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 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

Only other thing I can think of is that the mould degraded enough that a hairline formed in it that resembled another mould line.

I just got two boxes of Mordians from GW because they actually got them back in stock. A couple of them have outright bizarre artifacts in them. I'm guessing old moulds.

Personally, I've recast the turret part of a Razorback before, and I made a GS mould for a SoB backpack because I was missing one (back when I was actually considering Sisters). The Razorback one was literally just the round disc with the vertical support in it, and I use them on actual GW Rhinos. I wouldn't sell them though.

Sadly, that mould broke after the 6th or 7th one I made. Should have made a two-part mould, but it was the first try at it.

Yeah, mordians are just really old moulds.

They haven't made new moulds for them - and they date to mid 90s.

When it comes to remastering, it's not unheard of to make a "new" master from a 1st quality first pull should the original master be no longer available.

@Daedalus: You can get away with a single part mould for those pieces if you use a flexible enough rubber for it (in Australia, I'd use pinkysil,, which has enough detail retention for fingerprints but is flexible enough that you can pull that entire turret plate and vertical mount out as one piece.

With a less flexible rubber, yeah, 2 part is the way to go.

I personally use a very soft flexible silicone and it's great for doing 1 parters. Kinda spendy, and it degrades a little faster, but it's a really forgiving recipe and easy to use.

And these are the good posts for this thread. Thanks guys!

I've got an alumite putty mould kit that's been sitting in my craft box for a few months now. It's a binary putty mould; looks must softer than GS but harder than their standard issue silicone that you pour over a green. I've been saving it for some diamond plate bases I've been cooking up for the aforementioned Mordians though. Goal is to include slots for bases even for the HWS. I haven't quite wrapped my head around that yet, but I think it's a matter of time.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

No, it means they got lazy and didn't clean the mould lines off the master model before making a production mould from it.

Quote is broken.

I thought master models were "perfect" in regards to not having mold lines.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

No, it means they got lazy and didn't clean the mould lines off the master model before making a production mould from it.

Quote is broken.

I thought master models were "perfect" in regards to not having mold lines.

They are. You make your "master", then you make a "production master" from that. That 2nd gen model is used as the master model until it's worn out, and a new production master is then made.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Usually, double mold lines. And that certain details are warped and distorted. In truth, the only way you can spot some of them is to put them beside the real thing, often before they're assembled and painted. Once properly modeled, assembled, and painted- it can be harder to tell.

Not so.

The "Masters" that molds are made from are just pewter minis in the first place. You could use any pewter mini as the new master. It is the same with resin- they don't have to keep a green around forever, they just have to keep one of their resins casts to make more molds.

Ultimately, the process of illegally recasting minis can be exactly the same as legally casting the minis in the first place. If one caster does it at a significantly lower quality, then we can spot the lower quality- but that doesn't mean they're doing it illegally (I'm sure we've all had experiences with poor Finecast minis that were completely legit).


Tom Anders- the guy who runs Impact! miniatures-sold a few of his older Impact minis on ebay. He was once accused of recasting because there were some minor flaws (like some discoloration in the pewter). Of course, he was the guy who cast them in the first place, so he's possibly the only person not capable of pirating those minis.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

Sounds like a bone head ether lost a master or used casts to make a bigger spin cast mold and didnt bother to clean the first cast.

 Desubot wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

Sounds like a bone head ether lost a master or used casts to make a bigger spin cast mold and didnt bother to clean the first cast.

There isn't an essential difference between a production model and a production master. The production master is a 2nd gen mini (not the original green) and the idea is that it will eventually deteriorate from the strain put upon it by the process, and are then replaced by another run of production masters.


The screw up here is that he didn't clean off the mold lines from the one that he used to make the new cast (it isn't uncommon to use a master like this, but it is uncommon not to bother cleaning it very well before you do so). GW's quality control is not so great that they can't screw that up- and a recasting schlump can also take care to clean off the mold lines.

The only way to tell for sure that one is a fake is if it is cast in a material that the original was never cast in (like if a newer resin mini is cast in pewter, or a plastic is recast in resin). That's it! Mistakes happen, and they DO find their way into game stores. Often, you can get official replacements for minis that were cast terribly- but companies don't ask for the miscasts back (which means that the customer is free to use the screwed up minis- personally, I keep them for potential conversions).

Flawed casting in no way indicates whether or not your mini was cast by someone who owns the copyright to do so.

If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

SeanDrake wrote:
If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

Id say the caveat to this would be newer models.

I have Zero issues with new kits. but things that have worn out the molds will usually come really gaky.

