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 DarkTraveler777 wrote:



I definitely understand the publicity aspect. Treating your work as "samples" of your abilities does make business sense.

But where I don't follow is the idea that a caster who is producing better quality versions of your casts is beneficial to you when that caster is selling your items without your consent or any sort of business arrangement. Are you suggesting you would be interested in striking up a business deal with them? When I think of illegal casting operations of the kind in China churning out GW and FW stuff, I don't really see them being open to partnering with an artist who they would have to give a percentage of their earnings to. They are pirating models for a reason i.e. low overhead.

And why would you want to get into business with an individual or organization that used an illegal means (grey or otherwise) to demonstrate their abilities? If they are casting and selling your models without your consent, what else might they be capable of? It doesn't seem like a good foundation to build a business relationship on.

You are correct in some respects; but many of the Chinese casters (just as an example) I think are still operating legally under the laws of their own county. I might be wrong though.
In either case, my interest at this point is simply in sharing my work with others.
I sculpt far more than I could ever hope to cast or even finish myself, so for me it would be interesting to see what direction other people might take my ideas!

I guess my point of view is that I would rather have my work shared and appreciated than gathering dust on a shelf.

I actually feel pretty entitled to buy wathever I want with my hard earned money, yes.

Even if is ilegal. I don't buy drugs, or other products that are much worse in the morality scale, like Coca-cola and how they are literally stealing water from Africa (A continent that we all know has clean water for everybody, yes) so in fact killing people so they can be sell at a affordable price for us, western customers.

So yes. I have no problems buying illegal copies of products from China if I don't feel the original price is correct. Normally I prefer to go to second hand, look for offers, etc... before going for the recast option, thought.
Why is people so willing to forgive when a Multinational do all kind of "grey" or literally "black" business decissions, because "At least they create jobs/They just want to make money"? But are to fast to blame the average Joe every time he does the same at a much lower scale with a much smaller impact in other peoples lives?

Now what. I have been honest. Did this make me some kind of anti-wargaming hobby monster? I'm gonna go to hell? Are you gonna win Wargaming hobbyst points pointing at me smiling and thinking "Look at that looser, he is KILLING this hobby. But no me, I'm a good customer!"?

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Guv, nobody in customs or the police cares enough about someone replicating toy soldiers to do drug raid style seizures of resin krack. Christ, they barely care when someone reports actual theft of thousands of dollars of models. I've never heard of a single recaster packaging stuff up in FW imitation bags, and out of probably over a dozen threads on the topic, you're the first to ever claim it that I've seen.

It's a valid corollary for conversation from the main subject though, I should think (namely how to spot a recast). So where did you hear/see that recasters were going to plastic bag makers and having imitation FW ones churned out? Can we get some pictures? If so, perhaps we can try and figure out how to spot fake FW bags as well.

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Dunno if you ever smelled the stuff but it could probably cause a seizure.

raw resin anyway painted and sealed no one would be able to tell ever.

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Guv, nobody in customs or the police cares enough about someone replicating toy soldiers to doing drug raid style seizures of resin krack. Christ, they barely care when someone reports actual theft of thousands of dollars of models. I've never heard of a single recaster packaging stuff up in FW imitation bags, and out of probably over a dozen threads on the topic, you're the first to ever claim it that I've seen.

Quite. The assumption that Customs Officers the world over know precisely what packaging our toy soldiers are meant to be supplied in is stretching credulity a bit. Doubly so when so many perfectly legitimate models ship in plain zip locks or other non-branded packaging.

It's a valid corollary for conversation from the main subject though, I should think (namely how to spot a recast). So where did you hear/see that recasters were going to plastic bag makers and having imitation FW ones churned out? Can we get some pictures? If so, perhaps we can try and figure out how to spot fake FW bags as well.

From a purchasing point of view, I've never once seen any of the Chinese recasters ever make any attempt to present their product as anything other than what it is (i.e. a knock off.)

