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Made in gb
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preston

 Melissia wrote:
Also IG veterans aren't Troops choices.

I know, but they where and they should be.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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 master of ordinance wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Also IG veterans aren't Troops choices.

I know, but they where and they should be.


. Vetersn where troops back in the previous editions due to the platoon construction format. IG players had a chocie troop wise of a large platoon, of bog standard infantry, or small squads of veterns. in this edition they aren't. I can follow the logic of "vets as elites" the PROBLEM comes in where you have Scions, whom can do everything veterns can but better. and are TROOPs.

I'm hoping that the new IG/AM codex addresses the issue, "regimental tactics and stratigiums" could be eneugh to make veterns a compeitive choice again.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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I'd either vote kroot or eldar guardians myself. Both are fragile and lacking in firepower, making them fairly pointless.

While I agree tac squads or their CSM counter parts aren't worth using, I don't consider them the worst. Which says a lot about how bad troops remain this edition.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tactical marines are fine if you are using them as a cheap unit to open up razorbacks - which are good. Keep them MSU late game objective grabbers - that can jump out and do fairly solid damage at 12" if necessary (or after the Razorback is destroyed).

Chaos Marines are worse because they lack Razorbacks and therefore lack any obvious gameplay niche.

I've always thought Guardians were bad - but right now their only purpose is to make Dire Avengers look even worse. But really one or the other should not exist. Its always been stupid to have units which are essentially the same. One will always be better than the other.

I can't work out if grots are that bad. Intuitively they are not great, but never seen anyone run them in strength.
   
Made in us
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Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

Why is tac squad being worst even a conversation? Tac marines can't be the worst, because Chaos Space Marine exist, and for as long as I've been a part of this game Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been worse.

My vote absolutely goes down with Grots. Not just for being worse than conscripts and cultist (even though they are), but they're worse that normal guardsmen. For one less point they have -1 to M, WS, T, S, and Sv (and then there's the 4 ld...) and a a gun not even worth talking. Funny, that NOW grot blastas are pistols when they've been 12" assault since 4th now that assault would have actually been useful. No synergies except with the runtherd, who his own set of problems (seriously, why does he kill 1d3 grots when a commissar only executes one dude?). Yes, the have Surprisingly Dangerous, but the 60 points to get that would be better spend on 10 boys who'd be better as a camping units if only because of t4.

Wyches I'd say are my runner up. It's one thing to be bad at something that's not your job or being okay for everything, but Wyches are actually bad at their job.

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Tyel wrote:
Tactical marines are fine if you are using them as a cheap unit to open up razorbacks - which are good. Keep them MSU late game objective grabbers - that can jump out and do fairly solid damage at 12" if necessary (or after the Razorback is destroyed).

Chaos Marines are worse because they lack Razorbacks and therefore lack any obvious gameplay niche.

I've always thought Guardians were bad - but right now their only purpose is to make Dire Avengers look even worse. But really one or the other should not exist. Its always been stupid to have units which are essentially the same. One will always be better than the other.

I can't work out if grots are that bad. Intuitively they are not great, but never seen anyone run them in strength.

Scouts unlock Razorbacks now. That argument doesn't work.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Springfield, VA

Yeah; to be fair, you could buy 40pts of IG infantry and unlock a Razorback if you're desperate.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah; to be fair, you could buy 40pts of IG infantry and unlock a Razorback if you're desperate.

Thought they had to be of the same faction.

Conscript Razorbacks here I come!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Lasblaster wielding corsair reavers.

18 points per model with a guardsman's defense and an assault 3 lasgun.

At least their other weapon options bring them down to 11 points, but it's things like that that make me glad we use power level around here.

   
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Springfield, VA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah; to be fair, you could buy 40pts of IG infantry and unlock a Razorback if you're desperate.

Thought they had to be of the same faction.

Conscript Razorbacks here I come!


They do to ride in it.

They don't just to have it in the army. You could have an IG army with 5 Infantry Squads, a Company Commander, and a Primaris Psyker for 270 points, and then take 7 razorbacks as the dedicated transports for said battalion because they all share the Imperium keyword.

The IG just can't embark.

EDIT:
It's worth noting that it's cheaper to take infantry squads to unlock razorbacks; conscripts are more expensive at their base squad size than Guardsmen are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/27 05:19:10


 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah; to be fair, you could buy 40pts of IG infantry and unlock a Razorback if you're desperate.

Thought they had to be of the same faction.

Conscript Razorbacks here I come!


They do to ride in it.

