Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This has been the GW norm for over 20 years.

They know balance.

They also know balance doesn't sell models as much as busted does.

 auticus wrote:
This has been the GW norm for over 20 years.

They know balance.

They also know balance doesn't sell models as much as busted does.

Maybe, but I think if you looked through 40k history most special characters have been considerably overpriced.

They clearly didn't think people would put a parking lot around these special characters. That's the problem.

It should probably be that you get to pick one unit to have the buff. Maybe two at most.

If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Ix_Tab wrote:
Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?

As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.

Didn't know before I did the math


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field

Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

You cannot possibly be making this argument in good faith.

What tables are you playing on where sufficient artillery to kill 20-30 MEQs a turn can be hidden completely out of LoS -- if they're visible then why are the Devastators shooting Conscripts -- and a 50-man Conscript squad can get a cover save? Also you need about 24 Basilisks to expect to kill 30 MEQs in a turn, or only 20 if you're re-rolling 1s. That's assuming they're not in cover.

But yes, artillery tends to win games against long-range shooty armies if it can hide completely out of LoS. And missile launchers are not very good against infantry. Everyone knows this stuff already.

 Talamare wrote:

Ix_Tab wrote:
Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?

As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.

Didn't know before I did the math


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field

Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Tournament results are the only measure of balance which matters? I suppose if those tournaments were actually playing the rules in the book it would help but I would still advocate a mixed approach encompassing tournies, math, thinking about theoretical scenarios, casual play etc.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

You cannot possibly be making this argument in good faith.

What tables are you playing on where sufficient artillery to kill 20-30 MEQs a turn can be hidden completely out of LoS -- if they're visible then why are the Devastators shooting Conscripts -- and a 50-man Conscript squad can get a cover save? Also you need about 24 Basilisks to expect to kill 30 MEQs in a turn, or only 20 if you're re-rolling 1s. That's assuming they're not in cover.

But yes, artillery tends to win games against long-range shooty armies if it can hide completely out of LoS. And missile launchers are not very good against infantry. Everyone knows this stuff already.

It would be a combination of deep strike plasma - artillery - and whatever else they can muster. 20-30 is about what you can expect to lose a turn vs a competitive ig list. What tables do you play on where t4 3+ save is hard to kill?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Ix_Tab wrote:
Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?

As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.

Didn't know before I did the math


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field

Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

A table is 48" by 72"

If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"

Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It would be a combination of deep strike plasma - artillery - and whatever else they can muster. 20-30 is about what you can expect to lose a turn vs a competitive ig list. What tables do you play on where t4 3+ save is hard to kill?

Sure, plasma drop squads are obviously very overpowered. Everyone knows this too. A competitive Guard army crushes this Guilliman list because it has nothing to screen the Scions -- 6 squads appear and drop 20 Devastators by themselves. It has nothing to do with Conscripts or artillery or cover and I have no idea why you were bringing these up earlier, and it doesn't speak to whether Guilliman is overpowered. I mean, Guard can do this to most armies, and if you were really taking a Guilliman list you'd probably want some screening.

 Talamare wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Ix_Tab wrote:
Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?

As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.

Didn't know before I did the math


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field

Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

A table is 48" by 72"

If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"

Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.

Depends on deployment. You might not have access to that area - it might not be in your deployment zone - it might have a big impassable feature there. Simply stating that there are points on a board that 48" is short and not to assume the they will have range to everything based on deployment.

Tyel wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This has been the GW norm for over 20 years.

They know balance.

They also know balance doesn't sell models as much as busted does.

Maybe, but I think if you looked through 40k history most special characters have been considerably overpriced.

They clearly didn't think people would put a parking lot around these special characters. That's the problem.

It should probably be that you get to pick one unit to have the buff. Maybe two at most.

They had FAQs within a week fixing tons of broken problems with the game and even reducing point costs. If they chose not to fix Guilliman after all this time, that choice was intentional.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It would be a combination of deep strike plasma - artillery - and whatever else they can muster. 20-30 is about what you can expect to lose a turn vs a competitive ig list. What tables do you play on where t4 3+ save is hard to kill?