This conversation is still going on?

I actually thought of an example where I identified a recast. It was with a Forgeworld Spartan. I saw someone had it on the tabletop and asked if I could pick it up. The real Spartan is pretty weighty, this one was extremely light.

The owner happily admitted purchasing it from AliBaba and that it was not Forgeworld. His opponent asked for the website so he could order one for his own army.

Getting back to one of the original questions, why would you want to know if there's a recast on the table? So you can figure out where to buy one yourself.

 techsoldaten wrote:
This conversation is still going on?

I actually thought of an example where I identified a recast. It was with a Forgeworld Spartan. I saw someone had it on the tabletop and asked if I could pick it up. The real Spartan is pretty weighty, this one was extremely light.

The owner happily admitted purchasing it from AliBaba and that it was not Forgeworld. His opponent asked for the website so he could order one for his own army.

Getting back to one of the original questions, why would you want to know if there's a recast on the table? So you can figure out where to buy one yourself.

The only people that truly care are those that are out for a witch hunt, those that feel like they have been cheated because some one else got a better deal, or those that want to know so they can them selves get recasts.

no one else would care.

SeanDrake wrote:
If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

Unfortunately this is a sad truth.

As a commission painter Ive had a lot of bad FW kits sent my way. But few things compare to last year, when I ordered a Warlord titan for a charity raffle. FW literally sent half the parts and no instructions. : /

Yes, they corrected it immediately and sent the rest, but still...its a Warlord titan. Make sure you ship the whole thing.

I've actually been very impressed with the cast quality of everything I've ordered from FW the past couple years.

The only issue I had with an order was when a blister was packed underneath a stack of HH black books and got crushed, causing damage to the blister contents. But otherwise I feel like they're doing a better job with quality than they did several years ago. *shrug*

 gorgon wrote:
I've actually been very impressed with the cast quality of everything I've ordered from FW the past couple years.

The only issue I had with an order was when a blister was packed underneath a stack of HH black books and got crushed, causing damage to the blister contents. But otherwise I feel like they're doing a better job with quality than they did several years ago. *shrug*

I feel like their shipping went to gak since it seems they switched to the UPS instead of FEDEX

Just had a massive order that had crushed indexs models and exploded paint pots. the paint was loose rolling around and got on stuff :/

^ Its odd because on the phone they are beyond helpful and polite, as though they have grown accustomed to complaints.

Just this past year Ive had issues with a Ta'unar, Mastodon, Warlord, and the absolute worst kit Ive ever encountered from anyone, anywhere, a Dark Eldar Tantalus.

Anyway, to be on topic, the age of 3D printing is coming faster than many might think. My Micron Solus 3D cost about $3500 with all of the equipment, and it prints at an astounding resolution. Gone are the lines or 'steps', its a smooth master model. All that needs to happen is a breakout in .STL's on site like cgtrader and recasting will take a new turn in the coming years.

 gorgon wrote:
I've actually been very impressed with the cast quality of everything I've ordered from FW the past couple years.

The only issue I had with an order was when a blister was packed underneath a stack of HH black books and got crushed, causing damage to the blister contents. But otherwise I feel like they're doing a better job with quality than they did several years ago. *shrug*

A lot of it is down to the massive mental inertia a lot of the wargaming fraternity seem to possess (ie "it once was thus, and so thus it shall always be")

I've not had an issue with anything I've ordered from FW proper, and I've certainly had recast stuff which I'd have taken FW to task over if I'd received it from them, but I think there's been a gradual refinement in technique with FW over time that means it's a crap shoot based on what kit you're ordering, and/or if the model has undergone revisions in its lifetime (such as moving the tracks of the Spartan from separate to integrated into the side pods.)

SeanDrake wrote:
If you want spot a FW recast It's pretty easy tbh. If you see a model with really bad slippage through awkward places or baddly warped flat surfaces or even that just does not fit together with gaps everywhere then that is a 100% geniune FW model.

Most recasters have better QC and more pride in what they do than FW. I have made 5 FW orders this year, 4 of them included models with missing parts or just the wrong model entirely. 1 of them included them sending me the incorrect missing part. 3 of them had parts that defective they had to send replacements.

FW are abysmal with QC and picking and packing also there customer service has dropped off a cliff with them taking 3 months to ship the correct missing part. (I was missing a contemptor shin and they sent me the 2 track sections and sides of a spartan)

I suppose professional recasters would have to have high QC otherwise people might try to out them out of spite.

The only spite here is Sean's post.

Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

Rumour has it that one chap used to actually clean and fix the models before casting, but he was shut down some time ago.