They don't just to have it in the army. You could have an IG army with 5 Infantry Squads, a Company Commander, and a Primaris Psyker for 270 points, and then take 7 razorbacks as the dedicated transports for said battalion because they all share the Imperium keyword.

The IG just can't embark.

EDIT:
It's worth noting that it's cheaper to take infantry squads to unlock razorbacks; conscripts are more expensive at their base squad size than Guardsmen are.

Probably easier to babysit with a Commisar and bubblewrap things in your backline with the Conscripts at that point though, especially if you were planning to buy an upgrade for those Infantry squads.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
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Italy

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

This I could kinda live with, but it looks real haphazard (like as if my nephew put them together), and that's really what Grey Hunters do, so we are kinda taking their unit entry which helps prove my point of why they work and Tactical Marines don't.

Also keep in mind they've never done anything BUT shoot, yet Grey Hunters always did both.


Grey hunters and blood claws work for SW because they're the only troops available since scouts are elites. And they have a decent synergy with as assault oriented army.

Grey hunters are tactical marines with +1 attack in close combat since they can have a chainsword for free but they can only take flamers, plasma guns or melta guns as shooty upgrades. No heavy weapons options. And they cost +1ppm compared to tactical marines. No SW player says they're among the worst troops in the game.

SM players are misguided by comparing their tacticals to other overpowered units in their codex, because they have a lot of broken options. Tac marines are not oustanding but far from being among the worst troops in the game.

Grey Hunters work because they don't actually HAVE that only option for the Heavy Weapon. The unit doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. You get two Special Weapons, a Combi, and 2 attacks on each model, and you usually Drop Pod them. Remember how I talked about the issue of loadouts for Tactical Marines being their ultimate issue? You can't even bother trying to camp Grey Hunters, as their options don't fool you into thinking you can accomplish that. Of course if they has the option for Lascannons, some people would insist on doing that even though Long Fangs would do that significantly better.

So no, nobody complained about Grey Hunters because they're actually decent.


Well just bring tac marines without heavy weapons then, they would even be cheaper than grey hunters and by the same logic they should be decent


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
"to other overpowered units in their codex, "

What would those be, exactly?


Rhinos, razorbacks, stormravens, guilliman. Some other units like devastators, scouts, predators, storm talons, etc... are not overpowered but very good/undercosted too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/27 08:09:17


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

This I could kinda live with, but it looks real haphazard (like as if my nephew put them together), and that's really what Grey Hunters do, so we are kinda taking their unit entry which helps prove my point of why they work and Tactical Marines don't.

Also keep in mind they've never done anything BUT shoot, yet Grey Hunters always did both.


Grey hunters and blood claws work for SW because they're the only troops available since scouts are elites. And they have a decent synergy with as assault oriented army.

Grey hunters are tactical marines with +1 attack in close combat since they can have a chainsword for free but they can only take flamers, plasma guns or melta guns as shooty upgrades. No heavy weapons options. And they cost +1ppm compared to tactical marines. No SW player says they're among the worst troops in the game.

SM players are misguided by comparing their tacticals to other overpowered units in their codex, because they have a lot of broken options. Tac marines are not oustanding but far from being among the worst troops in the game.

Grey Hunters work because they don't actually HAVE that only option for the Heavy Weapon. The unit doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. You get two Special Weapons, a Combi, and 2 attacks on each model, and you usually Drop Pod them. Remember how I talked about the issue of loadouts for Tactical Marines being their ultimate issue? You can't even bother trying to camp Grey Hunters, as their options don't fool you into thinking you can accomplish that. Of course if they has the option for Lascannons, some people would insist on doing that even though Long Fangs would do that significantly better.

So no, nobody complained about Grey Hunters because they're actually decent.


Well just bring tac marines without heavy weapons then, they would even be cheaper than grey hunters and by the same logic they should be decent


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
"to other overpowered units in their codex, "

What would those be, exactly?


Rhinos, razorbacks, stormravens, guilliman. Some other units like devastators, scouts, predators, storm talons, etc... are not overpowered but very good/undercosted too.

No they would NOT be decent because I outlined how Grey Hunters do everything better. Holy crap it's like you don't read posts.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"Rhinos, razorbacks, stormravens, guilliman. Some other units like devastators, scouts, predators, storm talons, etc... are not overpowered but very good/undercosted too."

I pretty much agree with nothing on that list. Stormravens are really good at killing stuff but you pay a LOT and they no longer count for tabling. Devastator undercosted? What? Predators? Predators suck.
   