Sure, plasma drop squads are obviously very overpowered. Everyone knows this too. A competitive Guard army crushes this Guilliman list because it has nothing to screen the Scions -- 6 squads appear and drop 20 Devastators by themselves. It has nothing to do with Conscripts or artillery or cover and I have no idea why you were bringing these up earlier, and it doesn't speak to whether Guilliman is overpowered. I mean, Guard can do this to most armies, and if you were really taking a Guilliman list you'd probably want some screening.

This army we are talking about has no screening - it's 40 devs and guiliman. Every deep strike is on a priority target. I mean - this army isn't really good against anything that is considered good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This has been the GW norm for over 20 years.

They know balance.

They also know balance doesn't sell models as much as busted does.

Maybe, but I think if you looked through 40k history most special characters have been considerably overpriced.

They clearly didn't think people would put a parking lot around these special characters. That's the problem.

It should probably be that you get to pick one unit to have the buff. Maybe two at most.

They had FAQs within a week fixing tons of broken problems with the game and even reducing point costs. If they chose not to fix Guilliman after all this time, that choice was intentional.

Well - on that token they also chose not to reduce the cost of dire avengers - or increase the cost of conscript squads.

 Talamare wrote:


A table is 48" by 72"

If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"

Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.

Well, that math assumes the Devastators are in the dead center of the board. Which means they have already given up a turn with reduced BS shooting, possibly any shooting at all if they advanced to get there.

More likely, they are roughly 6" from an edge. If we assume they are still dead center of the 36" then they need roughly 55" range to shoot the corners. That is a 7" space that they would have to move to get into range for.

That particular spot of deployment isn't readily available for the majority of deployment types. Most of the time, the gap to hide in will be bigger.

Then again all that is based on one units range applying pressure. Usually, you are gonna see two which can really widen that threat bubble.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.

Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Ix_Tab wrote:
Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?

As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.

Didn't know before I did the math


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field

Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

A table is 48" by 72"

If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"

Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.

Depends on deployment. You might not have access to that area - it might not be in your deployment zone - it might have a big impassable feature there. Simply stating that there are points on a board that 48" is short and not to assume the they will have range to everything based on deployment.

Your retort is literally something you already quoted me on?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?

If he had no ability to fight, then sure.

But he also happens to be one of the strongest units in the game for that cost while being untargetable due to his 9 wounds, unlike beefcakes like the Wraithknight, Magnus, or Imperial Knights.

The buffing is kind of just the bonus that makes him not completely useless as he wades into close combat, laughing as bullets go every which way except in his direction. Once he reaches combat, goodbye everything you had there.

And while it's true GW hasn't nerfed conscripts yet, Guard haven't received their codex yet either. The Space Marines have and Guilliman remained the same price in it with no subsequent FAQ to fix that either.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.

Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?

What? I've already shown he basically doubles the efficiency of whatever is under him


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:


A table is 48" by 72"

If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"

Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.

Well, that math assumes the Devastators are in the dead center of the board. Which means they have already given up a turn with reduced BS shooting, possibly any shooting at all if they advanced to get there.

More likely, they are roughly 6" from an edge. If we assume they are still dead center of the 36" then they need roughly 55" range to shoot the corners. That is a 7" space that they would have to move to get into range for.

That particular spot of deployment isn't readily available for the majority of deployment types. Most of the time, the gap to hide in will be bigger.

Then again all that is based on one units range applying pressure. Usually, you are gonna see two which can really widen that threat bubble.

36.1" away at deployment
Upto 6" in each direction of Girly, Girly being 2"
72 - 2 - 12 = 58 / 2 = 29
C = 46.31" without moving

Considering Abaddon is 253 pts for a significantly inferior stat line, half the aura, worse weapons by far, and not nearly as tanky, I'd say the extra 107 pts are well worth their investment.

Meanwhile Guilliman sports a 3++ invuln, Feel no Death (4+), and still somehow gives you 3 extra command points for no apparent reason.

 Arkaine wrote:
Considering Abaddon is 253 pts for a significantly inferior stat line, half the aura, worse weapons by far, and not nearly as tanky, I'd say the extra 107 pts are well worth their investment.

Meanwhile Guilliman sports a 3++ invuln, Feel no Death (4+), and still somehow gives you 3 extra command points for no apparent reason.

He has no feel no death. He has a 3++ save only.

Feel No Death as in he can resurrect himself on a 4+. Not Feel No Pain.

