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 daedalus wrote:

Movement is in the movement phase, or when you consolidate. Not when wounds are allocated. You could fill blank spots later, but GW decided to handle it different.

Eh. Abstraction and hand-waving. I don't see a significant difference in that and just saying "well, that guy in the back jumped on the mounted gun to replace the guy you shot off it, like in movies!"

And really, the alternative to this was 7th's thing where the guy with the missile launcher died, and the other four guys in the squad who are standing right next to him look at the missile launcher sitting there, saying, "I'm an elite super strong Space Marine, but the Codex Astartes clearly says that a tactical squad was only supposed to have ONE heavy weapon space marine in it. We could REALLY use someone manning that missile launcher, but I don't want to get in trouble!"

How's that for your realism?

FWIW, GWs business model seems to be power creep. That's how they get you to buy new box and new units.

I highly doubt 8th is going to break away from this model, because it's a model that works and keeps veteran players buying new stuff.

IMO it isn't any better then 7th. It mostly trades flavor for balance. Every thing it 8th is really samey which makes it easier to balance, though it still isn't, my main problem with 8th is that it is really bland, and the core rules are not anymore inherently balanced then 7th, so they could have made a better game by spending their efforts rebalancing all the 7th edition codexes which were the problem with 7th. Instead they scraped everything to release a flawed rule set were the only real difference between units is weather or not 'they can fly'.

In response to the original question: 8th edition I spend more time playing the game and less time looking up layer after layer of rules. It's nice.

As i personally whitnessed GW slaughter the living gak out of Fantasy, i was VERY skeptic about 8th because Sigmar just plain sucks. But i must admit 8th is very great, and their stance towards it (solid FAQ and clarifications) looks VERY promising.

Assault phase is still too weak for non horde armies :( But overall 8/10 from me, best edition since i started in 5th edition. A plesant surprise

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
IMO it isn't any better then 7th. It mostly trades flavor for balance. Every thing it 8th is really samey which makes it easier to balance, though it still isn't, my main problem with 8th is that it is really bland, and the core rules are not anymore inherently balanced then 7th, so they could have made a better game by spending their efforts rebalancing all the 7th edition codexes which were the problem with 7th. Instead they scraped everything to release a flawed rule set were the only real difference between units is weather or not 'they can fly'.

The core rules are more balanced than 7th. The core rules in 7th made all MCs inherently superior to vehicles, and all super heavies inherently superior to non-superheavies. The Core rules in 7th included the psychic phase which did not function unless both players brought roughly the same number of psykers. The core rules in 7th included the mechanics that allowed for tanking characters and battle brother ally synergy. The core rules in 7th also included the broken BRB psychic powers. That is not to say they could not have stayed closer in still balanced things, however, without a huge rewrite they would have had issues with porting the 7th ed codices still functioning in the game, so unless they still replaced all those rules with the bland indices to start the edition nothing would have been fixed as far as rebalancing the codices, and any rules changes would need to have been considered in the context of the existing codex rules and their functionality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said in response to the OP, if 7th works for your group (and it can in a small closed non-competitive group) I would stay there unless your group desires to adopt the new rules and models as they are released. Especially if it isn't your main game.

 jasper76 wrote:
FWIW, GWs business model seems to be power creep. That's how they get you to buy new box and new units.

I highly doubt 8th is going to break away from this model, because it's a model that works and keeps veteran players buying new stuff.

It does not only seem to be, it simply is. I quit buying rulebooks after 5th. Do I still play 40K? Occasionally oldhammer. And now to your verdict...

Crimes:
- Refuses to buy the latest versions of 40K.
- Refuses to buy the new and shiny 40K Stormcasts.
- Has the guts to say so in a public forum.
- Badmouthes as a whole GW´s business model.

Verdict:
GW goon squad dispatched to your home. They will burn your copies of your outdated 40K rulebooks while you are watching and force you to join the happy 8th crowd. Resistance is futile.

 jasper76 wrote:
FWIW, GWs business model seems to be power creep. That's how they get you to buy new box and new units.

I highly doubt 8th is going to break away from this model, because it's a model that works and keeps veteran players buying new stuff.

This is pretty much true. The only other thing than powercreep that can generate sales, is when they reset the mess every decade or so with a clean slate edition. We are in the early beginning of the creep cycle.

