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Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm pretty sure Azrael is far more of a problem than Guilliman.

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. If it's not, it's pretty ridiculous with things like brims, conscripts, and Magnus running around.

RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm pretty sure Azrael is far more of a problem than Guilliman.

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. If it's not, it's pretty ridiculous with things like brims, conscripts, and Magnus running around.

RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.

Except that "failing it a few times" leaves him with 5 or 6 wounds left... hell, he could fail it a 'few times' twice over and be fine.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy.

The issue is that he's also the best buffbot in the game.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.

Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.

That might be bearable if you weren't also banned from shooting him. Because apparently the most elite infantry in the galaxy are unable to distinguish between a guardsman and someone the size of a dreadnought.

GW might as well have just given him an 'immunity to everything shield'.

I'm not saying it's still not difficult to take him down

 vipoid wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy.

The issue is that he's also the best buffbot in the game.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.

Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.

That might be bearable if you weren't also banned from shooting him. Because apparently the most elite infantry in the galaxy are unable to distinguish between a guardsman and someone the size of a dreadnought.

GW might as well have just given him an 'immunity to everything shield'.

This guy gets my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I'm not saying it's still not difficult to take him down

Then what was the point of your post?

You're right, we should just increase his points to 700 so that no one will use him. Primarch or not, he should be easy to paste across the battlefield.

As an elite army, Space Marines don't have the models to screen RG forever, and with all the lascannons, flyers, Knights and melta running around these days, he's far from invincible. Smite hurts him too.

Go check Tabletop Tactics's newest video, RG really doesn't last too long being shot at.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:

And I think Saint Celestine as much as I love and use her, should be up like 10-15% in cost.

Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather St. Celestine was just toned down a bit, rather than made excessively expensive. e.g. drop her strength by a point or two, drop her attacks to 5, knock off a wound or two, make Healing Tears require an Act of Faith. Any of those, really.

Is other option, but being a Livint Saint that can literally destroy Greater Demons just with his presence... he deserves to be a BEAST. But she should be cost appropiately. She is basically a Greater Demon of the Emperor.

 Galas wrote:

Is other option, but being a Livint Saint that can literally destroy Greater Demons just with his presence... he deserves to be a BEAST.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of that sort of stuff. Let's leave aside for now that virtually everything is a beast in the fluff.

The thing with making Living Saints that ridiculously strong is that it removes any tension and also any concept of heroism. The latter in particular is something GW seem completely unable to grasp. In order to be heroic, a character has to be fighting against great odds. There is nothing heroic about a Mary Sue killing everything in her path because the writers made her stupidly overpowered.

 Galas wrote:
But she should be cost appropiately. She is basically a Greater Demon of the Emperor.

But surely the entire point of Living Saints is that they are normal humans or sisters who have ascended to angelhood? Hence, by elevating them to such ludicrous heights, you remove the entire point of them. They might as well just pop into existence from the Universe of Plot Contrivances.

I mean, Living Saints are already dangerously close to being Mary Sues, surely it would be better if they were brought down a peg, rather than just becoming the epitomy of such?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
You're right, we should just increase his points to 700 so that no one will use him. Primarch or not, he should be easy to paste across the battlefield.

As an elite army, Space Marines don't have the models to screen RG forever, and with all the lascannons, flyers, Knights and melta running around these days, he's far from invincible. Smite hurts him too.

Go check Tabletop Tactics's newest video, RG really doesn't last too long being shot at.

He doesn't have to last long. If you're building around keeping him safe, you can put 50 conscripts and a commissar for 180 points between your army and his and you get to go feth yourself as far as ever killing him in a reasonable game while also defending yourself from another unit. Those conscripts could be lined up 48" in front of him and you still can't shoot him.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Is other option, but being a Livint Saint that can literally destroy Greater Demons just with his presence... he deserves to be a BEAST.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of that sort of stuff. Let's leave aside for now that virtually everything is a beast in the fluff.

The thing with making Living Saints that ridiculously strong is that it removes any tension and also any concept of heroism. The latter in particular is something GW seem completely unable to grasp. In order to be heroic, a character has to be fighting against great odds. There is nothing heroic about a Mary Sue killing everything in her path because the writers made her stupidly overpowered.

 Galas wrote:
But she should be cost appropiately. She is basically a Greater Demon of the Emperor.

But surely the entire point of Living Saints is that they are normal humans or sisters who have ascended to angelhood? Hence, by elevating them to such ludicrous heights, you remove the entire point of them. They might as well just pop into existence from the Universe of Plot Contrivances.

I mean, Living Saints are already dangerously close to being Mary Sues, surely it would be better if they were brought down a peg, rather than just becoming the epitomy of such?

