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 fallinq wrote:
GW really needs to hire a linguist to help out with their fluff. The stuff on this thread just cemented what already felt wrong to me.

Honestly I can't stand a lot of the new terms. "Astra Militarum"? Why isn't it an Adepta? Literally every other other armed wing of the Imperium is an Adepta.

I also think the "we don't care much about dates" stuff might be a reflection of how the Eldars' much longer lifespans have shaped their outlook differently than humans.

The gods of copyright are more important to appease than the gods of good sense.

Part of the problem is that the timing of the fall was retconned. Originally it happened long ago, before the dark age of technology. Then GW retconned it so that it happened at the end of the dark age of technology causing the warp storms of the age of strife. Slannesh's birth then broke these storms. I remember when the new timeline was first published in white dwarf, it caused a lot of arguments in my gaming club at the time. I think this was around the launch of a new edition, but can't remember which.

This newer version makes much less sense. The biggest issue is how did the humans develop a galaxy spanning empire during the dark age of technology if the elder empire was at the height of it's powers. Were they just so busy with the orgies and drugs that they didn't notice the up starts taking over?

I also always assumed eldar were very long lived, and wasn't surprised by eldrad turning up during the HH. But I don't know where that came from so it could just be head cannon. I'll have to dig out the 2nd edition codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ynneadwraith, I totally remember that episode of star trek. It is the best example of how hard first contact with aliens would be. For instance I could hold up a spoon and say spoon. Am I naming the item, or suggesting an action ( like we eat ) or making a threat ( I'll hit you with this) or telling you what color it is?

Shaka, when the walls fell in.

 fallinq wrote:
GW really needs to hire a linguist to help out with their fluff. The stuff on this thread just cemented what already felt wrong to me.

Honestly I can't stand a lot of the new terms. "Astra Militarum"? Why isn't it an Adepta? Literally every other other armed wing of the Imperium is an Adepta.

I also think the "we don't care much about dates" stuff might be a reflection of how the Eldars' much longer lifespans have shaped their outlook differently than humans.

They're already an Adepta - Administratum. Your basic Cadian Guardsman is a low ranking bureaucrat of the Departmento Munitorium with a lasgun, shovel and distinct lack of appreciation for the real work that actually goes into maintaining a galactic empire.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
My guess at Cegorarch's plan is more akin to the Greek Myth of Zues and Chronos. Chronos ate all the Olympians bar Zues (who was whisked away disguised as a rock...greek mythology for you) for fear they would overthrow him, Zues grew up, defeated Chronos and miraculously his fellow Olympians survived inside Chronos, growing up themselves and where freed.

Now I'm not suggesting Ynnead will chop open Slaanesh and pull Asurmen from inside her like Granny from the Big Bad Wolf, but the idea that Ynnead, Goddess of the Dead, will have power to animate the God-Sparks inside Slaanesh's gullet into revolting from the inside? That seems plausible.

Greek gods were immortal so they couldn't die (same reason Zeus couldn't kill Chronos or the other Titans as far as I know).

If the Eldar Gods were formed similarly to the Ruinous Powers (from various emotions etc) it's entirely possible the Eldar Gods could still be 'alive' just without power over their 'domain'. Ynnead managing to distract Slaanesh enough for them to claim it back seems plausible? I don't think I'm describing it well.

Tamereth wrote:I also always assumed eldar were very long lived, and wasn't surprised by eldrad turning up during the HH. But I don't know where that came from so it could just be head cannon. I'll have to dig out the 2nd edition codex.

I think Eldar used to be described as having a lifespan of about 1,000 years. Eldar seers in particular tended to eventually turn into crystal. There was an Eldar Ranger being interrogated who said that Eldrad had tried to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery but he was likely being tortured and rather pissed off at his captors so it would've been easy to say he was making stuff up. Just felt like they were too lazy to develop a new Eldar character for the role.

Additionally, the Eldar in Fulgrim were functionally identical to the 40k Eldar. 200 years after their society is destroyed and they've already developed exactly how their society will stay for the next 10,000 years. Again, seems lazy.

 Tamereth wrote:
Part of the problem is that the timing of the fall was retconned. Originally it happened long ago, before the dark age of technology. Then GW retconned it so that it happened at the end of the dark age of technology causing the warp storms of the age of strife. Slannesh's birth then broke these storms. I remember when the new timeline was first published in white dwarf, it caused a lot of arguments in my gaming club at the time. I think this was around the launch of a new edition, but can't remember which.

This newer version makes much less sense. The biggest issue is how did the humans develop a galaxy spanning empire during the dark age of technology if the elder empire was at the height of it's powers. Were they just so busy with the orgies and drugs that they didn't notice the up starts taking over?

I also always assumed eldar were very long lived, and wasn't surprised by eldrad turning up during the HH. But I don't know where that came from so it could just be head cannon. I'll have to dig out the 2nd edition codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ynneadwraith, I totally remember that episode of star trek. It is the best example of how hard first contact with aliens would be. For instance I could hold up a spoon and say spoon. Am I naming the item, or suggesting an action ( like we eat ) or making a threat ( I'll hit you with this) or telling you what color it is?

Shaka, when the walls fell in.

Good man perfect description of how hard first contact would be.

The way I see the Eldar Empire and DAoT mankind's empire being at the same time is that mankind sort of thought that they were big fish (and relatively, they were), but they weren't the dominant power in the galaxy. Big empire yes. Galactic, no. It also adds a neat little juxtaposition to the Imperium now. The Imperium might be a dogmatic, decrepit, wretched hulk of an empire with humanity living in the worst conditions it has since the Age of Strife. However, its empire is technically 'greater'. The Imperium is, paradoxically, mankind's highest achievement.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
My guess at Cegorarch's plan is more akin to the Greek Myth of Zues and Chronos. Chronos ate all the Olympians bar Zues (who was whisked away disguised as a rock...greek mythology for you) for fear they would overthrow him, Zues grew up, defeated Chronos and miraculously his fellow Olympians survived inside Chronos, growing up themselves and where freed.

