Strongest Space Marine Chapter Tactic?

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**Talamare**

Until we see the book stating that CTs only affect Infantry, Bikers, and Dreads. I'm going to assume that CTs affect every model.

I saw the post that listed those 3, but it doesn't mean that that was a conclusive list.

**Voss**

BrianDavion wrote:
one thing to consider is CTs are only part of the puzzle, stratigiums and relics are also a big factor here too. so those could take a army with a strong CT and make it less desireable then one with a less powerful one.

True, and the Raven's stratgeriuminium is pretty much counter to their chapter tactic. 'Back here, we're safe*- deploy forward!'
*as long as the enemy doesn't move.

Salamanders seems straight up best. Free rerolls per unit on weapons that matter. Abandon flamers, go for big guns.

I'm curious what sort of nonsense the legions will get or if it will just be a mirror thing/subsumed under what marks already do. If Iron Warriors are just different colored Imp Fists, it's going to be complaining time. (Again)

**Talamare**

Salamanders should have been each unit may reroll 1 wound roll

Raven Guard should have been vs units that Advance, enemies -1 to hit

**NorseSig**

Except it also works on high strength now too. I'm not sure where you're getting that it isn't good. Against 1 damage weapons you are just straight up 17% more durable than everyone else at all times. I would gladly take that over furious charge, because that's exactly what they're going to lazily stick my BA with again.

The high strength thing rarely ever came up. At least not for me. My meta forced me into smash, bikes (command squads), and centurions. The times when I ran gladius the odd 6+ just wasn't useful. Saving a tactical isn't exactly good. The everything is scoring is what won me those games. Medusa strike force left me with more models and made the fnp reliable but lacked the scoring ability needed to win. It isn't good because you can't count on it saving what you need it to save or doing it at the time you need it. It is a complete crap shoot. You can't game it. You can't build around it. You can't maximize it's effectiveness.

I really don't understand why people say that the venerable dread somehow benefits from this tactic more than other units... It becomes 17% more resilient than it was, just like every other unit with this trait.

It is essentially a reroll. Rerolls are good.

**Gibs55**

One thing that is becoming more clear is that while a good tactic is great. If it does not synergise well will special units, characters and stratagems the chapter might not be as powerful as first thought.

Take the two that we seem to think are the best -1 to hit and re-roll one hit and wound.

The Raven guard stratagem that we have seen does not appear to work in well with the -1 to hit bonus. The Salamanders Flamers really only benefit from the wound re-roll and some characters might be redundant in certain situations. This isn't to say those abilities are not amazing or they wont get better synergising stratagems, just that its not panic stations just yet.

What I think we might see is that armies that receive really powerful stratagems wont double up in the synergies as much from their stratagems.

**Crimson**

NorseSig wrote:

Crimson wrote:I really don't understand why people say that the venerable dread somehow benefits from this tactic more than other units... It becomes 17% more resilient than it was, just like every other unit with this trait.

It is essentially a reroll. Rerolls are good.

This doesn't make any sense nor does it answer my question.

JJ

Edit: Misunderstood post, carry on!

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Talamare wrote:
Until we see the book stating that CTs only affect Infantry, Bikers, and Dreads. I'm going to assume that CTs affect every model.

I saw the post that listed those 3, but it doesn't mean that that was a conclusive list.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Warhammer Community wrote: ...with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.

**BrianDavion**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Talamare wrote:
Until we see the book stating that CTs only affect Infantry, Bikers, and Dreads. I'm going to assume that CTs affect every model.

I saw the post that listed those 3, but it doesn't mean that that was a conclusive list.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Warhammer Community wrote: ...with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.

Apparently being told something by Gamesworkshop isn't good eneugh and he is assume it'll be other then what they say because that'd limit his ability to say the sky is falling

**VictorVonTzeentch**

BrianDavion wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Talamare wrote:
Until we see the book stating that CTs only affect Infantry, Bikers, and Dreads. I'm going to assume that CTs affect every model.

I saw the post that listed those 3, but it doesn't mean that that was a conclusive list.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Warhammer Community wrote: ...with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.

Apparently being told something by Gamesworkshop isn't good eneugh and he is assume it'll be other then what they say because that'd limit his ability to say the sky is falling

I mean, I get where he's coming from (I'm still not 100% sold on Marines being able to upgrade themselves to Primaris), but thats pretty blatant comparatively.

**NorseSig**

This doesn't make any sense nor does it answer my question.

Getting a reroll improves your chances of getting the desired effect. Thought that was a pretty basic concept everyone understood.

