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RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.

Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.

Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.

But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.

Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.

.

......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?

seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.

a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.

BrianDavion wrote:

Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.

.

......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?

seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.

a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.

((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3.5) = 24.8 Lascannon Shots


or using V.Dread Autocannon
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 2) = 34.83 Autocannon Shots

fe40k wrote:
RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.

Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.

Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.

But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.

Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?

And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.

Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.

Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.

But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.

Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?

And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.

Yes, the only factions are Chaos and Ultramarines.

I look forward to seeing the 360 point 2+/3++ Imperial Guard commander with 9 wounds.

From what I can see, IG don't need the help. And if IG or any other IOM force need a primarch, they'll have RG and every other loyalist one in the future to choose from.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.

Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.

Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.

But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.

Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?

And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.

Yes, the only factions are Chaos and Ultramarines.

I look forward to seeing the 360 point 2+/3++ Imperial Guard commander with 9 wounds.

Different factions have different types of units, whoda thunk it. Any discussion about Guilliman's balance aside Chaos/Space Marines are definitely both "real big dudes with real big guns" factions, of course they're going to have the biggest dudes where Imperial Guard instead has the most dudes.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The rule says that if the unit contains no wounded models or if one or more models has been slain... But you raise an interesting question, can the Apothecary target that unit in the first place.

It's not interesting. It's pining for an advantage.

No, you can't target him if he's dead because, as a character, he's the only model in his unit. You could use the apothicary to heal him while he's alive, but that's it.

If you can bring a character back from the dead with an apothicary, then Necrons should get to make RP rolls on models in units you've completely blown off the table.

It's quite obvious how apothicaries are supposed to work.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
While I'd be okay if RG got a points increase, you don't kill him you kill his army. RG can only fight big stuff, he doesn't deal with chaff and if you strip his army away you make his buffs worthless. Marines are super expensive in 8th, they're very elite. Even with Cover they aren't that hard to shift with how AP works now. I've just been killing the army around him and winning on Missions.

This. If he's rerolling lascannon and other such shots against you, kill the guns. Rg's auras mean jackall when he's not surrounded by dudes using them, and he doesn't upgrade their durability at all. After they're dead you can pepper him all day, throw countless chaff at him, steal an objective with two dudes...

Play against his weakness not his strength.

There are what... 5 objectives to capture most games?

Bobby's blob aint capturing them all, and he cant be everywhere at once.

Focus on VP and not on killing him. Put enough Dakka out there to weaken the blob, while you secure objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yes it does. Any slain model is resurrected on a 4+. How would that not work on Pedro?

How exactly are you targeting his unit when he's dead?

The ability expressly raises things from the dead.

If an ability can raise things from the dead, you can target dead things with it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
RG is clearly undercosted - rerolling to hits, to wounds, +3CP, and the whole host of other buffs he can bring; no one else can match it.

Which is the real issue - no other army has a "RG" equivelant - if every army could take RG, you bet they would. And even if they chose not to, at least they could have the option of using an equal powered character.

Insane survivability, insane army buffing power (double re-roll aura and 3CP), insane beatstick - he does everything, except pay an appropriate amount of points for it.

But then again, it's Space Marines we're talking about here - GW's golden children and cash cows.

Ugh, Chaos has Magnus?

And you realize more primarchs are coming, right? Mortarion will be here soon, likely with the Death Guard codex.

Yes, the only factions are Chaos and Ultramarines.

I look forward to seeing the 360 point 2+/3++ Imperial Guard commander with 9 wounds.

he exists, his name is Robute Gulliman, Lord Commander of the Imperium and Primarch of the Ultramarines. as a Guard player, NOTHING stops you from taking Gulliman (even after your codex comes out as it's detachment limited as Guilliman is a LOW who can be taken seperately) Ultramarines have a slightly better "buff bubble" under Gulliman, but the character is VERY MUCH advantagous for ANY IOM unit. given he can act as a "captain " for ALL IoM units within 12 inches, Gulliman is slightly better for UMs yeah but he can really stiffen a Imperial guard army too

BrianDavion wrote:

Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.

.

......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?

seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.

a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.

Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.

.

......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?

seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.

a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.

Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.