I understand what you are saying, but personally I don't mind, after years and years of the bad guys being a bunch of Mary Sues destroying everything (Until they reach a bigger Mary Sue) for the """"""""good""""""" guys to have something to compete.
I can agree that Living Saint's shouldnt be "I appear, we win, wohoooo!" but I don't think is making them weaker how they should make them better characters. A Living Saint represents the strugle of a martyr that has suffer a great loss or pain for others and his faith in the emperor is untouchable. Once they become actual Living Saints, they are no more than an avatar of the Emperor's Wrath.
To me they aren't actually characters once they do the final step to become Living Saint's. The part of them that is interesting is HOW they become Living Saints.
Thats why I didn't like how in Gathering Storm, Celestine actually speaks with Greyfax and other people like she is a normal woman. She should be basically a Force of Nature.

9 wounds isn't hard to take down. He's, what, maybe 40 points a wound already? He would also be likely taking them on the 3++.

If he were costed anymore I'd never consider him, and I don't even consider him in the first place.

 Galas wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but personally I don't mind, after years and years of the bad guys being a bunch of Mary Sues destroying everything (Until they reach a bigger Mary Sue) for the """"""""good""""""" guys to have something to compete.

Granted, but I'd rather see things actually improve, rather than them just switching which side the Mary Sues are on.

 Galas wrote:

I can agree that Living Saint's shouldnt be "I appear, we win, wohoooo!" but I don't think is making them weaker how they should make them better characters.

Out of interest, what are you basing their strength on? I mean, in past editions they never had better than S5. I don't think that would be unreasonable in 8th. Nor would losing a wound and/or attack.

Here's the thing, I think they should be good in combat - I just think their current profile is a bit much and too far beyond the infantry they are supposed to have risen from.

I get where you're coming from though, so what about this as a possible compromise: What if we get a 'generic' Living Saint entry which is a bit weaker (S5-6, 5-6 wounds, 5 Atttacks, no bodyguards) but can perhaps be customisable to some degree? We could then have St. Celestine as a more expensive and powerful Living Saint, who also has access to her two bodyguards.

Does that sound reasonable?

Yes, I'll love to have a customizable generic Sororitas Living Saint and Celestine as the "special character" version of that generic character.

But this is offtopic! Sorry for derrailing the thread!

While I'd be okay if RG got a points increase, you don't kill him you kill his army. RG can only fight big stuff, he doesn't deal with chaff and if you strip his army away you make his buffs worthless. Marines are super expensive in 8th, they're very elite. Even with Cover they aren't that hard to shift with how AP works now. I've just been killing the army around him and winning on Missions.

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
While I'd be okay if RG got a points increase, you don't kill him you kill his army. RG can only fight big stuff, he doesn't deal with chaff and if you strip his army away you make his buffs worthless. Marines are super expensive in 8th, they're very elite. Even with Cover they aren't that hard to shift with how AP works now. I've just been killing the army around him and winning on Missions.

This. If he's rerolling lascannon and other such shots against you, kill the guns. Rg's auras mean jackall when he's not surrounded by dudes using them, and he doesn't upgrade their durability at all. After they're dead you can pepper him all day, throw countless chaff at him, steal an objective with two dudes...

Play against his weakness not his strength.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Looking at a similar "build" using my Dark Angels..

Azrael 180pts
Apothecary 55pts
Primaris Lieutenant 70pts

305pts, 55pts less than Gully (no upgrades on the Lieu)

4+ invuln save for them instead of 3+
1 command point vs 3
S and T 4 vs 6
Guns don't dish out anywhere near the same damage
Sword of secrets nowhere near as good as emperors sword
add one to charges for units within 12" for gully.
Reroll all wounds, not just of 1. That is huge....

Sorry, it's not close, not at all.

Why did you take a garbage apothecary? Prim lieutenant I think is only rerolling wounds in CC. Basically remove both of those. Just take Azreal and a bunch of las cannon devs. Your firepower will be almost as good because you have 4 additional las cannons in your aura and you will be much harder to kill. Also - Azreal fills and HQ requirement - Gulli is a lord of war. So he must also take antoher HQ to run a real army. Since guillis auras are so good - all the other aruas are wasted - so basically your HQ is a tax at this point.

You really missed the point. I was trying to build a set of characters that had similar abilities to gulliman and price them out.
And, no, there is no tax. Spend 85pts to get Greyfax to deny 2 psychic powers a turn. Plenty of HQs that don't replicate gulliman abilities

Malifice wrote:

For around the same price as Rowboat I can field:

1) Pedro Kantor
2) An Lt with the Fist of Vengance
3) An Ancient
4) An Apothecary

The Apothecary can stand Pedro back up, and heals 1d3 wounds a turn on a 4+. Pedro grants 6" re-rolls to hit and +1A and immunity to morale. The Lt grants re-rolls to W of 1. The Ancient lets them swing on the way down on a 4+ (before being resurected by the Apothecary).