They're priced accordingly, there are frequently disclaimers along the lines of "if you want perfect product go buy the original" and there's no attempt at all to present them in blisters or other appropriate packaging, with or without branding. Like I say, the only time I've got stuff in FW bags it seemed more like it was the nearest ziplock to hand and so my stuff got shoved in it over any attempt to present it as original.

Which is why it is advisable to be cautious using the word counterfeit in this context, as there is no attempt to pass the fake off as anything other than fake, whereas counterfeiting is generally contingent on an attempt to deceive the buyer. If you buy from a recaster, you will be in no doubt you are buying recasts.

Those that buy recasts and then knowingly try and pass them off as originals in resale are a different issue.

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures. I have more than enough information thanks. Supporting what others have said, the entitlement recast supporters feel is an obvious thorn. These products are not required to exist, it is just 'need and 'want' and 'greed' that supports this piracy. I do not see the need to continue to support my point in this thread.

Well congratulations, you proved that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with the "counterfeit seizures" line. This is a solid example of how it's better to keep your mouth shut and make people wonder than open it and confirm for them.

Even a counterfiet titan wouldn't be enough to catch any authorities attention.

As far as determining whether you are getting a counterfiet model, the FW bag and whether you get the printed instructions are usually two fairly easy ways to identify whether a model is legit or not. Contrary to RedSarge's claim I have never seen nor heard about a recaster taking the time to print out labels for the bags they package the models in and I have also never seen, nor heard about a recaster taking the time to photo copy and include the printed instructions that come with most legit FW models. Of course a reseller could have always lost them over time but if you do get the bag with a label and instructions you can be fairly sure that it is legit.

 Galas wrote:
I actually feel pretty entitled to buy wathever I want with my hard earned money, yes.

Even if is ilegal. I don't buy drugs, or other products that are much worse in the morality scale, like Coca-cola and how they are literally stealing water from Africa (A continent that we all know has clean water for everybody, yes) so in fact killing people so they can be sell at a affordable price for us, western customers.

So yes. I have no problems buying illegal copies of products from China if I don't feel the original price is correct. Normally I prefer to go to second hand, look for offers, etc... before going for the recast option, thought.
Why is people so willing to forgive when a Multinational do all kind of "grey" or literally "black" business decissions, because "At least they create jobs/They just want to make money"? But are to fast to blame the average Joe every time he does the same at a much lower scale with a much smaller impact in other peoples lives?

Now what. I have been honest. Did this make me some kind of anti-wargaming hobby monster? I'm gonna go to hell? Are you gonna win Wargaming hobbyst points pointing at me smiling and thinking "Look at that looser, he is KILLING this hobby. But no me, I'm a good customer!"?

This. I consider many generally accepted as Good companies to actually Have Shady As Hell Business Practices (nestle, coca cola, anything to do with making clothing in sweatshops).

I could do all the recasting of stuff myself, and I have done such for my personal greenstuff conversions in the past, or for dark eldar blaters that cost $10 each on eBay, but from my own experience why would I want to do that and produce a fairly bad quality reproduction when I can just pay someone else to do it for me? Does it somehow become morally respectable when I do it myself and it is worse quality and costs me more time and money?

So, we're back to the overwhelming sense of entitlement pirates seem to have in abundance. I want it, and don't want to pay the price cause it's just so unfair that someone else decides what their work is worth

Oh man, this sentence was the kicker of the thread IMO. What someone else decides their work is worth? Well depending on one's personal philosophy the market determines the worth, not the person making the product.

In fact this is something that's even in econ 101 textbooks, when suppliers set their price too high there's demand that can be fulfilled by someone supplying for less. This is exactly what's happening.

Of course it's quite clear this isn't about economics or facts but how much smug condescension can be fit in one thread, so I'm out.

How to spot a recast on the tabletop?

If it is painted: you cannot.