And, I've tried it. Granted, I killed him (twice obviously since he gets back up) with Iyanden (played as Ynnari) but there was a turn where he charged my wraithblades by himself (surrounding units failed to charge...it was silly for him to be out by himself). The unit charged rolled like a beast (wraith axes/shields, with Fortune on them....very unlikely rolls) and survived....they fell back. I then unloaded on Guilleman with 2 wave serpents, a unit of wraithguard with cannons, and a wraithlord with BL/AML and 2 catappults....while Gulliman had Doom on him.. So basically, 655 points of units. Did not get a single wound on him. I then had no choice but to charge him with Yriel and the wraithlord to try to tie him up. Tie him up? Bollocks. He put 19 wounds on the wraithlord with 5 attacks (slight overkill), and Yriel survived with his invuln save because only 1 attack was placed on him. Yriel then put 2 wounds on Gully. Either way, it takes an insane amount of firepower to drop him, and then what else are you killing?
So you focus on all units around him....great hope that those units haven't taken out your biggest threat with that reroll to hit and wound already.

Points too low....needs to be in mid 400s, I could maybe see 425 and feel OK about it.

Another vote for killing the army around him.

 bullyboy wrote:

Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.

For the same price as Ol' Rowboat you can buy TWO Lascannon Devastator squads and a Captain to let them re-roll 1s To Hit. They probably won't kill Girlyman in one turn, but a couple turns of shooting will paste him. At least until he gets his second wind, but it's unlikely he'ss come back in any shape to resist another round of shooting from them.

 bullyboy wrote:

And, I've tried it. Granted, I killed him (twice obviously since he gets back up) with Iyanden (played as Ynnari) but there was a turn where he charged my wraithblades by himself (surrounding units failed to charge...it was silly for him to be out by himself). The unit charged rolled like a beast (wraith axes/shields, with Fortune on them....very unlikely rolls) and survived....they fell back. I then unloaded on Guilleman with 2 wave serpents, a unit of wraithguard with cannons, and a wraithlord with BL/AML and 2 catappults....while Gulliman had Doom on him.. So basically, 655 points of units. Did not get a single wound on him. I then had no choice but to charge him with Yriel and the wraithlord to try to tie him up. Tie him up? Bollocks. He put 19 wounds on the wraithlord with 5 attacks (slight overkill), and Yriel survived with his invuln save because only 1 attack was placed on him. Yriel then put 2 wounds on Gully. Either way, it takes an insane amount of firepower to drop him, and then what else are you killing?
So you focus on all units around him....great hope that those units haven't taken out your biggest threat with tkhat reroll to hit and wound already.

Points too low....needs to be in mid 400s, I could maybe see 425 and feel OK about it.

Two things:

1. Why did you Fall Back with the Wraithblades? With the support of Yriel and the Wraithlord (you did but the Ghostglaive, right?) they could have done a lot more damage to Guilliman than with shooting, especially with psychic support.

2. Either your opponent rolled unbelievably well for his saving throws, or your Wraithguard couldn't hit then broad side of a barn. Either way, your experience described here isn't otherwise very likely.

It's also worth noting that, as per the latest FAQ, you cannot field that army as Ynnari.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.

For the same price as Ol' Rowboat you can buy TWO Lascannon Devastator squads and a Captain to let them re-roll 1s To Hit. They probably won't kill Girlyman in one turn, but a couple turns of shooting will paste him. At least until he gets his second wind, but it's unlikely he'ss come back in any shape to resist another round of shooting from them.

((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3.5) = 24.8 Lascannon Shots

That's 3 rounds of uninterrupted Lascannons, which won't happen since he is a character.

Yeah, pretty sure he can't be targeted unless he's the closest thing to your shooters. Which means if the player controlling him knows waht they're doing, the only time you'll be doing damage will be on his terms.

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Except that he doesn't just have to fail it "a few times" he has to fail it 9 times. And then he'll usually have to fail up to 6 more before finally being gracious enough to die.

.

......you're shooting Gulliman with anti-infantry guns because....... why?

seriously, the guys a 9 wound "monster" shoot him with your heavy guns. clean out the guys screening him, and then unload anti-tank guns at him.

a 4 Lascannon devestator squad'll make short work of him.

Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.

Not only that but on a 5+ the CP for the re-roll is reimbursed because of the Ultramarine Warlord Trait.

