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Also their grenade launcher is literally a 1 point upgrade. Literally. A Krak isn't a Plasma Gun but it does have the beefy 30" range, and the Frag makes tackling hordes easier for Intercessors.

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 wounds for 20 or 2 wounds for 26. its pretty easy to see they are harder to kill. plus - you aren't factoring in the costs of their specials. Which I'm sure they are taking.

Unless they're targetd by 2+ damage weapons. Now being T4 means that those intercessors should be targeted by anti infantry weapons which tipycally cause 1D but if the opponent doesn't have tanks to aim at (and if you bring scouts and other infantries with no vehicles or just a few vehicles that would be a real scenario) those intercessors may soak the anti tank and they will be not durable at all. But there are also other weapons, that are not real anti tank tools, that affect them quite badly, orks big choppas or pks for example since green skins want to assault them anyway, or dark eldar disintegrators cannons, plasma cannons, etc...

I'd take tac squads over intercessors everytime. In fact there's not a single primaris unit that looks effective. Maybe hellblasters, but devastators can do the same job better.

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 wounds for 20 or 2 wounds for 26. its pretty easy to see they are harder to kill. plus - you aren't factoring in the costs of their specials. Which I'm sure they are taking.

That's 20 without the Hellblaster plasma-whatever though, yes? Because my comment was regarding the statement about Hellblasters, and the Index has them at 38 points per model after they pay for their weapon. I'm guessing that a Primaris marine with plasma-thingy is not 20 points.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 wounds for 20 or 2 wounds for 26. its pretty easy to see they are harder to kill. plus - you aren't factoring in the costs of their specials. Which I'm sure they are taking.

Unless they're targetd by 2+ damage weapons. Now being T4 means that those intercessors should be targeted by anti infantry weapons which tipycally cause 1D but if the opponent doesn't have tanks to aim at (and if you bring scouts and other infantries with no vehicles or just a few vehicles that would be a real scenario) those intercessors may soak the anti tank and they will be not durable at all. But there are also other weapons, that are not real anti tank tools, that affect them quite badly, orks big choppas or pks for example since green skins want to assault them anyway, or dark eldar disintegrators cannons, plasma cannons, etc...

I'd take tac squads over intercessors everytime. In fact there's not a single primaris unit that looks effective. Maybe hellblasters, but devastators can do the same job better.

Hellblasters and I'd say the Redemptor, but I'm just in love with the model so I might be biased.

And I'd say that while they're not better than other choices, they're not completely ineffective for the most part. they're just not straight upgrades to e.g. Tac Squads or Devastators.

Xenomancers wrote:the job you want tacticals to do is done better by practically every other unit in the marine codex.

First, this is inaccurate. But assuming it was correct just for the sake of argument, it still wouldn't apply because we're discussing troops options. None of which can do what I'm asking of my Tac Squads.

 wtwlf123 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:the job you want tacticals to do is done better by practically every other unit in the marine codex.

First, this is inaccurate. But assuming it was correct just for the sake of argument, it still wouldn't apply because we're discussing troops options. None of which can do what I'm asking of my Tac Squads.

You're not forced to take Troops though. If you want the OS so bad, I explained why Scouts are the best choice in a long winded post I made from my darn phone.

And I explained in several long posts why I prefer Tac Squads to Bolter Scouts with s single special weapon.

And I want to take troops. Not just to satisfy a Battalion detachment, bot also to have access to ObSec.

If you don't like 'em, don't take 'em. But nothing I've read in this thread has come close to showing that 2x special Tac Squads in Razors can be freely swapped out for Scouts or Intercessors while maintaining an identical battlefield role.

Scouts and Intercessors are both solid, and they both have their place. But being a straight like-for-like replacement for Tac Squads isn't one of 'em.

..........

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to explain your take on troops choices. It's always good to read other folks' interpretations on what they like to field. All the best man. And rock on. Slayer is kick ass, and they put on a hell of a live show.

I can replace them right now. Watch:
X5 Scouts
. 4 Shotguns or CCW, Combi-Plasma
X5 Scouts
. 4 Shotguns or CCW, Combi-Plasma
X1 Razorback
. Assault Cannon
X1 Razorback
. Assault Cannon

Now the Razorbacks don't have to move anyone, so they're always firing at full effectiveness. The Scouts will be in position to get their weapons off the first turn. Easy as that. Not difficult to understand outside the people that ALWAYS defend Tactical Marines.

They lose a lot that way too. If they were 2 Tac Squads instead, they'd have twice the number of special weapons, and they'd be more survivable. In addition to providing a delivery system for my matching HQ choices to ride with them, giving me a 3rd matching special weapon so they can be effective at tackling the types of units I decide to have them engage with. And deploying inside allows me to deploy 3 units at the same time, helping me go first, so my footslogging troops don't get lit up when I go second.

Again, all the best. Thanks for sharing your opinion. I simply don't agree with it. We'll have to agree to disagree and move on. Cheers.

