Is GW mental or are we.

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**Dakka Wolf**

ERJAK wrote:
Ratius wrote:
This game isn't intended to be competitively balanced, it's intended to be sales driven balanced.

This basically. Sales > rules.

Which breaks down the EXACT moment you realize that A) all the fancy new primaris kits that are coming are largely worse than the older equivalents people already have a million of despite having 2 chances to get it right and B) How, exactly does a 25 point powerclaw make money? Is it something like 1. 25pt powerclaw 2. ??? 3.??? 4. Profit?

Hate it however you want but the 'it's sales guh hurk a dur' thing has never made any sense. At no point in the history of warhammer has GW understood their own rules well enough to make something good on purpose without breaking the game or bad on purpose without tanking that unit's sales.

The problem might be that an undercosted Powerclaw doesn't make money either. Usually having a kit without enough of the better weapons means more sales of the kit.
I don't know about the Ork players where you live but most of the ones I've met can and will make Powerclaws out of the sprue itself.
I've wondered on a few occassions if the longstanding encouragement in White Dwarf for Ork modelling isn't the reason the Orks get screwed at the codex level.
It's possible I'm giving GW too much credit for understanding their customers but they do have the occassional nugget of gold rather than gak.

**SemperMortis**

Eligius wrote:
You also have to take into account the most likely users of these weapons.

Power fists are generaly taken by Sergeants and Terminators who have 2 attacks each and Str 4.

Power Claws are taken by Nobs who have 3 attacks each and Str 5.

Hence the discrepancy in points between the Power Fist and the Power Claw.

That is sound logic, but it doesn't apply anywhere else in the Codex or Index.

Take for example Lootas as has been previously used. 17pts for a BS2 model that carries a D3 shot Autocannon. Now compare that to a IG Heavy weapons team, they pay 19pts for a 2wound model that has BS3, 2 wounds and a 5+ save. So while it does have less toughness it more then makes up for that with 2wounds and a better save.

So does better BS, better armor, better wounds = 2pts in your book? Keeping in mind that this also doesn't even talk to the fact that IG have access to orders and other buffs that directly benefit there shooting compared to Orkz who have nothing that benefits shooting.

**koooaei**

I'd reserve my judgement till the codex drops. Not only for power klaws but also for 2/3 of the units that are 20-30% overpriced like all the buggies, koptas, all the walkers, stompa, burnas, lootas, mek gunz, flash gitz, planes...all the shooty options all in all. Cause currently only boyz, stormboyz and half the characters are priced somewhat correctly. Well, maybe kommandoes depending on how you look at it.

**Blackie**

Lootas auto takes? Terminators too squishy?

Lootas wouldn't be auto takes even with the previous cost of 14 points per model, and terminators wouldn't be that bad even with a single wound per model.

Imperium players need to try some games using orks, really. Maybe even GW should try orks for once at least

**Jidmah**

Eligius wrote:
You also have to take into account the most likely users of these weapons.

Power fists are generaly taken by Sergeants and Terminators who have 2 attacks each and Str 4.

Power Claws are taken by Nobs who have 3 attacks each and Str 5.

Hence the discrepancy in points between the Power Fist and the Power Claw.

Not quite true. Killsaws can be take on both regular orks with 2 Attacks and S4 as well as on nob-like models with 3 attacks and S5. It costs 28 points for either of them.

**Pskotti**

Talamare wrote:
Don't try to find logic within the mechanics

This game isn't intended to be competitively balanced, it's intended to be sales driven balanced.

What you should have said is

"The game isn't designed for competitive balance, but for a competitive balance-sheet."

**chromedog**

As has been said, I don't think bipolar means what you think it does.
That's more acute multiple personality disorder than bipolar.

As to whether it's crazy, or the consumers are ...

... Little of column 'A', little of column 'B'.

But it's (the cycle) going to continue while you keep feeding it, like a snake swallowing its tail.

