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 Hanskrampf wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
- Double Mold Lines
- Thin parts
- Squared edges are bowed inwards
- Anything square has a depression as the parts are not cast in high quality RTV silicone, often a cheap yellow or purple colored rubber mold. This can be described as concave depressions leading to all edges being peaked and sharp
- Transparent parts
- Horrible solvent smell that persist even after degreasing and washing
- Base material made from a different plastic than standard

All of this was already debunked in this thread.

Can we just lock it up?

I think we pretty much hit everything associated with recasts.

its probably time to lock it up so we can start a fresh one in a month or two.

A lot of piracy/recast arguments assume that purchases are a zero-sum-game. Just because someone bought something from a recaster does not mean they otherwise would have bought it from Games Workshop. If a recaster offers a $40 Super Heavy it does not mean that Games Workshop lost $150. A lot of people have a breaking point and would not make that purchase at $150 even if they did not have the recast alternative. Game of Thrones is a fantastic example for this since its release in 2011 to 2014 you had to purchase HBO from a cable provider in order to legally get access to Game of Thrones as its being released. Paying for cable and a premium subscription service on top of that was too expensive for lots of fans so they turned to piracy. HBO responded in 2014 by lowering the cost by offering a direct streaming service instead of clamping down hard on piracy. Once the cost went dramatically down more people purchased HBO accounts. Yes there was still lots of piracy, but I highly doubt the show would be as massively successful if it wasn't for people relying on stream sites etc over cable television from 2011 to 2014. To apply it to wargaming, our Start Collecting! boxes and bundles that don't suck are our cost reduction and they have been doing very well. In fact, some of the Start Collecting boxes are fairly cost competitive to recasting even before you take quality/convenience into account.

 Ketara wrote:

Process wrote:

Oh the irony; quite a few recasters supply models in forgeworld bags (and yes, i assume these are fake). And there is a way to spot them.

...............so would you care to, you know, enlighten us?

Okay, let me rephrase (since the above posts would indicate I wasn't entirely clear). How do you spot the fake bags? Everyone and their mum knows how to take a stab at guessing if a model is fake, it's the claims of fake bags I'm interested in. They're the new development. How do they differentiate from the FW ones? etcetc.

 Ketara wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Process wrote:

Oh the irony; quite a few recasters supply models in forgeworld bags (and yes, i assume these are fake). And there is a way to spot them.

...............so would you care to, you know, enlighten us?

Okay, let me rephrase (since the above posts would indicate I wasn't entirely clear). How do you spot the fake bags? Everyone and their mum knows how to take a stab at guessing if a model is fake, it's the claims of fake bags I'm interested in. They're the new development. How do they differentiate from the FW ones? etcetc.

The recasts I have gotten in FW bags are actual FW bags (I would assume) left over from the model the person made the cast from. Mine had a few holes punched in them though for some reason. Inside they had smaller unmarked zip bags for the little bits which weren't attached to sprue/gates. As to telling how they are not genuine on the table top after cleaning, gapfilling and painting, pretty much impossible.

DominayTrix wrote:
A lot of piracy/recast arguments assume that purchases are a zero-sum-game. Just because someone bought something from a recaster does not mean they otherwise would have bought it from Games Workshop. If a recaster offers a $40 Super Heavy it does not mean that Games Workshop lost $150. A lot of people have a breaking point and would not make that purchase at $150 even if they did not have the recast alternative. Game of Thrones is a fantastic example for this since its release in 2011 to 2014 you had to purchase HBO from a cable provider in order to legally get access to Game of Thrones as its being released. Paying for cable and a premium subscription service on top of that was too expensive for lots of fans so they turned to piracy. HBO responded in 2014 by lowering the cost by offering a direct streaming service instead of clamping down hard on piracy. Once the cost went dramatically down more people purchased HBO accounts. Yes there was still lots of piracy, but I highly doubt the show would be as massively successful if it wasn't for people relying on stream sites etc over cable television from 2011 to 2014. To apply it to wargaming, our Start Collecting! boxes and bundles that don't suck are our cost reduction and they have been doing very well. In fact, some of the Start Collecting boxes are fairly cost competitive to recasting even before you take quality/convenience into account.