**Crimson**

NorseSig wrote:

Getting a reroll improves your chances of getting the desired effect. Thought that was a pretty basic concept everyone understood.

*headdesk*

We are comparing reroll to existing save to getting a save in the first place. Why is the former better than the latter? Why is this second FNP roll suddenly more valuable than the first, can you explain me this? Why is the venerable dread becoming 17% more resilient good, while the regular dread becoming 17% more resilient isn't?

**Matt.Kingsley**

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

Remember kids, if you fire your plasma weapons overcharged every. Single. Shot. Then its bound to mathematically blow up more often!

Im so tired of everyone posting stuff like that, acting like theres only one firing mode: overcharged

too be fair, some units only have an overcharged profile.
Kharn the Betrayer, Contemptor Ectoplasma Blasters, Deredeo Ectoplasma Batteries.

I'd hate to be a Chaos player that fields those against Raven Guard.

**Desubot**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

Remember kids, if you fire your plasma weapons overcharged every. Single. Shot. Then its bound to mathematically blow up more often!

Im so tired of everyone posting stuff like that, acting like theres only one firing mode: overcharged

too be fair, some units only have an overcharged profile.
Kharn the Betrayer, Contemptor Ectoplasma Blasters, Deredeo Ectoplasma Batteries.

I'd hate to be a Chaos player that fields those against Raven Guard.

Shoot the overcharge at tanks or get up close into punch town range so it doesnt effect them..? what are these sissy heretics doing on their own side of the field still

**Dionysodorus**

I've played at least a dozen games of 8th and last night was the first time I've ever actually seen an overcharged plasma gun used from more than 12" away. And that was because there was a wall in the way and I needed to move back and on to a hill in order to see the Land Raider.

**casvalremdeikun**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

Remember kids, if you fire your plasma weapons overcharged every. Single. Shot. Then its bound to mathematically blow up more often!

Im so tired of everyone posting stuff like that, acting like theres only one firing mode: overcharged

too be fair, some units only have an overcharged profile.
Kharn the Betrayer, Contemptor Ectoplasma Blasters, Deredeo Ectoplasma Batteries.

I'd hate to be a Chaos player that fields those against Raven Guard.

The Contemptor and Deredeo are screwed, but if Khârn is able to shoot a RG, they aren't getting their bonus in the first place.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

Remember kids, if you fire your plasma weapons overcharged every. Single. Shot. Then its bound to mathematically blow up more often!

Im so tired of everyone posting stuff like that, acting like theres only one firing mode: overcharged

too be fair, some units only have an overcharged profile.
Kharn the Betrayer, Contemptor Ectoplasma Blasters, Deredeo Ectoplasma Batteries.

I'd hate to be a Chaos player that fields those against Raven Guard.

Luckily none of them are actually dying and you still hit them on a 3+?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what do you MEAN Kharn? His pistol is 12"...

**SilverAlien**

MinscS2 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's like saying Raven Guard is situational because it doesn't help outside 12". That's a dumb statement and you know it.

No, it isn't the same at all.

RG units can benefit from their CT pretty much during an entire game. Everytime someone outside 12" shoots at them, and that's alot of times during a game. Their CT's "uptime" is massive.
It also (and I'm tired of stating this), benefits all of their units, not just those who attempts to charge something.

Meanwhile, BT's benefit from their CT when they charge, and only when they charge. How often does a unit charge during a game on average? Not many. Now substract every time that the CT isn't needed (because the reroll isnt needed) or doesn't do anything (because the fail charges even with a reroll.)

You're free to consider the BT CT awesome, you're even allowed to consider it to be the best. But don't go around and insult people who think it's the worst.

I'd point out the RG tactic won't actually benefit every unit every turn, the same way the BT won't.

For example, if you deepstrike your unit have it loaded up in a rhino, it won't apply. In fact, it's fairly unlike the RG tactic will apply that often unless you build for it. How many SM lists current focus on dreads and non mechanized infantry while neglecting fliers and tanks? If you end up facing an enemy army that focuses on short range shooting (lots of deep strike plasma/melta, or deep strike assault) they may actually find they don't benefit much at all.

It's a good tactic to build around, but if you don't I think you might be surprised how little it crops up. Same with BT, if half you army is deepstriking to assault turn one, the tactic pulls a lot of weight.

**Matt.Kingsley**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

Remember kids, if you fire your plasma weapons overcharged every. Single. Shot. Then its bound to mathematically blow up more often!