**Pancakey**

Talamare wrote:
Don't try to find logic within the mechanics

This game isn't intended to be competitively balanced, it's intended to be sales driven balanced.

As soon as you embrace this, everything makes sense.

Flyers were not "broken" at launch, GW wanted to sell them. (And it worked!) The "fix" came after flyer sales peaked. This is the same MO that got us the formation gravy of datasheets from a thousand locations required to navigate 7th edition. You can bet the game will devolve into another "unbalanced mess". You already need two books to play space marines!

**jeff white**

Demantiae wrote:
I don't think GW is bipolar, I'm pretty sure they're schizophrenic. At times you can't tell which one of them is talking to you. Is it the GW that insists on removing units from codexes because they don't have a model? Or is it GW who create an entirely new unit without a model and then tells you how to convert it in their flagship magazine? One of them is crazy but which one? Perhaps it's the third GW th other two don't know about yet?

They're never consistent. Even when they promise to be better and to try and get things right, they're not consistent. You can see from how they behave and how they deal with the community that they are too fractured internally, that none of them knows what's going on. They issue rules that don't work in relation to other rules in the game and they don't know how half the rules even work. It's like they delegate certain nuggets of rules to different people but they don't fill them in on what the other guys are doing. One guy writes the rules for how weapons operate but they guy writing the rules for how the Black Legion works hasn't read those rules and misunderstands how the game plays.

Hence the ad for a rules writer. I don't think they're looking for somebody to come up with cool and interesting mechanics or new idea's for 40k, I think they're looking for somebody who actually understands their rules, how the game is really played (not how they play it after hours with their weird house rules and gentleman's codes) and most importantly how things interact together, how one change impacts another etc ect. They clearly can't their heads around this. GW is full of idea's men, people with great idea's, but they' don't really get how to build their rules properly. Sure changing morale to battleshock sounds like a great idea to speed up the game and spice things up, but when you dissociate characters from units and need rules to stop them being one-shotted turn 1 every time, well now your rules to protect characters interfere with your rules to morale when you can't get rid of Commissars and feckin Conscripts are more unmoveable than Space Marines. And that's not to mention how small units are less affected by morale now than large units, when anyone with a basic understanding of psychology and/or military training will tell you that large bodies of soldiers will always have a higher morale than smaller ones. They just threw battleshock in as a mechanic and didn't study the ramifications of it. It should have been added in ON TOP of traditional fleeing off the table morale, as a special feature of some units. Commissars should be stopping Conscripts from RUNNING AWAY, not dying in combat. Being stuck in combat by that psycho Commissar who's gonna shoto them if they run, that should be triggering the battleshock effect they SHOULD be subjected too for being stuck in combat against a vastly superior opponent. But because they removed running away they've left with only one part of what would have been a great morale phase system. And thus Conscripts are super strong (unless you're WE and then you laugh your ass off at them).

Yeah, GW really needs to get on this. They're stating intent to want to make 40k great again, but they're struggling to follow through with it in their haste to get everything out RIGHT NOW. They really should have put the codexes on simmer until next year, sorted out the niggles in 8th ed first, issued a 1.5 version of the rules around xmas and then got to work putting out codexes. They could have used the time up till xmas putting out models and rules for them on par with the indexes.

8th is still in the playtest stage and it needs some tweaks still. But which one of GW's faces do you tell that to?

Smartest thing I have read all day,
and I spend most of my day reading AI journals, cog sci journals and zerohedge.
Nailed it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pancakey wrote:
Talamare wrote:
Don't try to find logic within the mechanics

This game isn't intended to be competitively balanced, it's intended to be sales driven balanced.

As soon as you embrace this, everything makes sense.

Flyers were not "broken" at launch, GW wanted to sell them. (And it worked!) The "fix" came after flyer sales peaked. This is the same MO that got us the formation gravy of datasheets from a thousand locations required to navigate 7th edition. You can bet the game will devolve into another "unbalanced mess". You already need two books to play space marines!