Agreed with pretty much everything here. I've got some recasts and right now I'm giving GW oodles and oodles of money, far more than I have in the past. It seems to be working out pretty well for GW even given the recasting. I've bought a ton of Start Collecting! boxes as you note. I've got HBO to watch Game of Thrones instead of pirating it as you say too!

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


The recasts I have gotten in FW bags are actual FW bags (I would assume) left over from the model the person made the cast from. Mine had a few holes punched in them though for some reason. Inside they had smaller unmarked zip bags for the little bits which weren't attached to sprue/gates. As to telling how they are not genuine on the table top after cleaning, gapfilling and painting, pretty much impossible.

Most legit FW bags have holes in them as well (about the size of a standard notebook punch, usually still hanging on), in order to let the extra air out for packing.

 whalemusic360 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


The recasts I have gotten in FW bags are actual FW bags (I would assume) left over from the model the person made the cast from. Mine had a few holes punched in them though for some reason. Inside they had smaller unmarked zip bags for the little bits which weren't attached to sprue/gates. As to telling how they are not genuine on the table top after cleaning, gapfilling and painting, pretty much impossible.

Most legit FW bags have holes in them as well (about the size of a standard notebook punch, usually still hanging on), in order to let the extra air out for packing.

I was baffled as to why my Hierodule I got in a trade (came with FW bag and order note) had a hole bunch through it so it can't close

It struck me as odd why someone would hole punch it

The holes appear in the photograph I posted before. That might be an identifying feature of a fake bag? Or a recast at least. I can't say any of my FW bags have holes punched in them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
horrifying crime of forcing you to pick which weapon choice to use when you buy a model.

So I guess the fact that you have to buy 40 Kabalite Warriors in order to build a 5 man unit of Kabalite Trueborn is Totally Cool And Not A Problem?

If you don't like it then don't buy it at all. It might be annoying, but it certainly isn't a moral problem and it doesn't mean you're entitled to buy illegal recasts instead.

Which is why I don't buy GW at all.

Yep a win-win for GW there! By pricing their stuff far past any logical point, they have done their best for Reaper Miniatures. Mantic Games. Kromlech. Victoria.

Pretty much anybody that isn't GW.

Just because piracy is wrong (and I won't argue otherwise) does not mean that GW is right.

Pretending that GW is pure and above board is disingenuous at best. As pointed out - they tried to claim halberds, skulls, Roman Numerals, and grenade launchers as IP. During the Chapter House trial they tried to pretend that they made everything up 'out of their own heads' - then tried to prevent images of the old British Mk I tanks being shown to prove that, no... they outright stole as much as they could from existing sources.

The upcoming Necromunda is the first release in a long time that has me interested enough to actually give GW any of my money.

I kind of expect GW to mess that up enough that I will go another eight years without buying any of their games or miniatures.

The Auld Grump - as for Spots the Space Marine....

 Ketara wrote:
The holes appear in the photograph I posted before. That might be an identifying feature of a fake bag? Or a recast at least. I can't say any of my FW bags have holes punched in them.

The total absence of the adhesive label with barcode and product name is a good clue, as is the casters own reference written on the bag in neon pink marker! (That's not unusual either, I'm sure I've had a bag with that same shade of pink on it too, just can't remember from who.)

Possibly Rip Taylor? Was there confetti in the bag?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The holes appear in the photograph I posted before. That might be an identifying feature of a fake bag? Or a recast at least. I can't say any of my FW bags have holes punched in them.

