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ERJAK wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Yuber wrote:
The biggest concern I have for Intercessors is that their transport is stupid expensive, and they're not that much good if they're footslogging all the time. RG intercessors are a different story tho.

yeah Primaris Marines really need a "rhino analogue"

I mean...do they though? What do you really gain putting intercessors in a transport? It's not really worth it to protect them, the 30-42" range banding means they don't really need the extra movement, and they're 2 wounds with a 2+ save in cover. Give'em stalkers and pretend they're HB devs.

Reivers deepstrike, giving up a turn of shooting with hellblasters isn't an awesome option and starting them off the board to protect them isn't super necessary if you have LOS blocking terrain. Inceptors deepstrike. Redemptor is a dreadnought, Characters should be moving with the units they buff.

Outside of the Aggressors there isn't really anything to be gained METAL BAWXES and Aggressors benefit more from the ravenguard drop than any unit in the game.

In fact the only times you ever really use transports are for fragile units, which primaris are not, slow close/mid range unit which only the aggressors are, melee units that can't deepstrike which primaris don't have, and transports that are also ridiculously efficient gunboats like the razorback or immolator.

The problem with primaris is that they're A) overcosted B) don't have 30 years of multiple new kits per year behind them and C) Concentrate their dakka way too heavily into single models. Transports are largely irrelevant.

I suppose the better statement would be a "Razorback analogue"

The only Primaris model I truly need is the Librarian. It's expensive as hell but actually has the option for a HELMET, which I don't think GW has done since 3rd edition or something, except as Forge World stuff.

Seriously, GW, let characters wear helmets for cryin' out loud.

The Repulsor, properly armed, can spit something on the order of 40 shots in a round.

What I'm not sure of is if, pointwise, it's better than just having 3 Razorbacks with Assault Cannons doing largely the same thing.

 Yuber wrote:


I suppose the better statement would be a "Razorback analogue"

A mini artillery piece that 6 marines can 'Bravely Bold Sir Robin' in on turn one?

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Repulsor, properly armed, can spit something on the order of 40 shots in a round.

What I'm not sure of is if, pointwise, it's better than just having 3 Razorbacks with Assault Cannons doing largely the same thing.

Razors lose offense by moving and are made worthless by being assaulted by a grot. While you do get a fair amount more survivability for 3 razors - you also gain 2 more drops - so likely going second if you take this approach - which sort of evens out the survivability issue as well. I think the repuslor is probably the best space marine vehicle available atm. The fact that you can start 2 primaris units in them is just icing on the cake. They don't really need the transport but it reduces your drops AND prevents alpha strike damage. I like it a lot.

Reivers seem on point. If an enemy unit is on top of a tall Ruin, clearing the lower levels enables them to Grav-chute into the floor and then do grapnel takedowns like they're in Arkham City. Even if not, they have excellent chances of charging and denying OW to units on tall vantage points. Definitely a potent wild card unit that'll intimidate during deployment.

I was actually going to start a thread about "why does GW seem to hate their Primaris?"

Reivers are rather decent in total, but the Bolt Carbines are just the assault 2 bolters that they look like(seriously, in the first images I saw I was just like: why do the reivers have a Plain old boltgun with an unnecessary fore-grip, unnecessary because that is the purpose of the textured part of normal bolters, you know, where every marine ever built holds them in their left hand). They do fill a role in terror assault tactics with their shock grenades. they can be used to great effect.

Intercessors; meh. 8th edition pushed Tactical choices with every model/weapon on a unit firing at that weapon's proper target. Intercessor's weapons are all or nothing so we are granted no tactical flexibility there, only monotasked for certain functions(and again, there is no difference between auto bolt rifle and Bolt Carbine, other than the ABR costing points it should not). Stalker Rifle has some use as per an above poster... if it were also free. Underslung grenade Launcher is decent as a unit upgrade.

Interceptors: Pretty great base unit; does something no one else does(drop and shoot slightly better and cheaper than tac termies). Not sold on the Plasma blasters just yet; if they were assault 3 instead of d3, that would be different. But as d3, not worth the increase in points(in those games).

The Special Characters: This is an important aside; nearly all are an additional PL, all but Libbeys are additional points. You do not gain any more than a Wound and an Attack from them. most even have less weapon options. Eff that. Libby in points instead of PL: yeah, why not.

Repulsor: I first noticed it as a DT, Jazzed. Then saw the Base Points(and real cash cost), Boo. If a game could afford more than one, I would try to as well. A DT at over a Land Raider in points(yes with more than twice the firepower) is just ridiculous. still advise at least 1.

