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Audustum wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ZombieDK wrote:
Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...

Or just Remote some of his boble rapping and mortal wounf him to death with smite... 360 pts is a Big Chunk of points.

Is he a powerhouse? Yes ofc. And he should be, he is a primarch. But he is not immortal and for the post part Will stand still to boost a gun Line.. so there Will be a ton of points in the backline and not that Much in the mid or your line.. så nibble away at the gun line and score some objectives..

He is not 7th Tau broken..

And you Also need to look at the whole army when you are takling points... the marines are expencive.. even more if you are running primaris.. his Price tag fits in with the Price tags for the rest of the army

3 * 5/6 (hits) * 1/6 (regular wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 2 (D3 wounds average) = .56 wounds
3 * 5/6(hits) * 1/6 (Deadshot wounds) * 4/6 (5+ armor save vs -3AP) * 3.5 (Approximate average of 1D6) = .97 wounds from Deadshots

3 Vindicare assassins take approximately 6 turns to kill Robute Guilliman. On average. The first time. So please, enlighten us further on how easy it is to counter His Brokenness!

Your math is off, though not by much. When I feed Vindicares into this calculator:

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

I'm getting 1.12 wounds average before Deadshots (which should increase it).

Anyway, as I said earlier in the thread, the Primarch may justify a small bump but he's largely fine where he is. He's hard to kill and he crushes monsters in melee. Attack him with hordes or at range and he's not terribly frightening. The auras are what are super strong about him and why a small point buff may be justified.

I had mine get charged by a pack of 20 Purestrains. They cost 200 points (at the time, now 350) and wrecked his face. You can't just look at units in a void like so many on forums do.

 ZombieDK wrote:
Take 3 vindicares assains and he is popped in 1-2 turns...

((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / ((1 * 5/6 * 1/6 * 2/3 * 2) + (1* 5/6 * 1/6 * 2/3 * 3.5)) = 25.33 Vindicare Shots, divide that by however many Vindicares/Turns you want

 3orangewhips wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:
I played in a local tournament last night. Brought Bubba G and some stuff, including 1 storm raven. I won 1 and lost 2.

The guys who beat me took apart my army while ignoring Bubba (in all fairness one dude had a TauNar which I managed to get down from his 70ish wounds to around 30ish [drones, man]). I won against the guy who tried to kill Bubba by DSing 12 suits in front of him. We had to quit on turn 2 (1:00 AM) but I had removed his drones and he was facing 6 las and 2 AC plus an undamaged raven. He would probably have lost, rolls being average.

Bubba G is essentially a glorified Draigo.

Right - compared to draigo (WHO CAN DEEP STRIKE) he is +120 points to gain reroll wounds aura. He's not a psyker...He is a little bit better in CC (both weapons do 3 flat damage) Guilliman just does d3 mortals on 6's - plus the reroll failed wounds and bonus str (likely a difference of +1 to wound). Sure guiliman has a 12 inch reroll 1's bubble but that matters very little. +1 to your advance/charge matters little - marines suck in melle (maybe not greyknights though). Draigo is also not a monster...he can be healed by an apoth - he can ride in transports.

I mean this is a little unfair to guiliman. He shoots better, he is better in combat not by a small amount (+1 attack, Re-roll wounds is big, he is significantly more durable. He also has synergy with non-chapter units which is not insignificant.

now I'm not sure he needs adjusting yet, but he is worth his points compared to draigo.

One thing to consider in the Draigo vs Bubba--Bubba needs a lib buddies to help with smites.

Not that much, as if he is not the closest it does nothing to him. That said with the exception of using him as part of a super heavy detachment, or adding him to Air wing, he will need an HQ to be taken anyway, so not really a big deal.

His big downsides are that he generally takes up a detachment, and requires a second HQ in many builds.

 vipoid wrote:
Could someone do the math on how hard Girlyman is to kill vs a Greater Daemon? (Noting that the latter don't bring an incredible buff, can't hide behind units and can't revive from the dead.)

CSM Daemon Prince (Not Khorne +1 Attack)
Sword
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (4 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3) = 5.80 Daemon Princes / Turns

+3 Claws
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (7 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 2) = 4.97 Daemon Princes / Turns

Axe
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3) = 7.25 Daemon Princes / Turns

Let me know what else

 3orangewhips wrote:
I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.

Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - this is relevent. Calgar has been reduced to 190 points per a french codex release pdf that can be found in the Codex rumors thread.

Calgar gives +2 command points. Has reroll all hits and can deep strike with his terminator armor. I'm pretty sure I'm taking him every game now. I might even sit Guilliman down with calgar at this price.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:
I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.

Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.

I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:
I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.

Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.

I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.

I was saying if he could deep strike like draigo he would be. I think his points are on the lower end of what I would expect them to be - 360-400 seems appropriate. He is ultra marines specific though so I think that justifies the lower cost. Can't just stick him into any imperial army and get these buffs.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:
I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.

Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.

I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.

I was saying if he could deep strike like draigo he would be. I think his points are on the lower end of what I would expect them to be - 360-400 seems appropriate. He is ultra marines specific though so I think that justifies the lower cost. Can't just stick him into any imperial army and get these buffs.

Should units be discounted because of that? Like, since you can't take a Chaos Lord in an Imperial Guard army, should he be cheaper than we believe to be reasonable because 'restrictive'?

Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.

Funny to read some of the counters....3 vindicaires (how many points?), and kill the rest of his army!!! Sure, but his support is killing you better due to reroll hits and wounds. There is still 1640pts to spend in that army which can be deadly when buffed by him.
The balance is off, especially with the new codex buffs.

Compare skarbrand to him.

I agree that mortal wounds is the best way to counter him...bypass the 3+ invuln, but smite will be tough unless the player positions poorly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My overall point is that I don't know of another model or unit of that points value that I have to plan so hard to counter. Heck, a 500+pt knight/wraithknight takes far less thought.

Audustum wrote:
Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.

Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:
I feel you Xeno--I think Draigo porting around under 2 ravens is better, but that's because those guns are pointed at me.

Driago can work with any strategy because he can be placed anywhere. Any strat involving Gurlyman has to be focused around walking up the board with him - to say this isn't ideal is an understatement. I will say - if Guilliman could deep strike - he'd be worth 500 points.

I'm not sure he's worth 500. I've seen 400, 425 bandied about; I'd say that's about right. I wouldn't think him Baneblade level (500-600), but I don't think he's Macharius level (355) either, to compare him to some other Imperial Lords of War.

I was saying if he could deep strike like draigo he would be. I think his points are on the lower end of what I would expect them to be - 360-400 seems appropriate. He is ultra marines specific though so I think that justifies the lower cost. Can't just stick him into any imperial army and get these buffs.

Should units be discounted because of that? Like, since you can't take a Chaos Lord in an Imperial Guard army, should he be cheaper than we believe to be reasonable because 'restrictive'?

lightly discounted - i think it's okay. Flexibility needs to be costed for is all I am saying. A more apt example would be like. Lets say a Korne lord offers specific Korne buffs and can't give nurgle units these buffs. I'm okay with all stats being the same - that the korne buff for korne units is better than a buff from a genreal character that could affect korn and nurgle units. Flexibility should ether cost more points or be weaker than specialized.

If you hit on 3s, wound on 4s, Bobby G gives about a 25% improvement in total wounds dealt. Let's use that as a baseline.

At 360 points, that would make him balanced (with JUST BUFFS) in an 1800 point list. 1440 times 1.25 is 1800. The issue is, he's more than just a buffmonster. He's also a CC nightmare, easily worth more than 100 points for the damage he can dish out (or just working as a charge deterrent), he's got decent shooting, and he gives an extra 3 CP.

Funnily enough, he's probably more balanced in smaller games, where he can't buff as much and it's easier to kill what's around him before focusing on him. The issue there is that in smaller games, you might not HAVE what it takes to kill him.

Also, is he an infantry model? Because if so, it takes...

Only around 19 Vindicare turns to kill him (maybe less, if you roll a lot of 6s to wound). But if he's not, then with T6, it takes around 35 Vindicare Turns, I think.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.

Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?

Depends on what synergies they have available. If the IG one can take orders and the Renegades one cannot, then yes it should be cheaper. If it had access to lots of ways to re-roll hits, then yes the Renegades one should be cheaper. It is one of the issues with having similar units across multiple factions.