Im so tired of everyone posting stuff like that, acting like theres only one firing mode: overcharged

too be fair, some units only have an overcharged profile.
Kharn the Betrayer, Contemptor Ectoplasma Blasters, Deredeo Ectoplasma Batteries.

I'd hate to be a Chaos player that fields those against Raven Guard.
The Contemptor and Deredeo are screwed, but if Khârn is able to shoot a RG, they aren't getting their bonus in the first place.

True yeah, for some reason I was thinking '12" or more' rather than 'more than 12"'

**Malifice**

Unusual Suspect wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:
Unusual Suspect wrote:
I went with Salamanders, but Raven Guard were extremely close behind.

Salamanders CT are very good, close second IMO. The CP comparison isn't perfect because you're only re-rolling hit/wound and not say damage output (obv one could still use a cp for that). It's still good but trends towards high damage heavy weapons. The flat out -1 for all RG bikes/infantry/dreads still strikes me as stronger, there are other ways to get re-rolls on the hitting side of things.

Lets put actual numbers in, to really understand how much the Sally benefit is (and yes, the CP number is a bit over the top as a comparison, but it really has the potential to be worth every illusory CP spent):

5 Bolter marines firing at Fire Warriors (their fault for daring to include the word "fire" in their name, I suppose):

You're almost certain to miss at least one, so you get to reroll that miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time (barring penalties). Further, as you're firing bolters, you're bound to fail at least one to-wound roll. Congrats, you effectively gained an extra "hit" that you wouldn't have had otherwise, which wounds 2/3 of the time.

That means the bolter marines get an extra 2/3*2/3 (chance of extra hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) wounds inflicted above and beyond what they would have gotten otherwise, or just over one (10/9ths) extra bolter wounds per shooting phase.
At 12" or greater, you go from 2.22 wounds per round to 3.33 wounds per round (both inflicted, not unsaved - the important thing is the ratio). That's nothing less than a 50% increase in firepower, for a weapon type that honestly benefits the least from this CT.
At <12", you're still going from 4.44 wounds per round to 5.56, or a roughly 25% increase in firepower. That's still not bad at ALL.

5 Devastator marines firing 4 lascannons at a Hammerhead (because it aimed one of its eyes at the Devastators funny, and that gak won't fly):

We'll just ignore the bolter for now and consider the lascannons. Of those 4 lascannons, 1 is likely to miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time. Further, as you've got about 3 rolls, you're likely to roll a failure to wound at least once. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON hit you wouldn't have had otherwise.

This time, however, we've only fired 4 Lascannons, so we've only inflicted 1.78 lascannon wounds without the CT. With the CT, you end up with 2.89 lascannon wounds inflicted.

...Ladies and gentlemen, that is nothing less than 62.5% increase in your lascannon's output on its choicest target.

And the biggest thing, the most important thing, the thing that makes this absolutely bonkers... you STILL can use your CP, so instead of wasting one just to get another Lascannon hit or wound on the target, you now get to spend it boosting pure, unadulterated damage most of the time. And you now have an extra dice to roll, so you don't feel you need to "waste" a CP reroll on a damage roll of 2 or 3 (since you'll probably have a 1 or 2 that would benefit more anyway).

But lets not forget about Dreads! Lets take a vet Rifleman Dread firing two twin autocannons at a Shas'o Ralai (not because he is a threat - he isn't - but purely out of spite)

Of those 8 shots, only one is likely to miss. Congrats, you... well, you probably know the drill, but this time you're getting an extra 5/6 of a hit. With 7 or 8 hits, you're almost certain to fail at least one to-wound. Congrats, you're... getting bored with this format.

Lets just hit the numbers. 5/6*2/3 (chance to hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) = 11/9 extra wounds inflicted.

Since the baseline output is 4.44, you're looking at a 27.5% increase in effective firepower. Not as awesome as other circumstances, but still pretty damn awesome to have just for showing up.

And the rub, which still hasn't really been addressed yet, is that these sorts of effectiveness boosts (generally for MSU or small quantities of shooting on a unit-per-unit level) will apply each game, every game, all game, no matter who your opponent is or what he brings to the table, because its an inherent ability with NO mitigating circumstances.

Ravenguard's effective defensive bonus is also variable - at best, it doubles the defensive bonus (against BS5+), it diminishes to a 50% defensive bonus against BS4+, it diminishes further to 33% defensive bonus against BS3+, and drops to 25% against BS2+.