Second smartest thing I read all day.

**bhollenb**

I don't know about GW but nearly all you people on Dakka are ******* nuts.

#sarcasmnotsarcasm

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

koooaei wrote:
I'd reserve my judgement till the codex drops. Not only for power klaws but also for 2/3 of the units that are 20-30% overpriced like all the buggies, koptas, all the walkers, stompa, burnas, lootas, mek gunz, flash gitz, planes...all the shooty options all in all. Cause currently only boyz, stormboyz and half the characters are priced somewhat correctly. Well, maybe kommandoes depending on how you look at it.

Yep, I figure they'll adjust the points of a lot of things and also there might be a number of stratagems, warlord traits and clan-specific stuff to make a big difference to many units that don't seem that great now.

I think it does make sense that power klawz would cost more than power fists, considering that most of the orks that can take them have a high strength and high number of attacks. I do think that they should still drop the price on them a bit, barring some unforeseen changes in the codex. A cheap version of the Killsaw that Mekboyz, Spanner Boyz and Deffkoptas can take would also be appreciated.

I don't necessarily agree that orks should pay more for shooting, especially since allies have become a thing. It seems like the majority of shooty ork units aren't that great for the points cost, but I could see them having stratagems and clan-specific abilities that make them a lot better. So, maybe Lootas or Flash Gitz aren't that great in a Goff or Snakebite army, but if they are taken in an allied detachment of Death Skulls or Bad Moons they're pretty dang good. That would be a pretty fluffy way to make ork shooty units better, and I have a feeling we'll see something like that with the codex.

**TheNewBlood**

25 points sounds about right for a high-AP weapon that wounds every vehicle in the game on a 3+ and T5 and below on a 2+ equipped to a model with 3 base attacks that hit on a 4+ (and has easy access to more attacks).

Lootas are expensive because they give Orks something they otherwise lack: S7 volume of fire at a decent range. If you are finding them to be lacking in durability, consider mounting them in a Open-Topped transport.

**Blackie**

TheNewBlood wrote:
25 points sounds about right for a high-AP weapon that wounds every vehicle in the game on a 3+ and T5 and below on a 2+ equipped to a model with 3 base attacks that hit on a 4+ (and has easy access to more attacks).

Lootas are expensive because they give Orks something they otherwise lack: S7 volume of fire at a decent range. If you are finding them to be lacking in durability, consider mounting them in a Open-Topped transport.

And then they become a point sink for a unit that doesn't cause a lot of damage anyway. This way orks still lack S7 volume of fire at a decent range, since no one is going to include them.

Lootas are pretty much useless in this edition but 85% of orks index is overpriced, is not a lootas problem. Pks are overcosted too since they're a close combat weapon, they're nothing like a lascannon that can sit in cover the entire game and unleash its devastating firepower from first turn till the end of the game towards everything since its long long range. Orks are also T4 models with 6+ or 4+ amor with no invuln in close combat and only a possible 5+ against shooting, it's quite easy to wipe them out before the pks get to strike. Many players rely on big choppas rather than pks for a reason.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

TheNewBlood wrote:
25 points sounds about right for a high-AP weapon that wounds every vehicle in the game on a 3+ and T5 and below on a 2+ equipped to a model with 3 base attacks that hit on a 4+ (and has easy access to more attacks).

I do think that a Power Klaw should be more expensive than a Marine Power Fist. Most of the time they are both going to be wounding vehicles on 3+ and infantry on 2+. I don't think that the extra +1 attack all the time and the extra +1 to wound sometimes is worth the Klaw being double the cost of the Marine Power Fist. Most of the ork players I've chatted with would rather spend the 25 points elsewhere. I do think it's a good thing that Power Klaws aren't as crazy deadly as they used to be and other weapon choices like Big Choppas are now viable.

TheNewBlood wrote:
Lootas are expensive because they give Orks something they otherwise lack: S7 volume of fire at a decent range. If you are finding them to be lacking in durability, consider mounting them in a Open-Topped transport.

