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Not really surprising.

IG are this edition's Eldar. Clearly top tier with a bag of great options - its not just Conscripts that are the problem (although they contribute).

They might not be once all the books are released but from now to Christmas I expect them to place well in every tournament and they shall be the army dictating the meta.

So Imperial Guard dominated the tournament? Not at all shocked.

They have no hard counter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Not really surprising.

IG are this edition's Eldar.

As everyone here has basically been saying. They've dominated the tournaments i've played in (admittedly, smaller local events), as well as every single casual game.

 Talamare wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I hope they don't make conscripts too bad after their (arguably justifiable) Nerf.

I'm really hoping they get body armour rather than flack (in game effect us a 6+ instead of a 5+) and that they are limited to a Max squad size of 30.
Maybe chuck in a requirement of a Ld test for orders, and perhaps they won't be as effective at offense, but excellent at being "operation human shield"...

More experienced Dakkanauts can share their Scion Nerf ideas, as I don't even know where to begin!

Other than possibly reducing the max limit of a Scion Squad to 2 Special Weapons instead of four (right now it's 2 per 5 Scions) do Scions really need a nerf? Not at all a fan of the trend of crying to nerf this or that anytime it appears in a list with regularity - particularly with AM. Are AM just not supposed to appear in the Top 10 of a tournament?

Scions are already 9pts + weapon, after all. The problem people seem to have, really, is more with Plasma Guns - between their versatility against all threats thanks to overcharge and their low cost. Nerf the problem not the symptoms. If plasma guns went to STR 6 normally and overcharged to STR 7 while staying at 1 damage I imagine the angst would lessen.

I mean, the other consistent element of these lists were also FW options - all three had Earthshaker Batteries in them. I haven't seen a tenth of the angst against the wildly unbalanced FW options as we have over Conscripts.

Plasma Gun needs a nerf too
but if you nerf Plasma Gun everyone will instantly just switch to Melta Gun

Also, Why isn't Plasma Gun overpowered on a Terminator? (rhetorical)

One could say that it's not just 1 problem, it's a web of smaller problems.

Also drop the "Are AM just not supposed to appear in the Top 10 of a tournament?"
It gets us nowhere.

There is nothing wrong with that for several reasons.
a) melta isn't nearly as useful with deepstrike
b) melta is more expensive and farily poor vs anti infantry
c) most vehicles outside of flyers aren't that competitive. The fact plasma is better vs vehicles in MOST situations than meltaguns is just bad balancing.

Im all for plasmaguns/pistols getting nerfed to str6 base and str7 overcharged (I think overcharged at 2damage is fine).
This will make plasmagun worse vs t8 and t7 vehicles even when they deepstrike compared to meltaguns. And it makes grenade launchers a bit more comparable (even though grenade launchers still need a slight buff to make them better then the basic lasgun w orders.

conscripts need an ORDER nerf... limit the orders the conscripts can receive and you severly cut down on their offense (FRFSRF), utility (get back in the fight). This still keeps them as a durable screen unit but much less effective offensively.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

I wonder how well the intercept stratagem would work against them.

i need to double check the wording though.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

Yeah the plasma I expect a hard nerf-bat whallop. The tanks I am not sure are undercosted - if you mean Artillery, then I have no idea as I do not run them and haven't seen much math comparing them to other tanks. The Leman Russ is pretty bad, to be fair.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

Yeah the plasma I expect a hard nerf-bat whallop. The tanks I am not sure are undercosted - if you mean Artillery, then I have no idea as I do not run them and haven't seen much math comparing them to other tanks. The Leman Russ is pretty bad, to be fair.

Yes, I agree with the plasma. And that's honestly pretty well deserved.

Also yes - I do think Leman Russ are strong, but i'm referring to Artillery, things like Manticores. I would suggest proxying a few for your next game and walling them with conscripts. You'll have enough points left over for a nasty deep strike plasma. if you're feeling especially cruel, throw Celestine into the mix for 150 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd love to see how the solitary Grey Knights player did :( Solidarity! King Arthur in Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace

 Quickjager wrote:
Oh hey, they only brought conscripts in ALL THREE LISTS! WHERE ARE YOU MELISSA AND KANLUWEN!?!