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.

Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?

Depends on what synergies they have available. If the IG one can take orders and the Renegades one cannot, then yes it should be cheaper. If it had access to lots of ways to re-roll hits, then yes the Renegades one should be cheaper. It is one of the issues with having similar units across multiple factions.

IG orders don't work on vehicles, but character auras do. Conversely, so do the Character Auras from RG&H work on the RG&H baneblade, though they're different auras.

So you're saying a synergy should be priced into the unit receiving the synergy, not the unit providing?

Does that mean a unit taken without its synergy is overcosted?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.

Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?

You can still stick your choas baneblade in any choas army - it's not a restrictive keyword.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.

Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?

You can still stick your choas baneblade in any choas army - it's not a restrictive keyword.

Yes but the total number of chaos armies is less than the total number of Imperial armies, so it's still "more restrictive" than Imperium.

 Talamare wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Could someone do the math on how hard Girlyman is to kill vs a Greater Daemon? (Noting that the latter don't bring an incredible buff, can't hide behind units and can't revive from the dead.)

CSM Daemon Prince (Not Khorne +1 Attack)
Sword
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (4 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3) = 5.80 Daemon Princes / Turns

+3 Claws
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (7 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 2) = 4.97 Daemon Princes / Turns

Axe
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3) = 7.25 Daemon Princes / Turns

Let me know what else

Sorry, I meant in terms of how hard it is to kill Girlyman, compared to how hard it is to kill a Greater Daemon with the same weapon(s).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Due to the keyword system how available a model is definitely needs to be a consideration.

Really? So a a Renegades and Heretics Baneblade should be cheaper than an Imperial Guard Baneblade while being completely identical save having the Chaos Keyword instead of the Imperium Keyword?

You can still stick your choas baneblade in any choas army - it's not a restrictive keyword.

Yes but the total number of chaos armies is less than the total number of Imperial armies, so it's still "more restrictive" than Imperium.

Did you count? In any case - it's the least restrictive type. Choas keyword is equal to imperuim in terms of restrictiveness.

If Guilliman's re-roll auras only effected Tactical Marines, would he be more balanced?

Balanced meaning a strong pick but not over the top.

Not really. Imperium has a LOT MORE than Chaos.

Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If Guilliman's re-roll auras only effected Tactical Marines, would he be more balanced?

Balanced meaning a strong pick but not over the top.

Maybe if they only affected primaris marines you mean.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If Guilliman's re-roll auras only effected Tactical Marines, would he be more balanced?

That would definitely help, I think.


That said, I really don't like the all-or-nothing rules for characters at the moment. I can understand it for the infantry-sized ones, but having stuff like Girlyman, Daemon princes, CCBs and the like (models that are far beyond infantry-size) able to hide behind normal infantry just seems really silly.

I think it could be fixed by adding a requirement that closer targets can be ignored if their base size is two or more sizes smaller than the character in question (so, for example, you could hide Girlyman behind 40mm terminators but not behind 25mm infantry). Something along those lines, anyway.

Alternatively, give Girlyman and other large characters some extra wounds and make them fully targetable.

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you hit on 3s, wound on 4s, Bobby G gives about a 25% improvement in total wounds dealt. Let's use that as a baseline.

At 360 points, that would make him balanced (with JUST BUFFS) in an 1800 point list. 1440 times 1.25 is 1800. The issue is, he's more than just a buffmonster. He's also a CC nightmare, easily worth more than 100 points for the damage he can dish out (or just working as a charge deterrent), he's got decent shooting, and he gives an extra 3 CP.

Funnily enough, he's probably more balanced in smaller games, where he can't buff as much and it's easier to kill what's around him before focusing on him. The issue there is that in smaller games, you might not HAVE what it takes to kill him.

Also, is he an infantry model? Because if so, it takes...

Only around 19 Vindicare turns to kill him (maybe less, if you roll a lot of 6s to wound). But if he's not, then with T6, it takes around 35 Vindicare Turns, I think.

Your math is way off. Re-rolling hits on BS3+ is a 33% increase in total wounds dealt by itself. Re-rolling wounds on a 4+ to wound is a 50% increase by itself. Together that's doubling the total number of expected wounds.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not really. Imperium has a LOT MORE than Chaos.

Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.

it's apples to apples man. If one has 120 options compared to 109. They both have tons of options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you hit on 3s, wound on 4s, Bobby G gives about a 25% improvement in total wounds dealt. Let's use that as a baseline.

At 360 points, that would make him balanced (with JUST BUFFS) in an 1800 point list. 1440 times 1.25 is 1800. The issue is, he's more than just a buffmonster. He's also a CC nightmare, easily worth more than 100 points for the damage he can dish out (or just working as a charge deterrent), he's got decent shooting, and he gives an extra 3 CP.

Funnily enough, he's probably more balanced in smaller games, where he can't buff as much and it's easier to kill what's around him before focusing on him. The issue there is that in smaller games, you might not HAVE what it takes to kill him.

Also, is he an infantry model? Because if so, it takes...

Only around 19 Vindicare turns to kill him (maybe less, if you roll a lot of 6s to wound). But if he's not, then with T6, it takes around 35 Vindicare Turns, I think.

Your math is way off. Re-rolling hits on BS3+ is a 33% increase in total wounds dealt by itself. Re-rolling wounds on a 4+ to wound is a 50% increase by itself. Together that's doubling the total number of expected wounds.

3+ is 66% - 3+ reroll is 88%. Hes not that off.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not really. Imperium has a LOT MORE than Chaos.

Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.

it's apples to apples man. If one has 120 options compared to 109. They both have tons of options.

Yes, but one has objectively less than the other. Therefore, Chaos is more restrictive. Therefore, by the 'keywords should be included in unit point costs' argument, Chaos Baneblades should be cheaper than IG baneblades while having exactly the same on-tabletop capability.

36 shots, BS 3+, 4+ to wound.

Without rerolls:
24 hits
12 wounds

With rerolls:
24 hit to start, upped to 32 total
16 wound to start, up to 24 total

Holy cow, yeah, my math was CRAZY off. I think I forgot the reroll wounds in my calculations.

Seriously though, he's over 350 points. He's almost 20% of a 2000 Point list. What don't you want him to do? If you spent that much on a character they better have some good stuff going on.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not really. Imperium has a LOT MORE than Chaos.

Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.

it's apples to apples man. If one has 120 options compared to 109. They both have tons of options.

Yes, but one has objectively less than the other. Therefore, Chaos is more restrictive. Therefore, by the 'keywords should be included in unit point costs' argument, Chaos Baneblades should be cheaper than IG baneblades while having exactly the same on-tabletop capability.

No, that's not true. There are multiple ways to quantify restrictiveness. I could just as easily make an availability chart that says:

AVAILABLE TO X FACTIONS
0-9: -5 Points
10-15: 0 Points
16-20: +5 Points

Whether Imperium had 20 and Chaos had 16 would be irrelevant. They'd both get the same points application and thus cost the same amount. Nothing says you have to do a full point increase for every single faction; just that you need some way to account for accessibility.

 Talamare wrote:
((9 + (1/2 * 3.5)) / (5/6)) / (4 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3) = 7.25 Daemon Princes / Turns

I feel like something went a little wrong here. Did you change the AP on the Axe to -3 and include the -1WS when using the weapon? Using a calculator says it'll take 5 turns not 7.

Audustum wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not really. Imperium has a LOT MORE than Chaos.

Chaos is, I agree, the SECOND least constrictive, but it's definitely lacking some of the good Imperium options.

it's apples to apples man. If one has 120 options compared to 109. They both have tons of options.

Yes, but one has objectively less than the other. Therefore, Chaos is more restrictive. Therefore, by the 'keywords should be included in unit point costs' argument, Chaos Baneblades should be cheaper than IG baneblades while having exactly the same on-tabletop capability.

No, that's not true. There are multiple ways to quantify restrictiveness. I could just as easily make an availability chart that says:

AVAILABLE TO X FACTIONS
0-9: -5 Points
10-15: 0 Points
16-20: +5 Points

Whether Imperium had 20 and Chaos had 16 would be irrelevant. They'd both get the same points application and thus cost the same amount. Nothing says you have to do a full point increase for every single faction; just that you need some way to account for accessibility.

So... Guilliman should also be really expensive, being available to (and even having a buff that works on) all of IoM?