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Credit where it's due, MagicJuggler pitched something like this a while back, but I think the 8th edition rules make it easier to implement.

So snipers. 40k has a few versions of them, and most of them feel a little underwhelming. The rules for a given sniper weapon typically result in it being only occassionally more deadly than a bolter. The snipers themselves huddle together in squads, and you generally need to fire that squad several turns in a row to kill any character worth targeting. This can work well enough for the concept of a "rifle" squad that shoots at medium range with the intent of putting a couple shots into another squad, but it doesn't feel quite right for representing the lone assassin charged with taking out a key enemy.

So with that in mind, what do you think of the concept of a sniper character unit that packs more punch than the average sniper, is hard to target due to being a character, and actually does reasonable damage to enemy characters? Basically, moving sniper models one step closer towards being vindicaires. For instance, an eldar ranger might look like...

RANGERS
PL: X
Points: Y per model
Unit: Consists of 1 ranger. Up to Z additional rangers may be taken for X power level or Y points per model. Though taken as a single unit, each ranger is treated as its own unit during deployment and for the rest of the game.
Stats: As is. Maybe boost wounds to 2, but probably not.
Wargear:

Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -3, Damage d3, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy character. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 damage instead of d3.

And then give them their standard cover bonuses, deepstrike ability, etc.

So the intention is that, instead of having like, 5 guys plinking away at a comissar and hoping to roll 6 or simply poke enough holes in the comissar to eventually drop him, you have a single, shadowy figure taking time to line up a shot and then hopefully take out the comissar with a well-aimed bullet. Instead of huddling together in one place, the snipers set up in their own little areas and select their ideal targets. You'll generally only shoot a given sniper 3 times a game if he's aiming, but each shot will feel like it has a chance of meaningfully harming the guy he shoots at, and your opponent will have a reason to scurry for cover, keep his head down, etc. Being a character means that your opponent won't generally be able to shoot at a lone man hiding in the backfield due to the much more daunting army blasting him on the front lines, but it also means that a given sniper unit is easier to kill when you do get to shoot at him.

The strength on the sniper rifle is meant to let sniper rifles wound human-like models on 2s and superhuman models (like marines, 'crons, etc.) on 3's. I would expect a given sniper to go up in price considerably with changes like this.

Suddenly, snipers become a much more viable way of taking out characters, and they look cooler doing it. Thoughts?

I love this. It would also lead to some great "Enemy at the gates" action as the Snipers on each side balance goibg after each other with HQ hunting.

Balancing them would be tough but could be a great addition to the game.

I'd make a different suggestion.

Most 'Sniper' weapons have a bonus Mortal Wound that they inflict on a 6+ To-Wound.
I recommend first changing this to a 6+ to-hit, then using your 'Aim' mechanic, except that Aiming gives +2 on the to-hit roll, but cannot be using against models with the Flyer battlefield role.

It'd be a more across-the-board change, but I think it'd make it worth it.

(You could also do this to intentionally 'supress' enemy characters, forcing them to hide behind LoS blocking terrain to avoid getting popped.)

 Eldarain wrote:
I love this. It would also lead to some great "Enemy at the gates" action as the Snipers on each side balance goibg after each other with HQ hunting.

Balancing them would be tough but could be a great addition to the game.

Totally!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'd make a different suggestion.

Most 'Sniper' weapons have a bonus Mortal Wound that they inflict on a 6+ To-Wound.
I recommend first changing this to a 6+ to-hit, then using your 'Aim' mechanic, except that Aiming gives +2 on the to-hit roll, but cannot be using against models with the Flyer battlefield role.

It'd be a more across-the-board change, but I think it'd make it worth it.

(You could also do this to intentionally 'supress' enemy characters, forcing them to hide behind LoS blocking terrain to avoid getting popped.)

I'd be alright with a change like this too, though you get very different results. Being more likely to to do up to two damage (the mortal wound and maybe your normal wound) wouldn't be bad for going after things like runt herders and beast masters, especially if snipers are still taken in squads, but you're also never going to take out a model with 3+ wounds in a single shot from a carefully-aiming assassin. Not that expensive HQs should be easy/cheap to one-shot, but a squad of "riflemen" spending 6 rounds showering a target with shots has a very different feel from a lone assassin that may or may not take you out of the fight with one good shot.

What price point would you guys suggest for something like the ranger I posted above? I feel like 60 points might be in the right ballpark. He's unlikely to be targeted for most of the game unless your opponent deepstrikes with him in mind, and he has a non-zero chance of one-shotting an expensive character, but he's also relatively fragile and will only be firing 3ish shots in a given game.

I like it, snipers in 40k have never really given me the feel of marksmen with a high powered rifle... except for the Callidus (sp?) Assassin, and even then he hasn't really ever been remarkable in my opinion.

Edit. Vindicare Assassin haha. Not Callidus.

They exist. They are called the Vindicare Assassin.

I love the ideas here. So far, snipers in 40k are, to put it bluntly, pretty garbage. Well, perhaps with the exception of the Vindicare, but he's supposed to be a god among snipers, right?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -3, Damage d3, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy character. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 damage instead of d3.

I think instead of the above, I'd make the rifle even more potent against its intended target type. Something like
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -4, Damage 1, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy INFANTRY CHARACTER. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 mortal wounds.

Of course, we need to give the opponent a chance to counter that, so in fact, I'd not give the sniper the CHARACTER keyword. Instead maybe the model can only be hit by shooting on a 6+ and has 4++ with the invul inreasing to 2++ when in cover?

That already exists at least for imperium, vindicare

Snugiraffe wrote:
I love the ideas here. So far, snipers in 40k are, to put it bluntly, pretty garbage. Well, perhaps with the exception of the Vindicare, but he's supposed to be a god among snipers, right?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -3, Damage d3, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy character. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 damage instead of d3.

