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The Prince of Excess wrote: Huge Infantry units that can shoot or put out some ranged offense are bad for the game in its current form, Conscripts fit into that. If they get nerfed, Brimstones will be next up. You just can't have models that cheap with the removal of Templates. I'm not advocating Templates return, Infantry just need to pay a tax for it if they're shooty. I play Orks and run 180 Boyz, it can't compete with any top-tier list. Why? No guns, they have to fit in to do damage. Also they're not as cheap as some options, nor should they be.
Even if Conscripts lose Orders or something they're still broken because they're cheap and invalidate Deep Strike. When Deep Strike doesn't work gunlines are the best available army. When gunlines are the best available army the game can get very boring, very fast. Cheap models can't exist in the quantities they do now, never mind the power level. If they're removed then things can open up, until then the top tier meta is decided barring a majorly OP Codex, which I don't think anyone wants.
then what is the use of conscripts if you can't deny deep strike with them. Their whole purpose becomes worthless.
Perhaps true. But the biggest Faction in the game, Imperium, being able to deny an entire ability from the game, period, seems bad to me. I would rather have a unit be useless than live in that world. Just my opinion.
So what d you propose to fix such as it seems. Cause there is already plenty of useless Guard units now ( Most Leeman Russ variants, Veteran Squads, Chimera....)
I have to say Guilliman and Celestine are overperforming as well. Guilliman is of course here to stay forever most likely because he is in the codex now, but his ability to provide re-rolls for hitting and wounding is insane, especially when taken in conjunction with his statline. I think he should have to choose at the bare minimum whether he wants the reroll to wound or hit aura at the start of the game.
The Prince of Excess wrote: Huge Infantry units that can shoot or put out some ranged offense are bad for the game in its current form, Conscripts fit into that. If they get nerfed, Brimstones will be next up. You just can't have models that cheap with the removal of Templates. I'm not advocating Templates return, Infantry just need to pay a tax for it if they're shooty. I play Orks and run 180 Boyz, it can't compete with any top-tier list. Why? No guns, they have to fit in to do damage. Also they're not as cheap as some options, nor should they be.
Even if Conscripts lose Orders or something they're still broken because they're cheap and invalidate Deep Strike. When Deep Strike doesn't work gunlines are the best available army. When gunlines are the best available army the game can get very boring, very fast. Cheap models can't exist in the quantities they do now, never mind the power level. If they're removed then things can open up, until then the top tier meta is decided barring a majorly OP Codex, which I don't think anyone wants.
then what is the use of conscripts if you can't deny deep strike with them. Their whole purpose becomes worthless.
Perhaps true. But the biggest Faction in the game, Imperium, being able to deny an entire ability from the game, period, seems bad to me. I would rather have a unit be useless than live in that world. Just my opinion.
So what d you propose to fix such as it seems. Cause there is already plenty of useless Guard units now ( Most Leeman Russ variants, Veteran Squads, Chimera....)
Never said I had one other than fix them and the units like them. Not singling out Conscripts by any means, they're the ones in the spotlight because they're in the best Faction in the game - Imperium. IG could certainly use some positive tweaks, no reason to dumpster them. I'm on board for raising some of their under-performers up. That's usually how balance is done, ideally.
The Prince of Excess wrote: Huge Infantry units that can shoot or put out some ranged offense are bad for the game in its current form, Conscripts fit into that. If they get nerfed, Brimstones will be next up. You just can't have models that cheap with the removal of Templates. I'm not advocating Templates return, Infantry just need to pay a tax for it if they're shooty. I play Orks and run 180 Boyz, it can't compete with any top-tier list. Why? No guns, they have to fit in to do damage. Also they're not as cheap as some options, nor should they be.
Even if Conscripts lose Orders or something they're still broken because they're cheap and invalidate Deep Strike. When Deep Strike doesn't work gunlines are the best available army. When gunlines are the best available army the game can get very boring, very fast. Cheap models can't exist in the quantities they do now, never mind the power level. If they're removed then things can open up, until then the top tier meta is decided barring a majorly OP Codex, which I don't think anyone wants.
then what is the use of conscripts if you can't deny deep strike with them. Their whole purpose becomes worthless.