I will also echo that at that point it is not a concern.

Purchases have been a matter of convenience for me, so the ethics of all this I pretty much am able to stay out of.

I have bought fakes by accident in the past, and I try to avoid doing that. Quality is important to me, and even though quality control doesn't appear to be a priority at FW, at least I can expect to receive replacements for missing, miscast or broken parts.

The only upside to recasts is the price, but you have no consumer rights and you could just be wasting your money on garbage.

 Zingraff wrote:
I have bought fakes by accident in the past, and I try to avoid doing that. Quality is important to me, and even though quality control doesn't appear to be a priority at FW, at least I can expect to receive replacements for missing, miscast or broken parts.

The only upside to recasts is the price, but you have no consumer rights and you could just be wasting your money on garbage.

Not true at all. Most recasters have better QC than FW, will send out missing parts or replacement for unfixable parts at no additional cost. They also run sales, give out freebies, send you random not-perfect casts with your order and are more worried about receiving bad publicity for their product/service than GW/FW is.

Your always protected through Paypal if something goes wrong.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 Zingraff wrote:
I have bought fakes by accident in the past, and I try to avoid doing that. Quality is important to me, and even though quality control doesn't appear to be a priority at FW, at least I can expect to receive replacements for missing, miscast or broken parts.

The only upside to recasts is the price, but you have no consumer rights and you could just be wasting your money on garbage.

Not true at all. Most recasters have better QC than FW, will send out missing parts or replacement for unfixable parts at no additional cost. They also run sales, give out freebies, send you random not-perfect casts with your order and are more worried about receiving bad publicity for their product/service than GW/FW is.

Your always protected through Paypal if something goes wrong.

It's totally true. Re-read and look at what he said. That you have no 'consumer rights'. Which is true.

Well, my experience is only anecdotal, and unless I've bought directly from FW, I've purchased models and kits second hand on eBay.

If I was to make a complaint to Paypal over something I bought, best case scenario I get my money back, but I'd still be a model short.

I honestly don't know where you get your fake FW from, but I doubt the random recasters on eBay offer replacements. Those guys get shut down all the time, before they crop up again under different names, so it's not like they need to worry about their reputation.

They really do though. It's not simply a business thing, for the Chinese it's a cultural thing, they're desperate not to incur negative responses.

I'm not aware of "proper" recasters who sell through eBay though, they tend to be Russian or low level resellers/hobbyists that should know better.

The handful of sellers that are actually producing product (as opposed to buying it and then selling it on other platforms at a mark up) absolutely need to be aware of their reputation and absolutely do provide after sales support. There is a certain expectation that you know what you're buying and they're not going to replace every part with some small imperfection, but if something's FUBAR or missing, you'll get assistance.

 ScarletRose wrote:
Well depending on one's personal philosophy the market determines the worth, not the person making the product.

The market is not determining the worth of recasts, illegal recasters are. You don't have a legitimate market where "the market determines everything" applies when people are breaking the law to undercut the legitimate company's prices.

Copyright is intended to reward those who innovate or make the product you like.
It is to allow them to gain enough revenue to justify paying for new product to be developed.

It is a bit of a social contract that if you like product from someone, you buy from them.
Copiers are just opportunists able to sell because of the decreased overhead of you know, not contributing to new product.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
Well depending on one's personal philosophy the market determines the worth, not the person making the product.

The market is not determining the worth of recasts, illegal recasters are. You don't have a legitimate market where "the market determines everything" applies when people are breaking the law to undercut the legitimate company's prices.

Don't be daft. If the recasters price their product too high people won't buy it, either because any morality issue ceases to be outweighed by the advantages in cost, or because the convenience of more widely available official product offsets the same savings. Plus they're in competition with one another.

Any situation where product is offered for sale from more than one source and the consumer is under no obligation to buy from one or at all is subject to market forces, and those forces heavily influence price.

