Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 adamsouza wrote:
This guy is shooting for the moon and hoping to get a fraction of what he's asking for.

He's shooting something. Could be hard drugs. Could be his foot. Pretty sure it's not the moon though.

Mitochondria wrote:
I would love to see him win.

Sure you would. But that'll not happen.

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah because then we all know GW would immediatly continue busniess as usual except changing the things we dislike about them magicly!

ohh or better yet GW would magicly get bought out by some small gaming company you like!

Nah they'd just do what they did last time this happened:

1. Annihilate the longest running IP for the sake of copyright.
2. Forsake their legacy in favour of Trademark symbols.

The more I read about this, the less it appears to be actual news. "Obscure clergyman sends rambling letter to local courthouse". Slow day at Spiky Bits?

I'm more dissapointed that Spiky Bits are giving this insanity air time, showing (what I had noticed for a long time) Rob's obvious saltiness over not being on the playtest of 8th and his long standing grudge with GW.

This reads a bit like Digital Homicide trying to sue Jim Sterling. A waste of everyone's time and ultimately pointless..

What a fruitloop.

Love how he misses the obvious classic science fiction parallel... Frank Herbert's 'Dune'.

Mitochondria wrote:
I would love to see him win.

Why?

 Orlanth wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
I would love to see him win.

Why?

Yeah, me thinks someone doesn't understand how precedents work.....

But in all honesty this is a dead story. Nothing will come of it other than chuckles.

IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!

zerosignal wrote:
What a fruitloop.

Love how he misses the obvious classic science fiction parallel... Frank Herbert's 'Dune'.

I know, right? .

This is already at the "Move along, nothing to see here!" stage, isn't it?

 Orlanth wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
I would love to see him win.

Why?

He's bitter about something GW "took away from" him, and he obviously hasn't thought about what kind of impact that kind of precedent would have on the sci-fi and fantasy genres (it would basically completely destroy them). Of course, this will likely get thrown out the second it hits the desk.

First of all I am no lawyer and there are more details that come into play, but I don't think this would ever fly in court.

This guy owes GW a lot of money and is just using this as a distraction to grab news headlines.
Also, how is this breaking the Sherman-Anti Trust Act or price fixing if GW is the sole intellectual property owners to their own franchise? We aren't talking about a monopoly on diamonds here, it's a plastic toy figurine series.

Okay... price fixing among competitors? What competitors? Forge World? Max Mini? Dragon Forge? Victoria miniatures? They are all 3rd party.
The only real competition they have are among themselves and at the mercy of GW for lending them their licensing to produce unofficial 40k miniatures.

Think of it like Apple's iPhone, Apple has much more strict standards on how to sell the iPhone. If GW is breaking the law than Apple is breaking the hell out of the law.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I'm more dissapointed that Spiky Bits are giving this insanity air time, showing (what I had noticed for a long time) Rob's obvious saltiness over not being on the playtest of 8th and his long standing grudge with GW.

indeed

Spikey Bits are still pushing this, with another video posted, basically in support of the claimant today.

Could Baer's motives be any more transparent?

Yes?

No?

Maybe?

Just ask him!

 Skinnereal wrote:
IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!

They wouldn't even have time for that; chances are it would kill GW. Not just the costs but have to rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. GW would likely be dead in the water.

We'd likely see a short term boost in sales to other miniature companies for a while; followed by a dwindling population of gamers. For better or worse GW is the gateway into miniature wargames for many people. It's got advertising and a highstreet market place that others just don't have at all. Heck mention GW to nearly anyone and they generally know what you mean (sometimes a little prompt that its miniatures/toys). Say Privateer Press or Mantic or heck even Reaper and most people won't have a clue even with hints.

Miniature wargames is a very niche hobby; we don't get adverts during sports games or on the TV; many urban areas only just manage to hold out one small shop and then its often shared with magic the gathering and multiple other games. Without GW I think the hobby would, in the long term, honestly suffer.





And of course that's without realising that the IP side of this legal challenge would kill most other fantasy games off as well. Pretty much anything with an orc or post-Lord of the Rings. Sci-fi games would also be seriously crippled. We might get lucky and all hold out for cuthulu (its at least copyright expired); but honestly if this ever seriously made it to court and was won then it would only harm the market.