Pedro and the Lt alone dish out 10 x S8 attacks on the charge (re-roll 1s to wound, re-roll misses) dealing 3 wounds a hit from the Lt and 1d3 with Pedro.

Sounds about even.

What? Apothecary doesn't stand Pedro up

Umbros wrote:

GW really want feedback on balance and usability issues. Why not relay the feedback to them, giving specific examples from games you have played?

Do you know where to send feedback? I had a look on the website but I couldn't find anything obvious.

I don't want to bash but I certainly have some constructive feedback after my early games.

Customer Service email is where I sent my constructive feedback about the Tau.

 Talamare wrote:

Malifice wrote:

For around the same price as Rowboat I can field:

1) Pedro Kantor
2) An Lt with the Fist of Vengance
3) An Ancient
4) An Apothecary

The Apothecary can stand Pedro back up, and heals 1d3 wounds a turn on a 4+. Pedro grants 6" re-rolls to hit and +1A and immunity to morale. The Lt grants re-rolls to W of 1. The Ancient lets them swing on the way down on a 4+ (before being resurected by the Apothecary).

Pedro and the Lt alone dish out 10 x S8 attacks on the charge (re-roll 1s to wound, re-roll misses) dealing 3 wounds a hit from the Lt and 1d3 with Pedro.

Sounds about even.

What? Apothecary doesn't stand Pedro up

Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?

How exactly are you targeting his unit when he's dead?

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?

How exactly are you targeting his unit when he's dead?

Hmm, that should probably get asked for an FAQ. Best not let Pedro ever get to that point, then.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?

How exactly are you targeting his unit when he's dead?

Hmm, that should probably get asked for an FAQ. Best not let Pedro ever get to that point, then.

I'd always assumed that you needed at least one model in the unit to still be alive, in order to target it with the apocathery, but I could be wrong.

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?

How exactly are you targeting his unit when he's dead?

Hmm, that should probably get asked for an FAQ. Best not let Pedro ever get to that point, then.

I'd always assumed that you needed at least one model in the unit to still be alive, in order to target it with the apocathery, but I could be wrong.

The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm pretty sure Azrael is far more of a problem than Guilliman.

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. If it's not, it's pretty ridiculous with things like brims, conscripts, and Magnus running around.

RG is a beatstick who excels in destroying vehicles and monstrous creatures...exactly what he should be good at, considering he's a primarch and one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Most things reduce armor saves, so he's essentially got a +3 armor save - not exactly difficult to fail a few times.

It is fine to be great so long as you pay the points.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.

If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.

Girlyman spread some good bufs but is ultimately pretty fragile.

 Karhedron wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.

If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.

Then it would be best not to let Pedro get to that point, huh? In my case, he gets some Honour Guard to intercept wounds. Healing the Honour Guard is also a good move too.

Anyway, Guilliman remaining his current point level means that stuff like Knights, WK, and Riptides are likely going to be brought down in price. Potentially, at least. It is pretty dumb that they kept his wounds down just to make him need to be sniped in order to be shot.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.

If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.

Then it would be best not to let Pedro get to that point, huh? In my case, he gets some Honour Guard to intercept wounds. Healing the Honour Guard is also a good move too.

Anyway, Guilliman remaining his current point level means that stuff like Knights, WK, and Riptides are likely going to be brought down in price. Potentially, at least. It is pretty dumb that they kept his wounds down just to make him need to be sniped in order to be shot.

If they didn't reduce his wounds to 9, he would be shot off the board turn 1 in every game. Killing the army around him, as already mentioned, is the best way to go.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.

If a character is dead there is no unit for the apothecary to target so he cannot be resurrected.

Then it would be best not to let Pedro get to that point, huh? In my case, he gets some Honour Guard to intercept wounds. Healing the Honour Guard is also a good move too.

Anyway, Guilliman remaining his current point level means that stuff like Knights, WK, and Riptides are likely going to be brought down in price. Potentially, at least. It is pretty dumb that they kept his wounds down just to make him need to be sniped in order to be shot.

If they didn't reduce his wounds to 9, he would be shot off the board turn 1 in every game. Killing the army around him, as already mentioned, is the best way to go.

Pretty much. And honestly, he isn't that great on his own anyway. If I ever gave him in a blob, it will be Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship time. Let's see what your blob can do against a ton of AP-2, Wounding on 3s, rerolling to hit and Rerolls of 1 to wound, Mr. Girlyman.