As for the comparison between recasting and media piracy, no, it isn't a reasonable comparison to make.

The driving force behind most media piracy was genuinely the lack of digital distribution options. As people spent more time on our computers and/or phones we wanted options to get our movies/music/etc there, and there wasn't a good legal option. If you wanted music on your computer you pirated it. But once the legal digital sales options appeared interest in piracy crashed, even though prices remained the same. Sure, a few people continued to pirate everything because they were poor or just because they could, but it turns out that most of the former pirates wanted to buy legally and picked piracy as a last-resort option.

The driving force behind buying recasts is indisputably entitled people who expect cheaper prices. Outside of a few edge cases like buying a recast of a finecast "model" (which is impossible to buy legally) recasts are clearly the inferior product. They're harder to find, have much longer shipping times, have questionable casting quality, and have unreliable customer support at best. The only point they win on is price, and only because they're able to cut out the expenses of a legitimate seller by ripping off someone else's work. By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't be daft. If the recasters price their product too high people won't buy it, either because any morality issue ceases to be outweighed by the advantages in cost, or because the convenience of more widely available official product offsets the same savings. Plus they're in competition with one another.

Any situation where product is offered for sale from more than one source and the consumer is under no obligation to buy from one or at all is subject to market forces, and those forces heavily influence price.

Sure, the prices between recasters are determined by market forces, but the price of recasts vs. the price of legitimate models has nothing to do with the market. Recasters aren't undercutting legitimate sellers because they're better at the market and have figured out a more desirable choice of price vs. sales volume, they're undercutting legitimate sellers because they rip off someone else's work and operate out of countries with zero IP enforcement.

 Peregrine wrote:
By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.

I would argue that The Entirety Of The American Consumer Base And All Corporations already fully believe "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them" and that claiming otherwise is silly.

Sure, the prices between recasters are determined by market forces, but the price of recasts vs. the price of legitimate models has nothing to do with the market. Recasters aren't undercutting legitimate sellers because they're better at the market and have figured out a more desirable choice of price vs. sales volume, they're undercutting legitimate sellers because they rip off someone else's work and operate out of countries with zero IP enforcement.

Which still doesn't validate what you said. They're operating in a different market, essentially, but are still subject to the same commercial pressures as legitimate producers.

It's a fallacy to assume they're operating in the same market, you yourself have just listed a laundry list of reasons why.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures. I have more than enough information thanks. Supporting what others have said, the entitlement recast supporters feel is an obvious thorn. These products are not required to exist, it is just 'need and 'want' and 'greed' that supports this piracy. I do not see the need to continue to support my point in this thread.

Well congratulations, you proved that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with the "counterfeit seizures" line. This is a solid example of how it's better to keep your mouth shut and make people wonder than open it and confirm for them.

Even a counterfiet titan wouldn't be enough to catch any authorities attention.

As far as determining whether you are getting a counterfiet model, the FW bag and whether you get the printed instructions are usually two fairly easy ways to identify whether a model is legit or not. Contrary to RedSarge's claim I have never seen nor heard about a recaster taking the time to print out labels for the bags they package the models in and I have also never seen, nor heard about a recaster taking the time to photo copy and include the printed instructions that come with most legit FW models. Of course a reseller could have always lost them over time but if you do get the bag with a label and instructions you can be fairly sure that it is legit.

Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? Before you decry me as a false fool maybe get your hands dirty.
The moment I opened up a package containing filthy, reeking dark grey Forgeworld models packed INSIDE Forgeworld baggies, the levels the recasters will go to became new.

I'm not stopping you, no one is. Go right ahead, As for the customs "scare" that was from a popular recast subreddit, the original buyer never did claim if they received there items after they were withheld.
The entire lot of recast supporters was in arms, worried there recast toys soldiers would be taken away. Again, I'm not stopping you. If I lived in England, I would support my locals just as I go out of my way to support Canadian endeavors. Yeah, I'm the guy who says "Yeah, and it's Canadian!"