Perhaps true. But the biggest Faction in the game, Imperium, being able to deny an entire ability from the game, period, seems bad to me. I would rather have a unit be useless than live in that world. Just my opinion.
So what d you propose to fix such as it seems. Cause there is already plenty of useless Guard units now ( Most Leeman Russ variants, Veteran Squads, Chimera....)
Never said I had one other than fix them and the units like them. Not singling out Conscripts by any means, they're the ones in the spotlight because they're in the best Faction in the game - Imperium. IG could certainly use some positive tweaks, no reason to dumpster them. I'm on board for raising some of their under-performers up. That's usually how balance is done, ideally.
That's not a "reason that sucks". That sucks, and it's a reason.
Including the reintroduction of the Sisters Non-Miltiant as characters and our dedicated transport selection and everything we have from FW, the Sisters of Battle have a total of 16 unit choices, of which:
Spoiler:
Celestine is a named character who basically is used as a crutch by the rest of the list.
The Canoness is our only non-named HQ unit, which is pretty much pointless and only used as filler as it has very minimal offense, defense, mobility, or support capability.
Dialogous/Hospitaller/Imagifier, are lackluster support units at best, and best used as filler to get more CP.
Celestians are an overpriced close combat unit without close combat wargear, not even worth using as filler nevermind for any particular purpose.
Repentia are an even MORE overpriced power fist delivery system without armor; the sad thing is, even as bad as they are right now, they're the strongest they've ever been. And considering they're 17 points for no armor save, two attacks, and an S6 AP-2 D2 weapon (meaning, it's weaker than a marine eviscerator or even power fist), that's saying something.
Mistress of Repentance, whose only purpose is to add rerolls to Repentia charges, further adding to the cost of the already expensive Repentia.
Battle Sisters Squads are our sole troops choice and are, at best, little more than a cheap but fragile method to deliver boltguns and are outshined in every way but price by tactical marines.
Dominions are our best non-character unit, and basically the only reason we're winning games at all right now with their Vanguard move and special weapon spam, and even then it wouldn't even be spectacular were it not for Celestine tying the enemy up due to how fragile they are.
Seraphim are still half-decent, but had both of their weapons options nerfed in the transition to 8th, and with no canoness jump pack they basically only function properly with Celestine's support.
Retributors are good if only because they're the only thing worth taking in the heavy support slot; heavy bolter spam is a thing this edition for hurting MEQ, and that's about it.
Exorcists USED to be our sole long-ranged anti-tank, now it's not really even that; it got nerfed hard, they're worse than the jok that is an LRBT right now.
The Rhino, which is more expensive than the one you get.
The Immolator, a more expensive Razorback that's only made great when used by dominions.
And the Repressor, which is pretty much the third thing that's saving Sisters of Battle lists after Celestine and Dominions.
Compare that to Space Marines, who have 35 unit options in their HQ choices alone. Das rite-- even ignoring Forgeworld, Space Marines have more than twice as many HQ-slot options as Sisters have options, period.
And thats it. That's all we have. Any nerf to Celestine should only come along with an expansion of our options to replace her, along with an expansion of our options in general.
She needs a nerf and the Cannoness needs a buff. You're showing your bias.
Also nobody is against more Sisters HQ. They could use a Chaplain equivalent and Techmarine equivalent. What you're suggesting
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The Prince of Excess wrote: Huge Infantry units that can shoot or put out some ranged offense are bad for the game in its current form, Conscripts fit into that. If they get nerfed, Brimstones will be next up. You just can't have models that cheap with the removal of Templates. I'm not advocating Templates return, Infantry just need to pay a tax for it if they're shooty. I play Orks and run 180 Boyz, it can't compete with any top-tier list. Why? No guns, they have to fit in to do damage. Also they're not as cheap as some options, nor should they be.
Even if Conscripts lose Orders or something they're still broken because they're cheap and invalidate Deep Strike. When Deep Strike doesn't work gunlines are the best available army. When gunlines are the best available army the game can get very boring, very fast. Cheap models can't exist in the quantities they do now, never mind the power level. If they're removed then things can open up, until then the top tier meta is decided barring a majorly OP Codex, which I don't think anyone wants.
then what is the use of conscripts if you can't deny deep strike with them. Their whole purpose becomes worthless.
