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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm seeing a genuinely surprising number of reports of 'pay to play' stores.

Perhaps I'm just spoiled having a GW close by, but I really can't think of a worse idea.

My local(ish) place is like that, sort of. Although perhaps it's better to say it's a gaming venue with an entry fee and an attached shop. A converted snooker hall, with plenty of tables and terrain for miniatures games, CCGs and board games, costs a couple of quid for a day's gaming.

TheBaconPope wrote:
Woah..reading this is realize I've been spoiled.

My local store is run by one of the nicest men I've ever met. He walked me through my first game of 40k, never once pressuring me to buy anything. He makes an effort to get to know his customers, anytime someone new walks in on game night he always greets them with a handshake, smile, and some friendly words.

One time, it was storming pretty bad, lightning hit a Transformer, and the power goes out. The store owner, without even a hint of hesitation, yells out, "40k players! Night Fighting rules are now in effect," and then went back to what he was doing.

I stay at my university most of the time, but it's well worth the trip home to give him my business.

This sounds remarkably like my FLGS, Janco Toys in Barnsley, zero pressure, decent advice and just a very warm and friendly welcome, which rubs off on the club members.

Travelled a four and a half/five hour round trip for a day of gaming there, 240 miles, even braving the 50mph "average" speed cameras that Audis find so confusing.


When you get a good FLGS they are like gold

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm seeing a genuinely surprising number of reports of 'pay to play' stores.

Perhaps I'm just spoiled having a GW close by, but I really can't think of a worse idea.

The games being played are your advertising. They do that job in the way no other advertising can do. When we humans see other humans enjoying an activity, we're naturally intrigued. Part of our pack nature stuff.

I mean, I get that there's overheads to be paid, and having ample gaming space comes at a premium. But blimey.

All the stores in my area have been pay to play and imo it works fine from both angles.

From the shop pov, it's a consistent source of revenue - small amounts paid many times add up. Even if guys only ever come in and game, they're paying their bit, whereas I suspect you'd find a definite free-rider problem if you didn't charge i.e.guys who only ever came in to play and never bought anything. It doesn't seem like it from the individual gamer's perspective, but there's a lot of time and effort that goes into getting enough terrain and stuff together to fit out a large number of boards and then maintain them afterwards.

From the customer pov, there's a clear service being provided - tables, terrain, space, neutral territory. Lots of people don't have room for storing a full-size board and stuff to go on it, and if they do they may not have anywhere to actually use it. It's also nice to be able to go and get a game with acquaintances or PuGs that don't require you to invite someone into your house. That's worth paying for imo.

GW stores aren't really a fair comparison - there's rarely that much table space, and while it might be free it's also subject to the whim of the employees. Plus obviously you can't play non-GW games there. I think it's fairer comparing it to a local club where I'd equally expect to pay some kind of subs, for similar reasons.

I may be biased because whatever their other foibles, the shops in my area have all had decent terrain, lots of gaming space, good locations etc. which makes it much less painful to give them some money to use it. They've also typically charged amounts that get filed under "trivial."

On the other hand, the owner of the second one turned out to be a rapist, so there's that.

morgoth wrote:
And what every gamer needs to understand is that a community of 15 miniature game players who together bring in about 450 bucks of business, or about 150 bucks of gross margin a month, hardly justify the floor and shelf space + stock investment.

And then those 15 gamers take their money elsewhere, and tell all their friends to go with them. Congratulations, now your store is dead. Running a successful game store is about more than just the raw numbers.

I won't name these stores.

Store #1: This place had an owner with the worst kid ever. The kid was a short, fat, smelly guy that was just intolerably rude. He had friends over and they would set up his video games in the D&D room and play for hours, being loud and screaming at it- and keeping people from gaming there. These kids were all over the place in there, a dozen or so- and stuff would get stolen all the time. They guy would say it is a 'family store' and accuse people of hating children if they said something about the kids.

Store #2: Full of nothing but hipster 'activists' that sat around criticizing people, calling them 'rednecks' or 'right wing pricks', and using the game room like some kind of weird Social Justice Support Group. Only games they played were these weird indie hipster games and they never bought anything. Store owner never had the guts to make them leave, even as customers complained that they were sick of the snark. Once the ONLY people he had there were curly-mustached hipsters, the place collapsed financially and now it's a fat lady shoe store.

