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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Heavy onslaught is a heavy 12, s6 weapon.

Assault cannon is heavy 6.

Yes, each model can fire each weapon at a separate target; but the 2 vens with assault cannons granting 12 str 6 shots that can be split into 2 groups of 6 each. The heavy onslaught must fire all 12 at the same target.


Can we take a second to talk about an intercessor weapon upgrade?
Auxiliary Grenade launcher. You can take 2 in a 10-man squad. It simply increases the range of your model's grenades. Grenades are 1 shot per unit. Taking the second one only does anything if you always combat squad. Luckily(which will probably be errata'd) they have no points value.

The thing about the redemptor is that it has like 8 other guns besides the heavy onslaught cannon and isn't all that much more expensive than a venerable dread with fist and asscan despite being better at range, in melee, and being FAR more survivable. Give the vendred TLC+ ML and now you have a competition.

Gotcha, I'm on the same page as you now

Yeah, taking two grenade launchers only gives you the option of combat squadding. TBH if they're free I don't see a problem with that, giving Loyalist Astartes a unit that can chuck two krak a turn for free won't go down well with 'where the Warp have our biker Chaos Lords gone' lobby.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Can we take a second to talk about an intercessor weapon upgrade?
Auxiliary Grenade launcher. You can take 2 in a 10-man squad. It simply increases the range of your model's grenades. Grenades are 1 shot per unit. Taking the second one only does anything if you always combat squad. Luckily(which will probably be errata'd) they have no points value.

I mean you don't have to take two if you don't want to, and it lets you have a backup if the dude dies. Or you combat squad anyway because you'll have 10 wounds per squad.

How many points is one inceptor with two plasma guns ?

26 points more than an inceptor with two assault bolters.

Firefox1 wrote:
26 points more than an inceptor with two assault bolters.

which IMHO is proably too expensive.

I dunno. They're nippy, and in a squad carry enough firepower to plink Tanks to death, without needing to overcharge.

Yes they're points intensive, but you get a curiously flexible unit - rate of fire enough to worry horde infantry (up to 6 shots each) S and AP to worry bigger stuff, tough enough to do OK in a smaller squad.

There's units which will arguably do all the above - but all at the same time?

I was considering doing an 'All Primaris' army - but as it stands right now, I don't think there's enough unit variety for me.

Agreed to them being very expensive.

The flexibilty of the unit is paid by the models without weapon. That can´t increase the weapons costs.
And do their plasma really quite the double damage than their bolters?

Well, they wound more often being S7, and if memory serves they've got a better base AP - so any wounds landed are more efficient.

The D3 shots thing is the only real drawback I can think of.

Their jump packs and speed are also another blessing - with a bit of care, it's possible to land them so enemy characters are the closest unit, and that's an engagement few are going to reliably survive. I'd even go so far as to say that if you pull it off, and it's someone like Abaddon or another Buff-Monkey, it may well be time to Overcharge - not only do I stand to take out an expensive model, but also deal with any buffs. YMMV of course!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, they wound more often being S7, and if memory serves they've got a better base AP - so any wounds landed are more efficient.

Not against t8(unless suicide-charging), although the AP is spot-on.

That and assault d3 is why they are not worth their points. 6 points more expensive, maybe. I'd give them 10-11 points ,ore is they were straight assault 3.

But the chance for a single shot, or average 2 shots, and only being a little better at putting wounds on t3 and t7? no thank you.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, they wound more often being S7, and if memory serves they've got a better base AP - so any wounds landed are more efficient.

Not against t8(unless suicide-charging), although the AP is spot-on.

That and assault d3 is why they are not worth their points. 6 points more expensive, maybe. I'd give them 10-11 points ,ore is they were straight assault 3.

But the chance for a single shot, or average 2 shots, and only being a little better at putting wounds on t3 and t7? no thank you.

A captain will help against suicide supercharging. There isn't much in the game which has T8. Most vehicles have T7.

There's also the chance of decent levels of multiple damage - if one overcharges.

On balance, I think they're good, but really situational.

There's things that do everything they do with greater reliability, but none with the same flexibility. So whilst not a unit for everyone, they very much do have a niche.

I for one would be far more cautious with Magnus if there's even a single unit of these chaps jetting around - and they could do a real number on my Scarab Occult and Rubricae. Against Horde armies? Really depends if it's IG with various tanks or artillery, or Orks. IG? Definitely a place. They can zip up the board and start wrecking artillery. Orks? I think the Plasma is massively overkill there, and the additional points better invested in even more Bolters! Nids though? Plasma is a better bet. Rate of fire is decent enough, and they stand a good chance of scaring and scarring even the biggest gribblies. And their speed means they can pose a threat to multiple big things, keeping your opponent on his toes.

And... Now the auxiliary grenade launcher costs points.