 Talamare wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Ix_Tab wrote:
Guilleman has to take the Adept of the codex trait?

As far as GW does not know balance....well they probably know it to some extent however commercial imperatives often trump balance concerns in their priorities it seems.

Didn't know before I did the math


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your entire army is devestators. You have already lost. You will lose at least half of your army in the first turn. IF NOT MORE. Just a bit of fun here - 8 devestator squads with 4 missiles each shooting at 50 conscripts in cover. Just to make this easy - each unit has cherub so 5 frag missiles from each unit and frags are ap0 so conscripts will have a 4+save so I will just caculate for 20 missles to skip a step.

70 = hit 46.26 = reroll 62.08 = wound41.35 = reroll wound 55.16. Amazing! I found something that can kill a whole unit of conscripts in a single turn. It just takes an entire army of dedicated heavy weapons about 1850 points in fact - rerolling hits - and wounds.

Unfortunately for Guiliman and his entire devastator company. The resulting return fire of a very standard IG indirect fire list will easily kill 20-30 meqs a turn. You guys really need to find something else to complain about. If it's not currently dominating tournaments - it doesn't need a nerf.

Well, for starters the Conscripts need to get in range of the Devastators, might take a few turns trudging up the field

Which means that the Devastators will likely be aiming at the Basilisks behind them
but this does creates a potential issue based on how the map looks...
If the Basilisks are able to be completely hidden, then the Devastators can't shoot the threats that matter.

Or - you can just setup outside of the devs range. It's not like you are giving up board control - he already does that to himself with his list design. 48 inches is not the whole table and the devs themselves take up space and block each other for max range shooting. The units in this army can't take up more than about an 18 inch diameter area in order to get their buff. If they move they get -1 to hit - which is a disaster for shooting efficiency. Now your 4+ to hit and only reroll 1's and 2's. Obviously going into a game against 40 meq's - you don't need to worry about objectives anyways - you just table them.

It is very easy to do this with the i go you go deployment - and the fact that almost every unit in the guiliball is going to be placed in the same area. It is very easy to deploy in such a way that they have nothing to shoot without moving.

A table is 48" by 72"

If a Devastator is at the 36" of the 72"

Then he will create a 24" by 36" Triangle between the furthest possible point
Pythagorean Theorem states this point will be 43.27" away
Which is less than the 48" of the Missile Launcher, so yes 48" IS the whole table.

Depends on deployment. You might not have access to that area - it might not be in your deployment zone - it might have a big impassable feature there. Simply stating that there are points on a board that 48" is short and not to assume the they will have range to everything based on deployment.

Your retort is literally something you already quoted me on?

I'm just restating my point in a different way. I didn't claim there isn't an area on the table that a 48" range weapon can be in range of everything.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

I mean, 40 BS3+ missile launchers with re-rolls still expect 55 wounds on T7 3+ even after they move. That's not nothing. The weakness of a mass ML list is mass light infantry, same as everything else.

Well - 40 bs 3 missiles with 0 rerolls average 41.5 damage against t7 3+ vehicals. Only a 32% increase in damage with guiliman. Only 12% more damage than you could have expected for just including 2 rocket dev units for Guilimans cost. Is this really what we are complaining about guys? A 360 point LOW buffer unit that comes with a whole list of strategic problems (mainly being you have to deploy your army withing a 6" bubble) with his use that barely gives you a 10% increase in efficiency over just including more of the weapons you are firing?

It is again very hard to believe that you're engaging in good faith. You were talking as if missile launchers are terrible after they move (to try to kill far-away Basilisks or something). I pointed out that actually you still expect to kill a whole bunch of T7 3+ vehicles after moving, with re-rolls. Now you're comparing this to how much damage they'd have done if they'd stood still and shot. But if they could have shot their targets without moving then they'd have done that even with Guilliman present!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Considering Abaddon is 253 pts for a significantly inferior stat line, half the aura, worse weapons by far, and not nearly as tanky, I'd say the extra 107 pts are well worth their investment.

Meanwhile Guilliman sports a 3++ invuln, Feel no Death (4+), and still somehow gives you 3 extra command points for no apparent reason.

He has no feel no death. He has a 3++ save only.