The total absence of the adhesive label with barcode and product name is a good clue, as is the casters own reference written on the bag in neon pink marker! (That's not unusual either, I'm sure I've had a bag with that same shade of pink on it too, just can't remember from who.)

Lots of large Forge World models come in FW-branded bags with no label, inside the box. As with the actual recasts discussion, I can't see any way to tell from that photo whether those bags are genuine FW bags or if someone's gone to the effort of duplicating them.

 daedalus wrote:

Alternatively still, they might just be trying to save money. That really confuses me what with that we, for some reason, point at a corporation whenever they do something even vaguely shady, "bad", or anti-employee and say, "oh well, they have to do whatever they did because they HAVE to. They have an obligation to increase profit margins however they can", but then I see here that when we're talking about individuals, there becomes a function of morality present in the conversation. There are then values like "right" and "wrong" that are assigned to actions. I genuinely don't understand the difference. That could actually make me morally bereft or something. I don't know. Honestly, it's kinda probable, as I don't think I'd be that bothered by it even if someone did say I was.

I'm pretty much just reading the thread as a mildly interested observer, but I find this point really interesting. I'd not thought of it that way before.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's literally pennies worth of resin. Selling even two models at their current price is enough to pay for the sculptors time unless they are running a money laundering racket. But Forge World have cottoned on that this hobby has a rabid and less than intelligent fanbase (on average) who are willing to pay out the nose for said pennies of resin.

This is a bit extreme. We know that FW (and GW) make what can only be described as a healthy profit, but they do have a large infrastructure to keep running. You know, everything from keeping the power on to paying the land tax rates and paying the cleaner. It's not reasonable to expect to pay for "the sculptor's time" (and that's a lot more then 2 models!) and the raw materials and not much else.

On that point, the recasters are obviously making a healthy profit as well, yet I don't see people bitching about how the recasters are ripping off their customers with their high prices. How much does a recast titan cost? A couple of hundred bucks? Surely that's still a lot more than the raw material cost of the resin, and Chinese labour?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedSarge wrote:
I've been meaning to do an in depth exposure on recasting for some time on my blog. I've been away from the hobby for some time now and as a result my priorities have changed. Be sure the recasting of expensive models is s lucrative and persistent business

Not to be a dick, but please get someone to proof-edit it before you post it up. You keep using the wrong words and poor grammar, and like it or not, these factors do impact on your argument because they impact on readability and ability to fully comprehend what your points are - and by extension, your credibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

So my using the word "cheap" is a deal breaker but you can make a generalization relying on whattaboutism as a means to attack the other side? Oh, and you can't even give examples of what these "probable" misdeeds are, you just assume they are occurring in others as a way to justify what ultimately becomes a selfish drive to get something for cheaper than it normally costs. Forgive me if I find your outrage a bit disingenuous, especially considering your antagonistic tone throughout the thread, including calling for an imminent lock on page 2.

Clearly the implication is that pretty much everyone has downloaded or traded or played movies or TV shows or music or games without any moral quandries. This isn't restricted to downloading GoT last week, or even the days of Napster, but goes back decades - for me in the 1990s when I happily bought 90 minute blank cassettes to give to older friends who taped things like The Ramones and Dead Kennedys for me to listen to. I had quite the collection of pirated Amiga, PC and even PS1 games back in the day. Even Metallica got in on the act. Of course, there are always a few people who claim that they never did any of that, but copyright infringement in such a manner is so pervasive that pretty much nobody believes them when they make that claim. Of course, I *never* inhaled, but why would you believe me?

And again, "cutting the legs off the high horse" is such ridiculous speech, and is indicative to me that you feel what you are doing is "wrong" even if you want to try and argue that it isn't. I'd be more convinced by your convictions, and the convictions of others arguing your side of the position, if you all just owned it. Just say you want to save money. Don't argue that prices are too high, don't argue that this is a legal grey area, don't argue anything other than you want to avoid paying full retail price, or collectors prices, for models you feel entitled to. Because that is what it is. Entitlement. These being luxury items no one needs them, or is owed them. We just want them.