Store #3: The place would cater almost exclusively to Magic and Yugioh players. We had a small following of 40k and other games, and to try and support the guy- we'd order things to his store and pay a few bucks extra for him. Still he'd blow us off for the Card 'Tards. One night we had a bit of a squabble when the card players were demanding we give up the ONE 40k table that hadn't been used for card games. The next weekend, the guy was charging people to use the 40k table, $5.00 an hour.

Store #4: The place had ONE problem- a female 'player' that didn't so much as 'play',but stood around talking to everyone and trying to be the center of attention. She knew next to nothing about 40k, and the ONE time I know of that she played, she wandered off to talk to someone. It wasn't all her fault- a bunch of loser neckbeards showered her with models, praise, and otherwise hung all over her giving her the attention she craved- because she was a girl, and they all thought she liked them. The funny part is that she'd leave her 'gifts' in the store all the time. She was kind of 'cute', but really she was just obsessed with herself. If you were talking about something, she'd find some way to make it about herself. If you said something about her, the Obese White Knight squad would act like you'd done the worst thing ever. Eventually, she found something else and just left. And we made fun of her cult for months. The sad part about it is she was super catty with every other woman that was around, and her attitude and badmouthing ran them all off.

Store #5: The owner was too nice. We had some people with 'mental issues' that never showered or changed their clothes. Despite them being ill, it was still a problem that needed to be addressed. Because he lacked the guts to say something, he would just accuse people of being cruel and insensitive. It ran people off, and now it's just full of stinky people.

These are just a few. I'll remember some more soon.

The only bad experience I have is an extremely small store that doesn't help the situation by catering primarily to magic the gathering so what space they did have was shrunk. Impossible to move around.

We also had a store near where I live that barely interacted with customers. Hostile environment too, card games or nothing. Primarily Yugioh too.

My overall area has a few stores that I know of, though one of those that I have visited has since closed down.

One of them is staffed by, from what I heard as I never personally entered it, a total tool who cannot comprehend customer interest. Supposedly it's not that bad of a store but it doesn't help any if you enter the store and first thing is this guy storming in your face to sell you Space Marines.

Another store, the one that's shut down, went through some troubled history. When I found it, it was staffed by a guy basicly stuck in the 90s. Heavy metal blasting all day, not orderly, not cleaned in ages and generally very unwelcoming, which is particularly bad since a lot of kids visited in the afternoon every day. Plus he himself appeared to have a bit of a drinking problem.
The second owner of that store was really cool, had a great vision and was generally beloved. Even offered to give a bit of discount for people who help him out once in a while when things went REALLY busy, since he couldn't get a full-time assistant at the time. Alas, he was replaced for reasons unknown.
The last owner was probably the biggest tool I've ever seen, completely mad with the "power" of leading a gaming store. As you can guess, he threw out a lot of people for disagreeing with him and the store barely survived a year or two longer.

The last store, which is the one I generally visit these days, is among the best over here. Great owner who's really engaged and "gets it" with nice, helpful staff, lots of table space (4 tables at 48x48 inches and 2 mini tables for small skirmishes plus 1 72x48er) and 6 seats for painters somehow crammed into a fairly small space and yet it works perfectly fine. The community is great bar maybe 2 or 3 idiots and one really feels welcome there.

The only store I don't like in my area is oddly enough, the actual GW store. They are always closed for 1-2 hours around lunch and dinner time, and he will close the store if nothing is selling. Even if people are playing a game of 40k they will boot people out if nothing is selling. I understand that its a business and they're there to make money but come on, the place is never open. I go to another LGS because they open at 10am and close at 10pm, everyday, even on holidays. I don't have to play a guessing game if they are open or not.

There is a store in Plainfield that charges for table usage asking like 5 bucks a person for 2 hour blocks. They do not allow outside food and drink in, but what they do have they charge an arm and a leg for. They carry very little in miniatures, instead preferring you have them order the stuff for you. A while back my friends asked them if they could run a Warmachine league, the store allowed ir, but required that the players pay to play every time and myst buy their models from the store only.

I was told I am banned from the store when I asked if I could sell back a book for store credit. I informed the clerk I did not buy it from them, but said it was cool. I even accepted to take half the value of it so they could resell it and makes profit. He changed his mind after agreeing to do it. I was later told by a friend he decided to ban me for it two years later.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
A store that has no open play...unless you pay 300$ a year, even then you are not guranteed your table
A store that buys tons of the same models, Clearences the rest, then never buy more because it was a "Bad seller"
A store where they dont carry any diverse product, Then get mad when you buy models online.
A store whose owner insults, belittles and bemoans his community
time for another store
A Store where it would be a great place.....if it was orginized and cleaned and they got rid of all the recycling cans in bags in the back and dusted the shelves

Heh. Are you in the East bay area? I think I know the store you are talking about.