If you want to whine at me about conscripts, while ignoring all the other units that it takes just as much firepower-per-point as conscripts to remove, I quite simply have no time for it.

And neither you nor the mods want to hear the words I have to say about you for trying to specifically call me out by name.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

Yeah the plasma I expect a hard nerf-bat whallop. The tanks I am not sure are undercosted - if you mean Artillery, then I have no idea as I do not run them and haven't seen much math comparing them to other tanks. The Leman Russ is pretty bad, to be fair.

Yes, I agree with the plasma. And that's honestly pretty well deserved.

Also yes - I do think Leman Russ are strong, but i'm referring to Artillery, things like Manticores. I would suggest proxying a few for your next game and walling them with conscripts. You'll have enough points left over for a nasty deep strike plasma. if you're feeling especially cruel, throw Celestine into the mix for 150 points.

Oh no I would never inflict that upon someone! I run a tank regiment, so having artillery and conscripts is unfluffy anyways.

Celestine is staying with my burgeoning Sororitas army (who is going to be predominantly footslogging!) for fluff as well, though I may mix and match the tanks and the sisters - still trying to find an efficient solution to anti-tank in a pure footslogging sisters force.

Anyways, that aside, yeah, the plasma thing is unbelievable. We're in total agreement on that.

Audustum wrote:
So per the other thread I made for BAO results (which is also still on page 1), 15 of these lists we're undefeated at the close of round 3. These included lots of Tau, Eldar and Chaos. As this shows, by the end of round 6 only two lists remained in that category.

What that tells me is that the final 3 rounds were actually pretty close so the people crying nerf are likely overdoing it. We likely should wait for Codexes before doing any balancing and see where things shake up. The only other clear takeaway I see is that Tau need a small buff for some of their stuff besides Commander Suits (which can be delivered via Codex I'd imagine as tactics or Stratagems).

This says nothing since being undefeated after the first 3 games vs most of the chaff fluffy lists isn't crazy. By default at the end of round 6 there is generally ONLY 2 undefeated lists since that is the FINAL game. Furthermore after 8 editions where gw rarely adjusted a single army during the entire edition a wait and see approach for several months NEVER worked.... Again we can go over this over and over but waiting a year or more for codexs to release does not help balance the game when even after the first 3-4 weeks people were able to accurately predict which units are to powerful. Oh look scion plasma spam and conscript hordes won!!! that was a surprise... NOT... tau commander spam, brimstone spam, and guilliman reroll lists; all did well? shocker.. I think we need to wait another year and about another dozen tournament results to show what people have been saying the last 2 months....great idea

 Gamgee wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Incoming nerf for guard.

And hopefully a price hike for Gulliman like many have been calling for. Maybe not a huge one but it needs to be enough.

Rowboat is FAR easier to play around than conscripts. The marines as a whole are looking incredibly mediocre without the stormraven crutch, and Rowboat added in makes them strong, but not busted, even if he is undercosted. But maybe he's not in the context of the mediocre nature of marines. This, btw, is what marines would have looked like in 7th w/o gladius and deathstar. Mediocre is what they naturally are because 40K punishes generalists HEAVILY.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

Yeah the plasma I expect a hard nerf-bat whallop. The tanks I am not sure are undercosted - if you mean Artillery, then I have no idea as I do not run them and haven't seen much math comparing them to other tanks. The Leman Russ is pretty bad, to be fair.

Yes, I agree with the plasma. And that's honestly pretty well deserved.

Also yes - I do think Leman Russ are strong, but i'm referring to Artillery, things like Manticores. I would suggest proxying a few for your next game and walling them with conscripts. You'll have enough points left over for a nasty deep strike plasma. if you're feeling especially cruel, throw Celestine into the mix for 150 points.

Oh no I would never inflict that upon someone! I run a tank regiment, so having artillery and conscripts is unfluffy anyways.

Celestine is staying with my burgeoning Sororitas army (who is going to be predominantly footslogging!) for fluff as well, though I may mix and match the tanks and the sisters - still trying to find an efficient solution to anti-tank in a pure footslogging sisters force.