Here's a huge problem with your argument. It's the loaded speech in it. The discussion of "Entitlement" in particular. It would be more accurate to say that people buy recasts (or pirate games, TV, etc) (largely) because that's what they're willing or able to pay, and because they want the thing. Arguing "entitled" really weakens your argument, because that word really does have a significant meaning - and we do see some people making arguments that could be described in that way here. But to go back to my Ramones and Dead Kennedys or PC game or whatever examples. I didn't pirate those things because I felt "well, I should be able to have this without paying for it. music needs to be free, man!" or some bs like that. It was very much on a pragmatic level. I have this much money. I want that thing. I'll get that thing for this money. I suspect that the process is similar for more people than those who feel that they're "entitled" to anything. I'm entitled to health care because that's part of the democracy that I live in. I'm entitled to a certain quality of service from my cable/internet/whatever provider as I pay a predetermined fee for a predetermined level of service. I'm entitled to have all of the parts inside my FW orders in good order because i paid good money for them (and FW has great service, so they're good at fixing their mistakes). If I were to buy a bunch of recasts, then it'd be because I wanted this thing for that price. Not because I felt "entitled" to it.

Keep using the rest of your argument because it's valid. Stop using the word "entitled" as a broad motivation because you have no way to know or understand what other people's motivations are unless they tell you. Wanting to own a thing and wanting to save money doing it doesn't equal "entitled". It might be "cheap", but it's not "entitled".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures.

Counterfeit seizures?

Guv, nobody in customs or the police cares enough about someone replicating toy soldiers to do drug raid style seizures of resin krack. Christ, they barely care when someone reports actual theft of thousands of dollars of models. I've never heard of a single recaster packaging stuff up in FW imitation bags, and out of probably over a dozen threads on the topic, you're the first to ever claim it that I've seen.

It's a valid corollary for conversation from the main subject though, I should think (namely how to spot a recast). So where did you hear/see that recasters were going to plastic bag makers and having imitation FW ones churned out? Can we get some pictures? If so, perhaps we can try and figure out how to spot fake FW bags as well.

I think a reasonable point is that someone who doesn't buy a lot of recast stuff and isn't around it regularly probably doesn't know as much about how it's packaged as those who do buy it and are around it. People like to think they know more than they do, and it's often very bruising to the ego to admit that you're not as well versed in something as you think you are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

When asked why you buy pirated copies of anything, the only legitimate answer is "because it is cheap." What is obnoxious is when people try to justify their purchase by criticizing the pricing of the legitimate items, or griping that OOP collectors items aren't being made so no one is harmed when cheap knock offs flood the market. Those are bs excuses used to make the person feel better about doing something they know is, at best, morally ambiguous.

That is what I am calling out. The deflection. I don't care what you do with your money. Just don't give me a story about how you are justifying your actions in order to save some coin.

I'm not fussed about the "collector's market" argument for OOP models. I have no qualms about people buying recasts of unavailable models, and I'm a guy who (legitimately, if there was some confusion) owns quite a few limited edition, unreleased and otherwise unavailable models. It doesn't hurt me personally, and I think people who speculate on toy soldiers are the scum of the earth.

And we know that the pricing of legitimate items does have an effect on the desirability of recasts. Several people here have said that Start Collecting made buying recasts of certain models pointless because the legitimate models are now just as cheap/cheaper or close enough to the recast option. Presumably using discounters, but legit is legit. It's the Netflix/Steam Sale effect again. Ease of use and price at a certain level beats the hassle of piracy every time. I went through several years of pretty much boycotting new GW products and concentrating on classic stuff via eBay, secondhand stuff, and stuff from other manufacturers - both "proxy" models (Eisenkern, some of Mantic's stuff, AoW, Shieldwolf) and other games entirely (Bolt Action, KoW, X-Wing, etc) - and the odd FW purchase, given that FW prices compared favourably to AU retail(!). Now that Start Collecting and other value bundles are a thing (ranging from Death Masque to Gangs of Commoragh) I could build a cubby house big enough for me to sleep in using only Start Collecting boxes that I've purchased.