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Jeese, all of you space marine players argueing for tacticals being the worst is a laugh riot.

Tactical marines are no by means the best troop unit...but they are no where near the level of crap that is the worst.

Wyches are the worst, hands down.

Runners up being Dire Avengers, Grots, Storm Guardians

I understand Dark Eldar aren't a highly played army, so maybe you guys havent experienced how bad wyches are,

but they are that bad.

Even at half their points cost they wouldn't be good.

   
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How much do they cost? Marines are paying 13 pts to do nothing.
   
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Springfield, VA

Martel732 wrote:
How much do they cost? Marines are paying 13 pts to do nothing.


Nothing? Wow. You must have literally brain-dead marine players.

Most tactical marines in my meta at least do more than literally nothing.
   
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Not at all. Think the other end. Everyone is so skilled vs marines and their forced generalist approach that they are trivial to neuter. Another way to think of it: whatever you try to do with tac marines, I've faced units in other lists that do it much better. So why would I be threatened?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/28 03:37:28


 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
How much do they cost? Marines are paying 13 pts to do nothing.


Nothing? Wow. You must have literally brain-dead marine players.

Most tactical marines in my meta at least do more than literally nothing.

That says more about your area than anything, as it sounds almost filthy casual. We're doing competitive gaming here and have statistics to back us up.

Remember the phrase PEDM and you'll be good. Math wins in the end.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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bondoid wrote:
Jeese, all of you space marine players argueing for tacticals being the worst is a laugh riot.

Tactical marines are no by means the best troop unit...but they are no where near the level of crap that is the worst.

Wyches are the worst, hands down.

Runners up being Dire Avengers, Grots, Storm Guardians

I understand Dark Eldar aren't a highly played army, so maybe you guys havent experienced how bad wyches are,

but they are that bad.

Even at half their points cost they wouldn't be good.


This seems like an exaggeration. A 5-woman unit of Wyches with +1 Atk from Combat Drugs, an Agonizer on the Hekatrix, and Hydra Gauntlets on one model expect to kill about 40 points of Marines when they shoot and charge. Currently this unit costs 53 points. If Wyches were 5 points each, the unit would cost 33 points. They'd almost make their points back by shooting and charging a naked Infantry squad at that price (and this isn't something they're even supposed to be good against given how many of their attacks don't care about toughness or re-roll wounds). And of course they also have a significant utility role in preventing enemy infantry from falling back. Wyches are not good currently, because they require a transport and DE transports aren't worth taking just for their guns, but I don't think it's plausible that they're 100% over-costed. I think I'd happily take them at 7 points apiece.
   
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You've seen wyches in competitive gaming?


A 5 man tactical squad with a special weapon and a combi weapon isn't bad. Its got decent firepower, can be specialized to be pretty good at a particular role. The various chapter tactics and objective secured also help.

65 points for a unit of 5, They can carry two good weapons, have good grenades, and at T4 and 3+ save they are fairly survivable, especially if they are in cover.

Are there better options in the codex, yes. Would you take them if you didnt have to, no. Would you be better off taking scouts, ya probably.



Let me tell you about wyches. They are 9 points each, (one point less than a genestealer, 3 points more than an Ork.

They have WS 3+, but are S/T 3 with one attack base and a 6+ save.

In close combat, offensively, they are slightly better than a guardsmen. (but cost more than twice as much)

Their pistols more often than not count as S3 rather than S4.

Combat drugs is a decent rule, but only 2 out of every 6 units can have one that is worth taking.

Their 4+ invulnerable save in combat is worthless now that they not only die to overwatch, they get shot to death by pistols.

Their only force multiplier option, The Succubus, cant fit in either of their two transport options without neutering the squads combat ability even further (by removing their ability to take special CC weapons)

You end up spending 100+ points on a unit that is supposed to be good at CC (it has no shooting potential) but in reality hits slightly harder than a unit of guardsmen and with worse durability.

An ork is better basically across the board for far less points. Compared to the similarly costed genestealer, the genestealers has the ability to charge after running, better S/T, double the attacks, a better save, AP -1, AP -4 on 6s.... Probably the best 1 point ever imagined.




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/28 04:06:30


 
   
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Die to Overwatch? 20 Bolters on Overwatch is 1.8 Wyches dead. That's nohting!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Dionysodorus wrote:
bondoid wrote:
Jeese, all of you space marine players argueing for tacticals being the worst is a laugh riot.

Tactical marines are no by means the best troop unit...but they are no where near the level of crap that is the worst.