Aggressors: until I thought of a use for them; full yawn. looking a little closer, meh unless you need a guardian unit. these are not a Space Marine Army unit, they are an IG bodyguard unit. They have a total of 2 weapons at max(1 gauntlets, and stock one frag launcher); advance and fire without penalty is pretty ok on an all assault weapon unit, but sit still guarding a squishy character that must be assaulted through their double firing caves is better P-fist is a decent back-up for a 6-wound 2+ unit. 6 .75-ranged bolters is meh, when backed up with a d6 .75-ranged bolter. flamestorm are worse as just double flamers outside of overwatch, or double overwatch(hello guardian unit). downside is cost of a purely defensive unit(advance without penalty eans nothing to the double flamers). If the storm guantlets were higher Strength, i would buy a unit(honestly might still in a combined Imperium detachment for reasons above).

Redemptor Dread: I play Sons of Medusa, enough said for it as a must buy. But in any Marine force it is fairy close to auto-include. Points expensive but deadly and durable enough to justify.

Inceptors are a base unit ? 3 models for 225 pts ? Their offensive capabilities are good, 18 shots at 18", with S5 AP-1 W1. But their defensive capabilities are somewhat lacking. Only T5, 3+ sv and 2 wounds each. Thats only 6 wounds for the whole squad. There are far better choices available for 225 pts.

Yes there are better choices for the points. But as we are talking about effectiveness of Primaris units they are pretty good only at base unit(that is just the 3 with assault bolters). Adding more Inceptors just adds more points to an already expensive unit. 18, 18" move and fire without penalty s5 shots is actually good.

They should be played aggressively, but not quite suicidally. Drop them in just outside of 9" from an enemy character or somewhere that will disrupt your opponent's tactics; shoot, attempt the charge(effectively hammer of wrath means you want to charge with them). If you can assassinate an enemy character that is great; if you fail the charge and get charged do not worry, they fly so can disengage in your turn drop back a half-inch, shoot and charge back in.

They do not have the best defenses, no, but they are going to be a little harder to wound for most enemy units.

Inceptors dont have 18" move. I wouldnt charge with them, especially not a character with a power weapon. They are weak in CC. I once charged a commissar with a power fist, not a good idea. One died, one lost a wound, before i killed the commissar.

So are hellblasters so bad people don't mention them or what? I notice hardly anyone mentions them.

It pretty much the same story as with the inceptors. Good offense, bad defense. They die even faster, only T4, but the squad has 5 models. They need to be in cover, and they need a captain along with them, making them good tank busters at 30", and very good at 15" shooting twice, supercharging their guns, rerolling 1s. I prefer my company veterans with combiplasmaguns, stormshields and JP, plus captain with the same gear.

SilverAlien wrote:
So are hellblasters so bad people don't mention them or what? I notice hardly anyone mentions them.

Quite the opposite. They are auto include in primaris armies.

I am quite saddened by the Heavy Plasma Incinerators though, as they are the coolest looking loadout for those Hellblaster minis. But at just D1 they really feel quite lacking when it comes to the obvious role it feels they're meant to be playing as armour busters. Super Charged they're pretty great but without a captain babysitting them, someone is gonna die unleashing that volley.

GenRifDrake wrote:
I am quite saddened by the Heavy Plasma Incinerators though, as they are the coolest looking loadout for those Hellblaster minis. But at just D1 they really feel quite lacking when it comes to the obvious role it feels they're meant to be playing as armour busters. Super Charged they're pretty great but without a captain babysitting them, someone is gonna die unleashing that volley.

The incinerators are still best Rapid fire is awesome.

p5freak wrote:
Inceptors dont have 18" move. I wouldnt charge with them, especially not a character with a power weapon. They are weak in CC. I once charged a commissar with a power fist, not a good idea. One died, one lost a wound, before i killed the commissar.

You missread. I did not say that they have an 18" move; I was describing their weapon as 18" move-and-fire-without-penalty.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and your anecdote on how they are bad in cc due to a commissar with a pfist:

I cannot even begin with what you must have done wrong or how badly the dice were against you.

You charged a model that could hurt your guys on a 3+ to wound.

How was the commussar even still alive to assault after your shooting phase?

You clearly failed several if not all the crushing charge rolls.

And finally, from your description it went from your turn charging them, his retaliation, his turn with the commissar locked in the combat and then until his fight phase where I cannot tell if the commissar got to swing again before you killed him. That is not weak in combat, that is actually proving survivability against a weapon just about tailored to defeat them. I assume from the lost wounds in the unit that over the course of those 2 fight phases the commissar only hit twice, maybe a 3rd time but failed to wound?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Oh, and your anecdote on how they are bad in cc due to a commissar with a pfist:

I cannot even begin with what you must have done wrong or how badly the dice were against you.

