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SemperMortis wrote:

Spoiler:

Getting back on topic though. Does anyone else have any examples of similar nonsense from GW and our player base here on dakka?

My example was people explaining to me why my CC army has to pay extra for shooting and why my CC army has to pay extra for CC for the exact opposite reasons.

That explanation has always bugged me and the irony is that people jumped in here to defend those reasons independently of one another.

Or instead of defending them independently of one another they explain that you have to pay extra for CC because you are good at CC and you have to pay extra for ranged because you don't have range so its something your army really needs, as if that somehow justifies me paying ridiculous points for throw away units that never get fielded.

Spoiler:

Bringing in GW to the mental debate, they have to realize that nobody is going to buy a unit that sucks....well orkz do this all the time but thats because 3/4ths of our codex is trash, but the average player wont. How many eldar players were buying Fire Prisms and Falcons in 7th compared to Wraith Knights, Wraith Guard, Spiders and Scat Bikes?

So with that in mind wouldn't it make sense for GW to at least try to make the codex balanced against itself. Yeah sure have units better at certain aspects then others, Tank Bustas and Flash Gitz shouldn't be shooting the same target, but the difference is one of those units actually sees Table time the other is really nice looking and lives for eternity on the shelf. If GW actually pulled their collectives heads out of the collective fundaments they would realize they could make a lot more money doing this as people would buy more stuff.

I think the cost of the Loota and the cost of the Powerklaw are apples to oranges in terms of comparison. They are unrelated to each other aside from being in an Ork army.

The ork statline is disadvantaged to shooting and every boy, for sake of flavor, is buying points for melee stats no matter what he is holding, deffgun, choppa, or rokkit launcha. If you want -any- shooting, bring some Lootas. If the enemy has brought Loota-esque weapons in the hands of superior marksmen, then you have your work cutout for you in terms of knowing what needs a dice check against an Ork Boy statline holding choppa.

I think the powerklaw, for sake of balance and not flavor, is paying a premium for being in the hands of a race that uses it better then most, and for being soo good vs. vehicles. I believe that the powerklaw/saw should have been better for the cost. Early codices are showing GW might be thinking they charged everyone too big a premium. I do not expect our Powerfist will be 12 points though, and not just because balance, I also think the nerf to meganob klaws is a push to sell Nob kitz, who ideally, weild a big choppa.

I think our shooting is just inferior because orkz, and our powerklaw is just overcosted because balance. Apples to Oranges, one because we are orkz, the other because someone thought we needed a nerf in the new ed, be it to drive sales or for balance. The terrible Lootas I accept, the poorly performing powerklaw I hate. I do think it will be a challenge justifying a Big Choppa if the Klaw gets to 17 points. T7 vehicles having nearly no save is nice.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I dread the clan rules that'll prevent me taking Ghaz with non-goffs. Don't particularly like goffs and wouldn't like to field my blood axes as those but Ghaz is a must.

I'm hoping that Ghaz's abilities will continue to work with all orks.

Actually, I think it would be really cool for them to come out with a generic "Warlord" HQ choice that's a step above a Warboss and who's Breakin' Heads ability isn't restricted to one clan.

That's pretty much what Ghaz is in both fluff and rules right now...

Yep, and I think it would be nice to have an HQ similar to Ghaz that isn't a named character with a per-determined clan. Maybe not quite as powerful as Ghaz, as he should be special, but there are lots of examples of big ol' ork warlords bossing around Warbosses and leading a Waaaagh made up of many clans in the fluff. It could maybe be even a Stratagem like the Space Marine's Chapter Master stratagem. Pay a certain number of CP before the game and change your Warboss' Breakin' Heads ability to Da Boss is Watchin.

I'm not saying that it's necessary, just that it would be nice.

 Rismonite wrote:

I think the cost of the Loota and the cost of the Powerklaw are apples to oranges in terms of comparison. They are unrelated to each other aside from being in an Ork army.

The ork statline is disadvantaged to shooting and every boy, for sake of flavor, is buying points for melee stats no matter what he is holding, deffgun, choppa, or rokkit launcha. If you want -any- shooting, bring some Lootas. If the enemy has brought Loota-esque weapons in the hands of superior marksmen, then you have your work cutout for you in terms of knowing what needs a dice check against an Ork Boy statline holding choppa.