 Desubot wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Dunno if you ever smelled the stuff but it could probably cause a seizure.

raw resin anyway painted and sealed no one would be able to tell ever.

I thought that would give someone a laugh! Add some levity to this stern thread.

 RedSarge wrote:

Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? Before you decry me as a false fool maybe get your hands dirty.
The moment I opened up a package containing filthy, reeking dark grey Forgeworld models packed INSIDE Forgeworld baggies, the levels the recasters will go to became new.

I can't quite figure if you're saying you bought Forgeworld from somewhere and got something you thought wasn't FW in a FW bag, or if you went to buy a recast and received it in a FW bag.

I mean, by your comments thus far I'd assume the former. But frankly, as the only case I've ever heard of, that sounds to me like FW either did a naff batch of resin, or a recaster had a spare FW bag handy from the original model and shoved it in there. If it were a common method, we'd have heard of a lot more cases of it, let alone this hypothesis you posited about recasters having fake bags made up.

I'm assuming that there's more evidence you haven't shared yet though?


EDIT:- After some sleuthing, I've managed to uncover a story of recast stuff coming in FW bags. But only one. So at the moment, I'm still inclined to think it's just a re-use of bags from stuff they bought to recast. Here's the picture.

I'm not stopping you, no one is. Go right ahead, As for the customs "scare" that was from a popular recast subreddit, the original buyer never did claim if they received there items after they were withheld.

I did some google searches using the keywords you gave. Won't post the results here, but literally all I could find was people panicking because their stuff got stopped by customs for a few weeks prior to getting an import tax label shoved through their door. Which is a 10% occurrence on practically anything from outside Europe. I had a friend buy a wig from South America the other day who had it happen. It sucks, because often it wipes out any discount you got from buying something abroad, but it's not quite the thing you're trying to portray it as?

I mean, let's be honest here. Customs officials don't generally get given the sort of extensive training that they'd need to pick recasts out.

It'd be great if they did though, can you imagine?

'Ahah! This Brass Scorpion is clearly not of Nottingham based origin! Steve, get over here! You ain't never smelt resin like this inside these borders! Get Kirby on the phone and tell him we've nabbed another one! We'll nail these immoral recast supporters and bring them to justice if it's the last thing we ever do!'

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.

I would argue that The Entirety Of The American Consumer Base And All Corporations already fully believe "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them" and that claiming otherwise is silly.

Exalted!

 RedSarge wrote:


Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? Before you decry me as a false fool maybe get your hands dirty.
The moment I opened up a package containing filthy, reeking dark grey Forgeworld models packed INSIDE Forgeworld baggies, the levels the recasters will go to became new.

I'm not stopping you, no one is. Go right ahead, As for the customs "scare" that was from a popular recast subreddit, the original buyer never did claim if they received there items after they were withheld.
The entire lot of recast supporters was in arms, worried there recast toys soldiers would be taken away. Again, I'm not stopping you. If I lived in England, I would support my locals just as I go out of my way to support Canadian endeavors. Yeah, I'm the guy who says "Yeah, and it's Canadian!"

I think it is safe to say that a significant number of people in this thread, including myself have ordered or had experience with recasters and you are literally the *only* one making the claims you are. And several of us are telling you that we have never experienced anything that you are claiming and cannot even find evidence of someone else (beyond maybe one incident where a recaster reused FW bags) who has experienced anything like you claim is the norm.

So: Have you ever bought recast before!? From Siberia? No! China? other parts of Russia? because you really don't seem to know what you are talking about and have maybe a single experience that you are using as a basis for how the entirity of a small industry works.

 Galas wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
By buying recasts you're saying "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them", and I give that argument zero sympathy. Any justifications are nothing more than self-serving rationalizations for why it's ok to do something illegal to save a few dollars.