You charged a model that could hurt your guys on a 3+ to wound.

How was the commussar even still alive to assault after your shooting phase?

He was a lord commissar with 4+ armor. He had a soldier squad around him which i killed in the shooting phase. Then i charged him, did one mortal wound, did a few hits, he lost another wound, two remaining. He striked back, killing the first inceptor. Next turn he attacked first, killed the second inceptor. I hit back, finally killing him.

Inceptors now cost 180 base.

Sounds good to me, 225 was to expensive. Its still 225 for me though, because i wait for the BA codex, i wont buy two codexes.

 John Prins wrote:
The only Primaris model I truly need is the Librarian. It's expensive as hell but actually has the option for a HELMET, which I don't think GW has done since 3rd edition or something, except as Forge World stuff.

Seriously, GW, let characters wear helmets for cryin' out loud.

Heroes never wear helmets.

The Reivers kits include enough helmets, same for Aggressors. It's nice.

 Vertrucio wrote:
The Reivers kits include enough helmets, same for Aggressors. It's nice.

omy over all feel is GW realizes that some players have strong views on helmets one way or another and are really picking it up trying to make sure those views are... addressed

Hellblasters are worth a thought.
The repulsor seems also nice if upgunned.

Not sure about the Redemptor. For around the same costs. it can bring more firepower as 2 ven. dreadnoughts, but lacks 2+ ws/bs and suffers from the damage table.
Anyone did the math about the dreads?

The redemptor looks so cool, and i really like it, but points wise, not worth it.

p5freak wrote:
The redemptor looks so cool, and i really like it, but points wise, not worth it.

It's not that bad. It's like 190 points. It's not auto include but no dreadnoughts are. If you really like it - youll be fine taking it in basically any list.

The 2 vens get more melee attacks and tactical flexibility(each asscan at a different target).

Depending on support or chapter, the redemptor equates in damage chart(somewhat, vens still gain the same benefits) if from iron hands or successors and with a nearby techmarine.

It all really comes down to 2 things: tactics and slots. 2 vens take 2 elites slots, Redemptor takes 1. 2 asscan vens can split their 12 s6 shots; the Redemptor fires them all at 1 target. So 2 sides if the same coin

 Vertrucio wrote:
Inceptors now cost 180 base.

Isn't this still too much though? At 60 ppm it's only a couple points less than a single Wulfen with TH/SS. I've only been plying a couple months but they don't seem near equal in capabilities. I want to play inceptors with my SW but am having a hard time justifying the cost. Seems to get worse when you add 2 plasma exterminators per model. Full squad of 6 with the plasma for 696 points seems a little crazy.

I have been a "die-hard" Black Templar SM player and have a rather insane large force that needs finishing off (5000+ points?).

I think I may just give-in and have the Primaris Marines as Ultramarines.
I have the Girlyman... er, Roboute Guilliman model and can go from there.
I could use a change from black and white to smurf all over... er, ultramarine colouring.
It will sting a little but will certainly give a very different feel to the force and they are all of the same timeline.

As to what you feel you "need" is HQ and a couple troop choices and you are good to go.
Some could say one of each new kit and see where that takes you.
Yep, thinking all this new stuff will all go under a new army.

I think I will still get mileage out of my metal plague marines for a bit yet.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The 2 vens get more melee attacks and tactical flexibility(each asscan at a different target).

Depending on support or chapter, the redemptor equates in damage chart(somewhat, vens still gain the same benefits) if from iron hands or successors and with a nearby techmarine.

It all really comes down to 2 things: tactics and slots. 2 vens take 2 elites slots, Redemptor takes 1. 2 asscan vens can split their 12 s6 shots; the Redemptor fires them all at 1 target. So 2 sides if the same coin

I think you might have overlooked something here - each model can fire each weapon at a different target.

Heavy onslaught is a heavy 12, s6 weapon.

Assault cannon is heavy 6.

Yes, each model can fire each weapon at a separate target; but the 2 vens with assault cannons granting 12 str 6 shots that can be split into 2 groups of 6 each. The heavy onslaught must fire all 12 at the same target.


Can we take a second to talk about an intercessor weapon upgrade?
Auxiliary Grenade launcher. You can take 2 in a 10-man squad. It simply increases the range of your model's grenades. Grenades are 1 shot per unit. Taking the second one only does anything if you always combat squad. Luckily(which will probably be errata'd) they have no points value.