I think the powerklaw, for sake of balance and not flavor, is paying a premium for being in the hands of a race that uses it better then most, and for being soo good vs. vehicles. I believe that the powerklaw/saw should have been better for the cost. Early codices are showing GW might be thinking they charged everyone too big a premium. I do not expect our Powerfist will be 12 points though, and not just because balance, I also think the nerf to meganob klaws is a push to sell Nob kitz, who ideally, weild a big choppa.

I think our shooting is just inferior because orkz, and our powerklaw is just overcosted because balance. Apples to Oranges, one because we are orkz, the other because someone thought we needed a nerf in the new ed, be it to drive sales or for balance. The terrible Lootas I accept, the poorly performing powerklaw I hate. I do think it will be a challenge justifying a Big Choppa if the Klaw gets to 17 points. T7 vehicles having nearly no save is nice.

See, I very rarely agree with SemperMortis, but I think this is exactly what he is talking about.

Either you pay for stat lines and weapons separately. Then it shouldn't matter whether the PK/PF or Deff Gun is held by a boyz, a nob, a warboss or a grot. We already payed for that S5, 3 Attacks and the possibility of getting PKs when buying a nob profile. We pay more when we get a warboss to hold it because it has better stats, we pay less for a spanna or mek model.

Or you pay for the the weapons in regard to the stat line of models that can take them. In that case any ranged weapon should be 1/3 of the Space Marine counterparts as we need three times as many of them to get the same results. AM is paying 10 points for powerfists because they are bad at combat, why should Orks have to pay 17 points for autocannons (one more point than the AM equivalent) when they are already worse at shooting?

GW needs to decide if you pay more because you are good at something or if you pay more because you are not good at something - and then consistently apply their decision to all codices.

Currently orks always pay more, so our best unit is the one which doesn't pay anything for weapons: Boyz.

I really don't think Orks should be paying a premium for ranged weapons in any event, as it is unfluffy. These are the murderous space hooligans that continually shout for "MOAR DAKKA" and quite frankly should be loaded with a ton and a half of (wildly inaccurate) guns, not starved for them. It also doesn't seem fair from a crunch standpoint, but the total violation of fluff is what really gets me.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
I really don't think Orks should be paying a premium for ranged weapons in any event, as it is unfluffy. These are the murderous space hooligans that continually shout for "MOAR DAKKA" and quite frankly should be loaded with a ton and a half of (wildly inaccurate) guns, not starved for them. It also doesn't seem fair from a crunch standpoint, but the total violation of fluff is what really gets me.

I agree, orks shooting accuracy should be terrible, we all agree about that, and the BS 5+ is there for that reason, but spamming tons of big weapons is 100% fluffy as orks always loved big guns. That's why several units/weapons should have a price cut. Tons of lootas, rokkits, mek gunz, buggies, bikes, flash gitz, etc are very fluffy but only rokkits can be spammed in this edition unless you want a terrible list, and even rokkits can't be spammed in the numbers we really need.

 Blackie wrote:

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
I really don't think Orks should be paying a premium for ranged weapons in any event, as it is unfluffy. These are the murderous space hooligans that continually shout for "MOAR DAKKA" and quite frankly should be loaded with a ton and a half of (wildly inaccurate) guns, not starved for them. It also doesn't seem fair from a crunch standpoint, but the total violation of fluff is what really gets me.

I agree, orks shooting accuracy should be terrible, we all agree about that, and the BS 5+ is there for that reason, but spamming tons of big weapons is 100% fluffy as orks always loved big guns. That's why several units/weapons should have a price cut. Tons of lootas, rokkits, mek gunz, buggies, bikes, flash gitz, etc are very fluffy but only rokkits can be spammed in this edition unless you want a terrible list, and even rokkits can't be spammed in the numbers we really need.

Last edition a Rokkit was 5pts, its now 12. For some reason our units pay 28pts for a Twin Rokkit because an over priced Rokkit is even more OP when you have 2 of them and tack on another 4pts. Put that in perspective, Twin rokkitz costs 28pts, last edition 2 Rokkitz were 10pts. That is a 180% increase in price and the only difference between then and now is that they do a flat 3 damage, which while significant, doesn't do much because we miss with 2/3rds of our shots.

Spamming lootas as you said is completely unrealistic for a few reasons. number 1 is going to be price. 17pts for a single model is ridiculous, especially since they die to a stiff breeze. Realistically the only way this edition to field lootas is to put them inside a Trukk or a Battlewagon. So 12 Lootas in a Trukk = about 285pts+, a Battlewagon with 12 Lootas = 365pts you have officially reached knight level pts and for that a Battlewagon is less durable then a knight and the 12 lootas have less dakka then the knight (24 shots on average, 8 hits on average and 4 wounds against T7 vehicles on average at -1AP)

Orkz are supposed to be the faction with the absolute most dakka, putting shots down range at ridiculous rates while missing most of the time, as it stands my Competitive lists dont bring ANY dakka beyond Ghaz's Twin Big Shootas because none of our dakka is competitive, at all.