So, yeah...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?

Who would do that, come to the internet and tell lies..girlyman is powerful, but hardly broken/the most broken thing at the moment. ITT people who are bad at the game crying about it

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Oh right....keep throwing your dev lascannons into him, not sure how you hit him when he's not the closest, oh and then you have to get past that 3+ invuln.....which he has command points to reroll one failed anyway. Then you need to roll high on damage. But right, keep wasting shots at him, lol.

For the same price as Ol' Rowboat you can buy TWO Lascannon Devastator squads and a Captain to let them re-roll 1s To Hit. They probably won't kill Girlyman in one turn, but a couple turns of shooting will paste him. At least until he gets his second wind, but it's unlikely he'ss come back in any shape to resist another round of shooting from them.

 bullyboy wrote:

And, I've tried it. Granted, I killed him (twice obviously since he gets back up) with Iyanden (played as Ynnari) but there was a turn where he charged my wraithblades by himself (surrounding units failed to charge...it was silly for him to be out by himself). The unit charged rolled like a beast (wraith axes/shields, with Fortune on them....very unlikely rolls) and survived....they fell back. I then unloaded on Guilleman with 2 wave serpents, a unit of wraithguard with cannons, and a wraithlord with BL/AML and 2 catappults....while Gulliman had Doom on him.. So basically, 655 points of units. Did not get a single wound on him. I then had no choice but to charge him with Yriel and the wraithlord to try to tie him up. Tie him up? Bollocks. He put 19 wounds on the wraithlord with 5 attacks (slight overkill), and Yriel survived with his invuln save because only 1 attack was placed on him. Yriel then put 2 wounds on Gully. Either way, it takes an insane amount of firepower to drop him, and then what else are you killing?
So you focus on all units around him....great hope that those units haven't taken out your biggest threat with tkhat reroll to hit and wound already.

Points too low....needs to be in mid 400s, I could maybe see 425 and feel OK about it.

Two things:

1. Why did you Fall Back with the Wraithblades? With the support of Yriel and the Wraithlord (you did but the Ghostglaive, right?) they could have done a lot more damage to Guilliman than with shooting, especially with psychic support.

2. Either your opponent rolled unbelievably well for his saving throws, or your Wraithguard couldn't hit then broad side of a barn. Either way, your experience described here isn't otherwise very likely.

It's also worth noting that, as per the latest FAQ, you cannot field that army as Ynnari.

The game was before the Ynnari change and the addition of Yvraine changes it back to being legal.

As for the wraithguard....with 5 shots needing 3's to hit, 3's to wound (with rerolls for doom) and that invuln save, the probability of getting a wound through is not that high.

What I don't understand is, we are currently in a world where daemon players are paying full price for a blue horror that only begins to exist after you've already lost another model, and is summoned not where you want him, but where he died. We're also making them pay points for spawn that they might summon with one particular weapon....

And yet, despite all that, 200+ point characters are cool to resurrect themselves wholesale, for free, just because it's random and might fail.

This is the definition of an ability that will always feel bad. Either the characters will be super undercosted (you succeed the roll) or you fail the roll and it feels crappy for the person playing them (I saw a person with St Celestine roll and then reroll 1 for her resurrect, that was a bad time).

Why not slightly reduce the cost of both of them, and make a guaranteed resurrection an upgrade that you pay points/PLs for? Call it "armor of whatever failsafe system" for guilliman and "Vital mission" for celestine.

All these kinds of abilities should be upgrades with a lesser point cost than the full model, including split. It's bizarre that a blue horror you can start the game with and deploy where you want costs as much as one you only get when another guy dies later in the game and spawns at a fixed location, and it's also bizarre that RG supposedly has a 50% chance to be two RGs baked into his point cost. Or rather, that he doesn't, because GWs logic is presumably the same as the other SM fanboys saying "but he's a primarch, he should be awesome (and also able to hide like a coward behind his allies because that gives me more in game power) ((But also he should be undercosted because that gives me more in game power))"

Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...

Or just remove some of his boble rapping and mortal wound him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.

Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the most part He Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or in your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..

He is not 7th Tau broken..

