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Hey...wasn't sure if this was general or rules. I think it's general...because the problem is...there aren't any rules.

So I played 40k 3rd and 6th a lot. In my.collection I have about 4 or 5 looted vehicles . I love them. Nothing says ork like a leman Russ sprayed yellow with a wacky zzap gun sticking out of the top of it.

Now I know the 7th ed ork.dex had no looted wagons so they got rules in an issue of WD. The WD issue did say that you can use the rules or use your looted wagons as "counts as battlewagons"

This was however a 7th ed entry so it's completely void now.

Then I got my 8th ed index. Really happy with my new ork rules and enjoying playing 40k again. But alas ... The wagon did not make.its triumphant return.

My questions are...

Looted wagons! Where have they gone? Why have they gone?! And what the hell should I do with mine? Does the old statement about using them as battlewagons still hold true? Do we think they may be back whenever orks get their own dex?

No idea on any of these, unfortunately. For now, I'd ask your opponent if they're okay with being the same as the regular version (same points and everything), except gaining the keywork "Ork" and Ballistic Skill becoming 5+.

GW have said to just use them to represent other ork models, like battlewagons, battlewagons with supa kannons, big trakks with any of the loadouts, etc. Not the best answer, but big trakks gives you lots of options that can represent just about anything, and supa kannons actually have enough shots that you will probably hit at least once or twice each time you shoot it.

The problem with using them to represent their regular non -ork version is how do you cost that? What does changing the BS to 5+ reduce the cost by? Does it get to keep faction specific special rules(if I loot a necron vehicle with quantum shielding does it keep it? if not how much does that adjust cost, etc. Its really a non starter except in the most friendly of best buds gaming to forge a narrative kind of setting.

As is well known at this point, due to the Chapter House lawsuits, Games Workshop has adopted a STRICT No Model, No Rules policy when it comes to their rulebooks now, going so far as to remove the options for Dreadnoughts and certain Characters on Bikes because they don't make a model for them and relied on players converting and kitbashing in the past.

I would eat my own hat if GW made any rules for a "looted wagon" again in 8th without making a specific model kit called "Looted Wagon"

For now I think both the official and unofficial line is to use them as Counts-As whatever the closest matching vehicle is, be they Battlewagons, Wartraks or Trukks. For Leman Russ I would say Battlewagon with 'ard case and Killkannon to be the closest counts as, with Chimeras and Rhinos being Trukks or Wartrakks/Warbuggys/Scorchas as needed.

For the time being you have no other legal option than use either the Battlewagons rules or something from the FW index list. Depending on the size of the model, you could also use it as a Trukk, Wartrakk, Skorcha or Warbuggy. Whether the new codex will provide rules for the Looted Wagon is impossible to sa for now, since GW is inconsistent about the "no model, no rules" issue, contrary to claims otherwise.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
As is well known at this point, due to the Chapter House lawsuits, Games Workshop has adopted a STRICT No Model, No Rules policy

But this is just not true, as - ironically - proven by the Ork index list. It provides datasheets for "Warboss in Mega Armour", "Warboss on Warbike", "Big Mek on Warbike" and "Painboy on Warbike" - none of which have a current model, or ever had one that I am aware of. I'm not even sure that the last two were an option at all (haven't played during 6th/7th edition), but there are not even proper conversion options around anyway.*

The point is: none of these units have a model on sale from GW, yet they have rules now. The Looted Wagon has been around since 2nd edition, yet has no rules now. Make of that what you will, there is no consistent position from GW on it though.

On a side note: "Nobz on Warbikes" are in a funny position. They were a thing as far back as 2nd edition, and were quite popular during 4th or 5th edition (mostly due to rules schenanigans). But technically there is no kit for them. Yes, the Warbike kit comes with parts for a Nob - but only for one model. The Nobz kit on the other hand is incompatible with the Warbikes insofar as the Nob bodies do not fit on the bikes. You have to either use Nob arms on undersized bodies, or hunt for other bits (one source being the regular Orkboyz kit). GW would have been rightfully shitstormed for removing the Nobbiker option - but properly converting them is far from trivial.



* ... Of course you could use certain parts from the Nobz and/or Meganobz kit, but I'd hardly call that "proper".

 Yarium wrote:
same points and everything, except gaining the keywork "Ork" and Ballistic Skill becoming 5+.

That's kinda like our current rules are written anywayz.