Anyways, that aside, yeah, the plasma thing is unbelievable. We're in total agreement on that.

That sounds like a good mix. See what you're playing is actually cool, and should be viable.

But in truth - running Celestine with any list is a solid choice. She's so broken in 8th.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

Yeah the plasma I expect a hard nerf-bat whallop. The tanks I am not sure are undercosted - if you mean Artillery, then I have no idea as I do not run them and haven't seen much math comparing them to other tanks. The Leman Russ is pretty bad, to be fair.

Yes, I agree with the plasma. And that's honestly pretty well deserved.

Also yes - I do think Leman Russ are strong, but i'm referring to Artillery, things like Manticores. I would suggest proxying a few for your next game and walling them with conscripts. You'll have enough points left over for a nasty deep strike plasma. if you're feeling especially cruel, throw Celestine into the mix for 150 points.

Oh no I would never inflict that upon someone! I run a tank regiment, so having artillery and conscripts is unfluffy anyways.

Celestine is staying with my burgeoning Sororitas army (who is going to be predominantly footslogging!) for fluff as well, though I may mix and match the tanks and the sisters - still trying to find an efficient solution to anti-tank in a pure footslogging sisters force.

Anyways, that aside, yeah, the plasma thing is unbelievable. We're in total agreement on that.

That sounds like a good mix. See what you're playing is actually cool, and should be viable.

But in truth - running Celestine with any list is a solid choice. She's so broken in 8th.

I have not had the pleasure of running her on the table but this is what I am hearing from a lot of people. Would you say it's her durability, combat stats, auras, speed, or something else? If it's her synergy, that just adds more data to the "GW's army synergy is the worst balanced part of 8th" thought I've been having.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Incoming nerf for guard.

And hopefully a price hike for Gulliman like many have been calling for. Maybe not a huge one but it needs to be enough.

Rowboat is FAR easier to play around than conscripts. The marines as a whole are looking incredibly mediocre without the stormraven crutch, and Rowboat added in makes them strong, but not busted, even if he is undercosted. But maybe he's not in the context of the mediocre nature of marines. This, btw, is what marines would have looked like in 7th w/o gladius and deathstar. Mediocre is what they naturally are because 40K punishes generalists HEAVILY.

Roboute is actually not threatening. He serves to maximize the firepower you have on the table, but that requires that it (a) be near him, within 6", and (b) that the firepower is alive.

He does nothing to improve the survivability, nor the range & line of sight issues, that come with marines heavy weaponry, be it power armor or tank.

How hard is it to shoot marines off of the table? Not very? Ok. You just solved the problem of Guilliman. Ignore him and kill the stuff around him. It's not hard.

Azrael is more threatening as the 4++ means your tanks lifespan just doubled.

pismakron wrote:
1) Conscripts + plasma scions
2) Conscripts + plasma scions + Celestine
3) Conscripts + stormraven + Guilliman


Can't say that I am surprised

There is a good bit more nuance to the third list than this post implies.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Incoming nerf for guard.

And hopefully a price hike for Gulliman like many have been calling for. Maybe not a huge one but it needs to be enough.

Rowboat is FAR easier to play around than conscripts. The marines as a whole are looking incredibly mediocre without the stormraven crutch, and Rowboat added in makes them strong, but not busted, even if he is undercosted. But maybe he's not in the context of the mediocre nature of marines. This, btw, is what marines would have looked like in 7th w/o gladius and deathstar. Mediocre is what they naturally are because 40K punishes generalists HEAVILY.

Roboute is actually not threatening. He serves to maximize the firepower you have on the table, but that requires that it (a) be near him, within 6", and (b) that the firepower is alive.

He does nothing to improve the survivability, nor the range & line of sight issues, that come with marines heavy weaponry, be it power armor or tank.

How hard is it to shoot marines off of the table? Not very? Ok. You just solved the problem of Guilliman. Ignore him and kill the stuff around him. It's not hard.

Azrael is more threatening as the 4++ means your tanks lifespan just doubled.

