black templars thats a good point. didnt even think about it. rerolling one dice vs both dice. but as it is a may ability you could always keep the 6 and reroll that one with a command point instead. and snake eyes are supposed to come up less frequently so it devalues that CT a little bit.

then again i cant complain ether about an assault army getting a free assault based buff any day.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The math for Raven Guard is fairly simple.

Vs 3+ BS, you take 25% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 4+ BS, you take 33% less casualties instead of 16%.
Vs 5+ BS, you take 50% less casualties instead of 16%
And vs 6s, you cannot be hit, period.

Yes, Iron Hands are tougher versus Mortal Wounds or melee. However, shooting is so universal (and easier to project), and is only ignores by getting within close range quarters which Marines excel at (and say what you want but you will not get your entire army within 12" of a Marine army unless they dictate that engagement) and it's really a no-contest.

Yes, again I agree RG is generally better, but while long range shooting is universal it's very often targeting things CTs don't apply to. Some infantry, bikers, and dreadnoughts do want to sit at long range (scouts, devastators, the heavy weapon bikes, centurions, rifleman dreads), but the majority of those units are normally focused on closing the distance, often in a rhino further negating the usefulness of this.

It can certainly be better for certain builds, of that their is no doubt. But those are builds involving lots of long range infantry and dreadnoughts. But SM already have builds that do this well using certain tanks and flyers, while CT's that boost assault and objective grabbing units likely to be closer to the enemy might offer something the RG will have trouble finding.

I could be totally wrong, but I really think this is a situation people will find themselves less enamored as time goes on.

 NorseSig wrote:
And RG CT can be boosted in other ways. Anything that gives a penalty to shooting ect.

Do we know what happens if you have two abilities that both let you roll to ignore a wound? Has that been FAQ'd or anything?

I assumed you just roll the best, but on consideration i don't remember anything indicating you can't roll one then the other, such as DG/IH warlord with the ignore wound on a 6 warlord trait. Just curious.

As far as I know, you roll both in turn. An Iron Hand venerable dread has 2 6+ chances to ignore a wound.

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm a big surprised no one is considering iron fists. Sure, RG is going to ignore more damage when it factors in, by iron fists will have theirs even in close combat or short range shooting, not to mention attacks which don't roll to hit like mortal wounds from psychic powers and flamers.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


What do you mean by choosing the CT ideal for the Unit? CTs are chosen for the whole army.

By army, do you mean detachment? So if one could field say 3 detachments, their army could comprise of 3 different ct's. No?

We don't actually know. There may or may not be other limitations to prevent it.

Well here's me of little faith assuming gw will make the usual decision they tend to make when contemplating any limitation, better not. Sadly.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

Remember kids, if you fire your plasma weapons overcharged every. Single. Shot. Then its bound to mathematically blow up more often!

Im so tired of everyone posting stuff like that, acting like theres only one firing mode: overcharged

 Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

Remember kids, if you fire your plasma weapons overcharged every. Single. Shot. Then its bound to mathematically blow up more often!

Im so tired of everyone posting stuff like that, acting like theres only one firing mode: overcharged

Stopping the enemy overcharging their plasma is an insanely powerful boon, especially to bike/terminator/primaris-heavy armies.

 Melissia wrote:
As far as I know, you roll both in turn. An Iron Hand venerable dread has 2 6+ chances to ignore a wound.

And the Ven Dread is the only unit that really benefits from the IH CT. That does not make it a good CT. One unit being reliable because of a CT does not make the CT good. One outlier does not make a CT good. I am repeating myself at this point. Seriously, this is part of the exact same CT we had in 6th and 7th. Even with it working on mortal wounds it is not good. It is a novelty more than anything.

 NorseSig wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
As far as I know, you roll both in turn. An Iron Hand venerable dread has 2 6+ chances to ignore a wound.

And the Ven Dread is the only unit that really benefits from the IH CT. That does not make it a good CT. One unit being reliable because of a CT does not make the CT good. One outlier does not make a CT good. I am repeating myself at this point. Seriously, this is part of the exact same CT we had in 6th and 7th. Even with it working on mortal wounds it is not good. It is a novelty more than anything.

I really don't understand why people say that the venerable dread somehow benefits from this tactic more than other units... It becomes 17% more resilient than it was, just like every other unit with this trait.

I think it is pretty decent trait, it is just overshadowed by Sallies and RG. But if IH get supergood stratagem and relic, this might be OK.

 NorseSig wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
As far as I know, you roll both in turn. An Iron Hand venerable dread has 2 6+ chances to ignore a wound.

And the Ven Dread is the only unit that really benefits from the IH CT. That does not make it a good CT. One unit being reliable because of a CT does not make the CT good. One outlier does not make a CT good. I am repeating myself at this point. Seriously, this is part of the exact same CT we had in 6th and 7th. Even with it working on mortal wounds it is not good. It is a novelty more than anything.

Except it also works on high strength now too. I'm not sure where you're getting that it isn't good. Against 1 damage weapons you are just straight up 17% more durable than everyone else at all times. I would gladly take that over furious charge, because that's exactly what they're going to lazily stick my BA with again.