Perhaps true. But the biggest Faction in the game, Imperium, being able to deny an entire ability from the game, period, seems bad to me. I would rather have a unit be useless than live in that world. Just my opinion.
So what d you propose to fix such as it seems. Cause there is already plenty of useless Guard units now ( Most Leeman Russ variants, Veteran Squads, Chimera....)
Never said I had one other than fix them and the units like them. Not singling out Conscripts by any means, they're the ones in the spotlight because they're in the best Faction in the game - Imperium. IG could certainly use some positive tweaks, no reason to dumpster them. I'm on board for raising some of their under-performers up. That's usually how balance is done, ideally.
So what is their purpose?
Fluff I suppose. Not every unit needs a purpose. I only care about the macro balance of the game, not about how Conscripts fit into IG. I feel like you're trying to coax something out of me that doesn't exist. I don't care about Conscripts. I don't care about any unit in particular, even ones I play. I just care about slowly balancing the game. :]
That's fine, as I said it's my opinion. I think it's boring when an entire strategy in the game can be negated by the Faction which makes up half the game can spend 121 points to negate it. And always should if you're playing to win. I mean I'd do that if I played Imperium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 01:09:06
Which I never disagreed with. Read my post again. To translate it for you since apparently you need it, I said "yeah, she needs a nerf, but she shouldn't get it until we get more stuff."
tl;dr: I just disagree that we should get our cool toys taken away before we ever get a chance to get new ones. And if we're never going to get new ones, well, that's tough gak for people whining about Celestine now, ain't it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 01:22:55
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Lol that is a horrible argument; that is like the dumb GK players from last ed. saying "Dreadknights are fine! It doesn't matter they're overperforming because they're all we got!"
Quickjager wrote: Lol that is a horrible argument; that is like the dumb GK players from last ed. saying "Dreadknights are fine! It doesn't matter they're overperforming because they're all we got!"
Maybe you feel that way, but you know what? Don't care. We've played the same army lists since 3rd edition and basically the same since 2nd. No army is in even remotely a similar situation than us, even Grey Knights.
We finally move from being a bottom tier, forgettable list to one that can actually contend competitively. It's fething nice to see. If only GW actually gave us new units, I might give a damn about you feeling like this is a horrible argument. But they don't. So I don't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 01:29:37
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I was planing on doing Conscript/ Scion spam at my local ITC tournament. What If I ran regular guard squads instead of conscripts and scions without plasma and report the results to everyone?
Quickjager wrote: Lol that is a horrible argument; that is like the dumb GK players from last ed. saying "Dreadknights are fine! It doesn't matter they're overperforming because they're all we got!"
Maybe you feel that way, but you know what? Don't care. We've played the same army lists since 3rd edition and basically the same since 2nd. No army is in even remotely a similar situation than us, even Grey Knights.
We finally move from being a bottom tier, forgettable list to one that can actually contend competitively. It's fething nice to see. If only GW actually gave us new units, I might give a damn about you feeling like this is a horrible argument. But they don't. So I don't.
Just gonna get that in quotes so any argument from you in the future shows you don't "give a damn"
EDIT: Howscat, do you have any games to compare it to? Like a baseline?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 01:37:19
Quickjager wrote: Just gonna get that in quotes so any argument from you in the future shows you don't "give a damn"
You have no idea the depths of my bitterness regarding GW's treatment of Sisters of Battle as a faction. If GW actually bothers to give us an update worth talking about, with fun new options and plastic minis and things that might actually motivate me to buy a new Sisters army, I'll be glad to see Celestine nerfed. I even agreed she needs to be-- I've said several times that Celestine "is a crutch" for our army. I just think said nerf should only come when we get our codex, and not a day sooner. You're spoiled for options by comparison.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/01 01:46:00
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
That's not a "reason that sucks". That sucks, and it's a reason.
Including the reintroduction of the Sisters Non-Miltiant as characters and our dedicated transport selection and everything we have from FW, the Sisters of Battle have a total of 16 unit choices, of which:
Spoiler:
Celestine is a named character who basically is used as a crutch by the rest of the list.