A good half the armies in this game are BS3+ baseline, and a significant portion of the armies have viable melee builds that can completely and utterly ignore any and all benefit the Raven Guard gain from their Chapter. All of it, meaningless, against one of only two categories of armies in the game (and particularly a playstyle that has recieved a significant boost from 8e in general).

I mean, seriously, Raven Guard is the Bee's Knees, but it has mitigating factors that prevent it from being nearly as powerful (either against an entire category of armies, or against a skillful opponent that know why and how to play aggressively), while Sallies... Sallies just keep on keepin on bein' strong to right the wrong.

This ^^^

Salamanders get an insane force multiplier.

The only mitigating thing is that re-rolls are already provided by characters, but still. People are seriously not mathing out the advantage of this.

**argonak**

I think the Ravenguard tactic might work out very well for an assault army setup, like the Carcharadons would want, rather than using it purely as a defense for long range shooting.

**Gibs55**

Malifice wrote:
Unusual Suspect wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:
Unusual Suspect wrote:
I went with Salamanders, but Raven Guard were extremely close behind.

Salamanders CT are very good, close second IMO. The CP comparison isn't perfect because you're only re-rolling hit/wound and not say damage output (obv one could still use a cp for that). It's still good but trends towards high damage heavy weapons. The flat out -1 for all RG bikes/infantry/dreads still strikes me as stronger, there are other ways to get re-rolls on the hitting side of things.

Lets put actual numbers in, to really understand how much the Sally benefit is (and yes, the CP number is a bit over the top as a comparison, but it really has the potential to be worth every illusory CP spent):

5 Bolter marines firing at Fire Warriors (their fault for daring to include the word "fire" in their name, I suppose):

You're almost certain to miss at least one, so you get to reroll that miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time (barring penalties). Further, as you're firing bolters, you're bound to fail at least one to-wound roll. Congrats, you effectively gained an extra "hit" that you wouldn't have had otherwise, which wounds 2/3 of the time.

That means the bolter marines get an extra 2/3*2/3 (chance of extra hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) wounds inflicted above and beyond what they would have gotten otherwise, or just over one (10/9ths) extra bolter wounds per shooting phase.
At 12" or greater, you go from 2.22 wounds per round to 3.33 wounds per round (both inflicted, not unsaved - the important thing is the ratio). That's nothing less than a 50% increase in firepower, for a weapon type that honestly benefits the least from this CT.
At <12", you're still going from 4.44 wounds per round to 5.56, or a roughly 25% increase in firepower. That's still not bad at ALL.

5 Devastator marines firing 4 lascannons at a Hammerhead (because it aimed one of its eyes at the Devastators funny, and that gak won't fly):

We'll just ignore the bolter for now and consider the lascannons. Of those 4 lascannons, 1 is likely to miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time. Further, as you've got about 3 rolls, you're likely to roll a failure to wound at least once. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON hit you wouldn't have had otherwise.

This time, however, we've only fired 4 Lascannons, so we've only inflicted 1.78 lascannon wounds without the CT. With the CT, you end up with 2.89 lascannon wounds inflicted.

...Ladies and gentlemen, that is nothing less than 62.5% increase in your lascannon's output on its choicest target.

And the biggest thing, the most important thing, the thing that makes this absolutely bonkers... you STILL can use your CP, so instead of wasting one just to get another Lascannon hit or wound on the target, you now get to spend it boosting pure, unadulterated damage most of the time. And you now have an extra dice to roll, so you don't feel you need to "waste" a CP reroll on a damage roll of 2 or 3 (since you'll probably have a 1 or 2 that would benefit more anyway).

But lets not forget about Dreads! Lets take a vet Rifleman Dread firing two twin autocannons at a Shas'o Ralai (not because he is a threat - he isn't - but purely out of spite)

Of those 8 shots, only one is likely to miss. Congrats, you... well, you probably know the drill, but this time you're getting an extra 5/6 of a hit. With 7 or 8 hits, you're almost certain to fail at least one to-wound. Congrats, you're... getting bored with this format.

Lets just hit the numbers. 5/6*2/3 (chance to hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) = 11/9 extra wounds inflicted.

Since the baseline output is 4.44, you're looking at a 27.5% increase in effective firepower. Not as awesome as other circumstances, but still pretty damn awesome to have just for showing up.

And the rub, which still hasn't really been addressed yet, is that these sorts of effectiveness boosts (generally for MSU or small quantities of shooting on a unit-per-unit level) will apply each game, every game, all game, no matter who your opponent is or what he brings to the table, because its an inherent ability with NO mitigating circumstances.