Wyches are the worst, hands down.

Runners up being Dire Avengers, Grots, Storm Guardians

I understand Dark Eldar aren't a highly played army, so maybe you guys havent experienced how bad wyches are,

but they are that bad.

Even at half their points cost they wouldn't be good.


This seems like an exaggeration. A 5-woman unit of Wyches with +1 Atk from Combat Drugs, an Agonizer on the Hekatrix, and Hydra Gauntlets on one model expect to kill about 40 points of Marines when they shoot and charge. Currently this unit costs 53 points. If Wyches were 5 points each, the unit would cost 33 points. They'd almost make their points back by shooting and charging a naked Infantry squad at that price (and this isn't something they're even supposed to be good against given how many of their attacks don't care about toughness or re-roll wounds). And of course they also have a significant utility role in preventing enemy infantry from falling back. Wyches are not good currently, because they require a transport and DE transports aren't worth taking just for their guns, but I don't think it's plausible that they're 100% over-costed. I think I'd happily take them at 7 points apiece.


Aye but only 1 out of 6 wych units can take the +1 Atk drug.

But even so,
Compare 100 points of ork boys, wyches, and genestealers in combat against a 10 man tactical squad.

Orks (16)
Between shooting and charging will kill 6 of the Marines in one turn.
The Marines (4) fight back will kill 1.1
The Marines (4) shoot and kill 1.1
The Marines (4) fight and kill 1.1
The Orks fight back and kill the rest of the space marines.
The Orks win the combat before their next turn.
The Orks lost 18 points of models. The orks have the rest of the game to continue to fight other targets.

Wyches (11) (+1 attack drug)
Between shooting and charging will kill 3.7 of the Marines in one turn.
The marines (6) fighting back kill 1.3 wyches,
The marines (6) shoot and kill 2.2 wyches
The marines (6) fight and kill another 1.3 wyches.
The Wyches (5) fight back and kill 1.1 Marine
The Wyches (5) shoot and kill .55 marines.
The Wyches (5) fight and kill 1.1 Marine.
The Marines (4) Fight back and kill .88 Wyches
The Marines (4) shoot and kill 1.48 Wyches
The Marines (4) Fight and kill .88 Wyches
The Wyches (2) Fight back and kill .44 Marines
The Wyches (2) Shoot and kill .22 Marines
The Wyches (2) Fight and kill .44 Marines
The Marines (2) Fight Back and kill .44 wyches
The Marines (2) Shoot and kill .74 wyches
The Marines (2) Fight and kill .44 Wyches
The Marines win the combat after the entire game.


Genestealers (10)
Will kill 6 of the marines in first turn.
Marines (4) fight back and kill .88 genestealer
Marines (4) shoot and kill .88 genestealer
Marines (4) Fight and kill .88 genestealer
Genestearlers (7) fight back and kill 4.08 marines
Genestealers win before there next turn.
The Genestealers lost 30 points of models. They have the rest of the game to continue to fight other targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Die to Overwatch? 20 Bolters on Overwatch is 1.8 Wyches dead. That's nohting!


Flamers are a thing, but even ignoring overwatch they suck.

Compared to other CC troops they are vastly outmatched for their price

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/28 04:48:13


 
   
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bondoid wrote:
You've seen wyches in competitive gaming?


A 5 man tactical squad with a special weapon and a combi weapon isn't bad. Its got decent firepower, can be specialized to be pretty good at a particular role. The various chapter tactics and objective secured also help.

65 points for a unit of 5, They can carry two good weapons, have good grenades, and at T4 and 3+ save they are fairly survivable, especially if they are in cover.

Are there better options in the codex, yes. Would you take them if you didnt have to, no. Would you be better off taking scouts, ya probably.



Let me tell you about wyches. They are 9 points each, (one point less than a genestealer, 3 points more than an Ork.

They have WS 3+, but are S/T 3 with one attack base and a 6+ save.

In close combat, offensively, they are slightly better than a guardsmen. (but cost more than twice as much)

Their pistols more often than not count as S3 rather than S4.

Combat drugs is a decent rule, but only 2 out of every 6 units can have one that is worth taking.

Their 4+ invulnerable save in combat is worthless now that they not only die to overwatch, they get shot to death by pistols.

Their only force multiplier option, The Succubus, cant fit in either of their two transport options without neutering the squads combat ability even further (by removing their ability to take special CC weapons)

You end up spending 100+ points on a unit that is supposed to be good at CC (it has no shooting potential) but in reality hits slightly harder than a unit of guardsmen and with worse durability.