Equally, try and get an answer out of a recaster from any email that consists of anything beyond "give me these things, here's my money" and you've probably got worse than a 1 in 3 chance of a reply, less than that of actually receiving an answer to the question you asked after Google translate has got involved.

If you receive anything that's faulty beyond easily identifiable missing parts you're better off binning the model or working with it.

Buying recasts come with its own set of risks, challenges and drawbacks and trying to compare them favorably in terms of after sales to FW is just hyperbole. Which is the only language Sean seems to speak.

I could have gotten the same message without talking about Sean's spite. Given this is a 40k board, I consider talk of someone's spite to be weirdly complimentary, but just the same... let's not turn the thread into a flood of personal attacks.

So, wasn't Daniel Mandelbaum supposed to be recasting minis as part of Resin Forge? This is why I won't buy them, the shady characters involved.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I could have gotten the same message without talking about Sean's spite. Given this is a 40k board, I consider talk of someone's spite to be weirdly complimentary, but just the same... let's not turn the thread into a flood of personal attacks.

So, wasn't Daniel Mandelbaum supposed to be recasting minis as part of Resin Forge? This is why I won't buy them, the shady characters involved.

I remember that being one hell of a train wreck involving Resin forge selling "official bits" or something odd while also making an account here trying to defend them selves or something odd.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

As good, or worse. I've seen some truly awful recasts, way worse than anything I've ever bought from FW directly. Really brittle resin with tons of broken details, massive mold slip, etc. Maybe that would be ok if you just want the cheapest way to use some overpowered FW thing for your tournament list, but they were trash if you want a real model to paint.

Pretty sure when I bought a Hell Dorado figure (Ashoka, the big crocodile man) from the deepest depths of Russia it was a recast, as when it came it was a resin figure and I'm pretty sure the real thing is metal, lol.

I don't feel bad though, as the resin is super tough, and the casting was beautiful. And it's a figure that I really wanted for an RPG character but the model line went out of print and I trolled online stores and Ebay for months, never finding a single copy, and the suspected recast was the first I finally saw.

If it's indeed a recast GW needs to hire the guy as a consultant, because as a metal figure cast into resin it's about 200% better than the Finecast process.

Easy - saw it in half and see if it's yellow or gray.

But seriously, if the other guy puts even a fair amount of effort into cleaning mold lines and filling holes and gaps, and a decent paint job, it's going to be pretty difficult to spot.

I like the smell test - recast resins do tend to have a strong odor......at first. After a month or so, they don't smell at all, that I can tell.

One more thought - look for spikes or sharp edges, or more accurately, the lack of them. If a model looks like it's lacking teeth, points, spikes, what have you, it would be a bit suspicious - those are the hardest bits to get right.

Azreal13 wrote:The only spite here is Sean's post.

Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

Rumour has it that one chap used to actually clean and fix the models before casting, but he was shut down some time ago.

Equally, try and get an answer out of a recaster from any email that consists of anything beyond "give me these things, here's my money" and you've probably got worse than a 1 in 3 chance of a reply, less than that of actually receiving an answer to the question you asked after Google translate has got involved.

If you receive anything that's faulty beyond easily identifiable missing parts you're better off binning the model or working with it.

Buying recasts come with its own set of risks, challenges and drawbacks and trying to compare them favorably in terms of after sales to FW is just hyperbole. Which is the only language Sean seems to speak.

There are quite a bunch of recasters around. Some are pretty shady and operate such as you're describing. Others are highly professional, even if their English has still room for improvement.

Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Most recasters lob the kit into some silicone and make a cast straight out of the FW bag, you'll get as good a cast as they received.

As good, or worse. I've seen some truly awful recasts, way worse than anything I've ever bought from FW directly. Really brittle resin with tons of broken details, massive mold slip, etc. Maybe that would be ok if you just want the cheapest way to use some overpowered FW thing for your tournament list, but they were trash if you want a real model to paint.

Your anecdotical evidence means nothing.

No, no, I was talking about some of the most prominent and largest recasters with the most extensive catalogues. There's no implication of shady dealing, but to imply that the QC or after sales is on a par with FW when it simply isn't, for a variety of reasons, is just plain wrong.

Peregrine's evidence may be anecdotal, but one has to consider at what point the anecdotal evidence becomes so common as to simply be "evidence."

 Korinov wrote:
Your anecdotical evidence means nothing.

Then the anecdotal evidence of recasters that don't suck and sell you miscast trash is equally meaningless.

Does not matter much, it there army not yours.

And a good quality version from a China... Maybe not so easily.