Ravenguard's effective defensive bonus is also variable - at best, it doubles the defensive bonus (against BS5+), it diminishes to a 50% defensive bonus against BS4+, it diminishes further to 33% defensive bonus against BS3+, and drops to 25% against BS2+.

A good half the armies in this game are BS3+ baseline, and a significant portion of the armies have viable melee builds that can completely and utterly ignore any and all benefit the Raven Guard gain from their Chapter. All of it, meaningless, against one of only two categories of armies in the game (and particularly a playstyle that has recieved a significant boost from 8e in general).

I mean, seriously, Raven Guard is the Bee's Knees, but it has mitigating factors that prevent it from being nearly as powerful (either against an entire category of armies, or against a skillful opponent that know why and how to play aggressively), while Sallies... Sallies just keep on keepin on bein' strong to right the wrong.

This ^^^

Salamanders get an insane force multiplier.

The only mitigating thing is that re-rolls are already provided by characters, but still. People are seriously not mathing out the advantage of this.

Its hard to math out simply because most SM arimes have access to re-rolls in some way shape or form...usually with their more important units. Then you also have to consider some redundancy in any characters you take and flamers on top of that. Its not like Iron Hands where you get the 6 up army wide, no other core SM chapter has access to that ability. Salamanders ability is great, however most armies can get some re-rolls for whole units by investing in some characters.....Salamanders cannot simply buy -1 to hit, +1 to shooting against units in cover or 6 ignore a wound etc.....so if you are going to do the math that needs to be considered some how. Also characters so far appear to not be a tax, they seem well priced and act as damage multipliers so again math has to consider that too.

**Malifice**

argonak wrote:
I think the Ravenguard tactic might work out very well for an assault army setup, like the Carcharadons would want, rather than using it purely as a defense for long range shooting.

You have three big set ups:

1) Rifle dread/ scout snipers/ devestator gun line. Park them as far back as you can (preferably in cover, and blocking D/S) and let rip.
2) Alpha strike D/S via the RG strategem to drop things like Assault Centurions wth Hurricane bolters, plasma veterans, hellblasters and other nasty things in rapid fire range (this could be very nasty)
3) A combination of the two (suck your opponent up the board, drop assaulters into his rear echelon).

**Freman Bloodglaive**

Although, as in the previous edition, the Black Templars Chapter tactic isn't fantastic, they also have access to the Crusader squad, which is one of the most efficient tactical squad equivalents in the game, being able to pack a heavy, a special, and a combi, into a five man squad. Said Crusader squad can also be made into a big melee mob which would get some benefit from the Chapter Tactic.

Even though Black Templars don't get Librarians, they can still take psyker Inquisitors with the [Imperium] keyword and remain battle-forged.

**Dionysodorus**

argonak wrote:
I think the Ravenguard tactic might work out very well for an assault army setup, like the Carcharadons would want, rather than using it purely as a defense for long range shooting.

Yeah, I think there's a lot to this. Too many things already want to be within 12" of a Marine gunline. You maximize the value of the Raven Guard tactic by taking stuff that people don't want to get within 12" of.

**Traditio**

Ravenguard OP. Please nerf.

**Selym**

Traditio wrote:
Ravenguard OP. Please nerf.

We have thoroughly established this. To reference your other postings, the lack of perfection in rules does not preclude improvement by revision, nor does it prove that the rules or company are irredeemably bad.

**Traditio**

Selym wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Ravenguard OP. Please nerf.
We have thoroughly established this. To reference your other postings, the lack of perfection in rules does not preclude improvement by revision, nor does it prove that the rules or company are irredeemably bad.

They've had over 30 years.

They still haven't satisfied consumer demands for a "balanced" ruleset.

Likely by design.

Feth GW.

**Selym**

Traditio wrote:
Selym wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Ravenguard OP. Please nerf.
We have thoroughly established this. To reference your other postings, the lack of perfection in rules does not preclude improvement by revision, nor does it prove that the rules or company are irredeemably bad.

They've had over 30 years.

They still haven't satisfied consumer demands for a "balanced" ruleset.

Likely by design.

Feth GW.

Balance =/= fun. Chess is balanced and boring as feth. And 8e is the closest we've been so far, and we're getting closer.

They have had a change of authorbase and CEO. Changes are happening. Some of which I like, some of which I don't. But nobody can have everything they want, so you've got to learn to take the highs with the lows.

**Traditio**

They've had 30 years, Selym.

Ponder that.