The fact that twin rokkits costs more than two single rokkits is absolutely mental, I can't understand why GW priced them at 28 points instead of 24 if single rokkits cost 12.

A lascannon is way more powerful than a rokkit having a better profile and being fired by a better shooter but a single one costs 25 points and the twin version is exactly 50 points, not 54 or more. Same for multimeltas, 27 is the single weapon, 54 the twin version.

Short answer, we are.

So, with regards to Ork things being overpriced:

First off, all powerfists were overpriced, and it's being fixed in the codecies, but Orks haven't had their codex yet, so I assume that the cost of Klaws will go down. It will still be higher than a Guard Powerfist because an Ork is +2STR, +1A, and +1WS, but I'd guess somewhere around 15 points.

Rokkits are also overcosted, but so are just about every heavy antitank option out there. Note that a Plasmagun is 7 points, a Meltagun is 12 points, and a Lascannon is 20 [IG]. Sisters of Battle Eviscerators are 22 points, Inferno Pistol are 12 [which, even then, are quite overcosted]. The Leman Russ Vanquisher tank gun is 25 points vs. the Battle Cannon at 22.

It's also worth mention that Storm Bolters are 2 points while Flamers are 9, for reasons yet undiscovered.

Pricing is out of whack across the board, but I think the primary complaint here derives from the fact that Space Marine have already had a codex to adjust and correct the pricing problems, while Orks haven't.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, with regards to Ork things being overpriced:

First off, all powerfists were overpriced, and it's being fixed in the codecies, but Orks haven't had their codex yet, so I assume that the cost of Klaws will go down. It will still be higher than a Guard Powerfist because an Ork is +2STR, +1A, and +1WS, but I'd guess somewhere around 15 points.

Rokkits are also overcosted, but so are just about every heavy antitank option out there. Note that a Plasmagun is 7 points, a Meltagun is 12 points, and a Lascannon is 20 [IG]. Sisters of Battle Eviscerators are 22 points, Inferno Pistol are 12 [which, even then, are quite overcosted]. The Leman Russ Vanquisher tank gun is 25 points vs. the Battle Cannon at 22.

It's also worth mention that Storm Bolters are 2 points while Flamers are 9, for reasons yet undiscovered.

Pricing is out of whack across the board, but I think the primary complaint here derives from the fact that Space Marine have already had a codex to adjust and correct the pricing problems, while Orks haven't.

So you are going to double down on the philosophy that because orkz are good at CC and have better stats for CC they should pay more for CC weapons, but then to get away from the stereotype you then say that all ranged weapons are over priced and need a reduction. I can't fault the 2nd part, but the 1st part again I can only because the 2nd part isn't fully addressed. Since orkz suck at shooting our Rokkitz should be about 5pts each not 12, this also factors into the fact that our forces that usually take Rokkitz are 6+ Save.

Your example of IG Weapons being cheaper then SM weapons is important because you are pointing out a major flaw in the Ork Index that IG dont have. Your weapons are appropriately priced for the models that use them. IG Are S3 so it makes sense that the PF is cheaper for them, got it. IG have BS4+ and a weaker save so it makes sense that a lascannon is cheaper for them. But then when you look at orkz....Our Lascannon equivalent is the Zzap Gun which is priced at 18pts. Instead of S9 its S2D6, instead of D6 damage its a flat 3, instead of 48inch range its 36, And who caries it? BS5+ vehicles or Big Gun Grots at 4+ with a 6+ save and T2. So with less range, less damage, less accuracy, less durability do you really think it is priced correctly compared to the IG and SM Equivalents?

Yeah, by this logic any ork shooty weapons should receive a 50-75% price cut.

The 7 points plasma gun for scions is ridicolous, SM has the same option for 13 points, almost twice the price for the same weapon. But AM is a bad example overall, that army needs to be toned down and not because of conscripts.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, with regards to Ork things being overpriced:

First off, all powerfists were overpriced, and it's being fixed in the codecies, but Orks haven't had their codex yet, so I assume that the cost of Klaws will go down. It will still be higher than a Guard Powerfist because an Ork is +2STR, +1A, and +1WS, but I'd guess somewhere around 15 points.