I think instead of the above, I'd make the rifle even more potent against its intended target type. Something like
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -4, Damage 1, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy INFANTRY CHARACTER. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 mortal wounds.

Of course, we need to give the opponent a chance to counter that, so in fact, I'd not give the sniper the CHARACTER keyword. Instead maybe the model can only be hit by shooting on a 6+ and has 4++ with the invul inreasing to 2++ when in cover?

Did you seriously just suggest giving someone a 2++ just for being in cover, as well as only ever being hit on 6s?

I think he did lol, not even the assassin's have that kinda saves

 JNAProductions wrote:

Snugiraffe wrote:
I love the ideas here. So far, snipers in 40k are, to put it bluntly, pretty garbage. Well, perhaps with the exception of the Vindicare, but he's supposed to be a god among snipers, right?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -3, Damage d3, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy character. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 damage instead of d3.

I think instead of the above, I'd make the rifle even more potent against its intended target type. Something like
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -4, Damage 1, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy INFANTRY CHARACTER. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 mortal wounds.

Of course, we need to give the opponent a chance to counter that, so in fact, I'd not give the sniper the CHARACTER keyword. Instead maybe the model can only be hit by shooting on a 6+ and has 4++ with the invul inreasing to 2++ when in cover?

Did you seriously just suggest giving someone a 2++ just for being in cover, as well as only ever being hit on 6s?

I did, didn't I?
Perhaps one OR the other?

Perhaps neither. If you want an eldar sniping character just copy paste the vindicare profile. Or make a differebt type of solitaire.

Snugiraffe wrote:
I love the ideas here. So far, snipers in 40k are, to put it bluntly, pretty garbage. Well, perhaps with the exception of the Vindicare, but he's supposed to be a god among snipers, right?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -3, Damage d3, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy character. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 damage instead of d3.

I think instead of the above, I'd make the rifle even more potent against its intended target type. Something like
Ranger Long Rifle: 36", Strength 6, Ap -4, Damage 1, Heavy1
-Special: Instead of shooting in the shooting phase, a model with this weapon may aim at an enemy INFANTRY CHARACTER. In the eldar player's following shooting phase, attacks with this weapon made against the selected character deal d3+3 mortal wounds.

Of course, we need to give the opponent a chance to counter that, so in fact, I'd not give the sniper the CHARACTER keyword. Instead maybe the model can only be hit by shooting on a 6+ and has 4++ with the invul inreasing to 2++ when in cover?

You know, it might not be terrible to just leave snipers with whatever defensive buffs they currently have and remove the CHARACTER keyword. It makes my proposed snipers easier to kill off/makes them more interactive. That goes a long way towards balancing out the concept of multiple models that can kill off characters in a single shot. Plus, having the option to focus on snipers in your first couple of turns is its own mind game. "Cease fire on their artillery! Scour those sharp shooters from their sniper nests! They're targeting our apothecaries!"

No Super cover or 4++ invuls needed. Just midling-cost models (maybe more like 40 points for the statline I pitched above?) that can be killed off but can also threaten your characters if you ignore them.

I'd be fine with restricting aiming to INFANTRY CHARACTERS. It makes sense that a sniper would have trouble landing an especially accurate shot against a guy zooming around on a bike. I think I also like the idea of leaving the unmodified damage of most sniper weapons at about d3 rather than 1 damage, however. It seems to me that a sniper round, even one fired relatively hastily, should pack enough of a punch to hurt something like a tyranid warrior or a biker a bit more than your average small arms. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
That already exists at least for imperium, vindicare

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Perhaps neither. If you want an eldar sniping character just copy paste the vindicare profile. Or make a differebt type of solitaire.

I suppose what I'm suggesting with this thread is to move snipers a step or two closer to vindicaire status without usurping them as the pre-eminent snipers that they are. A vindicaire should definitely be a more lethal assassin than, for instance, an eldar ranger or a ratling, but the "rifle squad" mechanics that we have for most sniper units these days just feel a little bit off. Marine scouts, eldar rangers, tau snipers, and even necron death marks all strike me as the types to spread out, pick their targets, and try to eliminate said targets with a single bullet. Having a bunch of dudes plinking away at one target at the same time, knowing that a single bullet is incapable of finishing off the target, creates a fluff/mechanics dissonance. At least, it does for me.

So in terms of fluff, it makes more sense to me to have guys spread out and meaningfully threatening a given model. In terms of mechanics, having the ability to up your damage against ideal targets and the option to eliminate or hide from lethal snipers before they fire offers more meaningful decisions and interesting interactions than what we have now.

Do you guys disagree?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Perhaps neither. If you want an eldar sniping character just copy paste the vindicare profile. Or make a differebt type of solitaire.

The eldar already have a sniping character, and entire sniper squads.

Hi Just some observations.
The Ranger Unit (5 Ranges) can take out a average 5wound character in one round just the probability is very low (0.05% yes but hay you might see it in like once in 500 games).
The Ranger Unit will take around 22.5 shots to kill a character (5w) so um did the game just end before the character is dead ?
Vindicare Assassin will take 2.6 shots to kill a character (5 wounds) so will kill at lest one and can kill a character in one round(the chance is 23%).
So you would need to take 2 Ranger units to impact a game (note to self if some one takes Rangers just ignore them).
So points wise Rangers probably need to be 9 points to have the same value as the Vindicare Assassin (this is assuming 2 units of Rangers (5*2) is equal to 1 Vindicar Assassin)

Why change the points not the rules.
Because the Rangers have 5 shots and so it is hard to get the same balance as the Vindicare Assassin with out blowing right past that and one shoting Characters.