The guy's written a long rant that mostly doesn't make any legal or normal sense. It's getting a bit of attention but give it a week or less and it will go away unless the guy pushing it has some deep pockets to keep it in the lime light (and honestly it sounds like if he's got 2 failed and one failing company and has to do resculpts to stay afloat - chances are he's not got those deep pockets).

I think your vision may be a bit blurred. GW does no advertising in the US (as far as I'm aware). What shops it does have here are usually near other FLGS and/or malls. It may be the biggest dog (in terms of sales) but I attribute that more to it being around longer than anything else.
In fact, I don't remember the last time that I saw an ad for any miniature game on TV or any non-game media. I honestly don't know how new gamers begin except through things like RPGs and Star Wars.

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:

First of all I am no lawyer and there are more details that come into play, but I don't think this would ever fly in court.

This guy owes GW a lot of money and is just using this as a distraction to grab news headlines.
Also, how is this breaking the Sherman-Anti Trust Act or price fixing if GW is the sole intellectual property owners to their own franchise? We aren't talking about a monopoly on diamonds here, it's a plastic toy figurine series.

Okay... price fixing among competitors? What competitors? Forge World? Max Mini? Dragon Forge? Victoria miniatures? They are all 3rd party.
The only real competition they have are among themselves and at the mercy of GW for lending them their licensing to produce unofficial 40k miniatures.

I don't know how all the laws of this work, but one thing they do is hold back stock from independent retailers and push it to their own stores. For example, FLGS orders 10 copies of Dark Imperium to cover 8 preorders and they want 2 to have on the shelf. Trade Rep calls FLGS and says they can only allocate 4 boxes to their store. If the other 4 customers want them, they'll need to order online or visit a local GW if there is one. That doubles GWs profit margin right there. Is it illegal? I have no idea. Is it shady? Hell yes and it happens all that time.

Similar thing with moving stuff from retail to direct only. Doesn't give your FLGS the option to order that item at all. GW corners the market on that item as a customer can't get it anywhere else. That can charge what they want. Lots of stuff has recently been moved to direct only.

Also, when deciding where to open a new store, they'll look at the sales figures of all the FLGS. If an FLGS is doing exceptionally well, they'll open up a GW store nearby. Makes sense as they go where there is an existing market and where the money is, but leaves a bad taste in the mouth of a FLGS as they are the ones that built up that market. A lot of Warhammer customers get siphoned from their store and funneled over to the new local GW store. Causing the FLGS to lose money. I don't know the legality of this either as IANAL, but you can understand how this falls in the gray as the local GW Store is in direct competition with the FLGS.

There are other examples I can cite as well (I could get into the whole online shopping cart thing and fixed percentage discounts, but this is long enough). I love the new GW, don't get me wrong, but they aren't innocent in this and I understand why this dude is pissed. Nothing will happen with this as the guy that is suing them seems like a whack job who admitted to recasting and selling their models? So dumb. Anyway, there is potential for a case like this, but not when someone is ranting in their complaints and brings up ridiculous stuff like IP rights (which while might be true), have no bearing on the case at hand.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Popsghostly wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.

Yeah but creating the molds themselves is where the huge costs are. If you only make 200 figures, the number per shoots up.

Yeah, assuming that is true, one can only expect that doesn't take into account designing and creating the master; mold casting; packing; shipping; distro; actually paying their staff; etc. I'm sure GW makes a killing on their minis, but seems rather unbelievable.

Their annual profit for last period (ending may 2017) was £30.5 million, with net assets worth around £62.5 million. A rise in profit from the previous period of ~£17 million.

Now, one could argue the grounds for a reduction in cost of models to buyers, but, we don't know how much of that was driven by the (now) successful version of AoS. Likewise, i'd expect profits to be even higher in their statement for the period to May 2018, simply because of 8th edition and all the new releases.

If profits are maintained in the financial year AFTER 8th edition has finished being released, then, we as customers will be in a very strong position to lobby for price reductions, in addition to any savings made by the company as a result of more advanced technology and tools available to them. But until the full release of 8th is out of the way, there is no way of fully understanding what the true state of affairs are for GW as a profit making company.

We're customers. They're a PLC. They're beholden solely to their shareholders. Not the punters.

In short, we can't lobby for lower prices.

Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.

 Bi'ios wrote:
Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.

Really? I've bought from "modelgirl" before as well.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We're customers. They're a PLC. They're beholden solely to their shareholders. Not the punters.