Price of the legitimate stuff matters. Whether you're talking about lapsed customers or people buying recasts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Good, because any attempt at ethical justification would just be a self-serving rationalization of your selfishness and lack of moral standards.

gak like this makes me laugh hard, though. Perspective, my friend. Perspective.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
- Double Mold Lines
- Thin parts
- Squared edges are bowed inwards
- Anything square has a depression as the parts are not cast in high quality RTV silicone, often a cheap yellow or purple colored rubber mold. This can be described as concave depressions leading to all edges being peaked and sharp
- Transparent parts
- Horrible solvent smell that persist even after degreasing and washing
- Base material made from a different plastic than standard

All of this was already debunked in this thread.

Can we just lock it up?

Yeah it's just going around in circles and since I have legit FW models with literally half of the above problems spreading more rumors like that isn't helping anyone. Not that Dakka is democracy but my vote is for a good locking also.

EDIT: Ignore this post, thought I spotted a flaw in the bags, but upon reflection, I think it was just my imagination.

Why are there so many requests to lock this thread? Am I missing something?

 B Stores wrote:
Why are there so many requests to lock this thread? Am I missing something?

Because every recast thread on Dakka degenerates into the same point / counterpoint echo chamber regardless of the starting topic

But couldn't that be said of any thread?
What is the point in having a forum, if things cannot be discussed?

(Not trying to be difficult; I'm new here. And humans confuse me at the best of times...!)

 B Stores wrote:
But couldn't that be said of any thread?
What is the point in having a forum, if things cannot be discussed?

(Not trying to be difficult; I'm new here. And humans confuse me at the best of times...!)

The problem is that the moderators are always locking the last thread.

Forums. Forums never change.


....

...until they do. Remember when Chapterhouse and Scibor and HiTech were the immoral parasites profiting off of GW's hard-built IP? Haven't seen that side of that argument in half a decade now.

I think it died about the time Games Workshop C&D'd 'Spots the Space Marine' and claimed they'd invented the grenade launcher in court.

 whalemusic360 wrote:


Most legit FW bags have holes in them as well (about the size of a standard notebook punch, usually still hanging on), in order to let the extra air out for packing.

The holes are to stop you (or a child) asphyxiating if you put it on your head. They tend to be present on most bags (ie carrier bags) where an airtight close isn't a necessary feature.

 B Stores wrote:
But couldn't that be said of any thread?
What is the point in having a forum, if things cannot be discussed?

(Not trying to be difficult; I'm new here. And humans confuse me at the best of times...!)

There is a certain thread with grenades in the YMDC forum that has existed for the last month that has only lived because people have said it should be closed. a bit ironic. The people still posting evidently don't care or are ,trolls.

 Azazelx wrote:
[

for me in the 1990s when I happily bought 90 minute blank cassettes to give to older friends who taped things like The Ramones and Dead Kennedys for me to listen to.

I know it was one DK album ( "Fresh fruit for rotting vegetables" comes to mind) that when released on cassette, had the album on only ONE side.
The other side had the inscription: "Home taping is killing the recording industry. This side left blank so that you can do your part."


Edit: It was actually "In God We Trust, Inc." and was "Home taping is killing the recording industry's profits ..."

 Azazelx wrote:
Wanting to own a thing and wanting to save money doing it doesn't equal "entitled". It might be "cheap", but it's not "entitled".

It does when the person in question feels that it's ok to resort to buying illegal recasts to save money. If they didn't have an entitled and selfish attitude, and merely wanted to avoid spending money, the response to the legitimate sellers saying "this is the price" would be to decline to buy and spend their money on something else from a legitimate seller. People who buy legal third-party alternative models for GW games, despite the lower quality and questionable WYSIWYG, are being cheap. People who buy illegal recasts are entitled and selfish.