I dont think the plasma inceptors are to expensive, the points are acceptable, compared to company veterans with JP and combiplasma (34 pts). One inceptor does 4 attacks (on average) at 18", has W2 and T5. Two veterans are 68 pts., only 2 attacks at 18", also W2, but only T4.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And... Now the auxiliary grenade launcher costs points.

What, where, when, why, how, SHOW!

GenRifDrake wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And... Now the auxiliary grenade launcher costs points.

What, where, when, why, how, SHOW!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/10/codex-space-marines-errata-now-available/

Last entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
I dont think the plasma inceptors are to expensive, the points are acceptable, compared to company veterans with JP and combiplasma (34 pts). One inceptor does 4 attacks (on average) at 18", has W2 and T5. Two veterans are 68 pts., only 2 attacks at 18", also W2, but only T4.

It is more the juxtaposition of weapon costs.

Assault bolter and Plasma exterminator are both exclusive to the Inceptors, the cost is +13/gun for the exterminators. Net on that is -1 average shot(variable with Max the same), +2s, -2ap. There is an option with possible death to increase to +3s, -2 ap, and +1dam. The Strength and AP bonuses would be almost worth the price difference if the number of shots were the same in a stable rate; but variable shots, and multi-shot possibility of death both should add -cost or neutral cost(in the case of the multi-profile overheat).

Lets take a fictive(but likely real, I just don't feel like digging through indices to find it) pair of options unique to the same unit, with same S, AP, and Damage. The only thing that we are going to change between these weapons is the number of shots: straight up 3 for one, and d3 for the other; which should cost more?

The Solid 3. it should be about 25% more expensive.

+2S itself does have a significant advantage as it increases the 2+ to wound by 1 T value; but that only effects Lower T, and only matters starting at S6(S7 is the same as S6 in this interaction. Well 5, really, because almost nothing has T2 and 5 can damage T5 better than S4 already which is a majority of units seen.). It also increases the 3+ to wound by 2 values, and the 4+ to wound by the same; problem here is the lack of units in some of those strange T-value bands(T5 is ok, a little more common than I first thought; but T6 is, what Warwalkers and Biker-boss?), nothing currently goes above t8(maybe a fortification, or FW unit?).

-2AP has a huge advantage. Old AP4 became AP-1, anything higher than 4? Feth Off, you have 0 AP. Loss of vehicle damage charts makes 0AP just Fine, and the reduced cover rules... kinda screws low-chance save models, but whatever; I actually like them with the designers notes(allocate wounds to the ones out of cover, who should die first for being out of cover; then you get cover to the rest of the incoming wounds). Straight 6+ save for MEQ is almost being too generous, but they are said to have equivalent of Tank armor so it passes as a chance of a glancing blow. Anything lower in our original concept should just bite it.

So you have a positive Price modifier, a Positive price modifier, and a Negative price modifier.

Optional 16.666% chance to die with a "wounds t4-or-less on a 2+, and does 2 Dam" negates itself. The increase in chance to wound a MEQ is the Same Chance to kill yourself after any other potential shots kill the majority of models. 2 Dam, is fine as long as everything else went OK; the variable shots just exacerbate this neutral gain.

In short x2-2 points(total) to upgrade each gun in the unit(min 6 guns) is just waaay too much for a possibility of getting 2 shots per gun(which may or may not be incredibly rare as we have no clear rules on multiple d{x} weapons fired) as opposed to 3 shots with those higher stats. +10-15 per model with variable shots is about right, +10 per gun would be acceptable at a guaranteed 3 shots(the gun is 13 points more than a Plasma Incinerator which is a guaranteed 2 shots at -3" range)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And... Now the auxiliary grenade launcher costs points.

It costs A point. Super affordable.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Lets take a fictive(but likely real, I just don't feel like digging through indices to find it) pair of options unique to the same unit, with same S, AP, and Damage. The only thing that we are going to change between these weapons is the number of shots: straight up 3 for one, and d3 for the other; which should cost more?

The Solid 3. it should be about 25% more expensive.

Shouldn´t that be 50%? As 3 is 50% more than the statistically 2 you get out of a d3

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

In short x2-2 points(total) to upgrade each gun in the unit(min 6 guns) is just waaay too much for a possibility of getting 2 shots per gun(which may or may not be incredibly rare as we have no clear rules on multiple d{x} weapons fired) as opposed to 3 shots with those higher stats. +10-15 per model with variable shots is about right, +10 per gun would be acceptable at a guaranteed 3 shots(the gun is 13 points more than a Plasma Incinerator which is a guaranteed 2 shots at -3" range)

Having run the numbers in dice-hammer. I was surprised how good the exterminators with the average of 2 shots did across the field, only falling clearly behind vs. 6+ troops. But even with that +10 points for d3 shots would be quite enough.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:



It is more the juxtaposition of weapon costs.