The Canoness is our only non-named HQ unit, which is pretty much pointless and only used as filler as it has very minimal offense, defense, mobility, or support capability.
Dialogous/Hospitaller/Imagifier, are lackluster support units at best, and best used as filler to get more CP.
Celestians are an overpriced close combat unit without close combat wargear, not even worth using as filler nevermind for any particular purpose.
Repentia are an even MORE overpriced power fist delivery system without armor; the sad thing is, even as bad as they are right now, they're the strongest they've ever been. And considering they're 17 points for no armor save, two attacks, and an S6 AP-2 D2 weapon (meaning, it's weaker than a marine eviscerator or even power fist), that's saying something.
Mistress of Repentance, whose only purpose is to add rerolls to Repentia charges, further adding to the cost of the already expensive Repentia.
Battle Sisters Squads are our sole troops choice and are, at best, little more than a cheap but fragile method to deliver boltguns and are outshined in every way but price by tactical marines.
Dominions are our best non-character unit, and basically the only reason we're winning games at all right now with their Vanguard move and special weapon spam, and even then it wouldn't even be spectacular were it not for Celestine tying the enemy up due to how fragile they are.
Seraphim are still half-decent, but had both of their weapons options nerfed in the transition to 8th, and with no canoness jump pack they basically only function properly with Celestine's support.
Retributors are good if only because they're the only thing worth taking in the heavy support slot; heavy bolter spam is a thing this edition for hurting MEQ, and that's about it.
Exorcists USED to be our sole long-ranged anti-tank, now it's not really even that; it got nerfed hard, they're worse than the jok that is an LRBT right now.
The Rhino, which is more expensive than the one you get.
The Immolator, a more expensive Razorback that's only made great when used by dominions.
And the Repressor, which is pretty much the third thing that's saving Sisters of Battle lists after Celestine and Dominions.
Compare that to Space Marines, who have 35 unit options in their HQ choices alone. Das rite-- even ignoring Forgeworld, Space Marines have more than twice as many HQ-slot options as Sisters have options, period.
And thats it. That's all we have. Any nerf to Celestine should only come along with an expansion of our options to replace her, along with an expansion of our options in general.
It's almost as if having 1 Super Faction known as Imperium is an incredibly stupid idea for balance purposes.
Would be 99% fine if Celestine is broken OP if only Sisters were allowed to take her.
but when basically half the game can take her...
After seeing the lists and watching the livestreams. I really couldn't see any reason for the 31+ PL limitations. Am I terribly mistaken? I haven't seen this limitation being put on the NOVA open as of yet. IG seemed very strong as well.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Yea, matched play wise Keyword army joining is a bad idea.
Depends who you are. My Custodes, Inquisition and I'm betting Sisters of Silence would basically be impossible if we couldn't take units from other Imperium armies.
Gamgee wrote: Tau are totally good and fine though right Reece. Right guys? Clearly "everything" is good according to Reece.
Anyways now that this is over and surprise (not) that basically we all knew what would be the best stuff and what isn't can we finally get down to brass tacks and start balancing via faq's?
I don't want to wait a year for books for every army. The game is already 10x more boring than 7th ed because of how predictable it is and all I needed to do was some mathhammer and play two games to know this.
Tau had a placing in the top 10, more than many other armies, not seeing where the issue is here. We dont even see Orks, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Sisters, Grey Knights, Necrons, etc appear in this list. The only real big issue apparent in these lists is flyers and conscripts.
This is the exact problem I have with this win. Oh because Commanders are so good we can't look at rebalancing the Tau so they don't need to rely on bringing commanders which are unfluffy. It's as unfair as the old flyrant spam lists and people using them to justify the nids as balanced. Granted I don't think we're as bad as nids in 7th. Still it is incredibly boring spamming commanders and very unfluffy. I would like to see our other anti-tank options actually made worth while instead. If commanders are nerfed and nothing else is brought up it's going to kill Tau viability. Not to mention commanders are terrible at commanding Tau armies with almost pointless buffs if the commanders are brought up in points then they also need to get a lot better at offering buffs to still make them a viable choice as HQ. Then when they are not able to be spammed we can look into buffing other stuff up to do what the CMDers are doing in the current meta. I also think that whatever units are buffed up to take the CMDer don't have to be made as strong as commanders are now. Especially if conscripts and gulliman get nerfs to accompany them. I think this would be more than fair.