That's more detail than I provided, but that's what I meant by playing around him.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

Yeah the plasma I expect a hard nerf-bat whallop. The tanks I am not sure are undercosted - if you mean Artillery, then I have no idea as I do not run them and haven't seen much math comparing them to other tanks. The Leman Russ is pretty bad, to be fair.

Yes, I agree with the plasma. And that's honestly pretty well deserved.

Also yes - I do think Leman Russ are strong, but i'm referring to Artillery, things like Manticores. I would suggest proxying a few for your next game and walling them with conscripts. You'll have enough points left over for a nasty deep strike plasma. if you're feeling especially cruel, throw Celestine into the mix for 150 points.

Oh no I would never inflict that upon someone! I run a tank regiment, so having artillery and conscripts is unfluffy anyways.

Celestine is staying with my burgeoning Sororitas army (who is going to be predominantly footslogging!) for fluff as well, though I may mix and match the tanks and the sisters - still trying to find an efficient solution to anti-tank in a pure footslogging sisters force.

Anyways, that aside, yeah, the plasma thing is unbelievable. We're in total agreement on that.

That sounds like a good mix. See what you're playing is actually cool, and should be viable.

But in truth - running Celestine with any list is a solid choice. She's so broken in 8th.

I have not had the pleasure of running her on the table but this is what I am hearing from a lot of people. Would you say it's her durability, combat stats, auras, speed, or something else? If it's her synergy, that just adds more data to the "GW's army synergy is the worst balanced part of 8th" thought I've been having.

It's everything. Speed, auras, durability, combat stats (if you charge her, you'll get attacked 18 times before you can fight back a second time, if you fail to kill her). She's got fly so she can freely leave combat, she comes back to life if slain, it's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

I field her in my tournament list. It's just not fun though, i feel lame using it. At the last tournament, nearly half the players had a Celestine. Those that didn't had no answer.

Based on her stats i would say she should be base 300 points. And that's still nearly an auto-include at 2000 points.

To be fair, Guilliman does improve the units survivability around him sort of indirectly:

If I may steal an example from MMOs, many DPSs go a 'glass cannon' build which depends on murdering any threats to their health before they can retaliate sufficiently to end their existence. Even 'non-glass-cannon' DPS builds still have to kill quickly, as the increased duration of a fight increases the chance that they (or one of their comrades) will make a mistake.

So (now back to 40k) by giving things the ability to delete the greatest threats to their existence before those things can impact the game meaningfully, Guilliman indirectly buffs the survivability of the units he's around.

The simplest example would be in a vacuum: A Vanquisher with MM + Lascannon vs a Predator Annihilator. Giving the Annihilator the ability to delete the Vanquisher before it fires increases its survivability in this vacuum situation far more than a 4++ would.

It's a combination of her durability and speed. Her synergy is actually kinda mediocre; she doesn't deep strike with seraphim, repentia just don't survive long enough to synergize with her, and we have no other assault units for her to synergize with (Seraphim aren't really an assault unit). She is a loner amongst the Sisters rather limited list of units.

Frankly Celestine should not be nerfed, though for a very different reason-- because she's literally the only named character Sisters players have, and one of only two (!!!) HQ slot choices we have.

And the other one is, at best, mediocre, being a 45 point, T3/S3/W5 model with a 3+/6++ save, that has pitiful equipment options (best melee weapon is 22 points for S6 AP-4 D3 damage at -1 to-hit, best shooting option is a combiweapon or storm bolter), no jump pack option, and only has the standard "reroll to-hit rolls of one" buff aura. Her only benefit is that she's cheap.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, that's what happens when you leave conscripts with orders. Their firepower is ridiculous with orders.

I'd wonder if these lists would fare equally well if Orders were removed from conscripts.

It's more than that, insanely cheap deep strike plasma, as well as total board control with conscripts, that are nearly impossible to remove. As well as undercosted tanks.

Yeah the plasma I expect a hard nerf-bat whallop. The tanks I am not sure are undercosted - if you mean Artillery, then I have no idea as I do not run them and haven't seen much math comparing them to other tanks. The Leman Russ is pretty bad, to be fair.