Following that logic, shouldn't Marine Assault Squads, Terminators and Assault Centurions go up by a significant amount? After all, Space Marines are a shooty army, not an assault army.

*

Tyranids are supposed to be an assault army, not a shooting army. Should Genestealer Cult shooty units get a price increase because they can get allied into Tyranid armies? The orks are their own faction, and I think they need to have decent shooting within that faction without an extra penalty layered on. World Eaters are always going to be more of a choppy army, but they can ally in Iron Warriors for some shooting. Similarly Goffs are always going to be more of a choppy army, but Bad Moons should have effective shooting. I think they can probably do that with stratagems and clan abilities, which might end up being a more fluff-friendly solution than just dropping points. I'm pretty optimistic about how things will turn out.

On a side note, Orks also have more than Lootas for decent range, mid-strength high-volume fire. Supa Shootas on flyers, Deffstorm Mega-Shootas on Gorkanauts and Supa-Gatlers on Stompas in the main codex and a few more if you count Forge World. Mostly they're mounted on vehicles, though, and Lootas are our only long-range infantry unless one counts the Shokk Attack Gun.

*I'm mostly kidding about Space Marines being a shooty army. In the fluff they're supposed to be really good at assaulting as well. My understanding is that they just haven't been that great at it on the tabletop in past editions. On the other hand, Ork shooting is supposed to be pretty deadly, if unreliable. They aren't very good shots, but they're supposed to make up for it with volume. My understanding is that in 2nd Edition orks weren't that bad at shooting (I started early 3rd, so I could definitely be wrong about that) but it just hasn't worked out that well on the tabletop since then.

**Rismonite**

koooaei wrote:
I'd reserve my judgement till the codex drops. Not only for power klaws but also for 2/3 of the units that are 20-30% overpriced like all the buggies, koptas, all the walkers, stompa, burnas, lootas, mek gunz, flash gitz, planes...all the shooty options all in all. Cause currently only boyz, stormboyz and half the characters are priced somewhat correctly. Well, maybe kommandoes depending on how you look at it.

I read this and had a thought, this is how they will make our codex;
-Goffz get cheaper Warboss, Deff Dreadz, Kanz, Nobz, Tankbustas, Deff Rollaz, and Klaws
-Speed Freaks get cheaper Planes, Buggies, warbikers, Nob bikerz, trukkz, and Koptas
-Bad Moonz get cheaper Naughts, Meganobz, Flash Gitz, Mek Gunz and any Mega Armored Characters
-Blood Axes get cheaper Stormboyz, Kommandos, Gunwagonz and Big Gunz.
-Deffskullz get cheaper Lootaz, Burnas, Kanz and SAG mekz.
-Snakebites get cheaper Runtherdz, Grotz, Squigz, Ammo Runtz, and Primaris Nobz
-Stompa reduced by 50 points and remains overcosted

To get the benefit your detachment needs the appropriate clan tag and paint job.

Anyways, that wraps up the Ork Dex

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

Rismonite wrote:
I read this and had a thought, this is how they will make our codex;
-Goffz get cheaper Warboss, Deff Dreadz, Kanz, Nobz, Tankbustas, Deff Rollaz, and Klaws
-Speed Freaks get cheaper Planes, Buggies, warbikers, Nob bikerz, trukkz, and Koptas
-Bad Moonz get cheaper Naughts, Meganobz, Flash Gitz, Mek Gunz and any Mega Armored Characters
-Blood Axes get cheaper Stormboyz, Kommandos, Gunwagonz and Big Gunz.
-Deffskullz get cheaper Lootaz, Burnas, Kanz and SAG mekz.
-Snakebites get cheaper Runtherdz, Grotz, Squigz, Ammo Runtz, and Primaris Nobz
-Stompa reduced by 50 points and remains overcosted

If you replaced "cheaper" with "better" I think you'd be right. I have a feeling they won't have different point costs for different clans.