However I suspect we'll just see another round of nerfs across the board regardless of any facts, evidence, or discussions being had.
I agree as well. I've already seen people saying 'Tau are fine, whiners gonna whine' (luckly not many here) while mrhappyface's thread on accumulated games shows us that Tau isn't fine at all (mostly because of its horrendous internal balance).
I don't want to play zounds of Commanders and some pinch of infantry! As I'm certain AM folks don't want to field Conscripts and Scion teams ad infinitum. Or Imperium armies always fielding Guilliman and Celestine.
I'm glad Tau codex wasn't in the first batch and I hope at least another 2-3 FAQs will show up before they send the codex to the presses.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Yea, matched play wise Keyword army joining is a bad idea.
Depends who you are. My Custodes, Inquisition and I'm betting Sisters of Silence would basically be impossible if we couldn't take units from other Imperium armies.
That's partly a problem imo that Im still trying to figure out. Could those faction just be rolled into another existing or each other. I could see SoS and Custodies combined, as well Inquisition being added as special rules for Guard and Marines, even Sisters (but then again GW doesn't give SoB really much to begin with).
niv-mizzet wrote: That's just what I'm getting from between the lines on your posts. Maybe you just have a writing style that uses very strong phrasing while being entirely calm, I don't know, but if that's not the case, you may want to look at if your health and well-being might be suffering.
Amusingly, no one notices the positive posts I make, even though they outnumber the bitter ones. Sure, I'm bitter about GW's treatment of Sisters. Have been for well over ten years. But I actually like 8th edition and the various changes made in it. Hell, it inspired me to start that BA terminator army idea I came up with during 7th. Still need to finish assembling the last squad actually...
This is getting way too off topic at this point.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Howscat wrote: I was planing on doing Conscript/ Scion spam at my local ITC tournament. What If I ran regular guard squads instead of conscripts and scions without plasma and report the results to everyone?
Regular guard can almost do the same shooting as conscripts, per point. When I did some mathhammer I found that 33 guards with two company commanders got the same number of hits as 50 conscripts and 1 platoon commander, in double tap range. So that's 170 points versus 192 points. And for that extra 22 points you have to try and stuff all 50 into 12" range of your target, which is hilarious.
So the deal is really that conscripts get 17 extra wounds for the same price. That's really the only deal with conscripts versus guardsman. Is that too many? I don't really know, I haven't played against them or with them. But for a unit with flashlights and flak armor, people sure to be getting awfully worked up. I think some folks here would be engaging in manly (or womanly as the case may be) fisticuffs at this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 03:09:48
NenkotaMoon wrote: Yea, matched play wise Keyword army joining is a bad idea.
Depends who you are. My Custodes, Inquisition and I'm betting Sisters of Silence would basically be impossible if we couldn't take units from other Imperium armies.
Making Sisters of Silence their own thing rather than being part of a Sororitas release was a ridiculous mistake. Honestly all of these Imperium "mini-factions" that aren't intended to function as their own army are a big batch of mistakes.
I'm not to worried about things being slightly OP. However excessive outliers like a single army that has two units in over half the top 10 in major tournaments and regularly in most other major tournaments is a major outlier.
Right now gw should focus on conscript spam and plasma spam as the most egregious problems. (Maybe fw should look at basilisk carriages separately). The fact they were predominately in 5 of the top 10 is a huge red flag. Everything else was at most in only 1-2 lists tops even if they are slightly undercosted.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Yea, matched play wise Keyword army joining is a bad idea.
I think the idea is that as more Codexes are released this won't be as much of an issue. When your opponent is able to spend 2 CP to hit your minis with a hammer because they're playing the Hammer Hitters subfaction and you're stuck with just rerolls and countercharges, things should even out even if you're taking something from every list. Hopefully that will be the case. Power creep for everyone!
Right now, though, in the world of Indexes there is basically no downside to combining every list because you lose out on nothing (unless you're a vanilla Marine player). You should absolutely be running Typhus and Kharn with poxwalkers and Berzerkers, etc, until your faction's book comes out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 04:10:19