Yes, I agree with the plasma. And that's honestly pretty well deserved.

Also yes - I do think Leman Russ are strong, but i'm referring to Artillery, things like Manticores. I would suggest proxying a few for your next game and walling them with conscripts. You'll have enough points left over for a nasty deep strike plasma. if you're feeling especially cruel, throw Celestine into the mix for 150 points.

Oh no I would never inflict that upon someone! I run a tank regiment, so having artillery and conscripts is unfluffy anyways.

Celestine is staying with my burgeoning Sororitas army (who is going to be predominantly footslogging!) for fluff as well, though I may mix and match the tanks and the sisters - still trying to find an efficient solution to anti-tank in a pure footslogging sisters force.

Anyways, that aside, yeah, the plasma thing is unbelievable. We're in total agreement on that.

That sounds like a good mix. See what you're playing is actually cool, and should be viable.

But in truth - running Celestine with any list is a solid choice. She's so broken in 8th.

I have not had the pleasure of running her on the table but this is what I am hearing from a lot of people. Would you say it's her durability, combat stats, auras, speed, or something else? If it's her synergy, that just adds more data to the "GW's army synergy is the worst balanced part of 8th" thought I've been having.

It's everything. Speed, auras, durability, combat stats (if you charge her, you'll get attacked 18 times before you can fight back a second time, if you fail to kill her). She's got fly so she can freely leave combat, she comes back to life if slain, it's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

I field her in my tournament list. It's just not fun though, i feel lame using it. At the last tournament, nearly half the players had a Celestine. Those that didn't had no answer.

Based on her stats i would say she should be base 300 points. And that's still nearly an auto-include at 2000 points.

Oh! Well, maybe I can count on her to carry the weight that the rest of my footsloggers will inevitably drop when they run into a Land Raider and somehow I get all of my meltaguns within 6" and my entire army gives it 10 wounds. XD

 Quickjager wrote:
Oh hey, they only brought conscripts in ALL THREE LISTS! WHERE ARE YOU MELISSA AND KANLUWEN!?!

Probably off in the conscript thread agreeing that conscripts are OP like they have since 8th was released.

 Melissia wrote:
It's a combination of her durability and speed. Her synergy is actually kinda mediocre; she doesn't deep strike with seraphim, repentia just don't survive long enough to synergize with her, and we have no other assault units for her to synergize with (Seraphim aren't really an assault unit). She is a loner amongst the Sisters rather limited list of units.

Frankly Celestine should not be nerfed, though for a very different reason-- because she's literally the only named character Sisters players have, and one of only two (!!!) HQ slot choices we have.

And the other one is, at best, mediocre, being a 45 point, T3/S3/W5 model with a 3+/6++ save, that has pitiful equipment options (best melee weapon is 22 points for S6 AP-4 D3 damage at -1 to-hit, best shooting option is a combiweapon or storm bolter), no jump pack option, and only has the standard "reroll to-hit rolls of one" buff aura. Her only benefit is that she's cheap.

Yeah I'm going to take her for this reason no matter how ridiculous she is - spamming Canonesses just doesn't sound fun.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
To be fair, Guilliman does improve the units survivability around him sort of indirectly:

If I may steal an example from MMOs, many DPSs go a 'glass cannon' build which depends on murdering any threats to their health before they can retaliate sufficiently to end their existence. Even 'non-glass-cannon' DPS builds still have to kill quickly, as the increased duration of a fight increases the chance that they (or one of their comrades) will make a mistake.

So (now back to 40k) by giving things the ability to delete the greatest threats to their existence before those things can impact the game meaningfully, Guilliman indirectly buffs the survivability of the units he's around.

The simplest example would be in a vacuum: A Vanquisher with MM + Lascannon vs a Predator Annihilator. Giving the Annihilator the ability to delete the Vanquisher before it fires increases its survivability in this vacuum situation far more than a 4++ would.

It's still something that you can overcome. If for any reason, the alpha fails, you can neuter the Rowboat list in fairly standard ways.

Leman Russ are too expensive. I'd expect a 15-20 point reduction in the codex.

If kept barebones I think a wyvern is better versus all targets in terms of points efficiency (and quite a bit better versus softer targets).