They might do things like give the Deff Skulls a clan-specific stratagem that allows their entire army to re-roll when determining the number of shots from variable-shot weapons for a shooting phase. Or maybe a stratagem that sets the number of shots at max for a single unit for a shooting phase. That would benefit Lootas, Burnas and SAG Big Meks (among other things) without having to have multiple lists of points costs or dealing with percentages.

**Voss**

Rismonite wrote:
koooaei wrote:
I'd reserve my judgement till the codex drops. Not only for power klaws but also for 2/3 of the units that are 20-30% overpriced like all the buggies, koptas, all the walkers, stompa, burnas, lootas, mek gunz, flash gitz, planes...all the shooty options all in all. Cause currently only boyz, stormboyz and half the characters are priced somewhat correctly. Well, maybe kommandoes depending on how you look at it.

I read this and had a thought, this is how they will make our codex;
-Goffz get cheaper Warboss, Deff Dreadz, Kanz, Nobz, Tankbustas, Deff Rollaz, and Klaws
-Speed Freaks get cheaper Planes, Buggies, warbikers, Nob bikerz, trukkz, and Koptas
-Bad Moonz get cheaper Naughts, Meganobz, Flash Gitz, Mek Gunz and any Mega Armored Characters
-Blood Axes get cheaper Stormboyz, Kommandos, Gunwagonz and Big Gunz.
-Deffskullz get cheaper Lootaz, Burnas, Kanz and SAG mekz.
-Snakebites get cheaper Runtherdz, Grotz, Squigz, Ammo Runtz, and Primaris Nobz
-Stompa reduced by 50 points and remains overcosted

To get the benefit your detachment needs the appropriate clan tag and paint job.

Anyways, that wraps up the Ork Dex

No chance they'll do it that way. Well, except the overcosted possibilities.

Klans will just be like chapters or legions. Goffs will get some melee related benefit, someone will get a stupid morale thing, Deff Skullz will get a loota specific stratagem, etc.

**Frozocrone**

Rismonite wrote:
koooaei wrote:
I'd reserve my judgement till the codex drops. Not only for power klaws but also for 2/3 of the units that are 20-30% overpriced like all the buggies, koptas, all the walkers, stompa, burnas, lootas, mek gunz, flash gitz, planes...all the shooty options all in all. Cause currently only boyz, stormboyz and half the characters are priced somewhat correctly. Well, maybe kommandoes depending on how you look at it.

I read this and had a thought, this is how they will make our codex;
-Goffz get cheaper Warboss, Deff Dreadz, Kanz, Nobz, Tankbustas, Deff Rollaz, and Klaws
-Speed Freaks get cheaper Planes, Buggies, warbikers, Nob bikerz, trukkz, and Koptas
-Bad Moonz get cheaper Naughts, Meganobz, Flash Gitz, Mek Gunz and any Mega Armored Characters
-Blood Axes get cheaper Stormboyz, Kommandos, Gunwagonz and Big Gunz.
-Deffskullz get cheaper Lootaz, Burnas, Kanz and SAG mekz.
-Snakebites get cheaper Runtherdz, Grotz, Squigz, Ammo Runtz, and Primaris Nobz
-Stompa reduced by 50 points and remains overcosted

To get the benefit your detachment needs the appropriate clan tag and paint job.

Anyways, that wraps up the Ork Dex

Assuming that GW takes the time to create 'Chapter Tactics' for factions that aren't a flavour of Space Marine.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

Frozocrone wrote:
Assuming that GW takes the time to create 'Chapter Tactics' for factions that aren't a flavour of Space Marine.

I think that's a relatively safe assumption to make, considering that they've built in <clan> keywords on most things. It think that most factions will get a Chapter Tactics equivalent. Whether or not they're any good is another matter, but I'm fairly optimistic.