It's not that hard right ?

Scout for deployment mobility and being cheap./ or character pressure.

Interecessor for doing nothing but being alive backline/ or slogging mid table.

Tac for vehicle mobility + support fire. / agressive rush.

Depending on your list you pick one of those.

The problem with that assessment is that I don't find tac squads capable of aggression in general.

I see them as more of a counter aggression unit. Jumping out of a transport, shooting two plasmaguns, and possibly charging a unit can damage it enough to slow the momentum of an enemy unit. And you have to chew through 5 marines, which probably takes an entire turn, or fall back and be useless.

Martel732 wrote:
The problem with that assessment is that I don't find tac squads capable of aggression in general.

Who is more capable than them in the troop choices ?

I find it also depends on the roll your giving the tacs and what chapter tactic you have.

In my salamanders force I go with 3 or 4 squads of tac Marines, srg with combi flamer and a Las cannon. Their job is to create an area of protection for other big things like my whirlwind, my predator, or my dev squads so that nothing can teleport / deep strike in near my things I want protected (getting hit once by a trygon with 20 genestealers in its tunnel was the only time I needed to be taught that lesson). The chapter tactic works better on tacticals than devs because all 4 Las cannons get the rerolls vs the dev squad only getting one weapon getting it. The flamers are there for the free shots on the inevitable charge or to make my opponent at least think of trying for a 9" charge to keep out of flamer range. Auto hit over watch is never to be ignored.

Will these guys "earn their points back" killing enemy units? Probably not. Not their job. Will they help hold objectives? Ones near my deployment zone yes, but their not there for moving around. I take either assault troops or terminators or some bikes and some land speeders to deep strike or zoom up the board to grab objectives as I need them to. The idea is to hold the line, wait for the opponent to move towards me and focus on their ranged weapons as best as I can, then when a part of their force starts to Crack or gets out of position move in for the exploite.

It's worked for me so far. And it let's me use all the marine models I already own lol. (BTW, I don't have any rhinos or razorbacks at the moment, they were lost in moving apparently......)

There are lots of 2 damage weapons in the game. The majority do 1 damage though - at least anti infantry. If they shoot anti tank at your infantry - that's a win. Typically I am brining some armor though so - no chance of 2 damage weeps going on my intercessors.

I get it - you don't want to buy new models. You think the primaris marines look stupid. Or you don't feel like painting another army. Those are all very valid reasons not to use them. I always feel kind of bad when I play marine players who use tactical marines. They tell me what's in their army and I'm like "man - there's really no way I can lose this". OFC I only bring the best stuff because I play in a pretty competitive environment. There are always a few people bringing tac squads though.

Just a little side note here. I think the best use of a tac squad is to take 2 5 mans in a rhino with 2 storm bolters with no specials. The idea here is to use them to go after enemy infantry and slow stuff down - not to kill things.

I have access to Scouts, Tac Squads and Intercessors in my playgroup. Tac Squads have been performing the best on the table so far. It's not about availability for me, it's about using what I feel gives me the best chance to win. And my Tac Squads have been outperforming Scouts and Intercessors ...and it hasn't been particularly close.

Occasionally I'll take a squad of Sniper Scouts or a lone min squad of Intercessors, but it's way less often than the situations where I find myself wanting 2x special-weapon Tac Squads in Razors.

They're all different, but Tac Squads have been the best options for me so far in 8th edition. But as everything in 40k, YMMV.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just a little side note here. I think the best use of a tac squad is to take 2 5 mans in a rhino with 2 storm bolters with no specials. The idea here is to use them to go after enemy infantry and slow stuff down - not to kill things.

I could see that working rather well. That's 24 bolter shots plus another 8 from the rhino for under 200 pts.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
They lose a lot that way too. If they were 2 Tac Squads instead, they'd have twice the number of special weapons, and they'd be more survivable. In addition to providing a delivery system for my matching HQ choices to ride with them, giving me a 3rd matching special weapon so they can be effective at tackling the types of units I decide to have them engage with. And deploying inside allows me to deploy 3 units at the same time, helping me go first, so my footslogging troops don't get lit up when I go second.

Again, all the best. Thanks for sharing your opinion. I simply don't agree with it. We'll have to agree to disagree and move on. Cheers.

They don't lose that way. I'll sum up my long winded post:
1. Rhino + The Tactical Marines with two weapons is 140ish
2. Two scout squads doing that is 130ish
3. You don't need the Rhino to not die. You just deploy the Scouts and fire at the target you want handicapped.
4. Now I can just buy Razorbacks as attack tanks, because they are garbage as transports.

If I'm buying the Razorback and want to use it as a Transport, I get the most special weapons for the points using 5-man Tac Squads with 2x specials.

I've heard your argument over and over again, and I simply don't agree with it. 5-man Scout squads with specials give me less special weapons for the points if I'm going to be buying Razors anyways.