In short, we can't lobby for lower prices.

Don't be silly, where'd you think all that money they give the shareholders comes from?

 agnosto wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:
Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.

Really? I've bought from "modelgirl" before as well.

Yeah, it's the name used as one of the stores on one of the court documents. It's also mentioned that he provides services for some charities in one of the documents

Kdash wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Popsghostly wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.

Yeah but creating the molds themselves is where the huge costs are. If you only make 200 figures, the number per shoots up.

Yeah, assuming that is true, one can only expect that doesn't take into account designing and creating the master; mold casting; packing; shipping; distro; actually paying their staff; etc. I'm sure GW makes a killing on their minis, but seems rather unbelievable.

Their annual profit for last period (ending may 2017) was £30.5 million, with net assets worth around £62.5 million. A rise in profit from the previous period of ~£17 million.

Now, one could argue the grounds for a reduction in cost of models to buyers, but, we don't know how much of that was driven by the (now) successful version of AoS. Likewise, i'd expect profits to be even higher in their statement for the period to May 2018, simply because of 8th edition and all the new releases.

If profits are maintained in the financial year AFTER 8th edition has finished being released, then, we as customers will be in a very strong position to lobby for price reductions, in addition to any savings made by the company as a result of more advanced technology and tools available to them. But until the full release of 8th is out of the way, there is no way of fully understanding what the true state of affairs are for GW as a profit making company.

If this guy somehow wins any little food place paying attention will sue McDonalds, who does basically the same thing. Finding an area where food sales and traffic are high and then building a store.

Also, having been involved with almost all levels of the supply chain at some point what typically happens is that your FLGS wants to order 10 Dark Imperium and their distributor says "hey no problem!", 9 other stores want the same. Your distributor then orders 100 copies from GW. GW wants to keep some on hand and they have to allocate the rest to distributors (who have ordered way more than they have in total). The distributor gets some amount, lets say enough for each FLGS to get 6 of the 10 they ordered. They hen allocates them as they see fit. If your FLGS places large frequent orders, they are more likely to get their 10 than the FLGS that places small, infrequent orders. The distributor then tells your small FLGS which only got 3, "The bastards didn't send us enough, feth GW amirite?" while they have sent the full order of 10 to the larger, more frequent ordering FLGS.

It's standard business practice unfortunately, keep your big payers happy while making sure you do just enough so the little guy doesn't go somewhere else. Not saying this is the case 100% of the time, but it probably is in many cases.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bi'ios wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:
Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.

Really? I've bought from "modelgirl" before as well.

Yeah, it's the name used as one of the stores on one of the court documents. It's also mentioned that he provides services for some charities in one of the documents

Funny, I got a refund from him some time ago and reported him to Ebay as I pre-ordered the Captain Centos model from him and he sent me a message saying "Oh, I didn't get enough but I will send you a high quality recast instead at the same price!"

Real class act.......

 Overread wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!

They wouldn't even have time for that; chances are it would kill GW. Not just the costs but have to rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. GW would likely be dead in the water.

We'd likely see a short term boost in sales to other miniature companies for a while; followed by a dwindling population of gamers. For better or worse GW is the gateway into miniature wargames for many people. It's got advertising and a highstreet market place that others just don't have at all. Heck mention GW to nearly anyone and they generally know what you mean (sometimes a little prompt that its miniatures/toys). Say Privateer Press or Mantic or heck even Reaper and most people won't have a clue even with hints.

Miniature wargames is a very niche hobby; we don't get adverts during sports games or on the TV; many urban areas only just manage to hold out one small shop and then its often shared with magic the gathering and multiple other games. Without GW I think the hobby would, in the long term, honestly suffer.





And of course that's without realising that the IP side of this legal challenge would kill most other fantasy games off as well. Pretty much anything with an orc or post-Lord of the Rings. Sci-fi games would also be seriously crippled. We might get lucky and all hold out for cuthulu (its at least copyright expired); but honestly if this ever seriously made it to court and was won then it would only harm the market.


The guy's written a long rant that mostly doesn't make any legal or normal sense. It's getting a bit of attention but give it a week or less and it will go away unless the guy pushing it has some deep pockets to keep it in the lime light (and honestly it sounds like if he's got 2 failed and one failing company and has to do resculpts to stay afloat - chances are he's not got those deep pockets).