 Darnok wrote:
On a side note: "Nobz on Warbikes" are in a funny position. They were a thing as far back as 2nd edition, and were quite popular during 4th or 5th edition (mostly due to rules schenanigans). But technically there is no kit for them. Yes, the Warbike kit comes with parts for a Nob - but only for one model. The Nobz kit on the other hand is incompatible with the Warbikes insofar as the Nob bodies do not fit on the bikes. You have to either use Nob arms on undersized bodies, or hunt for other bits (one source being the regular Orkboyz kit). GW would have been rightfully shitstormed for removing the Nobbiker option - but properly converting them is far from trivial.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-EU/Ork-Nob-Warbikes

AFAIK Forgeworld models are considered 1st party models and "official" in that regard.

 Weazel wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
On a side note: "Nobz on Warbikes" are in a funny position. They were a thing as far back as 2nd edition, and were quite popular during 4th or 5th edition (mostly due to rules schenanigans). But technically there is no kit for them. Yes, the Warbike kit comes with parts for a Nob - but only for one model. The Nobz kit on the other hand is incompatible with the Warbikes insofar as the Nob bodies do not fit on the bikes. You have to either use Nob arms on undersized bodies, or hunt for other bits (one source being the regular Orkboyz kit). GW would have been rightfully shitstormed for removing the Nobbiker option - but properly converting them is far from trivial.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-EU/Ork-Nob-Warbikes

AFAIK Forgeworld models are considered 1st party models and "official" in that regard.

Not true, otherwise the dreadnought autocannon arms would have been included in the SM codex. https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-JP/MKV%20Dreadnought%20Autocannon%20(Right%20Arm)

Looks like Nob Bikers are in for the chop without our Spiritual Liege deciding to make an official kit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
On a side note: "Nobz on Warbikes" are in a funny position. They were a thing as far back as 2nd edition, and were quite popular during 4th or 5th edition (mostly due to rules schenanigans). But technically there is no kit for them. Yes, the Warbike kit comes with parts for a Nob - but only for one model. The Nobz kit on the other hand is incompatible with the Warbikes insofar as the Nob bodies do not fit on the bikes. You have to either use Nob arms on undersized bodies, or hunt for other bits (one source being the regular Orkboyz kit). GW would have been rightfully shitstormed for removing the Nobbiker option - but properly converting them is far from trivial.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-EU/Ork-Nob-Warbikes

AFAIK Forgeworld models are considered 1st party models and "official" in that regard.

Not true, otherwise the dreadnought autocannon arms would have been included in the SM codex. https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-JP/MKV%20Dreadnought%20Autocannon%20(Right%20Arm)

Looks like Nob Bikers are in for the chop without our Spiritual Liege deciding to make an official kit.

Well funnily enough Razorbacks can still include Assault Cannons which are not included in the kit. So consider your counter-argument countered.

I don't believe Nob bikers are going anywhere. However Painboys or Big Meks on bikes are possibly going to be left out of the Codex.

I like the idea of Looted wagons but I understand why they are not included any more. But just use them as Bigtrakks or similar. A looted basilisk would work wonderfully as a Bigtrakk with a supacannon for example. Or a looted Russ would work as a Bigtrakk with Killkannon.

The FW Xenos index provides a range of rules that I use in combination with the normal ork vehicle rules to represent looted vehicles.

For a Leman Russ, I would recommend going for either a Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon, or for a slightly lighter version a Big Trakk with Killkannon, which is what I've been using for my looted SM Vindicator.

I actually prefer the Big Trakk as a general Looted Wagon profile to the old "it's a rhino with a few options" version.

Lots of brilliant responses. Thanks.

I like the idea of the FW trakk rules for my 3 looted rhinos and probably battlewagon for my leman Russ. I'm sure most opponents with be cool with it. Especially where weapon placement on.the hull of the vehicle itself doesn't matter.

The whole no model no rules thing is so odd in that it's not always followed.

Nob bikers get a fw model sure... Not ideal.but it is 1st party so it does count
But I saw on YT the new grey nights chap in dredd armour will get rules in the dex and WD are gonna release a guide on how to convert him.

Meanwhile according to the SM dex, the big boss of the white scars has got to foot slog because they never made a bike model.

If every model has rules I want some rules for the super goofy Goff rockers still on sale from 2nd edition

It's considerably easier to hide a Leman Russ out of LOS than it is a Battlewagon. Meaning that if you're running the Looted Leman Russ as a transport with 20 boyz inside I might have a few objections myself. Big Trakk is probably safer since they are more similarly sized.

Just something to consider.

The Forgeworld book has a unit listing for Big Trakk, it has a lot of weapon options, I would say to use this as your looted tank profile. It just about covers everything a looted wagon would be