Yup. It was the 300$ thing wasnt it?

Yeah - The owner is pretty legendary for being a top notch RPG vendor and a terrible miniature vendor. It wouldn't be so bad but he blames the players on a pretty public blog. This area doesn't have great miniature playing options until you head north to Fairfield.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I won't name these stores.

Store #1: This place had an owner with the worst kid ever. The kid was a short, fat, smelly guy that was just intolerably rude. He had friends over and they would set up his video games in the D&D room and play for hours, being loud and screaming at it- and keeping people from gaming there. These kids were all over the place in there, a dozen or so- and stuff would get stolen all the time. They guy would say it is a 'family store' and accuse people of hating children if they said something about the kids.

Store #2: Full of nothing but hipster 'activists' that sat around criticizing people, calling them 'rednecks' or 'right wing pricks', and using the game room like some kind of weird Social Justice Support Group. Only games they played were these weird indie hipster games and they never bought anything. Store owner never had the guts to make them leave, even as customers complained that they were sick of the snark. Once the ONLY people he had there were curly-mustached hipsters, the place collapsed financially and now it's a fat lady shoe store.

Store #3: The place would cater almost exclusively to Magic and Yugioh players. We had a small following of 40k and other games, and to try and support the guy- we'd order things to his store and pay a few bucks extra for him. Still he'd blow us off for the Card 'Tards. One night we had a bit of a squabble when the card players were demanding we give up the ONE 40k table that hadn't been used for card games. The next weekend, the guy was charging people to use the 40k table, $5.00 an hour.

Store #4: The place had ONE problem- a female 'player' that didn't so much as 'play',but stood around talking to everyone and trying to be the center of attention. She knew next to nothing about 40k, and the ONE time I know of that she played, she wandered off to talk to someone. It wasn't all her fault- a bunch of loser neckbeards showered her with models, praise, and otherwise hung all over her giving her the attention she craved- because she was a girl, and they all thought she liked them. The funny part is that she'd leave her 'gifts' in the store all the time. She was kind of 'cute', but really she was just obsessed with herself. If you were talking about something, she'd find some way to make it about herself. If you said something about her, the Obese White Knight squad would act like you'd done the worst thing ever. Eventually, she found something else and just left. And we made fun of her cult for months. The sad part about it is she was super catty with every other woman that was around, and her attitude and badmouthing ran them all off.

Store #5: The owner was too nice. We had some people with 'mental issues' that never showered or changed their clothes. Despite them being ill, it was still a problem that needed to be addressed. Because he lacked the guts to say something, he would just accuse people of being cruel and insensitive. It ran people off, and now it's just full of stinky people.

These are just a few. I'll remember some more soon.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it really sounds like you just dislike overweight people.

Nice store locally, clean, tidy, reasonable range of product for it's size. Intelligent, polite human store owner... completely taken over by a group of magic the gathering kids in their late teens/early 20s who stunk to high heaven and low hell, screamed, shouted, brought their own infant children in (in one instance actually just shoved the pram into a corner, leaving the toddler crying facing the wall so this cretin could play a card game), shat up the walls of the toilet to the point the owner no longer let them use it, sexually harassed girls and women including my wife until I showed up and offered to dissect the offender.

A total example of what could have been an excellent store, totally overrun with horrible smellies. Tourists would come in and loudly comment on the stench 'oooohhhhweeee someone needs a shower!'

And I'm sorry to say the blame lay with the owner, he was just too nice and too quiet to control the magic playing deep one spawn.

It lasted two years of him just collecting magic event fees after the RP groups left and the wargamers gave up very quickly because there was never a table.

I feel like I am fortunate enough to have had good game stores in the area.

There is one store that has been around for over 30 years around here and they kind of set the standard for the other stores who want to compete with them. So these other stores are also great and have a good selection of material. Even the worse store is still worth it because they will have a good selection.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it really sounds like you just dislike overweight people.

I loathe people who don't take care of themselves. Overweight far less so than stinking.

I unapologetically loathe them.

I even loathe their families and friends for not stepping in and doing something.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it really sounds like you just dislike overweight people.

I loathe people who don't take care of themselves. Overweight far less so than stinking.

I unapologetically loathe them.