And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army

And no matter All those tales about ohh he oneshotted a knight og gretchen are useless because that was more luck than anything.. i could also 1 shot a knight with a las-pred so is that now broken AS Well and should be more expencive.. nothing is unbeatable you just need some games, watch some bat-reps to find a Way to counter him

 ZombieDK wrote:
Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...

Or just Remote some of his boble rapping and mortal wounf him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.

Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the post part Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..

He is not 7th Tau broken..

And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army

3 * 5/6 (hits) * 1/6 (regular wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 2 (D3 wounds average) = .56 wounds
3 * 5/6(hits) * 1/6 (Deadshot wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 3.5 (Approximate average of 1D6) = .97 wounds from Deadshots

3 Vindicare assassins take approximately 6 turns to kill Robute Guilliman. On average. The first time. So please, enlighten us further on how easy it is to counter His Brokenness!

Could someone do the math on how hard Girlyman is to kill vs a Greater Daemon? (Noting that the latter don't bring an incredible buff, can't hide behind units and can't revive from the dead.)

the_scotsman wrote:

 ZombieDK wrote:
Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...

Or just Remote some of his boble rapping and mortal wounf him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.

Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the post part Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..

He is not 7th Tau broken..

And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army

3 * 5/6 (hits) * 1/6 (regular wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 2 (D3 wounds average) = .56 wounds
3 * 5/6(hits) * 1/6 (Deadshot wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 3.5 (Approximate average of 1D6) = .97 wounds from Deadshots

3 Vindicare assassins take approximately 6 turns to kill Robute Guilliman. On average. The first time. So please, enlighten us further on how easy it is to counter His Brokenness!

Your math is off, though not by much. When I feed Vindicares into this calculator:

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

I'm getting 1.12 wounds average before Deadshots (which should increase it).

Anyway, as I said earlier in the thread, the Primarch may justify a small bump but he's largely fine where he is. He's hard to kill and he crushes monsters in melee. Attack him with hordes or at range and he's not terribly frightening. The auras are what are super strong about him and why a small point buff may be justified.

I had mine get charged by a pack of 20 Purestrains. They cost 200 points (at the time, now 350) and wrecked his face. You can't just look at units in a void like so many on forums do.

I can't believe the fuss over him. How hard is it to kill the meqs around him? Just as easy as if he wasn't there and in fact - if they just took 3 devestator squads in his place - their firepower would be almost equal. The bonus with Guiliman is that you get a powerhouse melle unit to protect your gunline when things are getting dicey. Can't tell you how many time's the harlequins have beat my ultra competitive ultra marines list with guilliman. He really does not do well when he takes 5 fusion pistols right to the face - I assure you.

I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.

The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.

Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.

 3orangewhips wrote:
I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.

The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.

Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.

Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.

I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:
I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.

The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.

Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.

Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.

I mean this is a little unfair to guiliman. He shoots better, he is better in combat not by a small amount (+1 attack, Re-roll wounds is big, he is significantly more durable. He also has synergy with non-chapter units which is not insignificant.

now I'm not sure he needs adjusting yet, but he is worth his points compared to draigo.

Breng77 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:
I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.

The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.

Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.

Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.

I mean this is a little unfair to guiliman. He shoots better, he is better in combat not by a small amount (+1 attack, Re-roll wounds is big, he is significantly more durable. He also has synergy with non-chapter units which is not insignificant.

now I'm not sure he needs adjusting yet, but he is worth his points compared to draigo.

One thing to consider in the Draigo vs Bubba--Bubba needs a lib buddies to help with smites.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.

Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.

A GOD has LD9, the greatest Seer in existence has Ld9, warriors who have fought the greatest evil in existence for 10'000 years+ have Ld9. Being Primarchs is nothing to do with it. They have Ld10 because they're Space Marines.

I'm not the one being silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

Was Azrael nerfed in the codex? I hadn't heard such.

He went from giving the invul to anything he joined to DA only. Pretty big nerf.

I would argue that the Lion Helm has brought back my old 3rd ed tactic (when it did the same thing), a strong gunline with him in the middle, if i remember correctly i used to use

Dev sqaud 4 lascannon (so expensive)
2 mortis dreads,
2 tac sqauds with plasma cannons (used to be DA only in tac sqauds)

smattering of other things, but the point is, i can use this old tactic again and it seems stronger now, not tourney standard, but cool non the less