I'm hoping that everyone gets as many stratagems as Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines. I haven't looked into any of the Grey Knights codex reviews yet, as they don't interest me much. It might indicate what minor factions can expect to get.

**SemperMortis**

well as it stands I just yesterday put 35 bikes, 30 Lootas, 5 Mek Gunz a Morkanaut, 12 Killa Kanz, 2 Deff Dreadz, 3 Trukkz and 3 Wagons on my shelf and they are now officially starting to collect dust.

The worst part is, I officially hate playing Horde Orkz. I was in a tournament this weekend and I had 90 Boyz in 3 units, 35 Kommandos in 7 units, 40 Stormboyz in 2 units and a bunch of characters. Most of the game was me moving them around, it got so boring at points.

**koooaei**

I dread the clan rules that'll prevent me taking Ghaz with non-goffs. Don't particularly like goffs and wouldn't like to field my blood axes as those but Ghaz is a must.

**Voss**

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Frozocrone wrote:
Assuming that GW takes the time to create 'Chapter Tactics' for factions that aren't a flavour of Space Marine.

I think that's a relatively safe assumption to make, considering that they've built in <clan> keywords on most things. It think that most factions will get a Chapter Tactics equivalent. Whether or not they're any good is another matter, but I'm fairly optimistic.

I'm hoping that everyone gets as many stratagems as Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines.

Probably something. Something being about half.

And yeah, I'm expecting continued wild variance in quality and internal (and external) balance.

**craggy**

daedalus wrote:
I'm not sure bipolar means what you think it means.

likewise, schizophrenia isn't the same as multiple personality disorder.

**Frozocrone**

koooaei wrote:
I dread the clan rules that'll prevent me taking Ghaz with non-goffs. Don't particularly like goffs and wouldn't like to field my blood axes as those but Ghaz is a must.

I know that feeling - I love Bad Moons and yet there are no characters for them (Flash Gitz and Badruk dont even have clans but would be Freebooterz).

That said, Ghaz's rules work on <Ork> units, not <Clan> units, so it's simply a matter of fielding a Patrol detachment specifically for Ghaz if one wants to play other Klans.

**SemperMortis**

Frozocrone wrote:
koooaei wrote:
I dread the clan rules that'll prevent me taking Ghaz with non-goffs. Don't particularly like goffs and wouldn't like to field my blood axes as those but Ghaz is a must.

I know that feeling - I love Bad Moons and yet there are no characters for them (Flash Gitz and Badruk dont even have clans but would be Freebooterz).

That said, Ghaz's rules work on <Ork> units, not <Clan> units, so it's simply a matter of fielding a Patrol detachment specifically for Ghaz if one wants to play other Klans.

From being disappointed for years with GW releases I strongly advise caution. You forget that GW can undo anything they like at a whim.

As it stands Ghaz is basically an auto-include as are weirdboyz and stormboyz are no longer complete trash, beyond that, the entire index is basically unusable, what does that mean? Well in my pessimistic opinion that means that Boyz, Stormboyz, Weirdboyz and Ghaz will probably get nerfed a bit. Probably a increase in price or a stat reduction or in the case of Weirdboyz, they just might make them explode when using powers. To offset this they will make 2 random units in our codex suck slightly less and then call it a day

**koooaei**

After seeing the codex CSM (a mighty bunch of even more pessimistic SemperMortises) i think GW is really eager to make things more even across the codex than ever before. I'd expect price drops to at least half the ork index. However, there will certainly be some restrictions on the good stuff. Like i've allready said about Ghaz being a Goff. And playing around the clan restrictions to get a character of another clan in your list effectively can be either tricky or not viable at all. I haven't gotten a Ghaz model yet but i have Snikrot (<3 blood axez) and i'm afraid i won't be able to use both. And it's gona be a tough call on what to discard - a model that i want to field or a model that i have to field.