Yes he does, he has a 4+ chance to ignore his own death. v This guy knows what I'm talking about.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Feel No Death as in he can resurrect himself on a 4+. Not Feel No Pain.

So I've read the thread and figured I'd chime in. He is definitely powerful but the points cost is about where it needs to be. I'll defend my case as follows:
1) The vaunted re-rolls are strong but only bring a super large increase when you need 4s or worse to,wound. When you needs 3s and 3s, a cheap captain and LT will only give you less results approximately once every 6 dice. So it increases your bad weapons which normally gives good saves and doesn't matter..
2) What kind of games and boards are you guys playing on when a SM army can all sit around a single model in cover and shoot everything important to your army? LoS blocking terrain is a thing, which means you should get the alpha with the important guns. Objectives are a thing; which means the army has to be mobile and spread out or lose on points which means it loses out on re-rolls.
3) Being a LoW slot and a monster is a significant thing. It means you need to take more HQs which don't contribute firepower to the board and take up more of your list. It also means you can't easily take any other other LoW pieces. Lastly, it means you can't go up or thru ruins and benefit for lots of infantry related buffs (apothecary)
4) His significant buffs are ultramarine only. This impacts unit choice and having to take inferior (imo) chapter tactics.

So ultimately I believe his point cost is about right. He matches his fluff, being one of the most tactical commanders that the universe has ever seen, a monster in combat, and accessible to lead any imperium army. If you bump up the price, he is absolutely untakeable in any army outside of UM, which he is already close to. I can certainly see an argument to be made to drop his reroll everything to just 1s to hit and wound to appease the cries of OP. But let's face it, he is the whole hero of the fluff currently and they want him to make an appearance on the table top. They are going to push the balance as far as they can to make it happen because a living primarch needs to be a monster presence but still have an army to command around him.

if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.

As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.

 bullyboy wrote:
if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.

As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.

Which LOW in particular is under-performing?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.

As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.

Which LOW in particular is under-performing?

WraithKnights. While still good IMO, that is not an opinion shared by most. WKs can cost close to twice Guiliman and can die in the first turn.
Guiliman cannot feasibly be shoot at, and even if you can, he is harder to kill than a WK. WKs also do not DOUBLE you army's firepower.

There is a guy in my LGS that plays a fairly balanced Ultramarine list and we tested it against 3 WKs. Guiliman allowed his army to drop 2 of them in a single turn.
And that was without his 2 lascannon Predators, which the WKs managed to kill in the first turn.
Re-rolling hits AND wounds allowed 2 Autocannon Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and the various Grav/Plasma tactical marines to dish out 48 unsaved wounds/damage to T8/3+sv models in a single turn. Even bolters became a threat

Guiliman by himself is fine, but doubling damage output for even half your army should cost a lot more than he does.
He really should give the re-rolls against ENEMY units within 6" of him, not to friendly units near him.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
if his cost is about right, then there is a crapton of other models that need a significant point reduction.

As for the whole devastator/IG argument, that's just silly to the extreme. There are plenty of other units that Guilleman can buff that are better than devs. It's almost as if some of you can only think of one unit and spam it endlessly...yawn.

Which LOW in particular is under-performing?

WraithKnights. While still good IMO, that is not an opinion shared by most. WKs can cost close to twice Guiliman and can die in the first turn.
Guiliman cannot feasibly be shoot at, and even if you can, he is harder to kill than a WK. WKs also do not DOUBLE you army's firepower.

There is a guy in my LGS that plays a fairly balanced Ultramarine list and we tested it against 3 WKs. Guiliman allowed his army to drop 2 of them in a single turn.
And that was without his 2 lascannon Predators, which the WKs managed to kill in the first turn.
Re-rolling hits AND wounds allowed 2 Autocannon Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and the various Grav/Plasma tactical marines to dish out 48 unsaved wounds/damage to T8/3+sv models in a single turn. Even bolters became a threat

Guiliman by himself is fine, but doubling damage output for even half your army should cost a lot more than he does.
He really should give the re-rolls against ENEMY units within 6" of him, not to friendly units near him.

-

I cant agree - the WK is terrible - need's some real buffs. At least a natural 5++ save and it's shield should bring that to a 4++. Plus it's weapons should be cheaper.