A fully tricked out Russ does more damage but also starts to become a bit of a points pinata. You are making your opponents anti-tank very efficient which isn't really desirable.

Plasma is just too cheap. I'd expect them to go up to 10 points per model, perhaps 12. Still not sure it would be enough but it would potentially add up.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
To be fair, Guilliman does improve the units survivability around him sort of indirectly:

If I may steal an example from MMOs, many DPSs go a 'glass cannon' build which depends on murdering any threats to their health before they can retaliate sufficiently to end their existence. Even 'non-glass-cannon' DPS builds still have to kill quickly, as the increased duration of a fight increases the chance that they (or one of their comrades) will make a mistake.

So (now back to 40k) by giving things the ability to delete the greatest threats to their existence before those things can impact the game meaningfully, Guilliman indirectly buffs the survivability of the units he's around.

The simplest example would be in a vacuum: A Vanquisher with MM + Lascannon vs a Predator Annihilator. Giving the Annihilator the ability to delete the Vanquisher before it fires increases its survivability in this vacuum situation far more than a 4++ would.

It's still something that you can overcome. If for any reason, the alpha fails, you can neuter the Rowboat list in fairly standard ways.

Yes, yes. I'm just reacting to the idea that Guilliman doesn't buff their durability. Not directly, certainly, but take it from someone who runs a superheavy tank army: eliminating the counter units more quickly is absolutely a buff to durability.

 Melissia wrote:
It's a combination of her durability and speed. Her synergy is actually kinda mediocre; she doesn't deep strike with seraphim, repentia just don't survive long enough to synergize with her, and we have no other assault units for her to synergize with (Seraphim aren't really an assault unit). She is a loner amongst the Sisters rather limited list of units.

Frankly Celestine should not be nerfed, though for a very different reason-- because she's literally the only named character Sisters players have, and one of only two (!!!) HQ slot choices we have.

And the other one is, at best, mediocre, being a 45 point, T3/S3/W5 model with a 3+/6++ save, that has pitiful equipment options (best melee weapon is 22 points for S6 AP-4 D3 damage at -1 to-hit, best shooting option is a combiweapon or storm bolter), no jump pack option, and only has the standard "reroll to-hit rolls of one" buff aura. Her only benefit is that she's cheap.

Acts of faith are mediocre now? Sorry no, that's amazing synergy. Acts of faith are *outstanding,* and this synergies with Ministorum, as well as Sisters, and Ministorum has some really solid stuff.

Finally - "because... Sisters!" is not a good enough reason for the total lack of balance in regards to Celestine.

Denying that she is total cheese shows your bias. I run her and have since she was pre-order in 7th, in pretty much every game, every week. I ran her last weekend, i'll run her again next weekend. She's broken.

Agreed. But it's just not as robust as hiding a distributed gunline with NO points pinatas behind a wall of conscripts. There's just no way to efficiently engage that list.

"eliminating the counter units more quickly is absolutely a buff to durability."

This has always been a debuff on marine durability in general. Their INABILITY to remove enemy firepower.

Martel732 wrote:
"eliminating the counter units more quickly is absolutely a buff to durability."

This has always been a debuff on marine durability in general. Their INABILITY to remove enemy firepower.

Which is something Guilliman (at least to some degree) addresses, and therefore (albeit indirectly) buffs their durability, as I mentioned.

I agree, as I said, but it's just not as good as raw durability.

Martel732 wrote:
I agree, as I said, but it's just not as good as raw durability.

This.

Azrael + a primaris Lieutenant is cheaper, provides the reroll to hit bubble, and you can only reroll wounds of 1. But what you get is the invulnerable save. If you're running quad las preds and twin las dreadnoughts, you're only losing 12.5% efficiency in the wound roll, but gaining insane durability.

Consider a twin-melta vs a dreadnought. 2 wounds = boom pretty much guaranteed. Meanwhile with Azrael, 2 wounds has a (1/4) chance to be 0 wounds, a (1/2) chance to be 4.5 wounds, and only a (1/4) chance for boom.

Also Azrael can ride in transports if you want.