You are ignoring their deepstrike capability, drop them in terrain and they get cover. T5, W2 and 2+sv makes them pretty hard to kill. Crushing charge has a 50% chance of inflicting a mortal wound for 3 models. Their assault weapons make their move characteristic 13,5" on average. You are rolling 6D3 every time they shoot, its almost impossible to get less than 3 shots per model, on average. 10-12 shots is what you get almost every time.

[delete]

p5freak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:



It is more the juxtaposition of weapon costs.

You are ignoring their deepstrike capability, drop them in terrain and they get cover. T5, W2 and 2+sv makes them pretty hard to kill. Crushing charge has a 50% chance of inflicting a mortal wound for 3 models. Their assault weapons make their move characteristic 13,5" on average. You are rolling 6D3 every time they shoot, its almost impossible to get less than 3 shots per model, on average. 10-12 shots is what you get almost every time.

All of which is nice, until you need to Overcharge the Plasma - that's a mighty big risk for such an expensive unit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm right on the fence over these chaps. There's definite advantages to them, but the points is a serious investment in a unit shockingly prone to Mortal Wounds. As a Thousand Sons player, much as they could cause Magnus a headache, he's still capable of swatting them like particularly over-sized flies in a straight fight.

They're definitely a risky unit. On one hand, they're a pretty superb 'all-round' threat. But I can absolutely see why some players may be put off at the sheer expense of fielding them in a list.

May get a box though. The models are gorgeous, spesh with the space helmet thing down.

Which unit isn't prone to mortal wounds ? Which unit has a good chance surviving an encounter with Magnus ? If your opponent wants them dead, they will probably die, but they will absorb a lot of dakka before they go down.
A captain will solve the supercharge problem.

It's more they come in small, expensive packages. Even a couple of mortal wounds a turn is going to have a disproportionate effect on them, compared to other units.

Remember, I'm not saying they're a bad unit. I'm just weighing up their pros and cons as I see them. There pros are many, but their cons may put peeps off them.

Fluff-wise, why is it that Primaris marines can't use regular marines transports? It doesn't make any sense. They refuse to use them?

The Primaris look better because they are much bigger than guardsmen and don't have that big head/hands vibe. Unfortunately, the intercessor kit has some of them in that weird squat pose and the DI one's look much better.

For the above reason and the possible replacement of regular marines over time, I think intercessors at least are a must-buy. Fluff-wise it makes perfect sense slowly phasing out the regular marines because attrition will naturally do that if all new initiates are being turned into Primaris marines.

 Popsghostly wrote:
Fluff-wise, why is it that Primaris marines can't use regular marines transports? It doesn't make any sense. They refuse to use them?

The Primaris look better because they are much bigger than guardsmen and don't have that big head/hands vibe. Unfortunately, the intercessor kit has some of them in that weird squat pose and the DI one's look much better.

For the above reason and the possible replacement of regular marines over time, I think intercessors at least are a must-buy. Fluff-wise it makes perfect sense slowly phasing out the regular marines because attrition will naturally do that if all new initiates are being turned into Primaris marines.

Probaby the same reason IG can't ride in Rhinos or Sororitas can't ride in Land Raiders.

"This toy is FOR ME and not FOR YOU!"

3x Intercessor squads to fill the battalion detachments is tough though. I got an old squad of marines just to fill points and get extra weapons.

TBH, in friendly games I have no problems with people putting primaris models in transports that can carry terminators.

p5freak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:



It is more the juxtaposition of weapon costs.

You are ignoring their deepstrike capability, drop them in terrain and they get cover. T5, W2 and 2+sv makes them pretty hard to kill. Crushing charge has a 50% chance of inflicting a mortal wound for 3 models. Their assault weapons make their move characteristic 13,5" on average. You are rolling 6D3 every time they shoot, its almost impossible to get less than 3 shots per model, on average. 10-12 shots is what you get almost every time.

Yes, I am ignoring all of that because I have no problem with the base-model's cost.

I am discussing the difference in cost of their weapons, which are both unique to them. No other model can have an assault bolter or a plasma exterminator. So only the difference in weapons and the near doubling of the plasma in cost is why the plasma is worthless as an option.

Then we can compare the plasma exterminator costs compared to the other plasma weapon's costs. The Exterminator is 7pts/gun more expensive than the nearly same profile cannon. The differences? Half range and assault vs heavy. The plasma cannon can be fielded on a variety of models, some of whom can mitigate the heavy movement penalty. Inceptors do mitigate the range with move 10" and the assault property allows it to be fired like a tac squad moving and firing the cannon(but the tac squad increases the effective range of the cannon by 6 more inches) for d6 more inches. But all the Inceptor movement should be accounted for in their profile.