I even loathe their families and friends for not stepping in and doing something.

I think there's a big difference between "could use more soap" and to the level of total lack of hygiene related to mental illness. If it really was that bad, I hope they got the help they need. I work in mental health on a walk-in basis and...yeah. We get some very pungent smells.

Had a good store turn into a mainly card-focused shop that sold some model kits but mostly Magic singles. The owners were two parents in their 20's with two small children - one infant and one toddler (3 or 4) who were practically feral because their parents completely ignored them all the time. The place smelled like urine (from the toddler's unchanged diaper and his habit of ditching the diaper to pee on the floor) and body funk from the card floppers.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I think there's a big difference between "could use more soap" and to the level of total lack of hygiene related to mental illness. If it really was that bad, I hope they got the help they need. I work in mental health on a walk-in basis and...yeah. We get some very pungent smells.

Diet plays a major role in stench. Most people who stink really bad are munching greasy chips, eating fast food, chugging soda, etc.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I think there's a big difference between "could use more soap" and to the level of total lack of hygiene related to mental illness. If it really was that bad, I hope they got the help they need. I work in mental health on a walk-in basis and...yeah. We get some very pungent smells.

Diet plays a major role in stench. Most people who stink really bad are munching greasy chips, eating fast food, chugging soda, etc.

Diet may play a role, but proper hygiene will take care of that. No amount of 'proper diet' will overcome a lack of showering and deodorant.

 Vulcan wrote:
Diet may play a role, but proper hygiene will take care of that. No amount of 'proper diet' will overcome a lack of showering and deodorant.

That's true. I'll stink if I don't shower and wear deodorant.

But Bob the Slob could spend two hours scrubbing his ass and wear the best deodorant imaginable, but because he has a bad diet the moment he starts sweating it's going to stink.

There are a ton of local stores in my area.

#1 Biggest store in the area, tries to carry a little bit of everything and it has a gigantic gaming area. Every other store tries to compete with this place since it's been around forever. However the staff are some of THE rudest "people" I have ever encountered.

I've tried throughout the years to be a paying customer, but it's extremely hard when the employees would rather be playing on their phones or just blankly stare at you while you have product in your hand. On numerous occasions they've said they can do preorders or order stuff for me if they didn't have it on the shelves, although they take your contact info they never tell you when it's come in and promptly put it on the shelf.

A lot of the player base that hangs out here are also pretty damn rude. Several of D&Ders would yell at the top of the lungs while playing. I also once saw one of the Infinity guys threaten to fight another player over dice and tokens.

I've talked to the owner several times while I was running tournaments for various games and that man acted like he was absolutely afraid of people or acted like he just didn't care about what you had to say.

#2 There's a tiny shop a bit closer with 8 tables, but it's a tiny hole with barely enough room to get around the tables. Most of the area's Warhammer crowd hang out here and heaven forbid if you're not part of their little clique as they won't even talk to you unless you're part of their clique or know someone who is. Strangely this store is mostly about comics though.

The owner never cleans this place and acts like a hoarder, most of the players spend a few days a month cleaning the place out for said owner.

#3 Even smaller little hole in the hole on the North side, but really great guy. No clue how he's open as this store is dead most of the time. It's really clean and friendly, but again it's small and only a few people frequent this place.


#4 Bigger place on the South side that's almost big enough to rival #1 and all of the staff is way more friendly.

Weirdly this place has no table space for miniatures and caters exclusively to card monkeys, and video game tournaments.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Diet may play a role, but proper hygiene will take care of that. No amount of 'proper diet' will overcome a lack of showering and deodorant.

That's true. I'll stink if I don't shower and wear deodorant.

But Bob the Slob could spend two hours scrubbing his ass and wear the best deodorant imaginable, but because he has a bad diet the moment he starts sweating it's going to stink.

I've generally found that to be more than a bit of an exaggeration. There's a hefty difference between the (granted, unpleasant) smell of fresh sweat, and the horrors of fermented and ingrained funk on the unwashed.

 Vulcan wrote:
I've generally found that to be more than a bit of an exaggeration. There's a hefty difference between the (granted, unpleasant) smell of fresh sweat, and the horrors of fermented and ingrained funk on the unwashed.

Oh, filthy unwashed stank is the worst by far.

But Healthy Hank and Bob the Slob are going to smell significantly different when they sweat.

Unless Healthy Hank is taking a bunch of supplements, which sometimes make people smell like dog poop when they sweat.

And with that, I think we're done here...