And please, please stop ignoring all the aspects of using the Razors as transports that I've posted again and again in this thread. I want them to be able to deliver my special weapons where I want them, without leaving my guys exposed to gunfire, while also simultaneously delivering their matching HQ choice with them. And being able to move them more effectively around the battlefield to secure objectives and position myself to accomplish Tactical Objectives as they arise. And I can deploy 3 squads for 1 slot, lowering my unit deployment count for the purpose of going first. Scouts simply don't give me the ability to do all that. Period.

No matter how you elect to take Scouts, I'm going to be missing out on important aspects of the Razor + 2x special-weapon Tac Squads. They aren't a viable alternative in the role I'm using them in.

Scouts aren't bad. Intercessors aren't bad. But they're different from Tac Squads, and they can't do what I use my Tac Squads for.

To be fair, at 20 points a pop intercessors are damn fine targets for plasma guns, plasma cannons and grav. Better than firing those weapons at T7 targets and much better than T8.

Plasma cannons in particular will become more common, they are a good counter to primaris in general, especially aggressors.

Agreed, Imo plasma is the built in counter to Primaris, and Grav is not too popular now, but the more Primaris hit the table the more Grav you'll probably see.

Spoletta wrote:
To be fair, at 20 points a pop intercessors are damn fine targets for plasma guns, plasma cannons and grav. Better than firing those weapons at T7 targets and much better than T8.

Plasma cannons in particular will become more common, they are a good counter to primaris in general, especially aggressors.

grav is rare because it sucks.

Forgive me if I missed something, but isn't it entirely possible to throw scouts with a combi sarge and a heavy bolter in a razorback? They're infantry. They're not on the list of things a razor can't carry. A special and a heavy in a 5 man squad is about as good as 2 specials, and for cheaper. Right?

Then you could even give the non-special scouts shotguns for close encounters. Throw a power fist on the sarge, all for like 80 points or so.

Yes, you could do that if you wanted to. It can't really specialize in the same way that a true 2x matching special squad can, but it is a thing you can take.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Yes, you could do that if you wanted to. It can't really specialize in the same way that a true 2x matching special squad can, but it is a thing you can take.

I'm never really sure what people mean by specialize in this context. Thematically, I get wanting to have plasma with plasma, but specialization is about capability, not armament.

Observe:

Weapons assumed to be wielded by a space marine scout:

Heavy Bolter (stationary) 36"
Kills 0.667 MEQ/ turn

Heavy Bolter (moved) 36"
Kills 0.5 MEQ / turn

Plasma Gun 24"
Kills 0.37 MEQ / turn

Plasma Gun 12"
Kills 0.741 MEQ / turn

So when it comes to killing MEQ, the only time the plasma gun pulls noticeably ahead is at 12 inches, where it manages to kill a whole .2 more of a marine in a round of shooting. The heavy bolter actually does better while stationary at 24". And that's not even taking into account the range difference.

I've never been a huge believer in the supremacy of plasma guns in any edition, though.

Compare that to something you might be tailoring your plasma guns to attack though, like Primaris, and the numbers grow by quite a bit. When you specialize, you can use the squad to attack the target they're ideal against, and you don't want to mix weapons together that specialize at dealing with different targets ...since you'll often find yourself either out of position or firing weapons into a target that the gun isn't good at dealing with.

"Specialize" in this context means using a unit to combat the opponent's unit that it's the most effective at fighting. And using Melta to attack armor compared to that HB will look quite different.

You are not accounting for the plasma overcharge.
It allows plasma to take good chunks of wounds out a vehicle and make a mess out of 2W heavy infantry.

Also, grav cannon doesn't suck, grav gun does.

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
Forgive me if I missed something, but isn't it entirely possible to throw scouts with a combi sarge and a heavy bolter in a razorback? They're infantry. They're not on the list of things a razor can't carry. A special and a heavy in a 5 man squad is about as good as 2 specials, and for cheaper. Right?

Then you could even give the non-special scouts shotguns for close encounters. Throw a power fist on the sarge, all for like 80 points or so.

Thank you, this whole thread Ive been trying to see if Ive missed something obvious on why Scouts not only dont unlock the razor, but also cant ride in it. If all you want are cheap dudes hidden in a rhino/razor, Scouts can do that too this edition.

I say this prefering tactical models, but I keep grugingly putting other troops in my lists instead.

Of course you can, but ...why would you? Again, you're losing out on the ability to take matching special weapons, and losing on survivability to boot. Downgrading my 2nd matching weapon to a Heavy Bolter and turning my 3+ save into a 4+ save isn't worth the ~10 points I'm saving. And it still doesn't accomplish what Tac Marines are used for anyways, since without at least two matching specials riding around together, you can no longer task that squad to reliably tackle the targets you're sending them at.

I dont, except possibly as deployment count control. Im just saying that the ability to take and sit in a transport has been touted as one of the tacs main advantages and scouts have the same ability.