An ork is better basically across the board for far less points. Compared to the similarly costed genestealer, the genestealers has the ability to charge after running, better S/T, double the attacks, a better save, AP -1, AP -4 on 6s.... Probably the best 1 point ever imagined.

This simply doesn't read like an honest argument. You don't mention that Wyches actually get 2 attacks each. You don't mention that they have much better weapon options than Orks, being able to take 2 decent and cheap CC weapons in a squad of 5. You talk up Marine grenades and don't mention that Wyches actually have much better anti-infantry grenades. You don't discuss their synergy with transports (while making a big deal about their vulnerability to Overwatch). You don't mention that Genestealers actually cost 12 points. You would be more persuasive if you didn't seem to be trying to trick people into believing you.
   
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Genestealers are 12 in my index...unless I missed a FAQ



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, rending claws cost 2, my mistake

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/28 04:49:46


 
   
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I've been having decent success with Tac Marines. Always been a Salamander player and their new CT makes MSU Tac marines pretty effective. 90 points for an extremely efficient Lascannon (reroll to hit and wound with the CT) and 4 ablative wounds with light anti-horde capabilities.

Plop them in cover and the enemy force will need to dedicate a non-trivial level of fire power against them. Dedicated assault units are still a concern.

Counter balance them with some heavier presences on the board, and they are going to output a significant level of damage throughout the game.
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Nothing? Wow. You must have literally brain-dead marine players.
Pretty sure he has primarily his own experiences to draw from here, so might want to be a bit careful.

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Martel732 wrote:
How much do they cost? Marines are paying 13 pts to do nothing.

No. Now bolters can damage any unit out there.

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they would NOT be decent because I outlined how Grey Hunters do everything better. Holy crap it's like you don't read posts.


"Grey Hunters work because they don't actually HAVE that only option for the Heavy Weapon. The unit doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. You get two Special Weapons, a Combi, and 2 attacks on each model, and you usually Drop Pod them. Remember how I talked about the issue of loadouts for Tactical Marines being their ultimate issue? You can't even bother trying to camp Grey Hunters, as their options don't fool you into thinking you can accomplish that."

Forgive me, can't you equip tac marines with two special weapons and a combi? They would be identical to grey hunters with one lesser attack but 1pppm cheaper. Where's the big difference? Drop pods are also gone now, there's no reason to take them anymore, especially if you want to carry troops. SW tipycally bring units of 5-6 grey hunters with a single special weapon and eventually a combi in razorbacks and that single attack at S4 with no AP that tacticals don't have means 1-2 more dead orks in close combat, not a huge different and appropriate for a unit that costs 5-6 points more than a specular SM one.

You're basically saying that grey hunters are better because they don't have the heavy weapon option and players are not fooled into bringing them in a role that doesn't suit them. You can play tacticals in the same way: same weapons, same transports. Just don't equip them with that heavy weapon

The real reason why grey hunters don't look awful is that SW don't have the SM gimmicks, and nothing looks overpowered in their army, making feel their troops a solid option.

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Dionysodorus wrote:
This simply doesn't read like an honest argument. You don't mention that Wyches actually get 2 attacks each. You don't mention that they have much better weapon options than Orks, being able to take 2 decent and cheap CC weapons in a squad of 5. You talk up Marine grenades and don't mention that Wyches actually have much better anti-infantry grenades. You don't discuss their synergy with transports (while making a big deal about their vulnerability to Overwatch). You don't mention that Genestealers actually cost 12 points. You would be more persuasive if you didn't seem to be trying to trick people into believing you.


Not really seeing why its a trick. Is the maths wrong?

If you take the 5 man squad, one agoniser, one hydra gauntlet, take the +1 attack drug and a venom to avoid shooting at you get across the table, send the Venom in to avoid overwatch and then charge in turn 3 for the 2+ WS buff then yes, you can kill about 3 marines with combined shooting and assault.

This still doesn't seem like a major feat however for a unit which would have been wiped at any point it was outside the Venom if it targeted by 16 boltgun shots.

It might be worth it against an MSU tactical squad. Target anything larger though and you are likely to get bogged down beaten down. Lose the venom and have to eat the overwatch? More wyches are dead, even without a flamer.

Everything is in moderation though. If they were 5 points they probably would be worth spamming. I think comparing their melee attack to guardsmen is also a bit dubious.

And if you take multiple squads you can't get the +1 attack or strength ability on every unit.
   
 
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