**SemperMortis**

koooaei wrote:
After seeing the codex CSM (a mighty bunch of even more pessimistic SemperMortises) i think GW is really eager to make things more even across the codex than ever before. I'd expect price drops to at least half the ork index. However, there will certainly be some restrictions on the good stuff. Like i've allready said about Ghaz being a Goff. And playing around the clan restrictions to get a character of another clan in your list effectively can be either tricky or not viable at all. I haven't gotten a Ghaz model yet but i have Snikrot (<3 blood axez) and i'm afraid i won't be able to use both. And it's gona be a tough call on what to discard - a model that i want to field or a model that i have to field.

I still remember the spiel that GW was putting out in 7th edition, about toning down the power creep and attempting to balance the power levels. So honestly, fingers crossed that you are right, but as it stands I don't hold much faith in GWs ability to do that.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

koooaei wrote:
I dread the clan rules that'll prevent me taking Ghaz with non-goffs. Don't particularly like goffs and wouldn't like to field my blood axes as those but Ghaz is a must.

I'm hoping that Ghaz's abilities will continue to work with all orks.

Actually, I think it would be really cool for them to come out with a generic "Warlord" HQ choice that's a step above a Warboss and who's Breakin' Heads ability isn't restricted to one clan.

**Jidmah**

koooaei wrote:
After seeing the codex CSM (a mighty bunch of even more pessimistic SemperMortises) i think GW is really eager to make things more even across the codex than ever before. I'd expect price drops to at least half the ork index. However, there will certainly be some restrictions on the good stuff. Like i've allready said about Ghaz being a Goff. And playing around the clan restrictions to get a character of another clan in your list effectively can be either tricky or not viable at all. I haven't gotten a Ghaz model yet but i have Snikrot (<3 blood axez) and i'm afraid i won't be able to use both. And it's gona be a tough call on what to discard - a model that i want to field or a model that i have to field.

Supreme Command Detachment allows you to field Ghaz + Weird Boyz + Zagstrukk + Biker Meks (did you ever drive 5" or less just to repair a vehicle?) which are a different clan from your core army.

Vanguard Detachment can hold Snikrot and two units of kommandoz plus a Weird Boyz who doesn't care about clans whatsoever.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
koooaei wrote:
I dread the clan rules that'll prevent me taking Ghaz with non-goffs. Don't particularly like goffs and wouldn't like to field my blood axes as those but Ghaz is a must.

I'm hoping that Ghaz's abilities will continue to work with all orks.

Actually, I think it would be really cool for them to come out with a generic "Warlord" HQ choice that's a step above a Warboss and who's Breakin' Heads ability isn't restricted to one clan.

That's pretty much what Ghaz is in both fluff and rules right now...

**SemperMortis**

Getting back on topic though. Does anyone else have any examples of similar nonsense from GW and our player base here on dakka?

My example was people explaining to me why my CC army has to pay extra for shooting and why my CC army has to pay extra for CC for the exact opposite reasons.

That explanation has always bugged me and the irony is that people jumped in here to defend those reasons independently of one another.

Or instead of defending them independently of one another they explain that you have to pay extra for CC because you are good at CC and you have to pay extra for ranged because you don't have range so its something your army really needs, as if that somehow justifies me paying ridiculous points for throw away units that never get fielded.

Bringing in GW to the mental debate, they have to realize that nobody is going to buy a unit that sucks....well orkz do this all the time but thats because 3/4ths of our codex is trash, but the average player wont. How many eldar players were buying Fire Prisms and Falcons in 7th compared to Wraith Knights, Wraith Guard, Spiders and Scat Bikes?

So with that in mind wouldn't it make sense for GW to at least try to make the codex balanced against itself. Yeah sure have units better at certain aspects then others, Tank Bustas and Flash Gitz shouldn't be shooting the same target, but the difference is one of those units actually sees Table time the other is really nice looking and lives for eternity on the shelf. If GW actually pulled their collectives heads out of the collective fundaments they would realize they could make a lot more money doing this as people would buy more stuff.