I'm not sure I ever buy GW having a codex creep as a business model for sales. If that were true:

- new models/units would always be OP to sell more they aren't. As often as not they are complete garbage.

- new codices would always be better than the previous codex, they aren't.

- power creep would need to be the best method of sales, it isn't

They would do much better with a reasonably balanced game where they release cool new models for all factions, and they tweak styles of play for various armies. In fact as often as not their codices are likely to reduce model sales, because if that cool looking expensive model sucks on the table, many people will skip buying it. Moreso than people buying the new shiny for armies they don't play. Super competitive folk that really care about creep are a minority in this game, GW would sell more models if all units were solid, than they every will by making some new models crap and some OP.

The only thing I would be willing to credit GW with is skewing the game towards particular classes of models, and I'm not even sure this is intentional.

5th was vehicles
6th-7th was big MCs\model kits
8th thus far seems to be flyers/cheap infantry

If other than that for a long time GWs sales model seemed to be "increase the scale of the game" so that the same point size allowed for more units. 8th has moved away from that.

Breng77 wrote:
The Core rules in 7th included the psychic phase which did not function unless both players brought roughly the same number of psykers.

The real issues with 7e Psy were "all or nothing" success thresholds for casting and denial, the system favoring batteries funneling Warp Charge into a few supercasters due to slow WC returns combined with a "single pool", and emphasis on summoning and blessings over the others (since they were harder to deny). With 8th, Psychic Focus means if you want to do something besides spam Smite, you want the best caster possible to ensure you succeed in the first place. For Chaos, Magnus is even more of an autoinclude than in 7th.

Breng77 wrote:
The core rules in 7th included the mechanics that allowed for tanking characters and battle brother ally synergy.

And 8th means said characters cannot even be targeted until you kill *every* model that is closer. We have Daemons and Magnus lists, and Conscriptspam Imperial Superfriends nowadays, the main difference being Space Wolves are playing second fiddle to Bobby G and Celestine.

Breng77 wrote:

However, without a huge rewrite they would have had issues with porting the 7th ed codices still functioning in the game.

The fixes could be more gradual. Make Grav Stun on 6s instead of Immobilize, replace Instant death/Eternal Warrior/vehicle explodes/etc with "do an extra d3 wounds/HP" and give vehicles +2 HP and you're clean there. Add a "rule of 3" that says an Invulnerable Save cannot be "improved" to better than 3++, and pare down charts.

Consolidate "special rules." Bombing runs, skyslash attacks, vector strikes, Swooping hawk Intercepts, etc, should have just been a generic "fly-by attack." Change rules so you know what they do just by looking at their name. Things like When(charging): +1 Strength, instead of Furious Charge, and clear out rules that sound similar but do different things. ("Aren't all Crusaders Zealots?" "Technically the Zealots were a *Jewish* uprising..."), and iteratively pare down, rather than creating a messy keyword system where 5 Deathwatch and 1 Terminator take up 12 transport slots!

I didnt say i dont like 8th. Its faster and smoother, which is good, but i would like it better if some realism and sense would have stayed from 7th.

GW really doesn't do that. They want a degree of longevity in their customers' collecting habits and that's better served with iterative updates over editions. The Stormcast in AoS and the Primaris Marines just seem that way they released the 'starter set' models first.

If you want to see power creep as a business model, you can compare to FFG's X-Wing, with every new ship coming with a new and exciting upgrade that would actually work really well with a ship you already have and shifts the meta around insanely.

Even GW's most egregious examples (like the sky hammer annihilation force) came packaged with models you'd be able to use in that formation.

It's infinitely more playable than 7th, and somehow infinitely more boring as well. I wouldn't go back to 7th myself, but also I'm already tired of 8th. If your group is good with 7th, knows the rules and gets along, you're not missing much aside from a different meta and primaris marines everywhere.

dosiere wrote:
you're not missing much aside from a different meta and primaris marines everywhere.

I don't even like the idea of Primaries Marines. I already have bigger space marines on Terminator bases called Terminators (haven't kept up with the fluff though)

At least you're not having to put up with the ridiculous "OH EM GEE PARIMIS MARNIES AER GONAN REPALCE SPESH MRAINES!" fearmongering.

 Melissia wrote:
At least you're not having to put up with the ridiculous "OH EM GEE PARIMIS MARNIES AER GONAN REPALCE SPESH MRAINES!" fearmongering.