Rokkits are also overcosted, but so are just about every heavy antitank option out there. Note that a Plasmagun is 7 points, a Meltagun is 12 points, and a Lascannon is 20 [IG]. Sisters of Battle Eviscerators are 22 points, Inferno Pistol are 12 [which, even then, are quite overcosted]. The Leman Russ Vanquisher tank gun is 25 points vs. the Battle Cannon at 22.

It's also worth mention that Storm Bolters are 2 points while Flamers are 9, for reasons yet undiscovered.

Pricing is out of whack across the board, but I think the primary complaint here derives from the fact that Space Marine have already had a codex to adjust and correct the pricing problems, while Orks haven't.

So you are going to double down on the philosophy that because orkz are good at CC and have better stats for CC they should pay more for CC weapons, but then to get away from the stereotype you then say that all ranged weapons are over priced and need a reduction. I can't fault the 2nd part, but the 1st part again I can only because the 2nd part isn't fully addressed. Since orkz suck at shooting our Rokkitz should be about 5pts each not 12, this also factors into the fact that our forces that usually take Rokkitz are 6+ Save.

Your example of IG Weapons being cheaper then SM weapons is important because you are pointing out a major flaw in the Ork Index that IG dont have. Your weapons are appropriately priced for the models that use them. IG Are S3 so it makes sense that the PF is cheaper for them, got it. IG have BS4+ and a weaker save so it makes sense that a lascannon is cheaper for them. But then when you look at orkz....Our Lascannon equivalent is the Zzap Gun which is priced at 18pts. Instead of S9 its S2D6, instead of D6 damage its a flat 3, instead of 48inch range its 36, And who caries it? BS5+ vehicles or Big Gun Grots at 4+ with a 6+ save and T2. So with less range, less damage, less accuracy, less durability do you really think it is priced correctly compared to the IG and SM Equivalents?

Weapons and units are supposedly priced based on how effective they are. A IG Powerfist is cheap because, compared to a Powerklaw, it's absolute trash. And even for 10 points, it's overpriced. There may also be a tax on having out of specialization ability, considering Cultists are 5 points and Guardsmen are 4, and Repentia are 17 each for no otherwise explainable reason, but I don't think they consistently applied that philosophy.

I'd also note that Lootas are 2 points less than a Guardsman Autocannon team. This also seems fairly appropriate, though they've probably overvalued the D3 shots because they chronically overvalue all the random-shot and random-damage weapons.


So yes, I have no doubt a Powerklaw is worth nowhere near 25 points, considering that a SM Powerfist just dropped from 20 to 12. However, under the hypothetical assumption that 20 points was appropriate for an SM Powerfist, 25 points would probably have been appropriate for a Ork Powerklaw. Of course, the underlying assumption, that Powerfists were worth 20 points, is false, since it appears that they're actually worth 12, so that means there's no way that Powerklaws are actually worth 25 and probably worth closer to 15 points.


Finally, on the subject of Big Gunz and Heavy Weapons Teams. It costs 20 points for a Missile Launcher, but 15 for a Kannon. The two weapons are otherwise identical, save for 12" of extra range the IG Missile Launcher has, so there is some attempt to account for the differing Ballistic Skill [though Grots are also BS4+]. The Zzap gun is probably overcosted too. On a Big Gun chassis, compared to a Lascannon, it's probably not badly costed, but compared to the Kannon, they've definitely overvalued the 2D6 STR.

You shouldn't compare index-costs with a codex-costs.

Alot of ork-units and wargear will most likely see a costreduction, including the Powerklaw.

A Ork Powerklaw is fairly priced compared to a Marine Powerfist - *in the indexes*. It costs 5 pts more because the wielder is often better and stronger: S10 vs S8 and 3 attacks vs 2* attacks. (*There are exceptions ofcourse, some Marine sergeants do have 3 attacks.)

Now the Marine-fist got a big pointreduction, so the comparison falters. Just be patient and the Klaw will most likely see a point-reduction as well, *but* don't expect it to be 12 points.

It's the same thing with IG Lascannons and SM Lascannons (and most other special/heavy weapons available to the Imperium.)
Identical Weapon, but SM pay 5 pts more - because overall they have BS3+ while IG have BS4+. A Lascannon is better in the hands of a Marine than in the hands of a Guardsman. Just as a Powerklaw is better in the hands of a Nob, than in the hands of a Tactical Sergeant.