Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A 3+ armour save with 5++ against shooting only really doesn't cut the mustard when you have only 3-4 models in your army. Knights have always been prone to focus fire but you could mitigate it with good positioning with the 4++ before, not to mention how mortal wounds can just r.i.p. through knights (4 zoanthropes spamming mind lance inflicted 17W in one turn)

An increase to a 2+ would probably be all you need.

Winter Warfest here in Brisbane happened about a month ago. 40 players with 3 Imperial Knight lists entered, 1 came top 10, another top 5, last was first place.

They're fine.

They seem really good and they don't have thier Relics and Strategems yet.

If they had a relic or something that improved the saves/inv saves within X" is all they really need.

How did Zoanthropes inflict 17MW in a turn?

 Eldarain wrote:
How did Zoanthropes inflict 17MW in a turn?

Unit of 4 Zoanthropes can manifest 2 powers and gets an additional D3 for the smite wounds. Theoretically they could do 2D6+2D3 if they got 11+ on both tests, for a maximum of 18 wounds. The odds of that are astronomically low however, and a freak occurrence isn't enough to say "Knights are bad zomg."

To get 17 wounds that's a probability of ((3/36)*(3/36)*(2/6)*(1/6)*(1/3)*(1/3))*100 =0.0042866941% chance. And that's not even accounting for Deny the Witch. Or the chance a Perils of the Warp explodes the first time and takes it down to 3 models and thus prevents the 2nd smite.

To calculate that was ((Test 1 being 11+)*(Test 2 being 11+)*(one D6 being a 5 or a 6)*(one D6 being a 6)*(one D3 being a 3)*(one D3 being a 3))*(100 to make it a percentage)

lol no they dont. Knights are really solid right now. They are not top tier, but by no means are they bottom of the barrel.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
How did Zoanthropes inflict 17MW in a turn?

Unit of 4 Zoanthropes can manifest 2 powers and gets an additional D3 for the smite wounds. Theoretically they could do 2D6+2D3 if they got 11+ on both tests, for a maximum of 18 wounds. The odds of that are astronomically low however, and a freak occurrence isn't enough to say "Knights are bad zomg."

To get 17 wounds that's a probability of ((3/36)*(3/36)*(2/6)*(1/6)*(1/3)*(1/3))*100 =0.0042866941% chance. And that's not even accounting for Deny the Witch. Or the chance a Perils of the Warp explodes the first time and takes it down to 3 models and thus prevents the 2nd smite.

To calculate that was ((Test 1 being 11+)*(Test 2 being 11+)*(one D6 being a 5 or a 6)*(one D6 being a 6)*(one D3 being a 3)*(one D3 being a 3))*(100 to make it a percentage)

Ah that is rather unlikely. Can one psyker even cast Smite twice in a turn? I thought the exception was only allowing the spell to be used more than once across your force not on each psyker?

They might have their own version of smite so they can is nid smite + normal smite, I'm guessing, but no if you wanna know how to play a night, just run as fast as you can to the enemy and charge. To get into combat, they are brutal and if you take the fist it's even better, killed something big? You become the Opera of motral wounds.

 Eldarain wrote:
Ah that is rather unlikely. Can one psyker even cast Smite twice in a turn? I thought the exception was only allowing the spell to be used more than once across your force not on each psyker?

If a psyker can manifest 2 powers, they can smite twice. A Unit of 4 Zoanthropes can manifest 2 powers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Ah that is rather unlikely. Can one psyker even cast Smite twice in a turn? I thought the exception was only allowing the spell to be used more than once across your force not on each psyker?

If a psyker can manifest 2 powers, they can smite twice. A Unit of 4 Zoanthropes can manifest 2 powers.

Psychic Phase - 2. Make Psychic Test - last sentence.

A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per turn.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Ah that is rather unlikely. Can one psyker even cast Smite twice in a turn? I thought the exception was only allowing the spell to be used more than once across your force not on each psyker?

If a psyker can manifest 2 powers, they can smite twice. A Unit of 4 Zoanthropes can manifest 2 powers.

Psychic Phase - 2. Make Psychic Test - last sentence.

A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per turn.

came here to post that

 Happyjew wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Ah that is rather unlikely. Can one psyker even cast Smite twice in a turn? I thought the exception was only allowing the spell to be used more than once across your force not on each psyker?

If a psyker can manifest 2 powers, they can smite twice. A Unit of 4 Zoanthropes can manifest 2 powers.

Psychic Phase - 2. Make Psychic Test - last sentence.

A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per turn.