So, how would you describe someone who is

looking for recasts of OOP models that are difficult to find "real" copies of, especially in decent condition.

Even if they

have to pay full FW-level price

Surely they're just as entitled as selfish, it's just rather than money, it's their time they're being entitled and selfish with as they're not willing to be patient and wait for one to come on to the secondary market, wouldn't you say?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 B Stores wrote:
But couldn't that be said of any thread?
What is the point in having a forum, if things cannot be discussed?

(Not trying to be difficult; I'm new here. And humans confuse me at the best of times...!)

There is a certain thread with grenades in the YMDC forum that has existed for the last month that has only lived because people have said it should be closed. a bit ironic. The people still posting evidently don't care or are ,trolls.

Ah, I see your point!

In that case I'll hush my mouth for now, and wait for a more appropriate thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, hell with it. How do you all feel about the idea of re-sculpting minis from the ground up?
That is, starting with the same basic concept but taking it in a different direction- any thoughts?

 chromedog wrote:


I know it was one DK album ( "Fresh fruit for rotting vegetables" comes to mind) that when released on cassette, had the album on only ONE side.
The other side had the inscription: "Home taping is killing the recording industry. This side left blank so that you can do your part."

I didn't even know Dorling Kindersley released a punk album! :p

Jeez, we get it. You're a purist and anything that isn't authintic British resin is a horrible crime against GW.

Anyways, really depends on what recaster you buy from in what your are going to get. You can go super cheap and get more bang for your buck and thats the stinky solvent smelling resin that often can have bad mold lines or slips. Then on the other end of the spectrum is the more expensive stuff that doesn't smell, and has better quality control than authentic FW. Those ones you'll never know, you can't tell. No color difference, no smell, noticable faults beyond what might plague a FW version (I'm looking at you Spartan tanks)

When it comes to little plastic or resin men and I dont care as long as the mini looks good and is painted well. Authentic, third party, recast pffft doesnt matter. We gonna play or not?

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, how would you describe someone who is

looking for recasts of OOP models that are difficult to find "real" copies of, especially in decent condition.

Even if they

have to pay full FW-level price

Surely they're just as entitled as selfish, it's just rather than money, it's their time they're being entitled and selfish with as they're not willing to be patient and wait for one to come on to the secondary market, wouldn't you say?

Looking for recasts of OOP models (or other cases of piracy/recasting/etc of products that the IP owner has abandoned) is more of a gray area, as even a customer who wants to buy legal copies from the original manufacturer is unable to do so. That's more comparable to the situation with media piracy, where many people would have been happy to pay for music downloads/streaming tv/etc if only it was available and immediately did start paying for it once the legitimate product became available. But that's not the case when we're talking about stuff that is in production and available to buy at any time, and people are just deciding that they're entitled to get it at a cheaper price.

Oh, ok.

Figures you'd make an exception for that.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Wanting to own a thing and wanting to save money doing it doesn't equal "entitled". It might be "cheap", but it's not "entitled".

It does when the person in question feels that it's ok to resort to buying illegal recasts to save money. If they didn't have an entitled and selfish attitude, and merely wanted to avoid spending money, the response to the legitimate sellers saying "this is the price" would be to decline to buy and spend their money on something else from a legitimate seller. People who buy legal third-party alternative models for GW games, despite the lower quality and questionable WYSIWYG, are being cheap. People who buy illegal recasts are entitled and selfish.

Nope. You're using the word wrong and injecting your own, clearly passionate and emotive beliefs into the whole argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, ok.
Figures you'd make an exception for that.

He's entitled to make exceptions for anything he likes. Of course, one of the other posters here riding the emotively moral high horse says those people are entitled because of the poor collector's market.