I would argue that The Entirety Of The American Consumer Base And All Corporations already fully believe "I'm entitled to cheap prices no matter what I have to do to get them" and that claiming otherwise is silly.

I got a kick out of this, but it is kind of related to why I resorted to buying a recast of a superheavy about a year ago. I'd gone to buy it on the FW website legitimately, but discovered that it only came with one weapon option, despite having 2 in the profile. In order to get the second set of weapons, you'd have to purchase an entire second set with that option, as they didn't sell just the weapons kit separately. This bothered me enough to say, "screw this, that's not an okay thing to do," and set about finding a recast. And it is a good one, I still have it proudly atop my bookshelf. I'm not trying to justify my logic as ethical, but more to explain how I (and probably many others) got there.

I make casts all the time. I make them of weapons and wargear options. I do buy official kits, but I am not gonna buy two to three kits to create ONE unit. I also magnetize the options. I would consider bits if their prices weren't a 1/4 of the kit half the time. Seriously, who in their right mind pays that much for bits?

 NorseSig wrote:
I make casts all the time. I make them of weapons and wargear options. I do buy official kits, but I am not gonna buy two to three kits to create ONE unit. I also magnetize the options. I would consider bits if their prices weren't a 1/4 of the kit half the time. Seriously, who in their right mind pays that much for bits?

Things in demand with a limited supply will always be higher price.

thats pretty common sense.

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect.

It's very difficult, intellectually, for me to go to bat for a company getting their IP infringed when they've claimed in court that they own the IP for halberds, wings, roman numerals, skulls, lions, and the concept of space marines.

The recasters might be bad guys, but I definitely don't see GWS as the good guys.

 Galas wrote:
Now what. I have been honest. Did this make me some kind of anti-wargaming hobby monster? I'm gonna go to hell? Are you gonna win Wargaming hobbyst points pointing at me smiling and thinking "Look at that looser, he is KILLING this hobby. But no me, I'm a good customer!"?

Jeez such drama. No, you aren't an anti-wargaming monster. Again, my point is that people should just own their real reasoning and not give stupid excuses for justifying their support of illegal castings.

When asked why you buy pirated copies of anything, the only legitimate answer is "because it is cheap." What is obnoxious is when people try to justify their purchase by criticizing the pricing of the legitimate items, or griping that OOP collectors items aren't being made so no one is harmed when cheap knock offs flood the market. Those are bs excuses used to make the person feel better about doing something they know is, at best, morally ambiguous.

That is what I am calling out. The deflection. I don't care what you do with your money. Just don't give me a story about how you are justifying your actions in order to save some coin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect.

It's very difficult, intellectually, for me to go to bat for a company getting their IP infringed when they've claimed in court that they own the IP for halberds, wings, roman numerals, skulls, lions, and the concept of space marines.

The recasters might be bad guys, but I definitely don't see GWS as the good guys.

It isn't just GW and FW stuff being recast. That might be what most people are focusing on in this discussion, but the practice itself really feths up other areas of the hobby, especially the collecting side.

Battletech figures are notoriously easy to make cheap castings of and eBay has been flooded with them for years. That makes collecting some of the more sought after older figures extremely difficult and new collectors have paid good money for what they thought were legitimate castings only to find they had some lame tin casting from some dude's garage. Battletech is just one example, but recasts are not exclusive to GW games and they do have an impact on the secondary market.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

or griping that OOP collectors items aren't being made so no one is harmed when cheap knock offs flood the market.

I mean, the rest of what you say I shrug, because it doesn't affect me as I don't think I pretend reasons for myself to do what I do (and I also don't think I have any professionally recasted things) but I don't understand how you think this is some sort of case where one is justifying their bad behavior. There literally is NO other alternative if you want that product, for any price. You can't call that cheap, because there's no more highly priced alternative.

It seriously requires more mental acrobatics to conflate that into "cheap and pretending otherwise" than it does to just accept it at face value.