Fair enough, so it had to have been two units then or it was a rules mixup. If anything this makes it even less likely to happen because you'd need two zoanthrope units and have them never die.

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:
A 3+ armour save with 5++ against shooting only really doesn't cut the mustard when you have only 3-4 models in your army. Knights have always been prone to focus fire but you could mitigate it with good positioning with the 4++ before, not to mention how mortal wounds can just r.i.p. through knights (4 zoanthropes spamming mind lance inflicted 17W in one turn)

An increase to a 2+ would probably be all you need.

Nah. Knights are ranking pretty well in tournaments, and one of the biggest complaints about them is that they're (still) non-interactive for your army elements that aren't good at hurting vehicles. Making them even better at ignoring small arms (and medium arms) fire would just make this issue worse. I think the real issue is that armies either have enough dedicated antitank to handle an all-knights army or they don't, and that can be kind of boring. So I'd be all for a thread about making 'knights more interesting to face, but they really don't need to be even better at ignoring most units in the game. ^_^

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:
A 3+ armour save with 5++ against shooting only really doesn't cut the mustard when you have only 3-4 models in your army. Knights have always been prone to focus fire but you could mitigate it with good positioning with the 4++ before, not to mention how mortal wounds can just r.i.p. through knights (4 zoanthropes spamming mind lance inflicted 17W in one turn)

An increase to a 2+ would probably be all you need.

Nah. Knights are ranking pretty well in tournaments, and one of the biggest complaints about them is that they're (still) non-interactive for your army elements that aren't good at hurting vehicles. Making them even better at ignoring small arms (and medium arms) fire would just make this issue worse. I think the real issue is that armies either have enough dedicated antitank to handle an all-knights army or they don't, and that can be kind of boring. So I'd be all for a thread about making 'knights more interesting to face, but they really don't need to be even better at ignoring most units in the game. ^_^

There isn't really a way to make an army made up of 3-4 models that are all basically the same more interesting to fight. It would be like fighting 10 stock tac marines. "Well... 3+ saves and bolters. Lets do this."

I think, more than any other force in the game, knights really shouldn't be their own army. They are a great LoW to supplement all kinds of Chaos/Imperium forces but thats about it. It's so dull to fight an army composed entirely of knights. And I cannot imagine the games are ever all that interesting for the knight player either. It's cool putting all the big toys down. But besides the novelty of that I just cannot wrap my head around it.

 Lance845 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:
A 3+ armour save with 5++ against shooting only really doesn't cut the mustard when you have only 3-4 models in your army. Knights have always been prone to focus fire but you could mitigate it with good positioning with the 4++ before, not to mention how mortal wounds can just r.i.p. through knights (4 zoanthropes spamming mind lance inflicted 17W in one turn)

An increase to a 2+ would probably be all you need.

Nah. Knights are ranking pretty well in tournaments, and one of the biggest complaints about them is that they're (still) non-interactive for your army elements that aren't good at hurting vehicles. Making them even better at ignoring small arms (and medium arms) fire would just make this issue worse. I think the real issue is that armies either have enough dedicated antitank to handle an all-knights army or they don't, and that can be kind of boring. So I'd be all for a thread about making 'knights more interesting to face, but they really don't need to be even better at ignoring most units in the game. ^_^

There isn't really a way to make an army made up of 3-4 models that are all basically the same more interesting to fight. It would be like fighting 10 stock tac marines. "Well... 3+ saves and bolters. Lets do this."

I think, more than any other force in the game, knights really shouldn't be their own army. They are a great LoW to supplement all kinds of Chaos/Imperium forces but thats about it. It's so dull to fight an army composed entirely of knights. And I cannot imagine the games are ever all that interesting for the knight player either. It's cool putting all the big toys down. But besides the novelty of that I just cannot wrap my head around it.

Partially agree. To me, the real issue is less with "sameness" and more with interaction. If I bring striking scorpions along with my fire dragons against a knight list, one of these units is barely going to contribute beyond hopping on an objective and maybe movement blocking a little. Against a swarm of marines, every unit in my army can probably reasonably contribute to stalling or killing some of the marines. Against knights, a big chunk of your army is probably making a lot of rolls to little effect or else sitting on an objective until the knights can be bothered to murder them.

Fighting all knights can be neat if you build a thematic list that is well-equipped to interact with the knights in some way, but the knights basically ignore huge swaths of a vanilla list. It's a similar issue to flyer-heavy army; it's easy to build an army where you're basically wasting points on units that aren't really playing the same game as your opponent. Blood letters? Have fun never assaulting any of those flyers. Dark eldar venoms? I bet you'll have a blast fishing for 6s against these knights. That sort of thing.