I agree, if he did somehow win and got everything he is asking for, GW would fold and the games would die off. Why? Because he wants to take control of all the IP GW currently has in order to make it all public domain within 10 years. This, not only obviously affects GWs hold over the model creation, but suddenly the setting, lore and the games themselves. Suddenly anyone can create a new faction from nowhere with whatever rules they would want and create the models for them. People would be able to write, or re-write, new books and things would expand in a way that will truly diminish what we currently have, and what is being worked on.

Sure, it could also lead to a lot of cool things, especially in regards to movies etc, but the state of the game and the setting would no longer be controlled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note to add - As per their financial statement, the cost of "product and supply" for the year to May 2017 was one of their smallest expenses at £2.9 million.

That said, the running costs total £83 million for the year.

Kdash wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!

They wouldn't even have time for that; chances are it would kill GW. Not just the costs but have to rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. GW would likely be dead in the water.

We'd likely see a short term boost in sales to other miniature companies for a while; followed by a dwindling population of gamers. For better or worse GW is the gateway into miniature wargames for many people. It's got advertising and a highstreet market place that others just don't have at all. Heck mention GW to nearly anyone and they generally know what you mean (sometimes a little prompt that its miniatures/toys). Say Privateer Press or Mantic or heck even Reaper and most people won't have a clue even with hints.

Miniature wargames is a very niche hobby; we don't get adverts during sports games or on the TV; many urban areas only just manage to hold out one small shop and then its often shared with magic the gathering and multiple other games. Without GW I think the hobby would, in the long term, honestly suffer.





And of course that's without realising that the IP side of this legal challenge would kill most other fantasy games off as well. Pretty much anything with an orc or post-Lord of the Rings. Sci-fi games would also be seriously crippled. We might get lucky and all hold out for cuthulu (its at least copyright expired); but honestly if this ever seriously made it to court and was won then it would only harm the market.


The guy's written a long rant that mostly doesn't make any legal or normal sense. It's getting a bit of attention but give it a week or less and it will go away unless the guy pushing it has some deep pockets to keep it in the lime light (and honestly it sounds like if he's got 2 failed and one failing company and has to do resculpts to stay afloat - chances are he's not got those deep pockets).

I agree, if he did somehow win and got everything he is asking for, GW would fold and the games would die off. Why? Because he wants to take control of all the IP GW currently has in order to make it all public domain within 10 years. This, not only obviously affects GWs hold over the model creation, but suddenly the setting, lore and the games themselves. Suddenly anyone can create a new faction from nowhere with whatever rules they would want and create the models for them. People would be able to write, or re-write, new books and things would expand in a way that will truly diminish what we currently have, and what is being worked on.

Sure, it could also lead to a lot of cool things, especially in regards to movies etc, but the state of the game and the setting would no longer be controlled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note to add - As per their financial statement, the cost of "product and supply" for the year to May 2017 was one of their smallest expenses at £2.9 million.

That said, the running costs total £83 million for the year.

the courts won't even consider costs b ecause there IS no monopoly. Anymore then Disney has a monopoly on movies just because I Really like Mickey Mouse.

That's what I gathered from the demands as well: it reads like the plaintiff is so angry at Games Workshop he feels entitled to ownership of its entire North American retail apparatus and intellectual property rights, based on some very bizarre claim that GW is not allowed to build an IP based on a specific implementation of a broad concept that was implemented specifically (and differently) implemented somewhere else.

He seems to be arguing that Heinlein exclusively owns soldiers in power armour, as a concept. Or that Gieger exclusively owns the idea of an alien bug monster that hijacks the human body for its reproductive cycle (and frankly, I imagine Ridley Scott would disagree!); and because of that, GW has no claim to its specific implementation thereof.

As a teenager I fancied myself a creative type who would complain often and loudly about now 'nothing is original anymore', to the immense interest if no one. This reads a lot like that: there's no appreciation for nuance, no acknowledgement that there's any level to which their differences are accentuated, no caveat that the argument can be extended to other wargames, other media, or any fiction anywhere with disastrous ramifications.

BoLS put it aptly when they pointed out that the lawsuit was filed by Florida Man, the hero we really don't need.

SpikeyBits still reporting:

https://spikeybits.com/2017/08/whats-next-for-gws-62-5m-lawsuit.html

Apparently the guy won a case vs. Wizards of the Coast?