It's not fear-mongering if it's true.

That's what people said when there was a wave of panic over the world possibly ending at the start of the year 2000.

You're the same as them.

 Melissia wrote:
At least you're not having to put up with the ridiculous "OH EM GEE PARIMIS MARNIES AER GONAN REPALCE SPESH MRAINES!" fearmongering.

I'm seeing the extreme opposite. "Oh, you're looking at marines? Have you heard about the Primaris Marines? See a lot of people think they're just bigger marines but really..." "Oh, you're familiar. Well, it's what everyone's playing nowadays. They look really co..." "Oh, you just want the box of chibi marines. Okay :("

I know the guy was just a little too excited, but I am solidly the opposite.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's not fear-mongering if it's true.

If regular space marines go away, everyone's space marines become primaris. Nothing changes any more than me pointing at my mordians and saying they're "Cadian" for the purposes of putting Pask in a tank or "Catachan" for the purposes of me taking Harker.

It's precisely fear mongering.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
At least you're not having to put up with the ridiculous "OH EM GEE PARIMIS MARNIES AER GONAN REPALCE SPESH MRAINES!" fearmongering.

It's not fear-mongering if it's true.

Amen to that, brother. Artwork already focuses strongly on Uber-Marines in the new SM codex. When 9th hit the stores, none other than those 40K Stormcasts will be shown in the illustrations.

 jasper76 wrote:
FWIW, GWs business model seems to be power creep. That's how they get you to buy new box and new units.

I highly doubt 8th is going to break away from this model, because it's a model that works and keeps veteran players buying new stuff.

I got the impression that most people though the Primaris releases were a bit worse (Intercessors) or a bit sideways (Primaris Dread) from normal Marines. Seems odd that a company who relies on power creep to sell would make their big new fluff altering flagship models not that much better than the models that already existed.

And here come the Y2K enthusiasts.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
At least you're not having to put up with the ridiculous "OH EM GEE PARIMIS MARNIES AER GONAN REPALCE SPESH MRAINES!" fearmongering.

It's not fear-mongering if it's true.

Amen to that, brother. Artwork already focuses strongly on Uber-Marines in the new SM codex. When 9th hit the stores, none other than those 40K Stormcasts will be shown in the illustrations.

Yeah, it's not like putting the new product you've just invested a bundle of cash in front and centre in the promotional material is about as elementary a marketing concept as its possible to fething get or anything.

 Mr Morden wrote:
7th was truly without merit

8th is better but sadly seems to be slipping back into bad habits like Codex power creep and multiple books required for armies.

Where is 8th beginning to slip with recent releases, the space marines seems quite balanced in my oppinion? Also They recently released FAQ outright balanceing some of the bullcrap the tournament players are fielding.

I love how we've got power creep from one Codex release and a bunch of sticking plaster "get you by" books.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
At least you're not having to put up with the ridiculous "OH EM GEE PARIMIS MARNIES AER GONAN REPALCE SPESH MRAINES!" fearmongering.

It's not fear-mongering if it's true.

Amen to that, brother. Artwork already focuses strongly on Uber-Marines in the new SM codex. When 9th hit the stores, none other than those 40K Stormcasts will be shown in the illustrations.

Yeah, it's not like putting the new product you've just invested a bundle of cash in front and centre in the promotional material is about as elementary a marketing concept as its possible to fething get or anything.

It just reinforces the idea that hobbyists should recollect their entire SM range. Stupid move GW, stupid move.

Not for GW.

No, it just reinforces the idea that "You have all these great marines, why not have some Primaris reinforcements, too?"

The idea that they're replacing regular marines is not pushed by GW. It's pushed by fearmongering paranoiacs.

 Melissia wrote:
No, it just reinforces the idea that "You have all these great marines, why not have some Primaris reinforcements, too?"

The idea that they're replacing regular marines is not pushed by GW. It's pushed by fearmongering paranoiacs.

You must have belonged to the crowd that vehemently refused the notion of the Old World´s destruction. You are so naive.

While you're so convinced that you're correct you're coming across as a little smug and undermining any credibility your perspective may otherwise carry.

You may be right, in fact in the long term I'm sure you are, but to try and make it sound like some sort of imminent threat is almost certainly wrong and decidedly hyperbolic.

Where do you honestly think your collection of marines is going to go?