Now I'm not suggesting Ynnead will chop open Slaanesh and pull Asurmen from inside her like Granny from the Big Bad Wolf, but the idea that Ynnead, Goddess of the Dead, will have power to animate the God-Sparks inside Slaanesh's gullet into revolting from the inside? That seems plausible.

Greek gods were immortal so they couldn't die (same reason Zeus couldn't kill Chronos or the other Titans as far as I know).

If the Eldar Gods were formed similarly to the Ruinous Powers (from various emotions etc) it's entirely possible the Eldar Gods could still be 'alive' just without power over their 'domain'. Ynnead managing to distract Slaanesh enough for them to claim it back seems plausible? I don't think I'm describing it well.

I get what you mean, but I really, really hope it doesn't happen. It already feels too noblebright as it is without the Eldar getting their Gods back. The idea that 40k's mirror of the traditional elven pantheon were ragef*cked to death is a rather cool inversion of your typical fantasy world.

Having them come back to life seems cheap.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Tamereth wrote:I also always assumed eldar were very long lived, and wasn't surprised by eldrad turning up during the HH. But I don't know where that came from so it could just be head cannon. I'll have to dig out the 2nd edition codex.

I think Eldar used to be described as having a lifespan of about 1,000 years. Eldar seers in particular tended to eventually turn into crystal. There was an Eldar Ranger being interrogated who said that Eldrad had tried to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery but he was likely being tortured and rather pissed off at his captors so it would've been easy to say he was making stuff up. Just felt like they were too lazy to develop a new Eldar character for the role.

Additionally, the Eldar in Fulgrim were functionally identical to the 40k Eldar. 200 years after their society is destroyed and they've already developed exactly how their society will stay for the next 10,000 years. Again, seems lazy.

This. It's lazy and betrays a lack of research into Eldar fluff. Or research but a lack of caring about exploring it further. Just seems massively unrealistic, and that's in a universe where I'm perfectly happy to suspend my disbelief for cockney war-fungus so it must be egregious.

I need to dig out the book, but I swear the quote from the ranger is in the same book as the 'never trust what the Eldar say' quote everyone uses...

 fallinq wrote:
GW really needs to hire a linguist to help out with their fluff. The stuff on this thread just cemented what already felt wrong to me.

Honestly I can't stand a lot of the new terms. "Astra Militarum"? Why isn't it an Adepta? Literally every other other armed wing of the Imperium is an Adepta.

The full title would be 'Adeptus Astra Militarum'. You know, like the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. They just keep it short for ease of use. There was definitely already precedent for naming an Imperial organisation along those lines.

Doesn't mean it doesn't also sound a bit weird weird, but hey ho. It only starts sounding really daft when you get to the whole 'Tempestus Scions' rubbish.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

The biggest issue is how did the humans develop a galaxy spanning empire during the dark age of technology if the elder empire was at the height of it's powers. Were they just so busy with the orgies and drugs that they didn't notice the up starts taking over?

Well, if something _informally_ called 'Empire' it's not always formally so. It could be closer to confederation, with conjoined cultures, trade and lot of defense pacts - but very different policies. In RW terms - UK and France (commonly seen as part of 'West' if not 'Pax Americana') don't seem to be really interested in attacking DPRK.
Also during DaoT humans rose not that behind eldar on power curve - see Mechanicum books, things described there as humanity's lost capabilities from DAoT is something 'currently' only OLDCRONS could do.
Another factor - Eldar empire was connected via Webway and sub-Cs while humans used Warp travel. So - empires could be overlapping on galaxy map but absurdly distant logistically, with early humans soon knowing better than approaching uninvated any eldar-claimed systems. With 'relatively low' quantity of eldar central worlds - iirc around 10000 - there was still a lot of vacant real estate anyway.

The old Eldar Empire was described as being utterly secure from outside threats, which is what gave the Eldar the freedom to turn inwards and fall to their own depravity. The Eldar used the webway even then, so they would have had their domains, but they need not have been a contiguous swathe of worlds that are somewhat close in realspace terms.

The galaxy is immense, and just as there are alien empires even within the territory claimed by the Imperium, so too could the Eldar Empire and the Dark Age of Technology humans have co-existed simply due to the sheer size of the galaxy. The Eldar were busy pursuing their own pleasures, while humans spread across the galaxy. The whole theme of the Eldar is that they were secure from the outside but like the Republic of Star Wars, fell to internal problems. Any human attempts to trespass on Eldar territory were probably met with overwhelming Eldar force, so humans probably learnt to leave those areas alone after some sharp defeats, and for their part the Eldar were content to sink deeper into their own decadence. This lack of will to fight further probably became apparent quickly to the humans so they learned that as long as they steered clear of the Eldar domains, they could do whatever they wanted with the rest of the galaxy.

 Tamereth wrote:
Also ynneadwraith, I totally remember that episode of star trek. It is the best example of how hard first contact with aliens would be. For instance I could hold up a spoon and say spoon. Am I naming the item, or suggesting an action ( like we eat ) or making a threat ( I'll hit you with this) or telling you what color it is?

Shaka, when the walls fell in.

Totally stolen by TNG's writers from Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, btw.

Re. Eldrad's age, the impression I got from his original write-up in 2nd Ed was that Farseers have unusually prolonged lives, even by Eldar standards (but eventually turn into crystal statues, and all that).